According to this link
dingos are a separate species from dogs and did not descend from wolves.

What are the features that make them separate (whilst allowing say Poodles and Great Danes to be the same species)?

When did dogs and dingos separate, and what was their common ancestor?

When did dogs separate from wolves (or from their common ancestor, if they were not wolves)?

What was the immediate ancestor of dingos, and when did they separate?

I thought domestic dogs and dingos could interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Is this no longer the test for being the same species?

What Wiki says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo

The dingo (Canis lupus dingo) is a free-ranging dog found mainly in Australia, as well as Southeast Asia, where it is said to have originated. It is currently classified as a subspecies of the grey wolf, Canis lupus….

…Since its first official nomenclature in 1792 (Canis antarcticus), the scientific name of the dingo has changed several times.

Current taxonomy classifies the Australian dingo, together with its closest relatives outside of Australia, as Canis lupus dingo, a subspecies of grey wolf separate from the familiar common dog, Canis lupus familiaris, while still united with familiaris as an intrataxonomic clade called “domestic dog”. An older taxonomy, used throughout most of the 20th century, applied the epithet Canis familiaris dingo. This taxonomy assumed that domestic dogs are a distinct species from the grey wolf, with the dingo classified as a subspecies of domestic dog. However, the term Canis dingo, which classifies the dingo as a separate species from both dogs and wolves has gained support in 2014 in a study that established a reference description of the dingo based on pre-20th century specimens that are unlikely to have been influenced by hybridization. The dingo differs from the domestic dog by relatively larger palatal width, relatively longer rostrum, relatively shorter skull height and relatively wider top ridge of skull. A sample of 19th century dingo skins the study examined suggests that there was considerable variability in the colour of dingoes and included various combinations of yellow, white, ginger and darker variations from tan to black. Although it remained difficult to provide consistent and clear diagnostic features, the study placed morphological limits on what can be considered a dingo..

party_pants said:

I thought domestic dogs and dingos could interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Is this no longer the test for being the same species?

Well it’s a bit of a fuzzy definition, but since dogs and dingos interbreed freely (as far as I know) and usually produce fertile offspring (afaik), it seems to me they should be well on the “same species” side of the fuzzy line.

But I know little of these things.

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

I thought domestic dogs and dingos could interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Is this no longer the test for being the same species?

Well it’s a bit of a fuzzy definition, but since dogs and dingos interbreed freely (as far as I know) and usually produce fertile offspring (afaik), it seems to me they should be well on the “same species” side of the fuzzy line.

But I know little of these things.

I’d agree with that ‘definition’

transition said:

What Wiki says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo

The dingo (Canis lupus dingo) is a free-ranging dog found mainly in Australia, as well as Southeast Asia, where it is said to have originated. It is currently classified as a subspecies of the grey wolf, Canis lupus….

…Since its first official nomenclature in 1792 (Canis antarcticus), the scientific name of the dingo has changed several times.

Current taxonomy classifies the Australian dingo, together with its closest relatives outside of Australia, as Canis lupus dingo, a subspecies of grey wolf separate from the familiar common dog, Canis lupus familiaris, while still united with familiaris as an intrataxonomic clade called “domestic dog”. An older taxonomy, used throughout most of the 20th century, applied the epithet Canis familiaris dingo. This taxonomy assumed that domestic dogs are a distinct species from the grey wolf, with the dingo classified as a subspecies of domestic dog. However, the term Canis dingo, which classifies the dingo as a separate species from both dogs and wolves has gained support in 2014 in a study that established a reference description of the dingo based on pre-20th century specimens that are unlikely to have been influenced by hybridization. The dingo differs from the domestic dog by relatively larger palatal width, relatively longer rostrum, relatively shorter skull height and relatively wider top ridge of skull. A sample of 19th century dingo skins the study examined suggests that there was considerable variability in the colour of dingoes and included various combinations of yellow, white, ginger and darker variations from tan to black. Although it remained difficult to provide consistent and clear diagnostic features, the study placed morphological limits on what can be considered a dingo..

I think that may have been updated since I looked at it 1/2 and hour ago (that or I just didn’t read it all).

It seems a mystery to me how such measurements can make the dingo a separate species, whilst allowing the poodle, the german shepherd and the pug to be the same species.

Looking at the wiki page, it shows dingos as being widespread across SE Asia (which I didn’t know).

