does aluminum shrink when heated and quenched?

:)
and hello and happy new year to all

robadob said:

does aluminum shrink when heated and quenched?

It does shrink when heated or collapse, rather.

I think the term you are looking for is annealing?

so heat and quench will shrink it?

roughbarked said:

robadob said:

does aluminum shrink when heated and quenched?

It does shrink when heated or collapse, rather.

I think the term you are looking for is annealing?

here’s a read: http://www.asminternational.org/portal/site/www/SubjectGuideItem/?vgnextoid=5c3655c96bd9d210VgnVCM100000621e010aRCRD

robadob said:

so heat and quench will shrink it?

depends when you quench.

no anneal is tempering.

wondering if it shrinks the same as steel

robadob said:

no anneal is tempering.

wondering if it shrinks the same as steel

annealing is not tempering.. otherwise there would be no need for the two words.

roughbarked said:

robadob said:

no anneal is tempering.

wondering if it shrinks the same as steel

annealing is not tempering.. otherwise there would be no need for the two words.

Can you think of why it would behave like steel? If so, then why manufacture steel stuff?

Both steel and aluminium expand when heated…

poikilotherm said:

Both steel and aluminium expand when heated…

err…nevermind.

poikilotherm said:

Both steel and aluminium expand when heated…

As all metals do but aluminium collapses and shrinks, more quickly at similar temperatures.

OK.

EXAMPLE: i take a 1/2 spanner made of steel, i then heat it till its close to starting to go red. I then (while its still hot) drop it in a bucket of water.
once cool it is now smaller and will no longer fit over a 1/2 inch nut.

if i had an aluminum 1/2 inch spanner, heated it to a little before it goes plastic then cooled it quickly in a bucket of water , would it have shrunk? or will it still fit a 1/2 inch nut?

annealing is not tempering.. otherwise there would be no need for the two words.

Just as there is no need for the two words cretin and imbecile and yet ……

robadob said:

OK.

EXAMPLE: i take a 1/2 spanner made of steel, i then heat it till its close to starting to go red. I then (while its still hot) drop it in a bucket of water.
once cool it is now smaller and will no longer fit over a 1/2 inch nut.

if i had an aluminum 1/2 inch spanner, heated it to a little before it goes plastic then cooled it quickly in a bucket of water , would it have shrunk? or will it still fit a 1/2 inch nut?

Please do not do this at home.

Jing Joh said:

annealing is not tempering.. otherwise there would be no need for the two words.

Just as there is no need for the two words cretin and imbecile and yet ……

here I am?

bit sad on the feed back boys :(

Hot aluminium and water do not play nicely.

robadob said:

bit sad on the feed back boys :(

—-

You want the bendy pink straw guy…

what happens ?

holds its heat a lot longer than seel

robadob said:

what happens ?

—-

. Metallurgist. Sometime’s favours pink . If a forumer can summon him up the he is the man.

Looks like there might be some change rob. Can’t get this paper and can’t find anything that I can access.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02661205

Alan TM is the forum avatar, or was….

robadob said:

what happens ?

Do not pour molten aluminium into a crucible that is damp. Bad things happen.

http://forgingmagazine.com/feature/aluminum-forging-processes-overview

During forging, aluminium shrinks less than steel does.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-the-Point-Heat-Treating-Aluminum-Frames.html

robadob said:

OK.

EXAMPLE: i take a 1/2 spanner made of steel, i then heat it till its close to starting to go red. I then (while its still hot) drop it in a bucket of water.
once cool it is now smaller and will no longer fit over a 1/2 inch nut.

if i had an aluminum 1/2 inch spanner, heated it to a little before it goes plastic then cooled it quickly in a bucket of water , would it have shrunk? or will it still fit a 1/2 inch nut?

If it doesn’t fit the nut anymore has the spanner shrunk or grown???

Stealth said:

robadob said:

OK.

EXAMPLE: i take a 1/2 spanner made of steel, i then heat it till its close to starting to go red. I then (while its still hot) drop it in a bucket of water.
once cool it is now smaller and will no longer fit over a 1/2 inch nut.

if i had an aluminum 1/2 inch spanner, heated it to a little before it goes plastic then cooled it quickly in a bucket of water , would it have shrunk? or will it still fit a 1/2 inch nut?

If it doesn’t fit the nut anymore has the spanner shrunk or grown???

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel.

If it won’t fit over the nut then it has to have shrunk.

robadob said:

OK.

EXAMPLE: i take a 1/2 spanner made of steel, i then heat it till its close to starting to go red. I then (while its still hot) drop it in a bucket of water.
once cool it is now smaller and will no longer fit over a 1/2 inch nut.

if i had an aluminum 1/2 inch spanner, heated it to a little before it goes plastic then cooled it quickly in a bucket of water , would it have shrunk? or will it still fit a 1/2 inch nut?

