Education reviewer Kevin Donnelly makes case for more religion to be taught in public schools
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-11/curriculum-critic-wants-more-religion-to-be-taught-in-schools/5195410

Well I dont want religion taught in public schools, religion is a waste of human time

teaching 2000 year old imaginary stuff to children is a crime and a complete waste of their time

we can teach children much better things than Kevin Donnelly and Christopher Pyne can come up with

things like Logic, Ethics, human rights, how to make good law, reality, reading writing, science math sport and life eduction, stuff like that, not stuff from 2000 year old books that never change

I dont want any children being dumbed down by sneaky liberals who WANT a dumbed down society

A message to Kevin Donnelly and Christopher Pyne: There is no case to teach religion in schools, there is no scientific proof of a god anywhere, no empirical evidence of a god anywhere, stop teaching 2000 year old stories that were made up by other people 2000 years ago, this is a modern society, stop trying to dumb down people, keep god out of schools!

the only case Kevin Donnelly has is that he is a nutcase

and are taxpayers are paying his wages?

stop wasting taxpayers money on BS!

Next they’re going to do a review of school music programs to determine if there is too much focus on classical music and not enough modern heavy metal. Alice Cooper and Ozzy Osborne will write the report, but the minister assures us it will be fair and balanced.

yes I’m angry again, I so want to kick that fucking poddle

Yeah, I will go and listen to some music for a while

CrazyNeutrino said:

yes I’m angry again, I so want to kick that fucking poddle

Yeah, I will go and listen to some music for a while

I think teaching religion in public and private school would be a good thing, and may lead to a better understanding and tolerance of religions.

How can an education curriculum be too secular?

I think before Mr Donnelly starts advising the government on education policy he should go back to school and learn the meaning of the word secular.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Yeah, I will go and listen to some music for a while

Classical or heavy metal?

Stealth said:

I think teaching religion in public and private school would be a good thing, and may lead to a better understanding and tolerance of religions.

I would be happy for religion to be taught as an elective but not as a compulsory subject; freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, if desired.

Obviousman said:

Stealth said:

I think teaching religion in public and private school would be a good thing, and may lead to a better understanding and tolerance of religions.

I would be happy for religion to be taught as an elective but not as a compulsory subject; freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, if desired.

Be alright if they taught Jesus was a delusional religious fanatic of Jewish origin.

Depends on what form it takes. If it is an impartial curriculum looking at the worlds religions and how they have influenced history that would be ok with me, with the proviso why not just channel those resources into a history curriculum. If however it is a backdoor god bothering exercise then nope, not for it.

Actually on balance with my proviso I am not for it.

It would be pretty difficult to teach about History and Society without spending some time on religion but I don’t think it needs to be a separate subject.

Learning about religion and indoctrination into religion are two different things. A critical study of religion would be a useful part of an education, but it’s more likely to be something amounting to “Religion is good mmmkay”.

Soso said:

Learning about religion and indoctrination into religion are two different things. A critical study of religion would be a useful part of an education, but it’s more likely to be something amounting to “Religion is good mmmkay”.

Apparently we all need to be taught that our society is based on Judeo-Christian values.

Skeptic Pete said:

Soso said:

Learning about religion and indoctrination into religion are two different things. A critical study of religion would be a useful part of an education, but it’s more likely to be something amounting to “Religion is good mmmkay”.

Apparently we all need to be taught that our society is based on Judeo-Christian values.

Learning about religions i.e. comparative religion would be a good topic in Social Studies but having religion taught as a subject is completely impractical. Which religions would be taught? There would be court cases galore when omitted religions were trying to get inclusion.

Many kids don’t want to be (forced) in(to) regular school, so I suppose putting something out there to chew on makes for a neat distraction. Giving the dog a bone (hard on dogs really the way I used that – apologies to all dogs).

What is really missing from secular schools is probably metaphysics.

Tamb said:

Skeptic Pete said:

Soso said:

Learning about religion and indoctrination into religion are two different things. A critical study of religion would be a useful part of an education, but it’s more likely to be something amounting to “Religion is good mmmkay”.

Apparently we all need to be taught that our society is based on Judeo-Christian values.

Learning about religions i.e. comparative religion would be a good topic in Social Studies but having religion taught as a subject is completely impractical. Which religions would be taught? There would be court cases galore when omitted religions were trying to get inclusion.

