Australia’s War On Science

SYDNEY — Scientists here in Australia say they’ve discovered their foe: Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

Since he came to power in September, some of Australia’s finest researchers point out that their budgets have been slashed. They say their expertise is being ignored in favor of the views of skeptics with a dubious commitment to the facts.

Now the science community is speaking out over fears that the government’s first annual budget could see a raft of further cuts at world-class research facilities, leading Australia to lose its reputation for cutting edge science and medical research.

more…

Funding, it’s not rocket science
April 16, 2014 – 11:45PM
Suzanne Cory

It’s hard to think of any one politician who had more of an impact on the Liberal Party tradition. But just as influential was Menzies’ impact on science and research in Australia.

Under his leadership, war and depression gave way to a new kind of scientific optimism. He led a massive expansion of Australia’s scientific research capacity, was involved in the creation of the Australian Academy of Science, and funded the building of important infrastructure such as the giant radio telescope at Parkes and the phytotron in Canberra. He also oversaw a tenfold increase in the budget of the newly formed CSIRO in just 15 years.

In 1958, Menzies predicted: ‘‘If there’s one thing that shines out in the history of this century it is the enormous capacity of science to expand its boundaries. By the end of this century … the boundaries of knowledge will have been pushed back to places as yet unseen and unimagined.’‘

Menzies was right. Advances in science and technology over the past 50 years or so have totally transformed the economic and cultural life of Australia. Unfortunately, such capacity for long-term vision is increasingly rare in Australian politics. As we head into this next federal budget, most in the scientific community fear the worst, with reports and rumours of massive cuts to the CSIRO and other research agencies.

Read more:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/funding-its-not-rocket-science-20140416-zqvda.html#ixzz2z63rtFD2

Menzies was right.

He also had a great capacity for taking bits of Labor’s platform and of their ideas, and adopting them as his own.

Not one for appointing many brilliant ministers, Menzies rarely received good ideas from within his own government. Indeed, as his famous quote about how he liked to “keep ministers talking: if they stop, they may start to think” shows, he had little faith in their abilities to provide ideas.

He was indeed fortunate that a Labor government had done most of the hard yards in the immediate post-war years.

Coffee finished.

Garden work calls.

A-a-a-a-nd, wrong thread. Sorry.

It’s of little surprise that public funds for R&D have been reduced.

It’s an easy area to find budget savings especially when it has such little immediate impact on the overall state of the economy.

I think the hard decision to make in Australia at the moment are not so much related to spending, but more related to government income.

Someone should tell Capt. Abbott and his motley crew that the economy matters, but other things are also important.

PermeateFree said:

Someone should tell Capt. Abbott and his motley crew that the economy matters, but other things are also important.

Perm, i think that you need to understand that only some parts of the economy are important to Abbott and Co.

The rest can go to buggery, except in so far as they can support the bits that ‘matter’.

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

Someone should tell Capt. Abbott and his motley crew that the economy matters, but other things are also important.

Perm, i think that you need to understand that only some parts of the economy are important to Abbott and Co.

The rest can go to buggery, except in so far as they can support the bits that ‘matter’.

You mean its even worse than I thought?

PermeateFree said:

You mean its even worse than I thought?

Yes. But, it’s no worse than the majority of the masochistic Australian electorate wished on themselves.

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

You mean its even worse than I thought?

Yes. But, it’s no worse than the majority of the masochistic Australian electorate wished on themselves.

Perhaps we should stop the brain drain and refrain from sending sheep overseas.

PermeateFree said:

Perhaps we should stop the brain drain and refrain from sending sheep overseas.

No, continue exporting sheep. That way, there might be fewer of them to vote next time.

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

Perhaps we should stop the brain drain and refrain from sending sheep overseas.

No, continue exporting sheep. That way, there might be fewer of them to vote next time.

Can’t beat that one.

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

Perhaps we should stop the brain drain and refrain from sending sheep overseas.

No, continue exporting sheep. That way, there might be fewer of them to vote next time.

Can’t beat that one.

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Spiny Norman said:

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

No, continue exporting sheep. That way, there might be fewer of them to vote next time.

Can’t beat that one.

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Paste eating greenies in the red corner and crazy rich mining magnates in the blue corner.

What a choice.

scott ludlam mseems to be pretty good from what i’ve seen of him.

Spiny Norman said:

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

No, continue exporting sheep. That way, there might be fewer of them to vote next time.

Can’t beat that one.

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

PermeateFree said:

Can’t beat that one.

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

The Greens are vote for the destruction of Australia, they are perhaps worse than the ALP/LNP.
There are quite a number of very good & clever parties out there, but you have to search for them. Most of them are better in every way than the LNP & ALP.

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

The Greens are vote for the destruction of Australia, they are perhaps worse than the ALP/LNP.
There are quite a number of very good & clever parties out there, but you have to search for them. Most of them are better in every way than the LNP & ALP.

Name four.

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

The Greens are vote for the destruction of Australia, they are perhaps worse than the ALP/LNP.
There are quite a number of very good & clever parties out there, but you have to search for them. Most of them are better in every way than the LNP & ALP.

I did research a lot of minor parties at the last election. Most of them had policies up on their websites, nearly all of them had a big deal-breaker in there somewhere and I ruled out one at a time.

In the end I just drew a cock and balls on my ballot paper.

you anarchist p_p.

poikilotherm said:

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

The Greens are vote for the destruction of Australia, they are perhaps worse than the ALP/LNP.
There are quite a number of very good & clever parties out there, but you have to search for them. Most of them are better in every way than the LNP & ALP.

Name four.

I had the Euthanasia Party ring me up for support before the WA Elections, but I didn’t vote for them as I don’t think they had much of a future.

poikilotherm said:

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

The Greens are vote for the destruction of Australia, they are perhaps worse than the ALP/LNP.
There are quite a number of very good & clever parties out there, but you have to search for them. Most of them are better in every way than the LNP & ALP.

Name four.

LDP, 21st Century Australia Party ….. I had others bookmarked but can’t find them in a hurry sorry.
They are there, look for them/.

ChrispenEvan said:

you anarchist p_p.

I’ve been called worse.

Spiny Norman said:

poikilotherm said:

Spiny Norman said:

The Greens are vote for the destruction of Australia, they are perhaps worse than the ALP/LNP.
There are quite a number of very good & clever parties out there, but you have to search for them. Most of them are better in every way than the LNP & ALP.

