Is the Sun solid, liquid, or gas? or a mixture of all 3? If a solid is it a metal?

Plasma.

So is plasma like a mixture of solid liquid and gas? could it be moulded like say wet sand? ( not with your bare hands mind you)

I suspect that even the definitions of solid/liquid/gas/plasma begin to breakdown at the temperatures and pressures involved.

bob(from black rock) said:

So is plasma like a mixture of solid liquid and gas? could it be moulded like say wet sand? ( not with your bare hands mind you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29

(The wiki article explains it much better than I can)

Divine Angel said:

bob(from black rock) said:

So is plasma like a mixture of solid liquid and gas? could it be moulded like say wet sand? ( not with your bare hands mind you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29

Ta DA don’t think I will play with the stuff.

bob(from black rock) said:

Is the Sun solid, liquid, or gas? or a mixture of all 3? If a solid is it a metal?

Most of the sun is hydrogen plasma (“flame”, if you will) but the core of the sun is something pretty special – not so much ‘solid’ as a collection of hydrogen so dense it is a fusion reactor.

If a solid is it a metal?

weeeellll. it isn’t a solid but has metals in its make-up. but then to astronomers any element other than hydrogen and helium is a metal.

If a solid is it a metal?
————————————

Yup, gold…

bob(from black rock) said:

Is the Sun solid, liquid, or gas? or a mixture of all 3? If a solid is it a metal?

The old “Earth, water, air, fire” in modern terms is “Solid, liquid, gas, plasma”. The Sun is made of plasma, which is most easily thought of as ionised gas, with atomic nuclei and atomic electrons flitting around independently.

There is a similarity to metal. In a metal some electrons are roaming about independently, which allows metals to conduct electricity. So if you took the Sun and instantly cooled it until it solidified, then much of that solid would end up being metallic hydrogen.

Molly, some help here, please.

I just noticed this post over on the comments section at the Guardian. The post was about nuclear fusion:

“The primary reaction that takes place in the sun’s core is
p + p -> d + e+ + ν + 0.42 MeV
In layman’s terms, two protons collide to form a deuteron, emitting a positron and a neutrino and generating 0.42 MeV of energy, in what is termed a weak interaction. The deuteron thus formed may then react with more protons eventually forming helium nuclei.

This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Err, does that make sense to you?

sibeen said:

Molly, some help here, please.

I just noticed this post over on the comments section at the Guardian. The post was about nuclear fusion:

“The primary reaction that takes place in the sun’s core is
p + p -> d + e+ + ν + 0.42 MeV
In layman’s terms, two protons collide to form a deuteron, emitting a positron and a neutrino and generating 0.42 MeV of energy, in what is termed a weak interaction. The deuteron thus formed may then react with more protons eventually forming helium nuclei.

This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Err, does that make sense to you?

FWIW, it ;looks right to me, although it’s incomplete, and there’s more happening in the sun than just that one reaction. Even that reaction is a two-step process: two ¹H nuclei combine to form a ²He nucleus (plus gamma ray), which then decays into the deuteron. The positron almost immediately meets and mutually annihilates with an electron, releasing a gamma ray and 1.02MeV.

This reaction is actually relatively rare; far more common is a p + p reaction that gives a He nucleus that immediately decays back into two protons.

There’s a good discussion at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton-proton_chain_reaction

Wocky said:

sibeen said:

Molly, some help here, please.

I just noticed this post over on the comments section at the Guardian. The post was about nuclear fusion:

“The primary reaction that takes place in the sun’s core is
p + p -> d + e+ + ν + 0.42 MeV
In layman’s terms, two protons collide to form a deuteron, emitting a positron and a neutrino and generating 0.42 MeV of energy, in what is termed a weak interaction. The deuteron thus formed may then react with more protons eventually forming helium nuclei.

This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Err, does that make sense to you?

FWIW, it ;looks right to me, although it’s incomplete, and there’s more happening in the sun than just that one reaction. Even that reaction is a two-step process: two ¹H nuclei combine to form a ²He nucleus (plus gamma ray), which then decays into the deuteron. The positron almost immediately meets and mutually annihilates with an electron, releasing a gamma ray and 1.02MeV.

This reaction is actually relatively rare; far more common is a p + p reaction that gives a He nucleus that immediately decays back into two protons.

There’s a good discussion at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton-proton_chain_reaction

Wocky, what caught my eye was the second paragraph:

“This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Surely that can’t be right.

Wocky said:

There’s a good discussion at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton-proton_chain_reaction

That is quite a good read.

Even I understood it, in a roundabout way :)

sibeen said:

Wocky, what caught my eye was the second paragraph:

“This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Surely that can’t be right.

It’s a very lazy comment (a human body “generates more heat output” than the same volume of the sun over what period?) but it’s certainly true that it’s a pitiful amount of energy; it’s just that there’s so many reactions. The p-p chain reaction happens about 10³⁸ times per second, converting 4 protons to alpha particles. Add all that up and you get almost 4×10²⁶J.s^-1.

