Hi Forumers.
Tuesday morning dilemma here…
My eldest is going into Year 12 next year and due to underperformance in Year 11 the school wants him to sign a “contract” about his work next year.
I am all for setting SMART targets and writing them down, however I am not sure if the Associate Principals request that he write down 3 hours of study per night is achievable (30 mins for each of his six subjects).
Any advice regarding how to write that commitment?
Eg “I will review course notes each night and complete assessments, understanding that 3 hours per night is the recommended duration?”
Or – “…working up to 3 hours per night”.

I think 1-2 hours would be more likely to be achievable. He doesn’t think any of his friends do 3 hours and I think it is a lot (I asked him to find out what the best achievers at school do). 56 hours/wk school work for a 16 year old :(
I would rather the targets focus on assessments and exam revision (notes, memory recall over the semester). Maybe I should just talk to the AP or the year coordinator.

Advice please!

podzol said:

Advice please!

Add some clauses defining minimum required standards required from the school and teachers and get the principal to counter-sign.

Will teach your kid that contracts are between two parties.

Friends lie about the amount of effort they put in, always. Never trust what any of them say, unless they are failing as well…

Primarily homework should be intended for identifying what the student hasn’t understood. If a system can be developed that makes notes nightly regarding areas that need to be focussed on then that only leaves finding time to address these areas as important.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

podzol said:

Advice please!

Add some clauses defining minimum required standards required from the school and teachers and get the principal to counter-sign.

Will teach your kid that contracts are between two parties.

:) Excellent idea!

I had to look up SMART targets as I had forgotten what the R and T stood for:
“Goals should be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and timely. “

What is important here is your eldests education, keep focused on that.

Don’t worry what other students are doing just concentrate on helping the school get the best results for your son/daughter.

headsie said:

What is important here is your eldests education, keep focused on that.

Don’t worry what other students are doing just concentrate on helping the school get the best results for your son/daughter.

so they recommend the students do a six hour day at school then a further three hours after.. nine hours a day.. five days a week.. 45 hour weeks.. terrible pay.

sorry, didn’t mean to quote headsie’s post

Is it nitpicking to say that without a consideration it is an agreement?

Thanks everyone, good advice.

I wish the school would provide me with comprehensive notes (some teachers are doing this on the schools intranet MOODLE that I can access), examples of assessments and past tests/exams with answers.

Maybe I can get him to put that in the contract…

Skunkworks said:

Is it nitpicking to say that without a consideration it is an agreement?

I think it just needs a consequence for breaching it. Not sure what that will be… good point.

I would actually prefer to be involved with my sons homework, simply for the reason of having an intimate awareness of his progress

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I would actually prefer to be involved with my sons homework, simply for the reason of having an intimate awareness of his progress

I really want the info so I can discuss it with him.

I reckon 3 hours a day after school is doable, some high achievers do it, tiger mummies insist on it, but it is not for everyone. If your kiddie is not that way inclined 3 hours is a big ask and you may be setting yourself up for a fall. I would go to the start.

Is repeating year 11 an option, or going to another school? Year 12 is a desirable thing and essential for further study but I would be talking to the kiddie what they want to do. Interests may be in fields where year 12 is not required. Not everyone is into scholastic gear.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I would actually prefer to be involved with my sons homework, simply for the reason of having an intimate awareness of his progress

there’ll be plenty of time for you to do his homework for him…

Arts said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I would actually prefer to be involved with my sons homework, simply for the reason of having an intimate awareness of his progress

there’ll be plenty of time for you to do his homework for him…

I won’t do it for him. As long as he can name and describe what he is doing I should be satsified…..

Skunkworks said:

I reckon 3 hours a day after school is doable, some high achievers do it, tiger mummies insist on it, but it is not for everyone. If your kiddie is not that way inclined 3 hours is a big ask and you may be setting yourself up for a fall. I would go to the start.

Is repeating year 11 an option, or going to another school? Year 12 is a desirable thing and essential for further study but I would be talking to the kiddie what they want to do. Interests may be in fields where year 12 is not required. Not everyone is into scholastic gear.

This was a big discussion over the last 2 weeks. He really wants to stay. He is smart enough, just needs to be a bit more focused. He is really keen to succeed. I just want to make sure the targets are achievable/realistic.

