carbon monoxide kills you because your red blood cell think its oxygen and picks it up but then cant get rid of it.

what kills you in relation to methane gas?

oh my fav gas is carbon disulphide :)

Large amounts of it displace oxygen, so you essentially suffocate. Same with nitrogen, which is why liquid nitrogen needs to be treated carefully.

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

What she said plus the explosive potential of CH4. CH4 explosions are nasty, nasty, nasty.

Try nickel tetracarbonyl.

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Or, silicon tetrafluoride.

OCDC said:

Large amounts of it displace oxygen, so you essentially suffocate. Same with nitrogen, which is why liquid nitrogen needs to be treated carefully.

Likewise with helium

confined spaces training endlessly tells you to test the environment before entering

a low oxygen environment spells problems

cavers can be felled by low oxygen levels

any kind of gas that displaces oxygen will cause problems

OCDC said:

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

ah right so its a balance

carbon dioxide is normally really low 0.5%??

On a related topic…

wookiemeister said:

OCDC said:

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

ah right so its a balance

carbon dioxide is normally really low 0.5%??

More like 0.05%. And expired air is 4% CO2.

More like 0.05%.

should know that from all the global warming threads. and alan jones.

OCDC said:

wookiemeister said:

OCDC said:

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

ah right so its a balance

carbon dioxide is normally really low 0.5%??

More like 0.05%. And expired air is 4% CO2.

ah yes that’s right

I haven’t been involved with confined spaces for 5 years, funny enough I’m doing a course on it this week.

yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2

O2 = ?

robadob said:

yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2

O2 = ?

Oxygen.

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

Angus Prune said:

Try nickel tetracarbonyl.

Pfffft.

It’s only a gas on a very hot day (43°C), not at STP.

(Mind, I had to look that up…)

Oxygen in the air is in the form of two oxygen atoms bound together. Ozone is three oxygen atoms bound together.

robadob said:

yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2

O2 = ?

O2 = oxygen molecule.

robadob said:

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

Sorry, I don’t understand. (A 2 ?) What does this mean?

robadob said:

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

O is atomic oxygen, two atoms of oxygen, O2 is one molecule of oxygen.

so oxygen travells in pairs of molicules?
is there O were it hangs out by its self ?

Michael V said:

robadob said:

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

Sorry, I don’t understand. (A 2 ?) What does this mean?

Why is there a ‘2’ in the formula?

MV, why is it O2 and not just O. is what rob was asking.

robadob said:

so oxygen travells in pairs of molicules?
is there O were it hangs out by its self ?

No, not under normal circumstances.

robadob said:

so oxygen travells in pairs of molicules?
is there O were it hangs out by its self ?

O2 or O3 are normal.

O is atomic oxygen, two atoms of oxygen, O2 is one molecule of oxygen.

:)

so two of them make a molecule :)
1 = oxygen atom :)

OCDC said:

Michael V said:

robadob said:

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

Sorry, I don’t understand. (A 2 ?) What does this mean?

Why is there a ‘2’ in the formula?

Thanks.

:)

robadob said:

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

O or oxygen is an element

O2 is a molecule that forms when two oxygen atoms share electrons and become a molecule

ChrispenEvan said:

MV, why is it O2 and not just O. is what rob was asking.

Thanks. One of the problems with capitalisations. I don’t understand almost every time…

covalent bonding

you can get O3 as someone pointed out

wookiemeister said:

robadob said:

WHY DOES IT HAVE A 2 ?
why is it not O ?

O or oxygen is an element

O2 is a molecule that forms when two oxygen atoms share electrons and become a molecule

Good explanation, wookie.

so what kills you if you have 90%O2 and 10% CO2.

Did not think CO2 was a poison

robadob said:

O is atomic oxygen, two atoms of oxygen, O2 is one molecule of oxygen.

:)

so two of them make a molecule :)
1 = oxygen atom :)

O is atomic oxygen – one of these by itself is a molecule
O2 is two atoms of oxygen bound together – each pair of oxygens is also a molecule
O3 is three atoms of oxygen bound together – each triplet of oxygens is also a molecule

Say you have six separate Os.
If they are running around unattached to any others, there will be six molecules (O + O + O + O + O + O)
If they are running around in pairs, there will be three molecules (O2 + O2 + O2)
If they are running around in triplets, there will be two molecules (O3 + O3).

robadob said:

so what kills you if you have 90%O2 and 10% CO2.