Name four.

LDP, 21st Century Australia Party ….. I had others bookmarked but can’t find them in a hurry sorry.
They are there, look for them/.

21C party is a crock of shit. Jamie McIntyre is a douchebag.

and their website doesn’t seem to be up.

Divine Angel said:

Spiny Norman said:

poikilotherm said:

Name four.

LDP, 21st Century Australia Party ….. I had others bookmarked but can’t find them in a hurry sorry.
They are there, look for them/.

21C party is a crock of shit. Jamie McIntyre is a douchebag.

Bit harsh.

ChrispenEvan said:

and their website doesn’t seem to be up.

any minor party without a website doesn’t deserve vote.

Divine Angel said:

Spiny Norman said:

poikilotherm said:

Name four.

LDP, 21st Century Australia Party ….. I had others bookmarked but can’t find them in a hurry sorry.
They are there, look for them/.

21C party is a crock of shit. Jamie McIntyre is a douchebag.

lulz, IKR

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/07-215+ASIC+finalises+proceedings+with+Jamie+McIntyre?openDocument

The LDP advocates an immediate end to government ownership of business enterprises including the ABC, SBS, Australia Post, Medibank Private, electricity generation and public transport services.

that’ll end well.

ChrispenEvan said:

The LDP advocates an immediate end to government ownership of business enterprises including the ABC, SBS, Australia Post, Medibank Private, electricity generation and public transport services.

that’ll end well.

Indeed, they have teh smats.

Jamie McIntyre runs 21st Century Academy. They have a website which seems to be down at the moment… but basically it’s a bunch of businesses running seminars which pull people in to use their products/services and J McI takes a cut. One such business associated under the 21CA umbrella was Aussie Rob

However, I have met Jamie several times and he is a douchebag. He’s not actually interested in helping others achieve financial success, only himself.

ChrispenEvan said:

The LDP advocates an immediate end to government ownership of business enterprises including the ABC, SBS, Australia Post, Medibank Private, electricity generation and public transport services.

that’ll end well.

That’s the sort of deal-breaker policies I’m talking about. Nearly every minor party has some bullshit like that.

The Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) believes: Sport, hunting and self-defence are all legitimate reasons for firearm ownership. Firearm ownership should be subject to possession of a licence. However, all adults over 18 years of age have a right to a licence unless it has been removed because of a history or genuine prospect of coercion. Those who wish to carry a concealed firearm for self-defence are entitled to be issued with a permit to do so unless they have a history or genuine prospect of coercion. All genuine sporting uses of firearms are legitimate. There should be no registration of long-arms. There should be no prohibitions or special limits on semi-automatic firearms. Individuals and organisations are entitled to establish facilities that involve the use of firearms. This includes shooting ranges and hunting reserves. Impediments to children participating in safe shooting activities should be removed. Airsoft and paintball should be deregulated apart from measures to protect innocent bystanders.

their gun control sounds like america. the more guns the safer it is.

ChrispenEvan said:

their gun control sounds like america. the more guns the safer it is.

…. war is a legitimate means of gaining economic superiority don’tcha know????

party_pants said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The LDP advocates an immediate end to government ownership of business enterprises including the ABC, SBS, Australia Post, Medibank Private, electricity generation and public transport services.

that’ll end well.

That’s the sort of deal-breaker policies I’m talking about. Nearly every minor party has some bullshit like that.

No one party is going to be 100% right for you, but the stranglehold of the ALP/LNP has to be broken. They are just making things worse and worse as time goes by. We are losing our freedoms (the TPP has been signed, VLAD, etc) and they just get more and more money for doing things that make like worse for us.
A vote for anyone else first and putting the ALP/LNP last on the ballot paper sends them the clear message they they aren’t doing a good enough job.

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The LDP advocates an immediate end to government ownership of business enterprises including the ABC, SBS, Australia Post, Medibank Private, electricity generation and public transport services.

that’ll end well.

That’s the sort of deal-breaker policies I’m talking about. Nearly every minor party has some bullshit like that.

No one party is going to be 100% right for you, but the stranglehold of the ALP/LNP has to be broken. They are just making things worse and worse as time goes by. We are losing our freedoms (the TPP has been signed, VLAD, etc) and they just get more and more money for doing things that make like worse for us.
A vote for anyone else first and putting the ALP/LNP last on the ballot paper sends them the clear message they they aren’t doing a good enough job.

first you have to convince all those who worry about civilization crumbling that life goes on even if you make a stand.

Postpocelipse said:

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

That’s the sort of deal-breaker policies I’m talking about. Nearly every minor party has some bullshit like that.

No one party is going to be 100% right for you, but the stranglehold of the ALP/LNP has to be broken. They are just making things worse and worse as time goes by. We are losing our freedoms (the TPP has been signed, VLAD, etc) and they just get more and more money for doing things that make like worse for us.
A vote for anyone else first and putting the ALP/LNP last on the ballot paper sends them the clear message they they aren’t doing a good enough job.

first you have to convince all those who worry about civilization crumbling that life goes on even if you make a stand.

It’s gradually happening. More and more people are getting sick of being lied to by the major parties. It’s taking a long time though, the process is painful.

It doesn’t worry me that the ALP and the Coalition are similar in many respects because they are both supposed to be centrist parties. We will never get perfect politicians but as I see it that is a problem of human nature that is very slow to change over time.

I see O’Farrels resignation as evidence that the system does work and that integrity in politics does still exist.

Witty Rejoinder said:

I see O’Farrels resignation as evidence that the system does work and that integrity in politics does still exist.

That’s bordering on unique though.
Have you forgotten all the other times where they rort the system, outright lie to us, etc? Those are by far the most common acts.

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The LDP advocates an immediate end to government ownership of business enterprises including the ABC, SBS, Australia Post, Medibank Private, electricity generation and public transport services.

that’ll end well.

That’s the sort of deal-breaker policies I’m talking about. Nearly every minor party has some bullshit like that.

No one party is going to be 100% right for you, but the stranglehold of the ALP/LNP has to be broken. They are just making things worse and worse as time goes by. We are losing our freedoms (the TPP has been signed, VLAD, etc) and they just get more and more money for doing things that make like worse for us.
A vote for anyone else first and putting the ALP/LNP last on the ballot paper sends them the clear message they they aren’t doing a good enough job.