You would need to include Scientology and the Antichrist mob, or there could be real trouble.

i’ll wait until i hear arauca;s position.

The idea of comparative religion is OK, but it’s really just a part of history.

>The idea of comparative religion is OK, but it’s really just a part of history.

Part of the evolution of ideology (and ideological controls) I would have thought.

>Mr Donnelly says religion does not have enough of a presence in Australia’s “very secular curriculum”<

Then Mr Donnelly clearly doesn’t know what “secular” means, which doesn’t surprise me. The only presence that religion could have in a genuinely secular education system is in a social/cultural studies context, in which students are taught about the various religions and their beliefs in a value-free way. This doesn’t seem to be what the man has in mind, since he’s expecting religion to “counter” secularism in the curriculum.

general over view of all religions is good
teaching of only one is wrong

Promoting Reason

New Documentary Chronicles Road Tripping Scientists Promoting Reason

“Dennis Overbye reports in the NY Times that two years ago Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss set off on a barnstorming tour to save the world from religion and promote science. Their adventure is now the subject of The Unbelievers, a new documentary.

more…

unbelieversmovie.com

‘The Unbelievers’ follows renowned scientists Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss across the globe as they speak publicly about the importance of science and reason in the modern world – encouraging others to cast off antiquated religious and politically motivated approaches toward important current issues.

The film includes interviews with celebrities and other influential people who support the work of these controversial speakers, including:

Ricky Gervais
Woody Allen
Cameron Diaz
Stephen Hawking
Sarah Silverman
Bill Pullman
Werner Herzog
Bill Maher
Stephen Colbert
Tim Minchin
Eddie Izzard
Ian McEwan
Adam Savage
Ayaan Hirsi-Ali
Penn Jillette
Sam Harris
Dan Dennett
James Randi
Cormac McCarthy
Paul Provenza
James Morrison
Michael Shermer
David Silverman

…and more.

Either you teach religion or you don’t get the same level of funding given to private schools.. Shows how the current government reviews the word secular.

For me, history is chock full of examples of religious teachings and the consequences.

>For me, history is chock full of examples of religious teachings and the consequences.

Kids of course could do just the basics at school, in less than half the time they generally attend, leave all the rest to mums and dads or whatever, but it’s a childcare facility too, so you know mum and dad aspire to things that require money currency and have to both work (since ‘liberation’).

Religion is good in that it reinforces the seven day week, calendars, clocks and all, all manner of chrono-temporal rituals and habituation, and anyway fairly much anything that pours words and word-concepts into peoples heads tends linguistic and cultural determinism, especially if started early. Get a headstart on the beast in the machine you know, before it starts running its own human nature studies in its native language, before the tricks of the constructions have it that the forces of nature (physics, physical forces etc) are of a subordinate authority.

Religion can be good, maybe if philosophical, even metaphysical, could even be a blessed thing if it introduces the kids to critical thinking regards ideology and ideological control.

I think human nature studies should be introduced in schools, you know things that aid knowledge of self that give legitimacy. We could unblank the blank slate.

Not that I’m against creative projections representative of the workings of consciousness, I mean that’s what the origins of the God concept likely are.

Just imagine biohistory somehow happened upon an apparatus furnishing some creature-type with a mental toolbox that facilitated evolving multiview possibilities. I mean what a fucken nightmare, for sure threatens unermanagement of reality.

IMO schools should only teach the basics (up to yr10), it should be made clear it’s a childcare facility that during providing that childcare tends competencies of those basics (the three Rs), all other subjects should be electives. You’d get some science and many other things while doing the three Rs.

Anyway, at the end of the day, it’s not a bit of religion is schools that is likely to do much damage, it’s more that a kid doesn’t believe he can leave as needed and walk home or whatever, that the kid can’t piss or shit without it being socially mediated, and that a kid can’t take his favourite pet to school and maintain the continuity of reliable companionship with or from an animal.

I mean truly there is little reason these days more people can’t home school their kids.

Lot of humans are dumber then dogs in ways, and I don’t mean that in a nasty way, more a really horrible deserved insulting way.

buffy said:

The idea of comparative religion is OK, but it’s really just a part of history.

That was my point. Teaching about religion in schools would be a good thing, practicing it is not.