Open-ended or ring?

roughbarked said:

Stealth said:

robadob said:

OK.

EXAMPLE: i take a 1/2 spanner made of steel, i then heat it till its close to starting to go red. I then (while its still hot) drop it in a bucket of water.
once cool it is now smaller and will no longer fit over a 1/2 inch nut.

if i had an aluminum 1/2 inch spanner, heated it to a little before it goes plastic then cooled it quickly in a bucket of water , would it have shrunk? or will it still fit a 1/2 inch nut?

If it doesn’t fit the nut anymore has the spanner shrunk or grown???

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel.

If it won’t fit over the nut then it has to have shrunk.

I believe that he mention of shrinkage in your link refers to reversible thermal contraction, not shrinkage due to internal structural change, which is what happens during a heat/quench cycle.

morrie said:

roughbarked said:

Stealth said:

If it doesn’t fit the nut anymore has the spanner shrunk or grown???

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel.

If it won’t fit over the nut then it has to have shrunk.

I believe that he mention of shrinkage in your link refers to reversible thermal contraction, not shrinkage due to internal structural change, which is what happens during a heat/quench cycle.

Yes. You will also read in there about the internal structure.

“In addition to the completely reversible changes in dimensions that are simple functions of temperature change and are caused by thermal expansion and contraction, dimensional changes of a permanent character are encountered during heat treatment
………

(but it depends on the alloy)
…………………….

Solution heat treatment and quenching of alloy 2219 causes lengthwise contraction of about 2mm/m. Solution heat treatment of and quenching of alloys of the 7xxx series is accompanied by lengthwise expansion, about 0.6mm/m for alloy 7075 rod or plate.”

from

Fabrication and finishing of Aluminum alloys.

Joseph R Davis, editor

p324

Google books

I think I said, “it depends on the metal”.. One could assume this also meant depends upon the alloy?

roughbarked said:

I think I said, “it depends on the metal”.. One could assume this also meant depends upon the alloy?

nice try :)

morrie said:

roughbarked said:

I think I said, “it depends on the metal”.. One could assume this also meant depends upon the alloy?

nice try :)

I do know some things about metallurgy, since watchmaker/jewellers do carry out such work but this shouldn’t confuse people to believe that I am actually fully cognizant of how all metals and their alloys perform in all instances.

roughbarked said:

morrie said:

roughbarked said:

I think I said, “it depends on the metal”.. One could assume this also meant depends upon the alloy?

nice try :)

I do know some things about metallurgy, since watchmaker/jewellers do carry out such work but this shouldn’t confuse people to believe that I am actually fully cognizant of how all metals and their alloys perform in all instances.

I was Principal Materials Engineer in Rio Tinto for 6 years, and I don’t know such things either.

morrie said:

roughbarked said:

morrie said:

nice try :)

I do know some things about metallurgy, since watchmaker/jewellers do carry out such work but this shouldn’t confuse people to believe that I am actually fully cognizant of how all metals and their alloys perform in all instances.

I was Principal Materials Engineer in Rio Tinto for 6 years, and I don’t know such things either.

The never ending story of keeping the mind open to learning new things.. ;)

or the never let oneself grow too long in the tooth without keeping up with new tricks.. theory.

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel

:)
COOL

robadob said:

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel

:)
COOL

Did you read my post, rob?
Some alloys shrink, some alloys expand when you heat and quench them.

morrie said:

robadob said:

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel

:)
COOL

Did you read my post, rob?
Some alloys shrink, some alloys expand when you heat and quench them.

No?

I spent quite a bit of time and effort researching that for you.

morrie said:

morrie said:

robadob said:

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel

:)
COOL

Did you read my post, rob?
Some alloys shrink, some alloys expand when you heat and quench them.

No?

I spent quite a bit of time and effort researching that for you.

I would like to help, but know sod-all about it.
Sorry.

morrie said:

morrie said:

robadob said:

In the instance mentioned in the link I posted. both metals shrink on cooling but aluminium shrinks less than steel

:)
COOL

Did you read my post, rob?
Some alloys shrink, some alloys expand when you heat and quench them.

No?

I spent quite a bit of time and effort researching that for you.

I still am unsure if a open ended spanner that is to small after quenching has shrunk or grown. I am pretty sure that if it was a ring spanner then it must have shrunk, but an open ender is a more open ended question.

Stealth said:

morrie said:

morrie said:

Did you read my post, rob?
Some alloys shrink, some alloys expand when you heat and quench them.

No?

I spent quite a bit of time and effort researching that for you.

I still am unsure if a open ended spanner that is to small after quenching has shrunk or grown. I am pretty sure that if it was a ring spanner then it must have shrunk, but an open ender is a more open ended question.