Is the SE Asian dingo the same species as the Australian dingo?

No one knows my Lord, no one.

>It seems a mystery to me how such measurements can make the dingo a separate species, whilst allowing the poodle, the german shepherd and the pug to be the same species.

Presumably a matter of descent, with dingoes and grey wolves sharing a common (extinct) ancestor.

The Rev Dodgson said:

According to this link
dingos are a separate species from dogs and did not descend from wolves.

What are the features that make them separate (whilst allowing say Poodles and Great Danes to be the same species)?

When did dogs and dingos separate, and what was their common ancestor?

When did dogs separate from wolves (or from their common ancestor, if they were not wolves)?

What was the immediate ancestor of dingos, and when did they separate?

I’ll be extremely surprised if this stands up. They are completely interbreedable with (other) dogs. They are identical to the wild dogs of south east Asia and are usually identified as the same sub-species as the wild dogs of south east Asia. (It is thought that, basically, the dingoes were the wild dogs of south east Asia brought to Australia fairly recently by people from south east Asia.)

These two guys are ecologists. This kind of work is not their specialty.

Bubblecar said:

>It seems a mystery to me how such measurements can make the dingo a separate species, whilst allowing the poodle, the german shepherd and the pug to be the same species.

Presumably a matter of descent, with dingoes and grey wolves sharing a common (extinct) ancestor.

Well:

“The origin of the domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) began with the domestication of the Grey Wolf (Canis lupus) several tens of thousands of years ago. Genetic and archaeological evidence shows that humans domesticated wolves on more than one occasion, with the present lineage of C. l. familiaris arising at the latest 15,000 years ago as evidenced by the Bonn-Oberkassel site and possibly as early as 33,000 years ago as evidenced by the mtDNA testing on a paleolithic dog’s remains from the Razboinichya Cave (Altai Mountains).”

So if dingos did separate from wolves before domestic dogs did, I wonder when and where they did it.

A more correct interpretation is the following. Genetic sequencing has now been done for nuclear DNA of many dogs and wolves. The genetic variation of the dog species is huge, and wolves of all types (Grey, Indian etc.) form a much smaller subset of the dog family. I (and other scientists) have concluded that the dog evolved first – geographic separation accounts for the great amount of both genetic and physical diversity among dogs. Wolves are far less diverse so evolved far more recently. The dog diversity is best seen in the toy breeds (Pekinese etc.) that developed in China and elsewhere in east Asia, the tall thin (Greyhound etc.) that evolved in northern Africa, and the flat faced (mastiff etc.) that evolved in Europe, and the wolf-like dogs. Interbreeding has tended to reduce the diversity of appearance of dogs, rather than increase it.

All wolves evolved from a small group of dogs.

The dingo seems to me to be a typical domestic dog, definitely not deserving of separate species status. It interbreeds freely with other Canis lupus subspecies.

However, I totally applaud the scientific effort “To determine exactly what makes a dingo a dingo, Dr Crowther and his team tracked down 19th century specimens that lived before interbreeding with European dogs became widespread.”

I am a bit disappointed (though, given that it is the SMH, not very) that the journalist is presenting this new work as though the results have already been widely accepted.

dv said:

I am a bit disappointed (though, given that it is the SMH, not very) that the journalist is presenting this new work as though the results have already been widely accepted.

Yes, I probably should have waited for it to appear in the Daily Mail before starting the discussion (:)).

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

I am a bit disappointed (though, given that it is the SMH, not very) that the journalist is presenting this new work as though the results have already been widely accepted.

Yes, I probably should have waited for it to appear in the Daily Mail before starting the discussion (:)).

I didn’t check the Illawarra Mercury site

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

I am a bit disappointed (though, given that it is the SMH, not very) that the journalist is presenting this new work as though the results have already been widely accepted.

Yes, I probably should have waited for it to appear in the Daily Mail before starting the discussion (:)).

I didn’t check the Illawarra Mercury site

Possibly a better report here:
Not the Illawarra Mercury

I’ll thank you to capitalize the P:

I’m a Pug!

(Come on, you all knew that was going to happen! I haven’t posted that one for a few months now)

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

I am a bit disappointed (though, given that it is the SMH, not very) that the journalist is presenting this new work as though the results have already been widely accepted.