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well, I think we are privileged, but we have on occasions had to take up arms to defend our way of life from those who think they have a better system, a totalitarian one.

finally a war Australia can win!!!!

Peak Warming Man said:

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well,

But they aren’t now, especially in Queensland. You can be locked up for almost no real reason at all, just a mere suspicion.
(This has already been done a few times so far)
The laws are rapidly becoming more and more draconian and insane.

Spiny Norman said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well,

But they aren’t now, especially in Queensland. You can be locked up for almost no real reason at all, just a mere suspicion.
(This has already been done a few times so far)
The laws are rapidly becoming more and more draconian and insane.

people get used to it

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well,

But they aren’t now, especially in Queensland. You can be locked up for almost no real reason at all, just a mere suspicion.
(This has already been done a few times so far)
The laws are rapidly becoming more and more draconian and insane.

people get used to it

Until it starts to affect them.
Then they wonder how all this was allowed to happen.

Spiny Norman said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well,

But they aren’t now, especially in Queensland. You can be locked up for almost no real reason at all, just a mere suspicion.
(This has already been done a few times so far)
The laws are rapidly becoming more and more draconian and insane.

The Government in Queensland could be called totalitarian with their huge majority and no upper house to check them.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Until it starts to affect them.
Then they wonder how all this was allowed to happen.

A good example of this are the speed limits. The tolerance set for getting pinged is simply illegal in most cars, yet people accept it.
Why?

jjjust moi said:

Spiny Norman said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well,

But they aren’t now, especially in Queensland. You can be locked up for almost no real reason at all, just a mere suspicion.
(This has already been done a few times so far)
The laws are rapidly becoming more and more draconian and insane.

The Government in Queensland could be called totalitarian with their huge majority and no upper house to check them.

They could be, but not by sane people.

Spiny Norman said:

That’s bordering on unique though.
Have you forgotten all the other times where they rort the system, outright lie to us, etc? Those are by far the most common acts.

I don’t think pollies are any less ethical than other professions. I just see it as human nature. And half the time when pollies ‘lie’ there is usually a good reason for them to change their mind.

Abbott has changed his mind about the ABC, Gonski, DisabilityCare, and about government expenditure in general because the budget needs to be brought back into a sustainable surplus.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

But they aren’t now, especially in Queensland. You can be locked up for almost no real reason at all, just a mere suspicion.
(This has already been done a few times so far)
The laws are rapidly becoming more and more draconian and insane.

people get used to it

Until it starts to affect them.
Then they wonder how all this was allowed to happen.

I’m not so sure

in the last few years I have discovered that people are generally fairly stupid when it comes to many basic issues that affect them directly.

the main thing for anyone that might be thinking at any level is that government only fulfils 4 basic functions, regardless what you might have been told at school or later by the television or newspapers

1 always make sure there is unemployment

2 always take money away from them

3 always make sure 1 and 2 are in force

4 a government must always be in serious debt

anything else is a sideshow because a government is only concerned with the value of the currency and its fellow travellers

Witty Rejoinder said:

Spiny Norman said:

That’s bordering on unique though.
Have you forgotten all the other times where they rort the system, outright lie to us, etc? Those are by far the most common acts.

I don’t think pollies are any less ethical than other professions. I just see it as human nature. And half the time when pollies ‘lie’ there is usually a good reason for them to change their mind.

Abbott has changed his mind about the ABC, Gonski, DisabilityCare, and about government expenditure in general because the budget needs to be brought back into a sustainable surplus.

But not about maternity leave.

Peak Warming Man said:

Western world countries have been run by their equivalent of the LNP or the ALP for a long long time.
Our civic institutions and judicial systems work extremely well, I think we are privileged, but we have on occasions had to take up arms to defend our way of life from those who think they have a better system, a totalitarian one.

I agree. I think the UK, Australia and Canada could claim to be the best governed countries for the past 200 years. The USA is straying a little bit but I think they’ll lift their game when they see that they might be falling behind.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Abbott has changed his mind about the ABC, Gonski, DisabilityCare, and about government expenditure in general because the budget needs to be brought back into a sustainable surplus.

So all that was a complete mystery before the election? They just made up a plan and policies based on guesswork?
Or did they actually know the figures and just lie to us before the election?

Which is more likely?

Spiny Norman said:

A good example of this are the speed limits. The tolerance set for getting pinged is simply illegal in most cars, yet people accept it.
Why?

Because people can simply slow down.

A good example of police attempting to intimidate a member of the public into giving a DNA sample.
Fortunately he knows the law and tells them to bugger off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfdkws_wMtw

Witty Rejoinder said:

Spiny Norman said:

A good example of this are the speed limits. The tolerance set for getting pinged is simply illegal in most cars, yet people accept it.
Why?

Because people can simply slow down.

That’s answering a question I didn’t ask.

jjjust moi said:

But not about maternity leave.

Indeed. Strangely enough.

people’s generally lax attitude to whats happening in their own backyard is unwavering as the north start

my conclusion was that the only real forward was to start a kibbutz. a kibbutz means that as a group you aren’t left to the mercy of the law, stockbrokers, snake oil salesmen, developers and the whole host of parasites that are devouring society

no one is interested in a kibbutz so I make my own way, make a few points to show that everything as you are told is a lie and continue.

as a group its harder to attack you, if you want protection you have to swear allegiance to a political party or god.

Spiny Norman said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Abbott has changed his mind about the ABC, Gonski, DisabilityCare, and about government expenditure in general because the budget needs to be brought back into a sustainable surplus.

So all that was a complete mystery before the election? They just made up a plan and policies based on guesswork?
Or did they actually know the figures and just lie to us before the election?

Which is more likely?

It could be the case that they knew in advance that their policies weren’t sustainable but I don’t think that is the case.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Spiny Norman said:

A good example of this are the speed limits. The tolerance set for getting pinged is simply illegal in most cars, yet people accept it.
Why?

Because people can simply slow down.

and keep slowing down

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2606558/Duke-Duchess-Cambridge-visit-fire-ravaged-Blue-Mountains.html

I laughed when I saw those two characters that were stopped for acting susiciously

Police have stopped and searched two suspects who were ‘acting suspiciously’ and ‘causing a disturbance’ just metres from where the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were travelling during their visit to Australia’s Blue Mountains.