Wocky said:

sibeen said:

Wocky, what caught my eye was the second paragraph:

“This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Surely that can’t be right.

It’s a very lazy comment (a human body “generates more heat output” than the same volume of the sun over what period?) but it’s certainly true that it’s a pitiful amount of energy; it’s just that there’s so many reactions. The p-p chain reaction happens about 10³⁸ times per second, converting 4 protons to alpha particles. Add all that up and you get almost 4×10²⁶J.s^-1.

Thanks for that.

So 4×10²⁶J.s^-1, is that a lot :)

sibeen said:

Wocky said:

It’s a very lazy comment (a human body “generates more heat output” than the same volume of the sun over what period?) but it’s certainly true that it’s a pitiful amount of energy; it’s just that there’s so many reactions. The p-p chain reaction happens about 10³⁸ times per second, converting 4 protons to alpha particles. Add all that up and you get almost 4×10²⁶J.s^-1.

Thanks for that.

So 4×10²⁶J.s^-1, is that a lot :)

Yep. It’s about 9×10¹⁰ megatons of TNT. I don’t know how many sydharbs it is, though :)

You know about watts, being an EE; a watt is 1J.s^-1.

Wocky said:

sibeen said:

Wocky said:

It’s a very lazy comment (a human body “generates more heat output” than the same volume of the sun over what period?) but it’s certainly true that it’s a pitiful amount of energy; it’s just that there’s so many reactions. The p-p chain reaction happens about 10³⁸ times per second, converting 4 protons to alpha particles. Add all that up and you get almost 4×10²⁶J.s^-1.

Thanks for that.

So 4×10²⁶J.s^-1, is that a lot :)

Yep. It’s about 9×10¹⁰ megatons of TNT. I don’t know how many sydharbs it is, though :)

You know about watts, being an EE; a watt is 1J.s^-1.

Yeah, that last bit was a joke :)

The p-p chain reaction happens about 1038 times per second, converting 4 protons to alpha particles. Add all that up and you get almost 4×1026J.s-1.

When you say that bit, is that for the equivalent volume of a human body?

A thousand and thirty eight you say?

Wocky said:

sibeen said:

Wocky, what caught my eye was the second paragraph:

“This may look impressive but it is actually a pitifully small amount and runs extremely slowly: in fact a typical human body generates more heat output than does an equivalent volume of the sun’s core. The only reason that we get such an enormous amount of energy from the sun, is because it is so huge.”

Surely that can’t be right.

It’s a very lazy comment (a human body “generates more heat output” than the same volume of the sun over what period?) but it’s certainly true that it’s a pitiful amount of energy; it’s just that there’s so many reactions. The p-p chain reaction happens about 10³⁸ times per second, converting 4 protons to alpha particles. Add all that up and you get almost 4×10²⁶J.s^-1.

I was quite surprised by that, but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

On the other hand the power intensity at the surface is about 63 MW/m2, which is pretty hot.

Incidentally, if you scale that by (Radius Sun/ Radius Earth’s Orbit)^2 you get 1.36 kW/m^2, which suggests I’ve got my numbers about right.

The Rev Dodgson said:

but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

Is that supposed to be a milli or a Mega?

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

Is that supposed to be a milli or a Mega?

milli

1.93E-04 W/m2 is the actual number I get

Or J.s-1.m-2 if you prefer :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

Is that supposed to be a milli or a Mega?

milli

1.93E-04 W/m2 is the actual number I get

Or J.s-1.m-2 if you prefer :)

OK, that is surprising.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Is that supposed to be a milli or a Mega?

milli

1.93E-04 W/m2 is the actual number I get

Or J.s-1.m-2 if you prefer :)

OK, that is surprising.

So what’s going on in there anyway?

I mean the power density of an H bomb is Humungous, and I thought it was the same process happening inside the Sun.

Are you guys talking about the average density of the sun, or the density at the core?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

milli

1.93E-04 W/m2 is the actual number I get

Or J.s-1.m-2 if you prefer :)

OK, that is surprising.

So what’s going on in there anyway?

I mean the power density of an H bomb is Humungous, and I thought it was the same process happening inside the Sun.

Hold on, how did you change from kg to m^2?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

milli

1.93E-04 W/m2 is the actual number I get

Or J.s-1.m-2 if you prefer :)

OK, that is surprising.

So what’s going on in there anyway?

I mean the power density of an H bomb is Humungous, and I thought it was the same process happening inside the Sun.

Rough guess – the density of the atoms being fused?

Dropbear said:

Are you guys talking about the average density of the sun, or the density at the core?

Average for the Sun (i.e.total power output/total mass).

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

OK, that is surprising.

So what’s going on in there anyway?

I mean the power density of an H bomb is Humungous, and I thought it was the same process happening inside the Sun.

Hold on, how did you change from kg to m^2?

I divided the total power output by the total mass for W/kg and divided by surface area for W/m^2.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

Are you guys talking about the average density of the sun, or the density at the core?