Three hours is a lot. Push for 2 hours and break it up, so 1/2hr, ten minute break, 1/2 hour, 10 min break. It’s much more manageable plus he can also grab time whenever he can; before school, on the loo, talk to himself during a shower… This is all valuable study time. If he’s forced to do 3 hours a night, he won’t do it.

podzol said:

Skunkworks said:

I reckon 3 hours a day after school is doable, some high achievers do it, tiger mummies insist on it, but it is not for everyone. If your kiddie is not that way inclined 3 hours is a big ask and you may be setting yourself up for a fall. I would go to the start.

Is repeating year 11 an option, or going to another school? Year 12 is a desirable thing and essential for further study but I would be talking to the kiddie what they want to do. Interests may be in fields where year 12 is not required. Not everyone is into scholastic gear.

This was a big discussion over the last 2 weeks. He really wants to stay. He is smart enough, just needs to be a bit more focused. He is really keen to succeed. I just want to make sure the targets are achievable/realistic.

Sounds like TAFE or similar would be better for him. Had a few friends do that pathway instead, worked for them.

/internet opinion

Dr Karl already says that our teenagers are not getting enough sleep… http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/05/03/1913123.htm

I think that the issue homework may be related to the structuring of a school day. I don’t know how much sense it makes having 4-5(or whatever it is now) different subjects in a day. The kid gets swept from one time poor explanation to the next and then gets sent home to try to make sense of it all? still gives me the shudders

I do reckon three hours is on the high side.

dv said:

I do reckon three hours is on the high side.

seems like a case of passing the responsibility buck ultimately……..

Divine Angel said:

Three hours is a lot. Push for 2 hours and break it up, so 1/2hr, ten minute break, 1/2 hour, 10 min break. It’s much more manageable plus he can also grab time whenever he can; before school, on the loo, talk to himself during a shower… This is all valuable study time. If he’s forced to do 3 hours a night, he won’t do it.

The two high achievers in my year did about 3 hours each night (UAI/ATAR 99), the rest about 1.5-2 hours (UAI/ATAR 70-85).

poikilotherm said:

podzol said:

Skunkworks said:

I reckon 3 hours a day after school is doable, some high achievers do it, tiger mummies insist on it, but it is not for everyone. If your kiddie is not that way inclined 3 hours is a big ask and you may be setting yourself up for a fall. I would go to the start.

Is repeating year 11 an option, or going to another school? Year 12 is a desirable thing and essential for further study but I would be talking to the kiddie what they want to do. Interests may be in fields where year 12 is not required. Not everyone is into scholastic gear.

This was a big discussion over the last 2 weeks. He really wants to stay. He is smart enough, just needs to be a bit more focused. He is really keen to succeed. I just want to make sure the targets are achievable/realistic.

Sounds like TAFE or similar would be better for him. Had a few friends do that pathway instead, worked for them.

/internet opinion

also remembering that not getting the results in the end is not the end.

We have campuses designed just for yr 11 and 12 university studies. (they are for mature aged students. overseas students and students who dd not get the score they wanted to the first time around.) the beauty about these campuses is that all the superfluous subjects that the high school system has are gone… you focus purely on tertiary entrance subjects and it takes on a more ‘student responsibility role (with guidance)’ which are great skills for 16/17 yr olds

in hindsight, i wish i had spent 3 hrs a night on my school work. Thirty years later three hours a night for a year or two doesn’t seem an excesive price to pay for the benefits that would have resulted.

poikilotherm said:

Divine Angel said:

Three hours is a lot. Push for 2 hours and break it up, so 1/2hr, ten minute break, 1/2 hour, 10 min break. It’s much more manageable plus he can also grab time whenever he can; before school, on the loo, talk to himself during a shower… This is all valuable study time. If he’s forced to do 3 hours a night, he won’t do it.

The two high achievers in my year did about 3 hours each night (UAI/ATAR 99), the rest about 1.5-2 hours (UAI/ATAR 70-85).

Same in my year. Guess what I got for doing bugger all?

I’m basing the above advice on my experiences mentoring. People are generally trying to cram too much in (I’ve seen students doing 4 units at a time and inevitably they don’t do well in any of them) but taking every opportunity to stick your nose in a book is A Good Habit.

Arts said:

Dr Karl already says that our teenagers are not getting enough sleep… http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/05/03/1913123.htm

Have you seen how much caffeine they consume?

Arts said:

Dr Karl already says that our teenagers are not getting enough sleep… http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/05/03/1913123.htm

I doubt that it has much to do with homework

>>stick your nose in a book is A Good Habit

Like Bilbo.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>stick your nose in a book is A Good Habit

Like Bilbo.