Two men were detained after the incident, one of whom was wearing what a witness earlier described as a bullet-proof vest. However pictures show that the vest is in fact made of mesh, with pro-Israel stickers attached.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2606558/Duke-Duchess-Cambridge-visit-fire-ravaged-Blue-Mountains.html#ixzz2z80DrtBz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I hope they weren’t going to do a yitzak rabin on their arses

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

PermeateFree said:

Can’t beat that one.

Unfortunately they all keep voting for the same two parties.
Thus demonstrating how daft they really are.

We deserve FAR better than the ALP & LNP.

Outside of the PUP or The Greens there’s not much choice that is better than the major parties. I don’t think the arse-bouncing natural law party, or the shitters and flushers or any other of the multitude of minor and one-issue parties are any better equipped to lead the nation.

http://www.nationals.org.au/Default.aspx

Reminds me of the question…

What is the collective noun for politicians?

A. An equivocation of politicians

B. An odium of politicians

C. A restriction of politicians.

D . An ablution of politicians.

.. given the old phrase of “giving birth to a politician” when going for an ablution.

D . An ablution of politicians.
———————————————————

Well we have already tried and hung religious leaders of many different institutions.

Be happy with the separation of state and ‘church’.

Mr Ironic said:

Reminds me of the question…

What is the collective noun for politicians?

A. An equivocation of politicians

B. An odium of politicians

C. A restriction of politicians.

Shouldn’t C be a constriction of politicians?

Nothing like religion for bringing people to their knees.

PermeateFree said:

Nothing like religion for bringing people to their knees.

Ah…

I’ve always avoided dating religious chicks.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Nothing like religion for bringing people to their knees.

Ah…

I’ve always avoided dating religious chicks.

You never heard them cry OMG?

I’m still up, thoroughly enjoying a fine British horror outing simply called Witchcraft, from 1964. Excellent photography and decent acting enlivened by the occasional presence of Lon Chaney. Just opened a 3000-year-old bottle of Grange to accompany the proceedings.

Bubblecar said:

I’m still up, thoroughly enjoying a fine British horror outing simply called Witchcraft, from 1964. Excellent photography and decent acting enlivened by the occasional presence of Lon Chaney. Just opened a 3000-year-old bottle of Grange to accompany the proceedings.

That was for chit-chat, my humble apologies.

“Abbott has changed his mind about the ABC, Gonski, DisabilityCare, and about government expenditure in general because the budget needs to be brought back into a sustainable surplus.”
=================================

Something he knew BEFORE the election. And don’t give uis the “it’s worse than we thought” argument, Costello’s Charter of Budget honesty made sure they got the facts before the election.

rumpole said:

“Abbott has changed his mind about the ABC, Gonski, DisabilityCare, and about government expenditure in general because the budget needs to be brought back into a sustainable surplus.”
=================================

Something he knew BEFORE the election. And don’t give uis the “it’s worse than we thought” argument, Costello’s Charter of Budget honesty made sure they got the facts before the election.

Also the responsible thing to do in the current circumstances is to raise taxes, not reduce them as they are proposing.

If they are going to raise taxes then they should get rid of ALL tax deductions

Lets see how long this raise lasts then

You really need a flat tax payable by EVERYONE not just those who can afford to evade tax through “deductions”

It would make the tax system simpler because without the deductions factor tax time would become much simpler . You made 100 million profit – we take 20 million in tax

wookiemeister said:

If they are going to raise taxes then they should get rid of ALL tax deductions

Lets see how long this raise lasts then

You really need a flat tax payable by EVERYONE not just those who can afford to evade tax through “deductions”

It would make the tax system simpler because without the deductions factor tax time would become much simpler . You made 100 million profit – we take 20 million in tax

Do you mean a flat tax % rate? i.e. x% of your income.

“Flat” tax is just stupid.

The only reason it gets any support is because lots of greedy rich people have too much influence.

And if you had no deductions, you’d have to tax total income, not profits.

See how that goes down with business and the libnats.

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Flat” tax is just stupid.

The only reason it gets any support is because lots of greedy rich people have too much influence.

And if you had no deductions, you’d have to tax total income, not profits.

See how that goes down with business and the libnats.

If you gradully reduced deduction claimable and compensated by reducing the tax rate, you would make company tax more efficient to collect (less tax staff to vet the deductions), and cheaper for business (less staff going through all the deductions and keeping records.

So if you end up with a 10% company tax rate and very few deductions, everyone is better off.

rumpole said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Flat” tax is just stupid.

The only reason it gets any support is because lots of greedy rich people have too much influence.

And if you had no deductions, you’d have to tax total income, not profits.

See how that goes down with business and the libnats.

If you gradully reduced deduction claimable and compensated by reducing the tax rate, you would make company tax more efficient to collect (less tax staff to vet the deductions), and cheaper for business (less staff going through all the deductions and keeping records.

So if you end up with a 10% company tax rate and very few deductions, everyone is better off.

You always get people exploiting loopholes like this. The moment you drop the company tax rate to 10%, or anything significantly below the personal tax rate you will get people re-structuring their affairs to take advantage of it. The end result will be a huge loss of tax revenue, with only the vague hope of some trickle down effect in the long term.

next…

party_pants said:

You always get people exploiting loopholes like this. The moment you drop the company tax rate to 10%, or anything significantly below the personal tax rate you will get people re-structuring their affairs to take advantage of it. The end result will be a huge loss of tax revenue, with only the vague hope of some trickle down effect in the long term.

next…

You also get companies paying vastly different amounts of tax, depending on how they are structured and where they buy their materials and services. Companies buying from overseas pay 10%
Companies buying from Australia with one previous transaction pay 21%
Companies buying from Australia with two previous transactions pay 33%

and so on.

Which is why GST is reclaimable for companies. If it wasn’t, it would be a huge incentive for all Australian businesses to buy everything from outside Australia.

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Flat” tax is just stupid.

The only reason it gets any support is because lots of greedy rich people have too much influence.

And if you had no deductions, you’d have to tax total income, not profits.

See how that goes down with business and the libnats.

If you gradully reduced deduction claimable and compensated by reducing the tax rate, you would make company tax more efficient to collect (less tax staff to vet the deductions), and cheaper for business (less staff going through all the deductions and keeping records.

So if you end up with a 10% company tax rate and very few deductions, everyone is better off.