Average for the Sun (i.e.total power output/total mass).

Seems like a meaningless value .. Fusion only happens at the very core

Dropbear said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

Are you guys talking about the average density of the sun, or the density at the core?

Average for the Sun (i.e.total power output/total mass).

Seems like a meaningless value .. Fusion only happens at the very core

OK, well maybe that answers my question about why the average power is so low.

They Might Be Giants..

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where hydrogen is built into helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees

Yo ho, it’s hot, the sun is not
A place where we could live
But here on earth thered be no life
Without the light it gives

We need it’s light
We need it’s heat
We need it’s energy
Without the sun, without a doubt
Thered be no you and me

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where hydrogen is built into helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees

The sun is hot

It is so hot that everything on it is a gas: iron, copper, aluminum, and many others.

The sun is large

If the sun were hollow, a million earths could fit inside. and yet, the sun is only a middle-sized star.

The sun is far away

About 93 million miles away, and that’s why it looks so small.

And even when it’s out of sight
The sun shines night and day

The sun gives heat
The sun gives light
The sunlight that we see
The sunlight comes from our own suns
Atomic energy

Scientists have found that the sun is a huge atom-smashing machine. the heat and light of the sun come from the nuclear reactions of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, and helium.*

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where hydrogen is built into helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees

youtube clip

We need it’s light
We need it’s heat
We need it’s energy

That scores at least a year in the Apostrophe Concentration Camp.

and then they did a back up song…

The sun is a miasma Of incandescent plasma The sun’s not simply made out of gas No, no, no The sun is a quagmire It’s not made of fire Forget what you’ve been told in the past

(Plasma!) Electrons are free (Plasma!) A fourth state of matter Not gas, not liquid, not solid Ooh!

The sun is no red dwarf I hope it never morphs Into some supernova’d collapsed orb Orb, orb, orb The sun is a miasma Of incandescent plasma I forget what I was told by myself Elf, elf, elf

(Plasma!) Electrons are free (Plasma!) A fourth state of matter Not gas, not liquid, not solid

(Plasma!) Forget that song (Plasma!) They got it wrong That thesis has been rendered invalid

youtube clip

>I was quite surprised by that, but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

OK, but a kg would occupy a very, vary small volume, so the power output of a m^3 would still be quite large.

sibeen said:

>I was quite surprised by that, but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

OK, but a kg would occupy a very, vary small volume, so the power output of a m^3 would still be quite large.

At the core yes, but I was working on average for the whole thing, which has quite a low density.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

>I was quite surprised by that, but Google + Excel tells me that the power density of the Sun is about 0.2 mW/kg, which is certainly pretty small.

OK, but a kg would occupy a very, vary small volume, so the power output of a m^3 would still be quite large.

At the core yes, but I was working on average for the whole thing, which has quite a low density.

Do you think it needs beefing up a bit?

>We need it’s light
We need it’s heat
We need it’s energy”

Gravity helps a bit too.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean the power density of an H bomb is Humungous, and I thought it was the same process happening inside the Sun.

Sort of. The reaction in an H bomb is more intense because it’s operating at a much higher pressure than the pressure in the solar core. Also, the fuel in a H bomb is deuterium (D) and tritium (T). D+D, D+T, and T+T reactions proceed much more rapidly than the p+p reaction, and as mentioned earlier, most of the time when p+p fuses the resulting He-2 falls apart almost immediately.

From Wikipedia

The core of the Sun is considered to extend from the center to about 0.2 to 0.25 solar radius. It is the hottest part of the Sun and of the Solar System. It has a density of up to 150 g/cm³ (150 times the density of liquid water) and a temperature of close to 15,000,000 kelvin, or about 15,000,000 degrees Celsius; by contrast, the surface of the Sun is close to 6,000 kelvin. The core is made of hot, dense gas in the plasmic state, at a pressure estimated at 265 billion bar (26.5 quadrillion pascals or 3.84 trillion psi). The core, inside 0.24 solar radius, generates 99% of the fusion power of the Sun.

[…]

The power production density of the core overall is similar to the metabolic production density of a reptile. The peak power production in the Sun’s center, per volume, has been compared to the volumetric heat generated in an active compost heap. The tremendous power output of the Sun is due not to its high power per volume, but rather to its gigantic size.

The low power outputs occurring inside the fusion core of the Sun may also be surprising, considering the large power which might be predicted by a simple application of the Stefan–Boltzmann law for temperatures of 10 to 15 million kelvin. However, layers of the Sun are radiating to outer layers only slightly lower in temperature, and it is this difference in radiation powers between layers which determines net power production and transfer in the solar core.

Has anyone mentioned the density of the Sun, yet?

The average density of the Sun is 1.4 times the density of water.
The density of the Sun’s core (modelled mathematically as a perfect gas) is 7 times the density of pure platinum.

mollwollfumble said:

Has anyone mentioned the density of the Sun, yet?

Yes.

pretty neat little video and a ten question quiz further down the page…

10/10