Did not think CO2 was a poison

90% O2 + 10% CO2 is fine
90% O2 + 10% CO is very not fine

I FORGOT WE HAVE HTML!

The one we breathe is dioxygen.

Back in the old days when “town gas” was made by heating coal in metal retorts, breathig this could prove fatal, however breathing natural gas is not so dangerous.

CO
YES YES :)
my bad

oh

by the way

did anyone mention that you can have isotopes of oxygen?

oh

by the way

did anyone mention that you can have isotopes of oxygen?

we breath dioxygen :) never heard of it :) OCDC said:

I FORGOT WE HAVE HTML!

The one we breathe is dioxygen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_oxygen

isotopes = ?

Isotopes make no difference to their chemistry.

robadob said:

so what kills you if you have 90%O2 and 10% CO2.

Did not think CO2 was a poison

It is not toxic, a poison, but it will suffocate, ie displace oxygen.

wookiemeister said:

oh

by the way

did anyone mention that you can have isotopes of oxygen?

Hey Zeus! Don’t cloud the discussion with an irrelevancy.

robadob said:

isotopes = ?

Isotopes are forms of an element, such as oxygen, that have different weights. It is essentially isotopes that are responsible for radioactivity. However they do not change whether oxygen is monatomic, diatomic or ozone.

OCDC said:

Isotopes make no difference to their chemistry.

(Or rather only a minute difference to their chemistry.)

OCDC said:

Isotopes make no difference to their chemistry.

the proton decides what element it is, that’s how elements are defined

that aside, isotopes are another important concept

I’m surprised no one brought it up

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

Isotopes make no difference to their chemistry.

(Or rather only a minute difference to their chemistry.)

Little enough for the purposes of this thread…

I’m slowly winding up OCDC

give me time

OCDC said:

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

you’ve got atomic weight

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

Oh feck, yes, thanks 1006 (you’re a step ahead of me today…)

OCDC said:

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

Isotopes make no difference to their chemistry.

(Or rather only a minute difference to their chemistry.)

Little enough for the purposes of this thread…

Yes.

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

no V!!

you keep your powder dry for goodness sake!

then bam!!

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

robadob said:

so it does not kill you the lack of oxygen does ?

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

speshly if you light a match.

OCDC said:

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

Oh feck, yes, thanks 1006 (you’re a step ahead of me today…)

:)

(Probably first time ever.)

OCDC said:

90% O2 + 10% CO2 is fine

At higher pressures, no, 90% O2 is not fine (hyperbaric O2 and high O2 in SCUBA mix can be lethal)

> 1 % CO2 at STP is not fine (if you have been caving, you’d know this – foul air caves are awful)

10% CO2 can be fatal (as a toxin, not as an asphaxiant – fnerks up blood pH and other stuff)

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

Having worked (hard, physical labour) in 6% CO~2~ at 8 or so hour stretches, I can say that 10% CO~2~ wouldn’t leave you feeling very well, and may even kill you.

Has there been any recordered cases of death by “Dutch oven”?

morrie said:

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

Yep. Whereas you can die in 90% O2 if the rest is CO2.

Unfortunately OCDC introduced this. I think she meant CO, not CO2.

speshly if you light a match.

OH!

Absolutely!

neomyrtus_ said:

OCDC said:

90% O2 + 10% CO2 is fine

At higher pressures, no, 90% O2 is not fine (hyperbaric O2 and high O2 in SCUBA mix can be lethal)

> 1 % CO2 at STP is not fine (if you have been caving, you’d know this – foul air caves are awful)

10% CO2 can be fatal (as a toxin, not as an asphaxiant – fnerks up blood pH and other stuff)

might help bring it down below 9.68 if the aim is to prevent cancer. ;)

bob(from black rock) said:

Has there been any recordered cases of death by “Dutch oven”?

some bloke in a tent recently

bob(from black rock) said:

Has there been any recorded cases of death by “Dutch oven”?

