Cool video by CGP Grey on the Nocebo effect.
Cool video by CGP Grey on the Nocebo effect.
dv said:
Cool video by CGP Grey on the Nocebo effect.
Yay, it didn’t.
Does that mean I’m immune to nocebos?
Or just that particular one?
Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?
You don’t think that telling a person you’re treating them but then not doing it would be interpreted as fraud?
I know there are ‘alternative’ therapies who rely heavily upon fraud, but is that desirable?
The Rev Dodgson said:
dv said:
Cool video by CGP Grey on the Nocebo effect.Yay, it didn’t.
Does that mean I’m immune to nocebos?
Or just that particular one?
Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?
Of course I wouldn’t know but the fact that placebos have always worked should imply that the metabolisms were healing themselves by the brain being convinced that it was getting help via the placebos.
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?You don’t think that telling a person you’re treating them but then not doing it would be interpreted as fraud?
I know there are ‘alternative’ therapies who rely heavily upon fraud, but is that desirable?
The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?
Are they fraud if the practitioner believes in them? Or if the practitioner is intentionally using nocebo effect?
roughbarked said:
The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?
Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
Rule 303 said:
roughbarked said:The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
:) even if there is no basis for believing that they could work? The fact that they do should be enough?
roughbarked said:
even if there is no basis for believing that they could work? The fact that they do should be enough?
I’m not sure what you’re asking.
Rule 303 said:
roughbarked said:even if there is no basis for believing that they could work? The fact that they do should be enough?I’m not sure what you’re asking.
ie: say homeopathy. Science says that it doesn’t work but if it does actually work as a placebo..
roughbarked said:
ie: say homeopathy. Science says that it doesn’t work but if it does actually work as a placebo..
Yeah, I s’pose I think it either works or it doesn’t.
I can’t watch that video because of the annoying sound it makes..
An artifact-and-device (shaped by social environments back through bio-history) of the human organism tending extended nurturing and learning, or hyper-social/cultural-receptivity and more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
“…..Writing from his extensive experience of treating cancer (including more than 1,000 melanoma cases) at Sydney Hospital, Milton (1973) warned of the impact of the delivery of a prognosis, and how many of his patients, upon receiving their prognosis, simply turned their face to the wall and died an extremely premature death: “… there is a small group of patients in whom the realisation of impending death is a blow so terrible that they are quite unable to adjust to it, and they die rapidly before the malignancy seems to have developed enough to cause death. This problem of self-willed death is in some ways analogous to the death produced in primitive peoples by witchcraft (“Pointing the bone”).” (p.1435)….”
transition said:
An artifact-and-device (shaped by social environments back through bio-history) of the human organism tending extended nurturing and learning, or hyper-social/cultural-receptivity and more.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
“…..Writing from his extensive experience of treating cancer (including more than 1,000 melanoma cases) at Sydney Hospital, Milton (1973) warned of the impact of the delivery of a prognosis, and how many of his patients, upon receiving their prognosis, simply turned their face to the wall and died an extremely premature death: “… there is a small group of patients in whom the realisation of impending death is a blow so terrible that they are quite unable to adjust to it, and they die rapidly before the malignancy seems to have developed enough to cause death. This problem of self-willed death is in some ways analogous to the death produced in primitive peoples by witchcraft (“Pointing the bone”).” (p.1435)….”
ie: the will to live is the best effective treatment. I watched my father live for 18 years on the will to,live alone. After he gave that up, it was a matter of a week before he passed away and this week was largely due to the efforts of medical staff to keep him alive.
i have a headache now…
Gee I love that guy…
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?You don’t think that telling a person you’re treating them but then not doing it would be interpreted as fraud?
I know there are ‘alternative’ therapies who rely heavily upon fraud, but is that desirable?
But if the placebo effect has real effects, then you would be treating them, just not in the way that you said you were.
Also many “non-alternative” therapies also rely on the placebo effect.
Rule 303 said:
roughbarked said:The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
No, that’s how science is supposed to work.
In practice “alternatives” are often rejected even if they do work.
roughbarked said:
The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?
Yes, I think we should be doing that.