Open ended spanners actually open when heated. As I’ve had them go through a fire while still in their box. However, in that instance they weren’t quenched.

I am unsure of any reason one would seek an aluminium spanner though.

If the whole expands, the hole expands.

roughbarked said:

I am unsure of any reason one would seek an aluminium spanner though.

I took it as an example to illustrate the question.

morrie said:

If the whole expands, the hole expands.

succinct.

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

Skunkworks said:

roughbarked said:

I am unsure of any reason one would seek an aluminium spanner though.

I took it as an example to illustrate the question.

most likely.

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

When I was drilling holes in the walls here for picture hooks I purchased el cheapo masonry bits, they could barely do a hole. Tough render.

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

Every tool is purpose designed.. true. Thus there could be call for aluminium spanners in some instances.

Skunkworks said:

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

When I was drilling holes in the walls here for picture hooks I purchased el cheapo masonry bits, they could barely do a hole. Tough render.

Did you provide coolant/lubrication?

roughbarked said:

Skunkworks said:

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

When I was drilling holes in the walls here for picture hooks I purchased el cheapo masonry bits, they could barely do a hole. Tough render.

Did you provide coolant/lubrication?

Nope, I purchased some better ones. I don’t even know how you could do coolant on an interior painted wall without making a mess.

did the drill have hammer action? can make a diff in hard stuff.

ChrispenEvan said:

did the drill have hammer action? can make a diff in hard stuff.

Yeah, hammer and all, the difference was the bits, the cheap ones just got chewed up.

Skunkworks said:

ChrispenEvan said:

did the drill have hammer action? can make a diff in hard stuff.

Yeah, hammer and all, the difference was the bits, the cheap ones just got chewed up.

it is true that they do.. Water is the coolant/lubricant that works on masonry. One doesn’t need to get it all over the wall. One only needs to keep cooling the drill bit in an adjacent dish of water.

i sometimes wonder how these countries that make tools like that ever build anything. must import decent stuff to use themselves.

ChrispenEvan said:

i sometimes wonder how these countries that make tools like that ever build anything. must import decent stuff to use themselves.

They simply make cheap stuff for export only to dunderheads who buy for the lowest price rather than for a standard of quality.

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

i sometimes wonder how these countries that make tools like that ever build anything. must import decent stuff to use themselves.

They simply make cheap stuff for export only to dunderheads who buy for the lowest price rather than for a standard of quality.

quality no longer exists – it can’t compete

roughbarked said:

Skunkworks said:

ChrispenEvan said:

did the drill have hammer action? can make a diff in hard stuff.

Yeah, hammer and all, the difference was the bits, the cheap ones just got chewed up.

it is true that they do.. Water is the coolant/lubricant that works on masonry. One doesn’t need to get it all over the wall. One only needs to keep cooling the drill bit in an adjacent dish of water.

Would constant quenching of the drill bit mean that the hole will get smaller as it gets deeper.

lots of quality tools out there.

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

i sometimes wonder how these countries that make tools like that ever build anything. must import decent stuff to use themselves.

They simply make cheap stuff for export only to dunderheads who buy for the lowest price rather than for a standard of quality.

quality no longer exists – it can’t compete

true in all equipment that carries the DIY stamp.

you really need a machine shop to make your own tools

Stealth said:

roughbarked said:

Skunkworks said:

Yeah, hammer and all, the difference was the bits, the cheap ones just got chewed up.

it is true that they do.. Water is the coolant/lubricant that works on masonry. One doesn’t need to get it all over the wall. One only needs to keep cooling the drill bit in an adjacent dish of water.

Would constant quenching of the drill bit mean that the hole will get smaller as it gets deeper.

No. The opposite .. if you don’t quench the drill bit then it will wear so much it cannot drill the correct size hole.

where would you get the quality tools to make your own tools though????

ChrispenEvan said:

where would you get the quality tools to make your own tools though????

3D printer rover on Mars…

ChrispenEvan said:

where would you get the quality tools to make your own tools though????

My first lesson as a watchmaker was to make my own tools. Yes I had to buy high quality swiss files, sawblades and stuff to make hammers and things but by the time I’d finished my apprenticeship, I could make my own files too.

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

where would you get the quality tools to make your own tools though????

My first lesson as a watchmaker was to make my own tools. Yes I had to buy high quality swiss files, sawblades and stuff to make hammers and things but by the time I’d finished my apprenticeship, I could make my own files too.

It is not unusual for someone fixing instruments to have to make things like tiny drill bits that are unavailable other than from high priced specialist tool importers. Why would I keep a drill bit the size of a human hair for one job in ten thousand?

roughbarked said:

Stealth said:

roughbarked said:

it is true that they do.. Water is the coolant/lubricant that works on masonry. One doesn’t need to get it all over the wall. One only needs to keep cooling the drill bit in an adjacent dish of water.