Refer to methane, discussed earlier…

You prolly won’t understand that comment neo. Refers to something a couple of days ago.

wookiemeister said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Has there been any recordered cases of death by “Dutch oven”?

some bloke in a tent recently

Yeah but he was proly killed by a fractured skull.

bob(from black rock) said:

wookiemeister said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Has there been any recordered cases of death by “Dutch oven”?

some bloke in a tent recently

Yeah but he was proly killed by a fractured skull.

he mixed up something to make H2S I believe

bob(from black rock) said:

Has there been any recordered cases of death by “Dutch oven”?

According to Mythbusters, only one. But even that is disputed.

On a not wholey unrelated subject perhaps, do humans and animals when sleeping, near some other or by putting the face under or head part under the rugs or whatever, adjust the CO2/oxygen ratio to aid mood change to sleepiness. I have tended to do it a bit since a child, some of it in the colder months is heat conservation.

transition said:

On a not wholey unrelated subject perhaps, do humans and animals when sleeping, near some other or by putting the face under or head part under the rugs or whatever, adjust the CO2/oxygen ratio to aid mood change to sleepiness. I have tended to do it a bit since a child, some of it in the colder months is heat conservation.

I prefer the pillow over the face method for wealthy widows

wookiemeister said:

bob(from black rock) said:

wookiemeister said:

some bloke in a tent recently

Yeah but he was proly killed by a fractured skull.

he mixed up something to make H2S I believe

Ah H2S.

No there’s a weird gas. Stinks. Rotten egg gas.

At concentrations high enough to kill, one can’t smell H2S. Over-powers the sense of smell, I guess. Brain says “No, can’t possibly get this concentration. I’ll turn that off, thanks. Overload error.” And then you die.

wookiemeister said:

bob(from black rock) said:

wookiemeister said:

some bloke in a tent recently

Yeah but he was proly killed by a fractured skull.

he mixed up something to make H2S I believe

That would not have been a good way to go.

On the subject of tolerance of people’s farts, should inform of the wife’s theory re the matter, which thought casually insightful. Her theory is that one is more tolerant of their own farts because they get to enjoy the relief that comes with it.

Mine ventilation 101

Methane is not toxic, however (as OCDC said) it is an asphyxiant (in that is displaces oxygen). You don’t want to be breathing more than about 15% methane in air.

Carbon monoxide is toxic, it is also colourless and odorless. You really don’t want to be breathing anything more than 100ppm for any length of time.

How do you decide which child is sent down first?

OCDC said:

How do you decide which child is sent down first?

Well you reallY want one tall one for the CH4 and one short one for the CO

OCDC said:

How do you decide which child is sent down first?

Only the chicks.

diddly-squat said:

OCDC said:

How do you decide which child is sent down first?

Well you reallY want one tall one for the CH4 and one short one for the CO

An excellent plan.

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

How do you decide which child is sent down first?

Only the chicks.

The old mine rescue station at Ipswich still has a few canaries

diddly-squat said:

Michael V said:

OCDC said:

How do you decide which child is sent down first?

Only the chicks.

The old mine rescue station at Ipswich still has a few canaries

Huh!

Didn’t know that.

Michael V said:

diddly-squat said:

Michael V said:

Only the chicks.

The old mine rescue station at Ipswich still has a few canaries

Huh!

Didn’t know that.

Did you also know that UQ is looking to close the experimental mine in Indooroopilly

diddly-squat said:

Michael V said:

diddly-squat said:

The old mine rescue station at Ipswich still has a few canaries

Huh!

Didn’t know that.

Did you also know that UQ is looking to close the experimental mine in Indooroopilly

No, I didn’t

Why?

Michael V said:

diddly-squat said:

Michael V said:

Huh!

Didn’t know that.

Did you also know that UQ is looking to close the experimental mine in Indooroopilly

No, I didn’t

Why?

OH&S concerns

diddly-squat said:

Michael V said:

diddly-squat said:

Did you also know that UQ is looking to close the experimental mine in Indooroopilly

No, I didn’t

Why?

OH&S concerns

Bloody.

Surely that stuff would be fixable. I would expect so, anyway.

Michael V said:

diddly-squat said:

Michael V said:

No, I didn’t

Why?

OH&S concerns

Bloody.

Surely that stuff would be fixable. I would expect so, anyway.

No it’s not a matter of the safety of the excavation, it’s a matter of putting students at risk by the pure virtue of being UG

>Carbon monoxide is toxic, it is also colourless and odorless. You really don’t want to be breathing anything more than 100ppm for any length of time.