Equating a “scientific approach” with rejecting anything that does not have an obvious simple mechanism is not logical.
There are lots of things in medicine that work but whose mechanism we don’t know.
Another thought:
If the nocebo effect can be shown to have real effects in some people then how do we explain studies that show wind farm infra-sound has no adverse effects, even in communities where the claimed adverse effects have been widely publicised?
Are these studies reliable?
>If the nocebo effect can be shown to have real effects in some people then how do we explain studies that show wind farm infra-sound has no adverse effects, even in communities where the claimed adverse effects have been widely publicised?
I get vertigo just imagining those things.
Commentator 1-:Next on the blocks is our Aussie girl, Alex, in the Fall Down Hill final.
ting ting ting TING.
Commentator 1-: And she’s off and straight into a free fall
Commentator 2-: I’ve never seen her go down so quickly, brilliant
Commentator 1-: That looked like a Gillard fall with pike there, terrific work.
Commentator 2-: I’ll say, she’s totally out of control, legs flailing arms totally unco as if broken.
Commentator 1-: I think they are broke..
Commentator 2-: Brilliant.
Commentator 1-: Her uncoordination is breathtaking
Commentator 2-: She’s down again this time face first into a pile of rocks, is this a new one?
Commentator 1-: Yes it’s her new one, The Schumacher.
Commentator 2-: Now for the final ungracious glide to the line in front of the judges, face down, blood streaming from nose and ear.
Commentator 1-: She looks terrific, unconscious I’d say, this could be Gold, Gold for Australia.
trollolololol
transition said:
>If the nocebo effect can be shown to have real effects in some people then how do we explain studies that show wind farm infra-sound has no adverse effects, even in communities where the claimed adverse effects have been widely publicised?I get vertigo just imagining those things.
>Don’t try jungle surfing then.
That’s not you is it, Tamb. Not happy with the world right-way-up, mate.
transition said:
>Don’t try jungle surfing then.That’s not you is it, Tamb. Not happy with the world right-way-up, mate.
Non not me but I’ve done it up at Cape Tribulation. A real buzz.
I do like bats so maybe that has something to do with it too.
>I do like bats so maybe that has something to do with it too.
Turned laptop upsidedown for some relief :).
Go do a it here, motivation is in the doing apparently, well today anyway, shit night sleep.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
roughbarked said:The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
No, that’s how science is supposed to work.
In practice “alternatives” are often rejected even if they do work.
What alternatives would they be?
poikilotherm said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
No, that’s how science is supposed to work.
In practice “alternatives” are often rejected even if they do work.
What alternatives would they be?
Presumably all alternatives have some placebo effect, at least with some people, so presumably they all work (except for those where real negative effects are equal or greater).
I’ve not seen an alternative rejected if it worked in practice.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Another thought:If the nocebo effect can be shown to have real effects in some people then how do we explain studies that show wind farm infra-sound has no adverse effects, even in communities where the claimed adverse effects have been widely publicised?
Are these studies reliable?
Were the studies commissioned by Big Wind??
some work with some people is not how I would categorise a successful therapy. Particularly when more than some forgo therapies that do work for most people to partake in the alternative…
The Rev Dodgson said:
But if the placebo effect has real effects, then you would be treating them, just not in the way that you said you were.
The problem is that all reliable studies indicate they don’t work or have real effects (and yes, I know Wikipedia and lots of doctors and pretty much everything else claims they can work – they are all wrong).
When a placebo given as medicine is classified as “working”, the studies show that generally something else is going on (e.g. the patient would have gotten better in the same time frame without the placebo).
Placebo’s are used by 1/ doctors who think they work and prescribe them based on that, 2/ doctors who don’t think they work but think that the patient will be happier with their consultation if they are prescribed a pill, and 3/ researchers who require the placebo as a control measure for things like researcher bias and inaccurate patient reporting – The usefulness of placebo’s in this research depends on the fact that placebo’s do not work or have any real effects.
There is always the possibility that research misses something, and that a medicine prescribed as a placebo is having an effect. This is simply a case of a medicine being mis-identified as a placebo. If and when that is corrected, the medicine would by definition no longer be considered a placebo.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
roughbarked said:The same should go for alternative therapies. If they work despite all the scientific evidence that says they shouldn’t then perhaps we should be looking at the relationship between the brain and the body?Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
No, that’s how science is supposed to work.