Would constant quenching of the drill bit mean that the hole will get smaller as it gets deeper.

No. The opposite .. if you don’t quench the drill bit then it will wear so much it cannot drill the correct size hole.

dipping a drill bit into water after sharpening it makes the drill bit harder

if you allow it to cool naturally it will make it softer

as far as I know

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

Stealth said:

Would constant quenching of the drill bit mean that the hole will get smaller as it gets deeper.

No. The opposite .. if you don’t quench the drill bit then it will wear so much it cannot drill the correct size hole.

dipping a drill bit into water after sharpening it makes the drill bit harder

if you allow it to cool naturally it will make it softer

as far as I know

Since this thread has already had the words temper and anneal used.. I’ll leave it up to you to use them correctly.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

No. The opposite .. if you don’t quench the drill bit then it will wear so much it cannot drill the correct size hole.

dipping a drill bit into water after sharpening it makes the drill bit harder

if you allow it to cool naturally it will make it softer

as far as I know

Since this thread has already had the words temper and anneal used.. I’ll leave it up to you to use them correctly.

I think tempering is hardening the metal – the external surface

annealing is about relieving internal pressures within the metal?

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

dipping a drill bit into water after sharpening it makes the drill bit harder

if you allow it to cool naturally it will make it softer

as far as I know

Since this thread has already had the words temper and anneal used.. I’ll leave it up to you to use them correctly.

I think tempering is hardening the metal – the external surface

annealing is about relieving internal pressures within the metal?

properly done, annealing reaches zero temper.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

Since this thread has already had the words temper and anneal used.. I’ll leave it up to you to use them correctly.

I think tempering is hardening the metal – the external surface

annealing is about relieving internal pressures within the metal?

properly done, annealing reaches zero temper.

annealing is done by just letting the metal cool naturally I think

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

I think tempering is hardening the metal – the external surface

annealing is about relieving internal pressures within the metal?

properly done, annealing reaches zero temper.

annealing is done by just letting the metal cool naturally I think

Surely it isn’t too hard to read the links provided in the thread or simply look up the words.

we need to start building men’s sheds full of machinery

old codgers could run the shed and train whomever can be bothered to turn up

we need thousands more people who understand how to operate basic machinery

you could throw 3d printers into the mix as well

the plan so far is to take down manufacturing and just leave farming and mining – if you aren’t doing these two things you will be earning dirt money (law is a good refuge in such times as is real estate and working for the government)

We have men’s sheds. All over the country. Try visiting one.

roughbarked said:

We have men’s sheds. All over the country. Try visiting one.

is it a machine tool workshop or just depressed and grumpy old men talking crap?

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

We have men’s sheds. All over the country. Try visiting one.

is it a machine tool workshop or just depressed and grumpy old men talking crap?

Usually they are well equipped and if you get there quickly enough you may catch the clever old codgers before they drop the other foot in the grave.

a test to see whether the drill is sharpened correctly is to look at the swarf. two nice spirals means you’ve done it right.

ChrispenEvan said:

a test to see whether the drill is sharpened correctly is to look at the swarf. two nice spirals means you’ve done it right.

yes

this will occur also when you are drilling at the right speed – the best drill will create chips flying off if the drill isn’t used properly

i was having an issue with people understanding (or answering) a very simple question. the aluminum spanner was just an example.roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

Every tool is purpose designed.. true. Thus there could be call for aluminium spanners in some instances.

robadob said:

i was having an issue with people understanding (or answering) a very simple question. the aluminum spanner was just an example.roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

Every tool is purpose designed.. true. Thus there could be call for aluminium spanners in some instances.

i was having an issue with people understanding (or answering) a very simple question. the aluminum spanner was just an example

robadob said:

i was having an issue with people understanding (or answering) a very simple question. the aluminum spanner was just an example.roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

aluminium spanners?, i’ve seen soft plastic screwdrivers…

Every tool is purpose designed.. true. Thus there could be call for aluminium spanners in some instances.

Yeah. Stuff like that was said.. Keep reading..

plastic screwdrivers are used to tune the IF coils in radios. can’t use metal because that will affect the magnetic properties of the ferrite core and you’ll never be able to tune them.

ChrispenEvan said:

plastic screwdrivers are used to tune the IF coils in radios. can’t use metal because that will affect the magnetic properties of the ferrite core and you’ll never be able to tune them.

Absolutely. This is also, in a way, why watchmakers use things like plastic or bamboo tweezers to handle watch batteries and sensitive circuitry.. not to mention antistatic pads and wristbands?

If it doesn’t fit the nut anymore has the spanner shrunk or grown???
———————————————-

lol