I had the impression more and more homework was being done on pc’s…

dv said:

Arts said:

Dr Karl already says that our teenagers are not getting enough sleep… http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/05/03/1913123.htm

I doubt that it has much to do with homework

yeah… no-one ever stayed up to complete an assignment

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Peak Warming Man said:

>>stick your nose in a book is A Good Habit

Like Bilbo.

I had the impression more and more homework was being done on pc’s…

iPads.

Arts said:

dv said:

Arts said:

Dr Karl already says that our teenagers are not getting enough sleep… http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/05/03/1913123.htm

I doubt that it has much to do with homework

yeah… no-one ever stayed up to complete an assignment

I am going to guess a lot more time is spent on social media than on homework…

STOP THE PRESS!!!

I’d actually tell the school to jam it. A legal contract is not binding on a 16 yr old. If they want to ensure an arrangement they should make it with you.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

STOP THE PRESS!!!

I’d actually tell the school to jam it. A legal contract is not binding on a 16 yr old. If they want to ensure an arrangement they should make it with you.

Depending on the type of school, they can ask them to leave in that case.

dv said:

Arts said:

dv said:

I doubt that it has much to do with homework

yeah… no-one ever stayed up to complete an assignment

I am going to guess a lot more time is spent on social media than on homework…

I agree… adding three hours of homework to that will surely cut into sleep.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

STOP THE PRESS!!!

I’d actually tell the school to jam it. A legal contract is not binding on a 16 yr old. If they want to ensure an arrangement they should make it with you.

If you really wanted to stick it to the school you could pull your kid out of school and get them a job at maccas.

poikilotherm said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

STOP THE PRESS!!!

I’d actually tell the school to jam it. A legal contract is not binding on a 16 yr old. If they want to ensure an arrangement they should make it with you.

Depending on the type of school, they can ask them to leave in that case.

It is against the law to duress a minor. Plain and simple. If they want an arrangement they need to make it between legally responsible parties. They are overstepping their authority to act in any other way.

Maccas is actually a very good training ground for future careers.

Arts said:

dv said:

Arts said:

yeah… no-one ever stayed up to complete an assignment

I am going to guess a lot more time is spent on social media than on homework…

I agree… adding three hours of homework to that will surely cut into sleep.

Or, you know … they could cut down on social media…

one imagines we’re not getting the full story here…

I doubt the school would waste their time with this sort of thing unless there was a real issue here, either with the kids behavior, or something else not being discussed.

perhaps the school feels the subject choices the child is making is beyond the ability of the child, with the level of effort being shown in year 11..

Riff-in-Thyme said:

poikilotherm said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

STOP THE PRESS!!!

I’d actually tell the school to jam it. A legal contract is not binding on a 16 yr old. If they want to ensure an arrangement they should make it with you.

Depending on the type of school, they can ask them to leave in that case.

It is against the law to duress a minor. Plain and simple. If they want an arrangement they need to make it between legally responsible parties. They are overstepping their authority to act in any other way.

lol

poikilotherm said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

poikilotherm said:

Depending on the type of school, they can ask them to leave in that case.

It is against the law to duress a minor. Plain and simple. If they want an arrangement they need to make it between legally responsible parties. They are overstepping their authority to act in any other way.

lol

You think it is a joke to promote double standards?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

You think it is a joke to promote double standards?

ie, everyone has to obey the law except for those who are in charge?

No comment.

Dropbear said:

one imagines we’re not getting the full story here…

I doubt the school would waste their time with this sort of thing unless there was a real issue here, either with the kids behavior, or something else not being discussed.

perhaps the school feels the subject choices the child is making is beyond the ability of the child, with the level of effort being shown in year 11..

Even if there is an issue with the childs performance, how is this a measured response? If he has issues with comprehending 3 hours there is a reason. Most likely would be that he loses focus with so many different subjects to wrap his head around. More effort should be put in by his mentors to identify where he is falling short and address these in a non-generic manner. This contract is purely buck passing in my opinion and should be taken issue with……..

>three hours of homework

Can’t he just copy & paste it all from Wikipedia like everyone else?

;)

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Dropbear said:

one imagines we’re not getting the full story here…

I doubt the school would waste their time with this sort of thing unless there was a real issue here, either with the kids behavior, or something else not being discussed.

perhaps the school feels the subject choices the child is making is beyond the ability of the child, with the level of effort being shown in year 11..

Even if there is an issue with the childs performance, how is this a measured response? If he has issues with comprehending 3 hours there is a reason. Most likely would be that he loses focus with so many different subjects to wrap his head around. More effort should be put in by his mentors to identify where he is falling short and address these in a non-generic manner. This contract is purely buck passing in my opinion and should be taken issue with……..