In practice “alternatives” are often rejected even if they do work.
e.g?
dv said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
No, that’s how science is supposed to work.
In practice “alternatives” are often rejected even if they do work.
e.g?
ID: 492663
esselte said:
The Rev Dodgson said:But if the placebo effect has real effects, then you would be treating them, just not in the way that you said you were.
The problem is that all reliable studies indicate they don’t work or have real effects (and yes, I know Wikipedia and lots of doctors and pretty much everything else claims they can work – they are all wrong).
When a placebo given as medicine is classified as “working”, the studies show that generally something else is going on (e.g. the patient would have gotten better in the same time frame without the placebo).
Placebo’s are used by 1/ doctors who think they work and prescribe them based on that, 2/ doctors who don’t think they work but think that the patient will be happier with their consultation if they are prescribed a pill, and 3/ researchers who require the placebo as a control measure for things like researcher bias and inaccurate patient reporting – The usefulness of placebo’s in this research depends on the fact that placebo’s do not work or have any real effects.
There is always the possibility that research misses something, and that a medicine prescribed as a placebo is having an effect. This is simply a case of a medicine being mis-identified as a placebo. If and when that is corrected, the medicine would by definition no longer be considered a placebo.
I’m not even remotely close to an expert in this area, but as far as I have seen (which obviously is not very far), when people investigate whether placebos have any effect, they find that they do.
How this ties in with the vast number of experiments where it is just assumed that they don’t work, I don’t know, but it seems like an area worth investigating, rather than dismissing the whole thing.
The Rev Dodgson said:
esselte said:
The Rev Dodgson said:But if the placebo effect has real effects, then you would be treating them, just not in the way that you said you were.
The problem is that all reliable studies indicate they don’t work or have real effects (and yes, I know Wikipedia and lots of doctors and pretty much everything else claims they can work – they are all wrong).
When a placebo given as medicine is classified as “working”, the studies show that generally something else is going on (e.g. the patient would have gotten better in the same time frame without the placebo).
Placebo’s are used by 1/ doctors who think they work and prescribe them based on that, 2/ doctors who don’t think they work but think that the patient will be happier with their consultation if they are prescribed a pill, and 3/ researchers who require the placebo as a control measure for things like researcher bias and inaccurate patient reporting – The usefulness of placebo’s in this research depends on the fact that placebo’s do not work or have any real effects.
There is always the possibility that research misses something, and that a medicine prescribed as a placebo is having an effect. This is simply a case of a medicine being mis-identified as a placebo. If and when that is corrected, the medicine would by definition no longer be considered a placebo.
I’m not even remotely close to an expert in this area, but as far as I have seen (which obviously is not very far), when people investigate whether placebos have any effect, they find that they do.
How this ties in with the vast number of experiments where it is just assumed that they don’t work, I don’t know, but it seems like an area worth investigating, rather than dismissing the whole thing.
I don’t think studies set out thinking placebos don’t work per se, but want to check what they are doing, is better than just doing ‘something’.
dv said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:Alternative therapies that work are called… Therapies.
That’s how Science works.
:-)
No, that’s how science is supposed to work.
In practice “alternatives” are often rejected even if they do work.
e.g?
As said earlier, if placebos have some beneficial effect, then any alternative treatment that is capable of acting as a placebo will have some beneficial effect.
But if you would like a specific example, chiropractic treatment has often been found to be at least as effective as physiotherapy, or other mainstream medical treatments,
Scientific studies show that participating in Internet discussion forums has a negative effect on paid work output.
So I’m now taking steps to avoid this pernicious nocebo effect.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Scientific studies show that participating in Internet discussion forums has a negative effect on paid work output.So I’m now taking steps to avoid this pernicious nocebo effect.
lol
The Rev Dodgson said:
I’m not even remotely close to an expert in this area, but as far as I have seen (which obviously is not very far), when people investigate whether placebos have any effect, they find that they do.