But in early years it should be included in SoSE, In later years it could be more specialised but optional, like History and Politics are. They manage to teach Politics which being accused of practicing it.

Stealth said:

buffy said:

The idea of comparative religion is OK, but it’s really just a part of history.

That was my point. Teaching about religion in schools would be a good thing, practicing it is not.

But in early years it should be included in SoSE, In later years it could be more specialised but optional, like History and Politics are. They manage to teach Politics which being accused of practicing it.

It is all very good to get all highbrow and study religions and politics, where they have their place in history and cultures, etc However one doesn’t get to this level in kindergarten. Long before one reaches the level of schooling required to debate such subjects, one would have been indocrinated with religion, if the religions and the religious were to have their way. Regarding religion, one is not encouraged to be a free thinking intellectual.

I think it’s a great idea if they taught how religion inhibited the development of free thought and science over the eons.

rumpole said:

I think it’s a great idea if they taught how religion inhibited the development of free thought and science over the eons.

:)

What would be more useful would be classes on life skills such as understanding the tax system and how to do a tax return.

wookiemeister said:

What would be more useful would be classes on life skills such as understanding the tax system and how to do a tax return.

I happen to agree. Once you start working, you’re expected to do grown-up things like tax returns. I think it’s easier these days with e-tax, which explains the questions to you and you can ask for more help if you still don’t understand.

As a tangent, I also support driver’s education in schools like they do in the US.

The point of religion is to control people. Once you have finished controlling people using the law and the police you need to fill the cracks that the human mind can fall into in their spare time. When they aren’t working they shod be praying – it stops the simpleton from getting into mischief. The purpose of most of the population is to serve a small destructive minority hell bent on self gratification and causing great damage to all creatures.

It’s easier to control the mob with religion, you can easily bribe the holy man of the mob rather than try to reason with them. You can eventually corrupt they holy man , eventually discredit him when of no use. It’s a tricky course to follow but has been tried and tested. In other societies they chose not to go this path as the allegiance of the mob to the state could be under threat by religion.

Ultimately it should be understood that the allegiance of the believer is not to the state he lives in but rather the religion he follows. He follows state laws only as far as his religion allows , beyond this all allegiance is to the religion and the holy leader that may or may not be turned. Russia for example uses the holy leader to control the population. the fanatically indoctrinated such as America and “Israel” were founded by religious fanatics so its expected that the mob there are controlled mostly by religious figure heads. The Church of England is where both head if state and religion are one , when you declare allegiance to god you swear allegiance to god , king and country there is no blurred line.

Father Bob does a Crazy Newt.. compares Abbott, Pyne to Nazis..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-12/father-bob/5196100

In fairness … this is not actually Liberal Party policy.

dv said:

In fairness … this is not actually Liberal Party policy.

sure it is

they’re the one who appointed liberal stooges to the positions

Dropbear said:

dv said:

In fairness … this is not actually Liberal Party policy.

sure it is

they’re the one who appointed liberal stooges to the positions

Okay … it is not OFFICIAL Liberal Party policy YET

Why the fuck am I defending the Libs? How much did I drink last night…

dv said:

Why the fuck am I defending the Libs? How much did I drink last night…

I did wonder..

>Why the fuck am I defending the Libs?

Tony’s fault.

dv said:

Dropbear said:

dv said:

In fairness … this is not actually Liberal Party policy.

sure it is

they’re the one who appointed liberal stooges to the positions

Okay … it is not OFFICIAL Liberal Party policy YET

“It’s September ’38 all over again.”

Bob

I think he makes a good point.

dv said:

In fairness … this is not actually Liberal Party policy.

in fairness… yet.

They have recruited two people with rather outspoken views to review and write a report. I think the outcome of the report will be a forgone conclusion, they are really just looking for a way to dress up their political convictions in a more acceptable form, with a veneer of logic and public policy.

it’s a bit like reviewing the question over whether school music programs should include heavy metal, and commissioning Alice Cooper and Ozzy Osborne to write the report.

too slow… as you were.

Ian said:

dv said:

Dropbear said:

sure it is

they’re the one who appointed liberal stooges to the positions

Okay … it is not OFFICIAL Liberal Party policy YET

“It’s September ’38 all over again.”

Bob

I think he makes a good point.