You always get people exploiting loopholes like this. The moment you drop the company tax rate to 10%, or anything significantly below the personal tax rate you will get people re-structuring their affairs to take advantage of it. The end result will be a huge loss of tax revenue, with only the vague hope of some trickle down effect in the long term.

next…

So lower the personal rates at the same time, or better still, get rid of cash , income tax and personal tax and tax money going it to bank accounts and transferred offshore. You could probably get rid of most of the tax dept by doing that.

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

If you gradully reduced deduction claimable and compensated by reducing the tax rate, you would make company tax more efficient to collect (less tax staff to vet the deductions), and cheaper for business (less staff going through all the deductions and keeping records.

So if you end up with a 10% company tax rate and very few deductions, everyone is better off.

You always get people exploiting loopholes like this. The moment you drop the company tax rate to 10%, or anything significantly below the personal tax rate you will get people re-structuring their affairs to take advantage of it. The end result will be a huge loss of tax revenue, with only the vague hope of some trickle down effect in the long term.

next…

So lower the personal rates at the same time, or better still, get rid of cash , income tax and personal tax and tax money going it to bank accounts and transferred offshore. You could probably get rid of most of the tax dept by doing that.

How do you run the country without tax revenue?

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

You always get people exploiting loopholes like this. The moment you drop the company tax rate to 10%, or anything significantly below the personal tax rate you will get people re-structuring their affairs to take advantage of it. The end result will be a huge loss of tax revenue, with only the vague hope of some trickle down effect in the long term.

next…

So lower the personal rates at the same time, or better still, get rid of cash , income tax and personal tax and tax money going it to bank accounts and transferred offshore. You could probably get rid of most of the tax dept by doing that.

How do you run the country without tax revenue?

Are you kidding ?

How much money would go in and out of bank accounts if you got rid of cash ? A tax on each of those transactions would give a government all the revenue they need.

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

So lower the personal rates at the same time, or better still, get rid of cash , income tax and personal tax and tax money going it to bank accounts and transferred offshore. You could probably get rid of most of the tax dept by doing that.

How do you run the country without tax revenue?

Are you kidding ?

How much money would go in and out of bank accounts if you got rid of cash ? A tax on each of those transactions would give a government all the revenue they need.

And you would still have gst of course

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

So lower the personal rates at the same time, or better still, get rid of cash , income tax and personal tax and tax money going it to bank accounts and transferred offshore. You could probably get rid of most of the tax dept by doing that.

How do you run the country without tax revenue?

Are you kidding ?

How much money would go in and out of bank accounts if you got rid of cash ? A tax on each of those transactions would give a government all the revenue they need.

Once again, people would restructure their affairs to avoid bank account transactions. A loophole will be found somewhere to set up accounts and money transfers that were not technically a bank and did not require a banking licence to operate. Or they’d go back to plain old-fashioned cash in envelopes. If a tax on bank transactions was implemented I’d insist on being paid wages in cash, only the amount of money I choose would enter the banking system.

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

How do you run the country without tax revenue?

Are you kidding ?

How much money would go in and out of bank accounts if you got rid of cash ? A tax on each of those transactions would give a government all the revenue they need.

Once again, people would restructure their affairs to avoid bank account transactions. A loophole will be found somewhere to set up accounts and money transfers that were not technically a bank and did not require a banking licence to operate. Or they’d go back to plain old-fashioned cash in envelopes. If a tax on bank transactions was implemented I’d insist on being paid wages in cash, only the amount of money I choose would enter the banking system.

You didn’t read my post properly. Part of this plan is DO AWAY WITH CASH, vitually forcing all transactions to be via eftpos. You might get a few people entering into a bartering arrangement, but that’s too difficult for most people. It’s hard to see people setting up ‘non banks’ that escape a regulatory net, but impose sufficient penalties for doing that and people won’t.

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

If you gradully reduced deduction claimable and compensated by reducing the tax rate, you would make company tax more efficient to collect (less tax staff to vet the deductions), and cheaper for business (less staff going through all the deductions and keeping records.

So if you end up with a 10% company tax rate and very few deductions, everyone is better off.

You always get people exploiting loopholes like this. The moment you drop the company tax rate to 10%, or anything significantly below the personal tax rate you will get people re-structuring their affairs to take advantage of it. The end result will be a huge loss of tax revenue, with only the vague hope of some trickle down effect in the long term.

next…

So lower the personal rates at the same time, or better still, get rid of cash , income tax and personal tax and tax money going it to bank accounts and transferred offshore. You could probably get rid of most of the tax dept by doing that.

The GST was supposed to get rid of the “black economy”. It made it worse.

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

rumpole said:

You didn’t read my post properly. Part of this plan is DO AWAY WITH CASH, vitually forcing all transactions to be via eftpos. You might get a few people entering into a bartering arrangement, but that’s too difficult for most people. It’s hard to see people setting up ‘non banks’ that escape a regulatory net, but impose sufficient penalties for doing that and people won’t.

The banks would just love that. They’d put a charge on all transactions so buying a $4 item would cost $4 + bank charge + govt tax = $6.

Tamb said:

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

You didn’t read my post properly. Part of this plan is DO AWAY WITH CASH, vitually forcing all transactions to be via eftpos. You might get a few people entering into a bartering arrangement, but that’s too difficult for most people. It’s hard to see people setting up ‘non banks’ that escape a regulatory net, but impose sufficient penalties for doing that and people won’t.

The banks would just love that. They’d put a charge on all transactions so buying a $4 item would cost $4 + bank charge + govt tax = $6.

It’s up to the government to not let them do that.

Tamb said:

rumpole said:

party_pants said:

You didn’t read my post properly. Part of this plan is DO AWAY WITH CASH, vitually forcing all transactions to be via eftpos. You might get a few people entering into a bartering arrangement, but that’s too difficult for most people. It’s hard to see people setting up ‘non banks’ that escape a regulatory net, but impose sufficient penalties for doing that and people won’t.

The banks would just love that. They’d put a charge on all transactions so buying a $4 item would cost $4 + bank charge + govt tax = $6.

Obviously rumpole is trying to give his bitcoins some value. :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

rumpole said:

You didn’t read my post properly. Part of this plan is DO AWAY WITH CASH, vitually forcing all transactions to be via eftpos. You might get a few people entering into a bartering arrangement, but that’s too difficult for most people. It’s hard to see people setting up ‘non banks’ that escape a regulatory net, but impose sufficient penalties for doing that and people won’t.

The banks would just love that. They’d put a charge on all transactions so buying a $4 item would cost $4 + bank charge + govt tax = $6.