While this is true, if you go from breathing regular air to putting your head over burned down white coals it seems to have a contrast? I mean regular air has moisture and whatever else in it, so when you put your head over burned down coals what are you really smelling?

transition said:

>Carbon monoxide is toxic, it is also colourless and odorless. You really don’t want to be breathing anything more than 100ppm for any length of time.

While this is true, if you go from breathing regular air to putting your head over burned down white coals it seems to have a contrast? I mean regular air has moisture and whatever else in it, so when you put your head over burned down coals what are you really smelling?

H2S?

>so when you put your head over burned down coals what are you really smelling?

Presumably a long list of combustion by-products.

>Presumably a long list of combustion by-products.

While profundity reigns, blue skies your way, car?

;)

Point being that burned down coals with no flame generate a lot of carbon monoxide, and was wondering of the contast to air when you say lean over the 200L drum firebucket outside, you know next morn after a few beers or whateever. Similar smell maybe from petrol cars running a cat’ converter.

There are great number of exotic gases produces as a result of combustion, many have odours, some do not.

>There are great number of exotic gases produces as a result of combustion, many have odours, some do not”

True, was wondering of the olfactory sense, if I go from something that has a smell to something that doesn’t, does the contrast register as a smell change?

transition said:

>There are great number of exotic gases produces as a result of combustion, many have odours, some do not”

True, was wondering of the olfactory sense, if I go from something that has a smell to something that doesn’t, does the contrast register as a smell change?

Well you’d certainly expect it to.

diddly-squat said:

Mine ventilation 101

Methane is not toxic, however (as OCDC said) it is an asphyxiant (in that is displaces oxygen). You don’t want to be breathing more than about 15% methane in air.

Carbon monoxide is toxic, it is also colourless and odorless. You really don’t want to be breathing anything more than 100ppm for any length of time.

I don’t think, from memory, that carbon monoxide is toxic, it is a lack o oxygen that kills you.

The reason such a tiny amount will kill is that the blood loves carbon monoxide and is thousands of times more likely to pick it up (if available) than oxygen.

Anywho said:

diddly-squat said:

Mine ventilation 101

Methane is not toxic, however (as OCDC said) it is an asphyxiant (in that is displaces oxygen). You don’t want to be breathing more than about 15% methane in air.

Carbon monoxide is toxic, it is also colourless and odorless. You really don’t want to be breathing anything more than 100ppm for any length of time.

I don’t think, from memory, that carbon monoxide is toxic, it is a lack o oxygen that kills you.

The reason such a tiny amount will kill is that the blood loves carbon monoxide and is thousands of times more likely to pick it up (if available) than oxygen.

Memory has errors.

CO is toxic, preferentially binds to haemoglobin (Hb), while still allowing oxygen to bind Hb, but not be released to tissue. There is plenty of oxygen but no release from the haemoglobin. Also causes problems with Myoglobin.

Phosphine, just go with phosphine.

robadob said:

we breath dioxygen :) never heard of it :) OCDC said:

I FORGOT WE HAVE HTML!

The one we breathe is dioxygen.

Isn’t Ozone toxic too?

bob(from black rock) said:

robadob said:

we breath dioxygen :) never heard of it :) OCDC said:

I FORGOT WE HAVE HTML!

The one we breathe is dioxygen.

Dihydrogen monoxide we drink

Isn’t Ozone toxic too?

bob(from black rock) said:

bob(from black rock) said:

robadob said:

we breath dioxygen :) never heard of it :)

Dihydrogen monoxide we drink

Isn’t Ozone toxic too?

Yes (IIRC).

Michael V said:

bob(from black rock) said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Dihydrogen monoxide we drink

Isn’t Ozone toxic too?

Yes (IIRC).

Have a read of these references:

http://www.triroc.com/sunnen/topics/ozonemed.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone#Health_effects

http://www.ecosensors.com/wp-content/uploads/old/OS-102-BOC_Ozone_MSDS.pdf (LC50 shown)

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Yes (IIRC).

Have a read of these references:

http://www.triroc.com/sunnen/topics/ozonemed.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone#Health_effects

http://www.ecosensors.com/wp-content/uploads/old/OS-102-BOC_Ozone_MSDS.pdf (LC50 shown)

Michael V thankyou

Glad to have been a help.

:) :)

I never knew all that about ozone!