Yea, he should have had more controlling parents…

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Dropbear said:

one imagines we’re not getting the full story here…

I doubt the school would waste their time with this sort of thing unless there was a real issue here, either with the kids behavior, or something else not being discussed.

perhaps the school feels the subject choices the child is making is beyond the ability of the child, with the level of effort being shown in year 11..

Even if there is an issue with the childs performance, how is this a measured response? If he has issues with comprehending 3 hours there is a reason. Most likely would be that he loses focus with so many different subjects to wrap his head around. More effort should be put in by his mentors to identify where he is falling short and address these in a non-generic manner. This contract is purely buck passing in my opinion and should be taken issue with……..

Who knows.. Maybe the parent/child refuses a more reasonable selection of courses, in line with their ability..

Maybe the parent is pushing the child

Maybe the school has real reservations about allowing the child a course of study they’re unlikely to succeed in, and think it may be disruptive on other children.

Like I said, no doubt, we’re getting one side of the story

poikilotherm said:

Yea, he should have had more controlling parents…

That isn’t what I said. The school owes him and his parents more effort. IMO

Have you tried growing any rice, Bubbles?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

poikilotherm said:

Yea, he should have had more controlling parents…

That isn’t what I said. The school owes him and his parents more effort. IMO

Yea, it’s all somebody else’s fault.

Dropbear said:

Who knows.. Maybe the parent/child refuses a more reasonable selection of courses, in line with their ability..

Maybe the parent is pushing the child

Maybe the school has real reservations about allowing the child a course of study they’re unlikely to succeed in, and think it may be disruptive on other children.

Like I said, no doubt, we’re getting one side of the story

From podzols description his child wants to do well in school. It sounds to me like the school is applying a band aid tactic because it hasn’t the resource to address the problem adequately. If the child has an issue with 3 hours this should be taken seriously enough that the reasons are understood. Regardless, it is significantly beyond a schools authority to enforce a legal contract onto a minor.

poikilotherm said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

poikilotherm said:

Yea, he should have had more controlling parents…

That isn’t what I said. The school owes him and his parents more effort. IMO

Yea, it’s all somebody else’s fault.

If I am in charge of a minor, all their actions are my fault. If a person cannot take pro-active responsiblity, they should not be in a position of authority.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Dropbear said:

Who knows.. Maybe the parent/child refuses a more reasonable selection of courses, in line with their ability..

Maybe the parent is pushing the child

Maybe the school has real reservations about allowing the child a course of study they’re unlikely to succeed in, and think it may be disruptive on other children.

Like I said, no doubt, we’re getting one side of the story

From podzols description his child wants to do well in school. It sounds to me like the school is applying a band aid tactic because it hasn’t the resource to address the problem adequately. If the child has an issue with 3 hours this should be taken seriously enough that the reasons are understood. Regardless, it is significantly beyond a schools authority to enforce a legal contract onto a minor.

Who says it’s a legal contract? Schools get students to make pledges all the time … they “sign” behavioral contracts all the time .. no one says they’re enforceable in a court, but it helps communicate the gravity of the situation to the student

Dropbear said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Dropbear said:

Who knows.. Maybe the parent/child refuses a more reasonable selection of courses, in line with their ability..

Maybe the parent is pushing the child

Maybe the school has real reservations about allowing the child a course of study they’re unlikely to succeed in, and think it may be disruptive on other children.

Like I said, no doubt, we’re getting one side of the story

From podzols description his child wants to do well in school. It sounds to me like the school is applying a band aid tactic because it hasn’t the resource to address the problem adequately. If the child has an issue with 3 hours this should be taken seriously enough that the reasons are understood. Regardless, it is significantly beyond a schools authority to enforce a legal contract onto a minor.

Who says it’s a legal contract? Schools get students to make pledges all the time … they “sign” behavioral contracts all the time .. no one says they’re enforceable in a court, but it helps communicate the gravity of the situation to the student

Either that or it teaches the student that they can promise anything and never have to honour that promise.

Tamb said:

Dropbear said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

From podzols description his child wants to do well in school. It sounds to me like the school is applying a band aid tactic because it hasn’t the resource to address the problem adequately. If the child has an issue with 3 hours this should be taken seriously enough that the reasons are understood. Regardless, it is significantly beyond a schools authority to enforce a legal contract onto a minor.