He’s possibly the most lucid confessed Christian I’ve ever heard speak.

Bravo Father Bob.

(Yes, I agree with him. And I am becoming more troubled by the silence of government as time goes on. He is right, we need community vigilance)

buffy said:

Bravo Father Bob.

(Yes, I agree with him. And I am becoming more troubled by the silence of government as time goes on. He is right, we need community vigilance)

absolutely.

>>He’s possibly the most lucid confessed Christian I’ve ever heard speak.<<

And not backward in being open about his own church, either. He has a History.

buffy said:

>>He’s possibly the most lucid confessed Christian I’ve ever heard speak.<<

And not backward in being open about his own church, either. He has a History.

Indeed he has.

Sometimes governments just put the word out there, it does what they want anyway, perhaps even better than if got passed and became explicit formal policy.

This is probably one such issue that is better not formalized (too much) into policy, though it remaining a backdrop of known government attitude will get a result.

There’s a substantial drift toward private schools I note, so if government schools were less religion-unfriendly this may be of some benefit to government schools.

>..Regarding religion, one is not encouraged to be a free thinking intellectual…”

Too much religion doesn’t seem to have gotten in the way of you being a free thinking intellectual, RB, or maybe it was that you were gifted that way from birth.

transition said:

>..Regarding religion, one is not encouraged to be a free thinking intellectual…”

Too much religion doesn’t seem to have gotten in the way of you being a free thinking intellectual, RB, or maybe it was that you were gifted that way from birth.

say that to islamic women

CrazyNeutrino said:

transition said:

>..Regarding religion, one is not encouraged to be a free thinking intellectual…”

Too much religion doesn’t seem to have gotten in the way of you being a free thinking intellectual, RB, or maybe it was that you were gifted that way from birth.

say that to islamic women

Ill think you will find that most religions suppress free thinking

brainwashing people into thinking about imaginary environments that are continually reinforced would hamper free thinking

just look at all the trouble Galileo and others had with the church

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

transition said:

>..Regarding religion, one is not encouraged to be a free thinking intellectual…”

Too much religion doesn’t seem to have gotten in the way of you being a free thinking intellectual, RB, or maybe it was that you were gifted that way from birth.

say that to islamic women

Ill think you will find that most religions suppress free thinking

brainwashing people into thinking about imaginary environments that are continually reinforced would hamper free thinking

just look at all the trouble Galileo and others had with the church

not much changes in Italy

they gaoled scientists because they didn’t predict a massive earth quake in an earth quake prone area that came out of the blue – they should have got the hint and escaped from the country as soon as the “authorities placed blame on someone for a natural and unpredictable event.

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

say that to islamic women

Ill think you will find that most religions suppress free thinking

brainwashing people into thinking about imaginary environments that are continually reinforced would hamper free thinking

just look at all the trouble Galileo and others had with the church

not much changes in Italy

they gaoled scientists because they didn’t predict a massive earth quake in an earth quake prone area that came out of the blue – they should have got the hint and escaped from the country as soon as the “authorities placed blame on someone for a natural and unpredictable event.

Starting with Gallileo? Well, probably many before him were treated similarly.

transition said:

>..Regarding religion, one is not encouraged to be a free thinking intellectual…”

Too much religion doesn’t seem to have gotten in the way of you being a free thinking intellectual, RB, or maybe it was that you were gifted that way from birth.

Thanks.
It may be true that I was gifted from birth but that was probably my set of parents and the neighbourhood I was raised in. My mother changed to Catholic so that she could be married to a Catholic. She was a school teacher and my father was a mining engineer and army engineer. Having been injured during the war spent his later years as A class diesel mechanic. Neither of my parents were fanatical about religion, yet I spent almost my entire education in Catholic schools.

roughbarked said:

yet I spent almost my entire education in Catholic schools.

Breeding ground for atheists in my experience.

Skeptic Pete said:

roughbarked said:

yet I spent almost my entire education in Catholic schools.

Breeding ground for atheists in my experience.

True.

When I was working in the shop we always had the obligatory morning tea.. The shop owner was a rigid Catholic and we had to do the nuns watches for free.

One morning at morning tea, I said, “Do you know Cardinal Pell said give me a child until he’s seven and you’ll never change him?”

The Non-Catholic watchmaker who sat next to me at the bench said, “so what happened to you then?”