How this ties in with the vast number of experiments where it is just assumed that they don’t work, I don’t know, but it seems like an area worth investigating, rather than dismissing the whole thing.
I’m not an expert either. The general misunderstanding of the Placebo Effect is a bugbear of mine, and this could very well mean that the Google-fu research I have done on it is full of my own biases (confirmation bias for example).
It’s also true that anything I write about the Placebo Effect is a simplistic account of what is a complex question.
————————————-
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-placebo-effect/
“In order to demystify the placebo effect, I will try to first describe exactly what it is. The operational definition of a placebo effect is any health effect measured after an intervention that is something other than a physiological response to a biologically active treatment. In clinical trials the placebo effect is any measured response in the group of study subjects that received an inert treatment, such as a sugar pill. However, “the placebo effect” is a misnomer and contributes to confusion, because it is not a single effect but the net result of many possible factors.
“The various factors that contribute to a measured or perceived placebo effect vary depending upon the situation – what symptoms or outcomes are being observed. Subjective outcomes like pain, fatigue, and an overall sense of wellbeing, are subject to a host of psychological factors. For example, subjects in clinical studies want to get better, they want to believe they are on the active experimental treatment and that it works, they want to feel that the time and effort they have invested is worthwhile, and they want to make the researchers happy. In turn, the researchers want their treatment to work and want to see their patients get better. So there is often a large reporting bias. In other words, subjects are likely to convince themselves they feel better, and to report that they feel better, even if they don’t. Also, those conducting a trial will tend to make biased observations in favor of a positive effect.
“It has also been clearly demonstrated that subjects who are being studied in a clinical trial objectively do better. This is because they are in a clinical trial – they are paying closer attention to their overall health, they are likely taking better care of themselves due to the constant reminder of their health and habits provided by the study visits and attention they are getting, they are being examined on a regular basis by a physician, and their overall compliance with treatment is likely to be higher. So basically, subjects in a trial take better care of themselves and get more medical attention than people not in trials. If for those not in a clinical trial, if they decide to do something about their health by starting a new treatment, they are likely to engage in more healthful behavior in other ways.
“A common belief is that the placebo effect is largely a “mind-over-matter effect,” but this is a misconception. There is no compelling evidence that the mind can create healing simply through will or belief. However, mood and belief can have a significant effect on the subjective perception of pain. There is no method to directly measure pain as a phenomenon, and studies of pain are dependent upon the subjective report of subjects. There is therefore a large potential for perception and reporting bias in pain trials. But there are biological mechanisms by which mental processes can affect pain. There are many non-specific factors that can biochemically suppress pain. For example, increased physical activity can release endorphins that naturally inhibit pain. For these reasons the placebo effect for pain is typically high, around 30%.
“But the more concrete and physiological the outcome, the smaller the placebo effect. Survival from serious forms of cancer, for example, has no demonstrable placebo effect. There is a “clinical trial effect,” as described above – being a subject in a trial tends to improve care and compliance, but no placebo effect beyond that. There is no compelling evidence that mood or thought alone can help fight off cancer or any similar disease.
“Other conditions are more objective than pain, but are special because they have a strong influence from the neuro-endocrine system. This system translates psychological stress into physical stress, by releasing stress hormones and increasing activity in the sympathetic nervous system. So, for example, for heart disease mood matters quite a bit. Someone who has an A-type personality and is always angry and upset is at higher risk of a heart attack than someone who is mellow and unstressed. But here there is a known physiological connection between mood and a specific organ – the heart. This cannot be extrapolated to other diseases; it doesn’t mean you can smile your cancer away.
“Many people talk about the neuroendocrine system’s effect on the immune system. Again, here there is a physiological connection. Stress hormones do suppress the immune system, and it is probably true that extreme stress leaves us physically susceptible to disease for this reason. But the effects of moderate levels of stress are not established. Also, we cannot extrapolate from the risk of getting a cold to the ability to fight off cancer. You have to look at the evidence for each disease unto itself. So while this is a potential contributor, it is overall probably a small effect except in extreme situations….