Who says it’s a legal contract? Schools get students to make pledges all the time … they “sign” behavioral contracts all the time .. no one says they’re enforceable in a court, but it helps communicate the gravity of the situation to the student

Either that or it teaches the student that they can promise anything and never have to honour that promise.

tops life lesson then…

Dropbear said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Who says it’s a legal contract? Schools get students to make pledges all the time … they “sign” behavioral contracts all the time .. no one says they’re enforceable in a court, but it helps communicate the gravity of the situation to the student

Signing a pledge regarding behavior is one thing. This is different and represents an arbitrary penalty for falling short in performance. This pressure is quite likely to have the opposite effect to the one they seek. It is lazy and buck passing. They should only commit him to identifying where he is falling short and to address these areas.

Dropbear said:

Tamb said:

Dropbear said:

Who says it’s a legal contract? Schools get students to make pledges all the time … they “sign” behavioral contracts all the time .. no one says they’re enforceable in a court, but it helps communicate the gravity of the situation to the student

Either that or it teaches the student that they can promise anything and never have to honour that promise.

tops life lesson then…

Yes. Career choice. Politician.

Tamb said:

Either that or it teaches the student that they can promise anything and never have to honour that promise.

perzackly!!!

sort of thing that develops a contempt for process……..

>3 hours of study per night is achievable (30 mins for each of his six subjects).

Seems unlikely that the requirements of each subject could be met by such a symmetrical allocation. Surely some subjects will sometimes need more than that, others less.

Bubblecar said:

>3 hours of study per night is achievable (30 mins for each of his six subjects).

Seems unlikely that the requirements of each subject could be met by such a symmetrical allocation. Surely some subjects will sometimes need more than that, others less.

this is what I am saying. it is a generic answer that doesn’t identify anything meaningful and to couch it as a contract is as good as penalising the child for the weaknesses of the schooling system….

I’m all for those involved finding a solution but this is not pro-active.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Bubblecar said:

>3 hours of study per night is achievable (30 mins for each of his six subjects).

Seems unlikely that the requirements of each subject could be met by such a symmetrical allocation. Surely some subjects will sometimes need more than that, others less.

this is what I am saying. it is a generic answer that doesn’t identify anything meaningful and to couch it as a contract is as good as penalising the child for the weaknesses of the schooling system….

Or themselves…which ever is easier for the person to blame.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

this is what I am saying. it is a generic answer that doesn’t identify anything meaningful and to couch it as a contract is as good as penalising the child for the weaknesses of the schooling system….

And if you are not anglo saxon you could also argue that the school is being racist.

I would not entertain the idea unless the school were willing to commit to identifying areas of shortfall to provide structure and focus to this commitment. Clear identification of aims and methods to achieve these are more important than this faux lesson in taking responsibility.

Hi again.
Great discussion, thanks.

My original question was regarding the requirement of 3 hours/day homework.

It seems like a very blunt instrument to achieve a goal. Sure it is Simple and Measureable but I am nt sure it is Reasonable.

Eg if he does 2.5 hrs/night homework he will fail this target.

If he passes all subjects with A’s and does 1.5 hrs/night he fails this target.

I would like to capture the requirement to complete all assessments on time (maybe even take a draft to the teacher, say, 3 days before the due date to check that he has completed all required work), and have a complete set of revision notes/sample questions completed before a test/exam.

I think 1 – 2 hrs is reasonable. If he wanted to get into law/medicine etc then a 3 hr commitment would be more reasonable.

I don’t want him to sign a “contract” (or agreement/commitment) that is too overwhelming and not achievable.

Arts: I like the idea of Tuart College (Year 12 in a TAFE like environment). They only have to do 4 subjects where my son will need to do six. Four are used to get an ATAR score. My son is keen to stay where he is with his friends, I think that is important too. He is 16 after all and still a kid.

Also, my 14 year old son works at Maccas. He is learning skills and life lessons that his high school will never teach him! (and I know big corps like IBM value Maccas experience favourably).

>…underperformance…”

Hmmm. Certainly established that now courtesy of acknowledging it, but underperformed at what exactly?

Underperformance = poor grades due to low marks in assessments.

However, that is a separate issue that we are working on with a team of people :)

My current concern is with the commitments in the contract.

I think I will let the school know that my son will work with the experts (and family) to develop his goals and strategies to reach the goals – these can then inform the commitments he makes to the school.

Cheers.

podzol said:

Underperformance = poor grades due to low marks in assessments.

However, that is a separate issue that we are working on with a team of people :)

My current concern is with the commitments in the contract.