Yes, I probably should have waited for it to appear in the Daily Mail before starting the discussion (:)).

I didn’t check the Illawarra Mercury site

Try the Guardian.

Well they aint Pussy Cats either!

bob(from black rock) said:

Well they aint Pussy Cats either!

Or Budgies.

buffy said:

I’ll thank you to capitalize the P:

I’m a Pug!

(Come on, you all knew that was going to happen! I haven’t posted that one for a few months now)

A visual definition of Megapugly.

bob(from black rock) said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Well they aint Pussy Cats either!

Or Budgies.

What then, are barking owls?

Tamb said:

bob(from black rock) said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Well they aint Pussy Cats either!

Or Budgies.

What then, are barking owls?

.
Nothing I would want to encounter whilst sober.

bob(from black rock) said:

Tamb said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Or Budgies.

What then, are barking owls?

.
Nothing I would want to encounter whilst sober.

Here’s one to start with:

Just because two species can breed and produce fertile pups does not mean they are actually the same species, but only closely related and not able to breed because of other factors, like geological separation. This distinction is more common with plants, which might be separated by habitat type, geological features or flowering times. Dingos and other animals however are far more mobile and able to cross most barriers that would stop the movement of plants.

The Dingo has been regarded as a pure bred animal, whereas dogs have been purposely breed to encourage some features and/or discourage others. The dingo was thought to have originated from the Indian Wolf, a subspecies of the Grey Wolf, although this may now be revised.

There are a number of differences between the dingo and domestic dog, especially the width of the head and the number of teeth, plus their reproduction behaviour, where there is an alpha male and female who are the only ones to breed in a season and the rest of the pack help raise them. Also the dingo has only one litter per year, while the dog can have two.

party_pants said:

I thought domestic dogs and dingos could interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Is this no longer the test for being the same species?

It’s a good rule-of-thumb, but it’s not perfect, since there are many examples of related species that can interbreed to produce fertile offspring, although the fertility of such hybrids is generally low.

Also, the interbreeding test is pretty useless for species that do not reproduce sexually.

From Wikipedia

In biology, a species (plural: species) is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem .

PM 2Ring said:

From Wikipedia

In biology, a species (plural: species) is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem .

Yeah, I was just having a read of that. Seems that definition of “species” had been a fraught issue for a while…

“… I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties” Darwin 1859

“Of late, the futility of attempts to find a universally valid criterion for distinguishing species has come to be fairly generally, if reluctantly, recognized” Dobzhansky (1937)

“The species problem is the long-standing failure of biologists to agree on how we should identify species and how we should define the word ‘species’.” Hey (2001)

Ian said:

PM 2Ring said:

From Wikipedia

In biology, a species (plural: species) is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem .

Yeah, I was just having a read of that. Seems that definition of “species” had been a fraught issue for a while…

“… I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties” Darwin 1859

“Of late, the futility of attempts to find a universally valid criterion for distinguishing species has come to be fairly generally, if reluctantly, recognized” Dobzhansky (1937)

“The species problem is the long-standing failure of biologists to agree on how we should identify species and how we should define the word ‘species’.” Hey (2001)

It is the Taxonomist that decided where the line is drawn between one species and another, which is to say it is personal opinion of the person doing the classifying. Taxonomists come in two forms, the lumper and the splitter, with the former lumping all closely related forms into the single species, whilst the splitter will classify most distinct varieties into different species. In recent years many plants that were placed as subspecies, have been reclassified to separate species. A few have gone the other way, but most have been given species status.

PermeateFree said:

plus their reproduction behaviour, where there is an alpha male and female who are the only ones to breed in a season and the rest of the pack help raise them. Also the dingo has only one litter per year, while the dog can have two.

Yes I was wondering when that would come up. What it effectively means is that dingoes don’t readily breed with other species of dogs though indeed it can happen, it cannot happen as easily as some are suggesting here.

Dogs can breed with German Shepherds, apparently.

I’ve got a “Cave Canem” sign on my back gate. It’s there so only classically trained thieves won’t get get torn asunder by Gypsy.

We have a sign that says “Vorsicht! Bissiger Hund!” But it isn’t on the gate, it’s in the shed. It is possible to get into trouble admitting to a dog that bites. And ours don’t, in normal circumstances, anyway.

Well, the Pug might, but he’d be hard put to do much damage.