“Therefore the placebo effect is fairly complex and is largely an artifact (sic) of observation and confounding factors. Any real benefits that contribute to the placebo effect can be gained by more straightforward methods – like healthy habits, compliance with treatment, and good health care. The placebo effect is not evidence for any mysterious mind-over-matter effect, but since the mind is matter (the brain) and is connected to the rest of the body, there are some known physiological effects that do play a role (although often greatly exaggerated).”
poikilotherm said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Scientific studies show that participating in Internet discussion forums has a negative effect on paid work output.So I’m now taking steps to avoid this pernicious nocebo effect.
lol
We should all take heed. ;)
roughbarked said:
poikilotherm said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Scientific studies show that participating in Internet discussion forums has a negative effect on paid work output.So I’m now taking steps to avoid this pernicious nocebo effect.
lol
We should all take heed. ;)
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
poikilotherm said:lol
We should all take heed. ;)
I’ve just done another stint on the Mac. Now I’m doing stress relief on this forum with a real computer.
So what’s wrong with the Mac? real issues please, not favouritism.
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:We should all take heed. ;)
I’ve just done another stint on the Mac. Now I’m doing stress relief on this forum with a real computer.So what’s wrong with the Mac? real issues please, not favouritism.
The program we were given is clunky & very slow to use. There does not seem to be any way I can do Ctrl/F to find something inside a large document.
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:I’ve just done another stint on the Mac. Now I’m doing stress relief on this forum with a real computer.
So what’s wrong with the Mac? real issues please, not favouritism.
The program we were given is clunky & very slow to use. There does not seem to be any way I can do Ctrl/F to find something inside a large document.
So it is the program? or is it that on a Mac Ctrl/F reads as Command/F ?
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:So what’s wrong with the Mac? real issues please, not favouritism.
The program we were given is clunky & very slow to use. There does not seem to be any way I can do Ctrl/F to find something inside a large document.
So it is the program? or is it that on a Mac Ctrl/F reads as Command/F ?
I’ve just tried all the XXX/f combinations & nothing works. It appears to be the program.
What I have is a long list (about 800 items) & I want to find specific items in the list.
This is not the right thread for this so I’ll repost in chat.
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:The program we were given is clunky & very slow to use. There does not seem to be any way I can do Ctrl/F to find something inside a large document.
So it is the program? or is it that on a Mac Ctrl/F reads as Command/F ?
I’ve just tried all the XXX/f combinations & nothing works. It appears to be the program.
What I have is a long list (about 800 items) & I want to find specific items in the list.
This is not the right thread for this so I’ll repost in chat.
I’ve already copied it to there.
roughbarked said:
poikilotherm said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Scientific studies show that participating in Internet discussion forums has a negative effect on paid work output.So I’m now taking steps to avoid this pernicious nocebo effect.
lol
We should all take heed. ;)
Presumably all alternatives have some placebo effect, at least with some people, so presumably they all work (except for those where real negative effects are equal or greater).
———————————————————
So well written.
So much so you started to sound like a Doctor.
How this ties in with the vast number of experiments where it is just assumed that they don’t work, I don’t know,
_______________________________________
Try convincing brand names like Panadol to change to well i don’t know, maybe the GlaxoSmithKline pill…
> Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?
We’re making greater use of placebos all the time, this is the post-modern age. Common placebos include:
Vitamin pills
Omega 3
Glucosamine
Herbal medicine
“Ethical nutrients”
Goat soap with manuka honey
etc.
mollwollfumble said:
> Doesn’t this video suggest we should also be making greater use of placebos?We’re making greater use of placebos all the time, this is the post-modern age. Common placebos include:
Vitamin pills
Omega 3
Glucosamine
Herbal medicine
“Ethical nutrients”
Goat soap with manuka honey
etc.
Glucosamine? I thought there was clinical evidence supporting that. Same as Omega 3…
:) herbal medicine.. all those marijuana users will ask then why does it make my eyes red?
roughbarked said:
all those marijuana users will ask then why does it make my eyes red?
It’s the cure for having non-red eyes.
Rule 303 said:
roughbarked said:all those marijuana users will ask then why does it make my eyes red?
It’s the cure for having non-red eyes.
Point and shoot photographers should hand out maryjane before they start pointing and shooting?