I think I will let the school know that my son will work with the experts (and family) to develop his goals and strategies to reach the goals – these can then inform the commitments he makes to the school.

Cheers.

you’d be better off pulling him out of school and just teaching him yourself

oh yes – by the way there is a second pathway to get the year 10/11/12

many TAFEs still offer it during the day , lots of people for whatever reason go and do these subjects full time at TAFE, instead of mucking around at school just send them to TAFE

podzol said:

Underperformance = poor grades due to low marks in assessments.

However, that is a separate issue that we are working on with a team of people :)

My current concern is with the commitments in the contract.

I think I will let the school know that my son will work with the experts (and family) to develop his goals and strategies to reach the goals – these can then inform the commitments he makes to the school.

Cheers.

I like it ;)

My wife teaches piano music at school. She is under the total misapprehension that poor performance is due to inadequate practice. She should be aware that this is not so because when she “practices” for a performance she only plays it through once or twice before the performance – then performs it perfectly or almost perfectly on the day. I don’t know why the meme of “practice makes perfect” ever made it into the public domain as it’s a total lie.

My simple rule is:

Talent makes good.
Practice makes better.
Only genius makes perfect.

Also, the quality of the teacher has an enormous effect on how well the students perform, far more of an effect than any amount of homework.

mollwollfumble said:

My wife teaches piano music at school. She is under the total misapprehension that poor performance is due to inadequate practice. She should be aware that this is not so because when she “practices” for a performance she only plays it through once or twice before the performance – then performs it perfectly or almost perfectly on the day. I don’t know why the meme of “practice makes perfect” ever made it into the public domain as it’s a total lie.

My simple rule is:

Talent makes good.
Practice makes better.
Only genius makes perfect.

Also, the quality of the teacher has an enormous effect on how well the students perform, far more of an effect than any amount of homework.

Often the ineffectiveness of homework(practice) is due to it’s limited forms.

Also, the quality of the teacher has an enormous effect on how well the students perform, far more of an effect than any amount of homework.
—————————————————————

No, no,no.

The harder the pupil tries the better the teaching results…

Mr Ironic said:

Also, the quality of the teacher has an enormous effect on how well the students perform, far more of an effect than any amount of homework.
—————————————————————

No, no,no.

The harder the pupil tries the better the teaching results…

I had a lunch with “Miss Carrol” a while ago, and we discussed teacher effectiveness – she was saying every year she gets told how lucky she was to get “such a good class”. Every year. And the other teachers apparently haven’t worked it out.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Mr Ironic said:

Also, the quality of the teacher has an enormous effect on how well the students perform, far more of an effect than any amount of homework.
—————————————————————

No, no,no.

The harder the pupil tries the better the teaching results…

I had a lunch with “Miss Carrol” a while ago, and we discussed teacher effectiveness – she was saying every year she gets told how lucky she was to get “such a good class”. Every year. And the other teachers apparently haven’t worked it out.

It should be protocol to make notes when a teacher has consistently positive results…….

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Mr Ironic said:

Also, the quality of the teacher has an enormous effect on how well the students perform, far more of an effect than any amount of homework.
—————————————————————

No, no,no.

The harder the pupil tries the better the teaching results…

I had a lunch with “Miss Carrol” a while ago, and we discussed teacher effectiveness – she was saying every year she gets told how lucky she was to get “such a good class”. Every year. And the other teachers apparently haven’t worked it out.

Interesting.

I wonder does she also tell the class how lucky she is to have them.

practice is repetition.. and repetition is muscle memory. So practice, at the very least, makes you play as well as you practice.

>practice is repetition.. and repetition is muscle memory. So practice, at the very least, makes you play as well as you practice.

Of course playing is practice and practice is playing, though practice may not involve the full composition for an audience, though to play some part of more akin to practice could also feature as the full composition (of tasks, even music, think of something).

Not sure of emphasis on repetition, certainly familiarity. In fact repetition comes very close to habituation maybe, which certainly gets a lot of work done, but I ask of repetition and the like by whatever name are we aquainting with it, or is it aquainting the individual.

I like those old words like un/aquainted and un/familiar, they leave open the mediating factor, old fashioned will and discretion.

Once repetition and habit and the like could have hints of pathology, even suggestible similar, somewhere things swung the other direction.

Somewhere, sometime, individuals (by manufacture) perhaps became products to sell. I am not sure.

How lucky chrono-developmental expectations and temporal controls reign, for what better or other way is there, afterward.

Acquainted, there you go.