Obviously rumpole is trying to give his bitcoins some value. :)

How dare you impinge my integrity sir !

I have only two bitcoins

:)

Obviously rumpole is trying to give his bitcoins some value. :)

How dare you impinge my integrity sir !

I have only two bitcoins

:)

I have one billion Zimbabwean dollars. Wanna swap? :)

Tamb said:

Obviously rumpole is trying to give his bitcoins some value. :)

How dare you impinge my integrity sir !

I have only two bitcoins

:)

I have one billion Zimbabwean dollars. Wanna swap? :)

No thanks. I’m saving my bitcoins as a hedge against inflation.

rumpole said:

Tamb said:

Obviously rumpole is trying to give his bitcoins some value. :)

How dare you impinge my integrity sir !

I have only two bitcoins

:)

Yeah, don’t fall for it.

You can pick up 50 trillion Zimbabwean $ on e-bay for $13.82*

• I didn’t make that up!

I have one billion Zimbabwean dollars. Wanna swap? :)

No thanks. I’m saving my bitcoins as a hedge against inflation.

According to this site:
http://www.xe.com/currency/zwd-zimbabwean-dollar

50 trillion Z$ is worth about 130 billion Aus$, so picking them up for $13.82 looks like a pretty good buy!

The Rev Dodgson said:

According to this site:
http://www.xe.com/currency/zwd-zimbabwean-dollar

50 trillion Z$ is worth about 130 billion Aus$, so picking them up for $13.82 looks like a pretty good buy!

Maybe Joe Hockey would be interested ? Would do wonders for the deficit.

rumpole said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

According to this site:
http://www.xe.com/currency/zwd-zimbabwean-dollar

50 trillion Z$ is worth about 130 billion Aus$, so picking them up for $13.82 looks like a pretty good buy!

Maybe Joe Hockey would be interested ? Would do wonders for the deficit.

Not to mention what an injection of $13.82 of real money into the Zimbabwe economy would do!

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Flat” tax is just stupid.

The only reason it gets any support is because lots of greedy rich people have too much influence.

And if you had no deductions, you’d have to tax total income, not profits.

See how that goes down with business and the libnats.

a flat tax on all transactions with NO tax deductions would make sure everyone pays their way

no subsidies for private health etc

no fuel receipts for business – sure the business community could do heaps of cash jobs but would be chased through the courts, the prosecution and conviction for tax evasion helping to pay for the next prosecution.

stop tax evasion and all of the deductions and you’d pay the national debt in no time. no more deductions for anything. no more subsidies.

I’d do away with salary sacrificing as well – sure there would be a few people that screamed as they had to pay more tax than they used to but it would mean that more people would pay less tax

I would do away with the tax scales as well

everyone pays the same amount of tax regardless of what they earn, this simplifies the entire system and even joe average could understand the tax system in its entirety.

shifting money around would incur a tax too. sending money out the country would incur an extra tax – this would help raise tax on internet sales

one of my radical ideas is to also make superannuation available to buy a house that you live in

wookie’s republic would promote private households and discourage the parasitic policy of negative gearing/ investing in property that drives property up

wookie – you really need to stop listening to right wing media identities spouting crap on behalf of their wealthy mates, and start thinking for yourself!

when you pay for a product using the credit card the tax on the item is simply collected by the bank

this applies for online or high street transactions

the highstreet and online seller doesn’t need to worry about collecting tax and stops people up to no good with no intention of ever paying the tax man from being able to defraud the system – as they sell – they pay tax – simple

the tax is paid in real time via credit card sales/ eftpos (which covers most sales)

theres the possibility of fraud but it will be quickly spotted – you’d just throw them in gaol for a few years until they agreed to pay the tax they owe (or just deport them back to the mother lode with a one way ticket)

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookie – you really need to stop listening to right wing media identities spouting crap on behalf of their wealthy mates, and start thinking for yourself!

it might surprise you but I don’t read any of this anywhere!!!

its my own take on how to tax fairly

stopping the deduictions will mean that business will have to pay tax!!

I wouldn’t give the mining industry a cent in subsidies either

tax needs to be paid in real time – this will cut down on most fraud

if you enter a convenience store and pay for an item the tax is collected immediately

if you pay on line the tax is collected immediately

banks will have an understanding of where their customers live

with all this money sloshing around you pay down the debt owed and make it illegal for any government to take any further debt without a plebiscite

if a government has to keep taking debt it means they can’t run the business of government.

>>stopping the deduictions will mean that business will have to pay tax!!<<

what have I been doing wrong?! My business has been paying tax for 20 years now. Do you mean I didn’t have to?

wookiemeister said:

with all this money sloshing around you pay down the debt owed and make it illegal for any government to take any further debt without a plebiscite

if a government has to keep taking debt it means they can’t run the business of government.

No. Because of Australia’s perfect triple-triple-A credit rating (thanks, ALP), they can obtain credit so cheaply that it would be wasteful for them to pay down the debt at this time, rather than do something productive with the money.

This appears to be the view of every economist at this time.

buffy said:

>>stopping the deduictions will mean that business will have to pay tax!!<<

what have I been doing wrong?! My business has been paying tax for 20 years now. Do you mean I didn’t have to?

You just need to find the ‘right’ accountant.

buffy said:

>>stopping the deduictions will mean that business will have to pay tax!!<<

what have I been doing wrong?! My business has been paying tax for 20 years now. Do you mean I didn’t have to?

I’d do away with the BAS, it’s too onerous , there would have to be a better way to do this

I don’t like the current rate if GST, I don’t like GST, it’s illegal by the constitution as far as I’m aware.

If everyone was paying tax with no deductions, subsidies or any other handouts I bet things would sort themselves out.

With everyone paying tax ( Kerry packet wouldn’t be able to pay one dollar tax for example.

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

with all this money sloshing around you pay down the debt owed and make it illegal for any government to take any further debt without a plebiscite

if a government has to keep taking debt it means they can’t run the business of government.

No. Because of Australia’s perfect triple-triple-A credit rating (thanks, ALP), they can obtain credit so cheaply that it would be wasteful for them to pay down the debt at this time, rather than do something productive with the money.

This appears to be the view of every economist at this time.

Do those economists work for the bank, are they the same economists that predicted the GST.

The advice of those characters serves only themselves,

Didn’t finish the last post properly phone froze

I don’t find economics as a subject credible

The same gentlemen that have brought about numerous crashes are the same ones that tell us we don’t know what we are talking about when it comes to money.