I like reading your posts transition. Instead of reading between the lines, that is what you supply and I have to read the line in(sort of)……

;)

Our boys started high school this year. We were informed at the start of the year (and again during the year 9 information session) that students were expected to complete a minimum of 1.0hrs of homework per night and that we could expect that this figure would increase by 0.5hrs per year, upto a total of 3.0hrs per night in yr 12.

We try to spread their study over the week and generally spend a couple of hours on a Sunday morning doing work as well.

I have to say I find the concept of doing homework by time an odd one. I know I went to school a long time ago now. But although there might have been suggestions, doing homework was more a matter of getting through the tasks set, not some arbitrary amount of time to be filled in. Maths worksheets had to be worked through, however long it took you (or how little). Geography and history assignments were set and you worked on them for whatever time it took to do them before the due hand in date. English novels you read and made notes on, again in whatever timescale it took the individual. I probably did a lot more time than a lot of other people because I love chasing up information.

I may be right out of line here but, when I knock off work, that’s it. I knock off.

Three hours a day? How many normal people would knock off work for the day and then put in three more hours at home? What about time for kids to do kid stuff?

Assuming they’re knocking off at 3:45 (That’s when my high school knock off time was) and allowing 1/2 an hour for travel time, that means they’re home at 4:15. So arvo tea will take us up to 4:30. 2 hours of study takes us up to dinner time. Lets be generous and give them an hour for that and then another hour of study. So now it’s 8:30 at night. If they’re learning a musical instrument, there’s another hour and bam! it’s bed time.

So what about other important extra curricular activities? I went to scouts, It took up most of an evening once a week. I also played sport one evening a week. So on this 3 hours of homework malarkey, I’d have had to spread another 6 hours out across my week.

Even at uni I didn’t do that. I did put in a 40 hour week, but just like the real world, I didn’t do overtime unless it was a particularly urgent job that I’d managed my time poorly on.

I organized my uni time similarly Teleost. I started at uni at 9.00 and left at 5.00 each day. Obviously that was not all lectures/tutes/pracs, but my course was a pretty full one, with around 31 hours a week structured time. Many of my friends in science courses had around 20 hours. My friend doing medicine had similar hours to me. Anyway, non structured time was spent in the library revising my lecture notes etc. This then meant I had time on the weekends for my Saturday morning job, my Saturday afternoon job, and some boyfriend time on Sunday.

It does come back to what I said about it being about getting the job done, not about sitting there looking at it for a specified amount of time.

Teleost said:

I may be right out of line here but, when I knock off work, that’s it. I knock off.

Three hours a day? How many normal people would knock off work for the day and then put in three more hours at home? What about time for kids to do kid stuff?

Assuming they’re knocking off at 3:45 (That’s when my high school knock off time was) and allowing 1/2 an hour for travel time, that means they’re home at 4:15. So arvo tea will take us up to 4:30. 2 hours of study takes us up to dinner time. Lets be generous and give them an hour for that and then another hour of study. So now it’s 8:30 at night. If they’re learning a musical instrument, there’s another hour and bam! it’s bed time.

So what about other important extra curricular activities? I went to scouts, It took up most of an evening once a week. I also played sport one evening a week. So on this 3 hours of homework malarkey, I’d have had to spread another 6 hours out across my week.

Even at uni I didn’t do that. I did put in a 40 hour week, but just like the real world, I didn’t do overtime unless it was a particularly urgent job that I’d managed my time poorly on.

I’d say it’s because the kid lacks the foundation knowledge from year 11 to continue in year 12 and quite possibly needs to do so much work just to catch up to understand the further concepts explored in the syllabus, rather than ‘just’ having ‘poor assessment marks’.

buffy said:

I have to say I find the concept of doing homework by time an odd one. I know I went to school a long time ago now. But although there might have been suggestions, doing homework was more a matter of getting through the tasks set, not some arbitrary amount of time to be filled in. Maths worksheets had to be worked through, however long it took you (or how little). Geography and history assignments were set and you worked on them for whatever time it took to do them before the due hand in date. English novels you read and made notes on, again in whatever timescale it took the individual. I probably did a lot more time than a lot of other people because I love chasing up information.

The idea is Buffy, that the time is an average representation of how long it’s likely to take to complete the allotted tasks.

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

diddly-squat said:

buffy said:

I have to say I find the concept of doing homework by time an odd one. I know I went to school a long time ago now. But although there might have been suggestions, doing homework was more a matter of getting through the tasks set, not some arbitrary amount of time to be filled in. Maths worksheets had to be worked through, however long it took you (or how little). Geography and history assignments were set and you worked on them for whatever time it took to do them before the due hand in date. English novels you read and made notes on, again in whatever timescale it took the individual. I probably did a lot more time than a lot of other people because I love chasing up information.

The idea is Buffy, that the time is an average representation of how long it’s likely to take to complete the allotted tasks.

Seems a flawed idea as it takes no account of the students varying talents.
I was hopeless at maths but could dash off a high quality essay as fast as I could write.

poikilotherm said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

Schools get children for about 17% of their week.

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

Schools get children for about 17% of their week.

The flying bunningses went that way —->

Tamb said:

diddly-squat said:

buffy said:

I have to say I find the concept of doing homework by time an odd one. I know I went to school a long time ago now. But although there might have been suggestions, doing homework was more a matter of getting through the tasks set, not some arbitrary amount of time to be filled in. Maths worksheets had to be worked through, however long it took you (or how little). Geography and history assignments were set and you worked on them for whatever time it took to do them before the due hand in date. English novels you read and made notes on, again in whatever timescale it took the individual. I probably did a lot more time than a lot of other people because I love chasing up information.

The idea is Buffy, that the time is an average representation of how long it’s likely to take to complete the allotted tasks.

Seems a flawed idea as it takes no account of the students varying talents.
I was hopeless at maths but could dash off a high quality essay as fast as I could write.

Of course, but so is trying to ‘catch up’ in your final year…

poikilotherm said:

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

Schools get children for about 17% of their week.

The flying bunningses went that way —->

I knew that before you said it.

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

roughbarked said:

Schools get children for about 17% of their week.

The flying bunningses went that way —->

I knew that before you said it.

Superfluous much?

poikilotherm said:

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

The flying bunningses went that way —->

I knew that before you said it.

Superfluous much?

yep.

poikilotherm said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

nothing like having some back up as well.

Arts said:

poikilotherm said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

nothing like having some back up as well.

Again, this is up to the parents to organise. Liasing with schools is not such a bad idea.. it is why they have the parent teacher groups.. or isn’t it?

Arts said:

poikilotherm said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

nothing like having some back up as well.

how to work independently… huge gaps in High schools to uni..

roughbarked said:

Arts said:

poikilotherm said:

Yea, can’t have the parents put effort like that in to their children.

nothing like having some back up as well.

Again, this is up to the parents to organise. Liasing with schools is not such a bad idea.. it is why they have the parent teacher groups.. or isn’t it?

Our PTA does nothing more than ‘raise money’ for sporting equipment….. don’t even get me started on the incompetence there

Arts said:

roughbarked said:

Arts said:

nothing like having some back up as well.

Again, this is up to the parents to organise. Liasing with schools is not such a bad idea.. it is why they have the parent teacher groups.. or isn’t it?

Our PTA does nothing more than ‘raise money’ for sporting equipment….. don’t even get me started on the incompetence there

Yes they should have arranged words to make the acronym PITA.

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Many of the tasks that the our boys are given have very ‘real life’ application.

diddly-squat said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Many of the tasks that the our boys are given have very ‘real life’ application.

everything has real life applications (except algebra) the students needs to realise the real life application… this is difficult for some students since they have never experienced real (independent) life.

The big drop out rates in uni at the beginning occur mostly because students can’t make the transition from teacher led study to independent study. I know that there are changes happening now.

diddly-squat said:

Arts said:

they should make them go to three hours of life skills.. things like time management, budgeting, how to use your ears and mouth proportionately, stuff like that.

Many of the tasks that the our boys are given have very ‘real life’ application.

A lot of this tends to be covered under areas of discipline at home. Kids are expected to learn self management skills with tasks like keeping their room clean etc. There is probably a degree of assumption in applying this area as a lot of emphasis can be put on the kid needing to have the right attitude or similar.

In my efforts to instill discipline and self management skills in my son, I focus on universal practicalites over identifying a variety of responsibilities he is to be given. For myself, managing a complex combination of tasks was confusing for a long time till someone pointed out a couple of basic philosophies to apply to all physical activities. The first is the rule of preparation and the second is that of double handling. If what is required of one mentally is broken down to these two necessities of efficient management then defining the reasons a task is necessary become immediately apparent.

As I said send them to TAFE

“..one mentally is broken down to these two necessities of efficient management then defining the reasons a task is necessary ..”

Yes, a recipe, and for those doing extended overdrive what is the recipe for burnout.

“task” be part of the modern soft-fascist language.