Reducing debt is the fool proof way of saving money – guaranteed, you could actually not sack anyone. Just stop spending money on pot plants and save billions of dollars

Anyone with a mortgage understands that debt is the devil , the longer you have it the longer you have to dance to the tune of the devil.

wookiemeister said:

I don’t find economics as a subject credible

The same gentlemen that have brought about numerous crashes are the same ones that tell us we don’t know what we are talking about when it comes to money.

Reducing debt is the fool proof way of saving money – guaranteed, you could actually not sack anyone. Just stop spending money on pot plants and save billions of dollars

Anyone with a mortgage understands that debt is the devil , the longer you have it the longer you have to dance to the tune of the devil.

I agree that economics seems anything but scientific, and when economists can’t predict the biggest financial event of the past hundred years, they can’t really have much of a grasp on how it all works. But as for debt, without the mortgage you wouldn’t be able to buy your house in the first place.

pommiejohn said:

wookiemeister said:

I don’t find economics as a subject credible

The same gentlemen that have brought about numerous crashes are the same ones that tell us we don’t know what we are talking about when it comes to money.

Reducing debt is the fool proof way of saving money – guaranteed, you could actually not sack anyone. Just stop spending money on pot plants and save billions of dollars

Anyone with a mortgage understands that debt is the devil , the longer you have it the longer you have to dance to the tune of the devil.

I agree that economics seems anything but scientific, and when economists can’t predict the biggest financial event of the past hundred years, they can’t really have much of a grasp on how it all works. But as for debt, without the mortgage you wouldn’t be able to buy your house in the first place.

Mortgages for joe average buying a house to live in, is a necessary debt. If want to add another decade to that debt put in a pool , that’s not a necessary debt.

I don’t see how the same people asleep at the wheel can be the answer. It requires new thinking , obvious thinking to manage an economy

Brandis really is a tiresome fuckknuckle. It’s hard to imagine him surviving outside of the senate.

pommiejohn said:

I agree that economics seems anything but scientific, and when economists can’t predict the biggest financial event of the past hundred years, they can’t really have much of a grasp on how it all works.

The GFC was predicted by some economists like Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz. Unfortunately they were in the minority. His book on the GFC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freefall:_America,_Free_Markets,_and_the_Sinking_of_the_World_Economy

In the runup to the 2007election, Costello predicted a “global financial tsunami” the following year. It may have just been scaremongering.

It’s funny that he wrote to no publication then well before time not knocked on no doors

The people that did see it coming made money

Typing in tricky position

wookiemeister said:

It’s funny that he wrote to no publication then well before time not knocked on no doors

It was common knowledge that the US economy was vulnerable in the case of a dramatic fall in housing prices. There was simply disagreement over how likely a housing collapse would be.

The fundamentals of economics are fine.

Dealing with the extremes of greed and fear are somewhat problematic…

Interestign times economically. America with debts payable only in US dollars is broke and China looks to be losing the demographic long game, the skewed population pyramid from the one child policy filters up to a society where the elderly live a long time and there will not be enough people to work to support them as responsibility transfers from a traditional family one to a govt one.

It was common knowledge that the US economy was vulnerable in the case of a dramatic fall in housing prices.
————————————————————————-

Maybe because the owners of the validity of the value of the loan lies within the banks, unlike the Aussie model where it lies with the owner/debt recipient.

Problem is banks can’t be allowed to fail when they do…

http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/look-out-for-the-tsunami-says-costello/2007/10/25/1192941243214.html

Look out for the tsunami, says Costello

Jessica Irvine and Peter Hartcher
October 26, 2007

THE Treasurer, Peter Costello, has warned of a “huge tsunami” set to engulf global financial markets, with China as its epicentre, in his strongest bid yet for the Reserve Bank not to raise interest rates next month.

In his first newspaper interview of the campaign, Mr Costello predicted the US economy would weaken in the wake of its subprime mortgage meltdown, and said the breakneck pace of Chinese growth could not continue.

At some stage, likely to coincide with a move to a floating exchange rate, the Chinese economy would unleash even greater instability on global markets than the US had.

“That will be a wild ride when that happens,” he said. “That will set off a huge tsunami that will go through world financial markets.”

Instability on global financial markets between now and the next Reserve Bank board meeting on Melbourne Cup day is seen by economists as the only force that could stay the bank’s hand from raising rates to the highest level in a decade.

dv said:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/look-out-for-the-tsunami-says-costello/2007/10/25/1192941243214.html

Look out for the tsunami, says Costello

are there models other than ‘high growth’ economics at all?

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/look-out-for-the-tsunami-says-costello/2007/10/25/1192941243214.html

Look out for the tsunami, says Costello

are there models other than ‘high growth’ economics at all?

Um, yes, and most of the western world has been enjoying those for the last six years.

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/look-out-for-the-tsunami-says-costello/2007/10/25/1192941243214.html

Look out for the tsunami, says Costello

are there models other than ‘high growth’ economics at all?

Um, yes, and most of the western world has been enjoying those for the last six years.

I had the impression that the western bubbles had burst and most western systems are still riding out the market that was developed. From my angle it still seemsthat big business/industry is considered pivotal. Are we going from the frying pan to the fire in going from national loyalty to product loyalty???

are there models other than ‘high growth’ economics at all?
———————————————————————————-

There used to be.

You could travel the world with three kids on one job.

Now two professionals have to remortgage the house for a quick trip to a close continent…

Thats progress for you, next they will be saying you have to work ten years longer than yore parents and leave nothing to the kids.

dv said:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/look-out-for-the-tsunami-says-costello/2007/10/25/1192941243214.html

Look out for the tsunami, says Costello

Jessica Irvine and Peter Hartcher
October 26, 2007

THE Treasurer, Peter Costello, has warned of a “huge tsunami” set to engulf global financial markets, with China as its epicentre, in his strongest bid yet for the Reserve Bank not to raise interest rates next month.

In his first newspaper interview of the campaign, Mr Costello predicted the US economy would weaken in the wake of its subprime mortgage meltdown, and said the breakneck pace of Chinese growth could not continue.

At some stage, likely to coincide with a move to a floating exchange rate, the Chinese economy would unleash even greater instability on global markets than the US had.

“That will be a wild ride when that happens,” he said. “That will set off a huge tsunami that will go through world financial markets.”

Instability on global financial markets between now and the next Reserve Bank board meeting on Melbourne Cup day is seen by economists as the only force that could stay the bank’s hand from raising rates to the highest level in a decade.

yet things continued and he didn’t knock on enough doors

i suspected something was amiss early in 2008

i had been pressurised to look into buying a house, after looking around, looking at the easy money and the phenomenal price on essentially heaps of junk on the real estate market i stood back and decided the time wasn’t right – something seemed wrong when wrecks were fetching crazy prices – let some other fool take the fall, you’d not catch me paying silly money for a house.

We are through the looking glass now and into uncharted waters. The world has never before experienced globalisation and the problems and advantages it allows.

Everything is changing, including the nature of work in the advanced west. If you work on a computer screen, previously the safest and whitest of jobs look out.

You could travel the world with three kids on one job.

ROFL, when was that? It’s only been in the last generation that travelling the world was even a faint possibility for ordinary people even in the wealthiest of nations.

and the other thing is this

given the control the liberals have on the media, you’d think that such a potential crisis would have made front page headlines

you think more preparation would have been made – if they knew then they should have started rolling up the draw bridge and shit down the conveyor money of the Australian dollar into the abyss of American banks

of course this would have been immediately apparently obvious to anyone who worked the screens looking at this stuff day in day out

dv said:

You could travel the world with three kids on one job.

ROFL, when was that? It’s only been in the last generation that travelling the world was even a faint possibility for ordinary people even in the wealthiest of nations.

My father traveled the world with no job. Not that he earned friends that way….

dv said:

You could travel the world with three kids on one job.

ROFL, when was that? It’s only been in the last generation that travelling the world was even a faint possibility for ordinary people even in the wealthiest of nations.

Those oldish Imperial flights via seaplane were three years average wages. Hell I remember when flying was rare and expensive. Now it is a bus.

Mr Ironic said:

are there models other than ‘high growth’ economics at all?
———————————————————————————-

There used to be.

You could travel the world with three kids on one job.

Now two professionals have to remortgage the house for a quick trip to a close continent…

Thats progress for you, next they will be saying you have to work ten years longer than yore parents and leave nothing to the kids.

The cost of travel relative to average income has reduced greatly over the last 50 years.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/taxpayers-fund-110m-loan-to-venture-run-by-bhp-rio-tinto-20140317-34y5u.html#ixzz2z9JQkXgT

you could save money by not subsidising mining companies

its no wonder the country is going to the dogs

the only reason that howard’s court jester ever got into power was because Gillard was a huge failure – it didn’t take much to look better

where’s Gillard now – jetting across the world courtesy of the tax payer no doubt

the age of entitlement should be OVER

ROFL, when was that? It’s only been in the last generation that travelling the world was even a faint possibility for ordinary people even in the wealthiest of nations.
———————————————-

Well pick your self up off the floor and stop giggling…

Thats what my folks did.

Crossed the globe east and west and north and south.

How the fuck do you think I got here?

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/former-prime-minister-julia-gillard-enjoying-life-in-adelaide-new-job-and-loyalty-to-western-bulldogs/story-fni6uo1m-1226824193266

The cost of travel relative to average income has reduced greatly over the last 50 years.
——————————————————————————————

And therefor…

The cost of living/spending in the first place must have gone up remarkably for both statements to be true.

ChrispenEvan said:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/former-prime-minister-julia-gillard-enjoying-life-in-adelaide-new-job-and-loyalty-to-western-bulldogs/story-fni6uo1m-1226824193266

aye

“She will “quietly” support Premier Jay Weatherill in the lead up to the March 15 election, and her passport will get “dog eared” from all the travel her education-related roles involve.”

Mr Ironic said:

ROFL, when was that? It’s only been in the last generation that travelling the world was even a faint possibility for ordinary people even in the wealthiest of nations.
———————————————-

Well pick your self up off the floor and stop giggling…

Thats what my folks did.

Crossed the globe east and west and north and south.

How the fuck do you think I got here?

Oddly enough, I am not familiar with your family history, just with history in general. This is the age of cheap international travel.

http://www.globalpartnership.org/

hopefully this lot will be paying her travel expenses rather than the taxpayer.

ChrispenEvan said:

http://www.globalpartnership.org/

hopefully this lot will be paying her travel expenses rather than the taxpayer.

she’s flying around the globe and they are sacking university staff left right and centre

seems the only solution we have for education is somewhere else and paying money good money to do it

This is the age of cheap international travel.
——————————————————————

According to whom?

The marketeers?

Remember, people traveled the globe before economics was invented…

probably actually read what they do otherwise clippy will come out again

Mr Ironic said:

This is the age of cheap international travel.
——————————————————————

According to whom?

The marketeers?

Remember, people traveled the globe before economics was invented…

According to whom? LOL. I don’t know a single person you could ask and check with. Me, I figured off my own bat from my own inputs that international travel is easier and cheaper than ever before.

I might be wrong but if you think so you better say according to whom.

ChrispenEvan said:

probably actually read what they do otherwise clippy will come out again

i happen to have a very good friend called “clippy”

Mr Ironic said:

This is the age of cheap international travel.
——————————————————————

According to whom?

The marketeers?

Remember, people traveled the globe before economics was invented…

Once it was only the rich. Then it was the middle class. Now the bogans can go to Bali a second time in a lifetime.

.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Mr Ironic said:

This is the age of cheap international travel.
——————————————————————

According to whom?

The marketeers?

Remember, people traveled the globe before economics was invented…

Once it was only the rich. Then it was the middle class. Now the bogans can go to Bali a second time in a lifetime.

.

good luck to them

someone i vaguely know was telling me about how he was stumbling around on a beach there, got past some barbed wire and fell into a pit that turned out to be an open grave with multiple bodies in there

Me, I figured off my own bat from my own inputs that international travel is easier and cheaper than ever before.
——————————————————————————

Excellent.

Ever before what?

How old are you, you do realise that people moved before, or were you the first to get there…

Once it was only the rich.
—————————————-

Well obviously that is a myth.

Convicts were sent here for naught.

Mr Ironic said:

Me, I figured off my own bat from my own inputs that international travel is easier and cheaper than ever before.
——————————————————————————

Excellent.

Ever before what?

How old are you, you do realise that people moved before, or were you the first to get there…

Ever before in any way you want to measure expenditure costs. I do realise people moved before, well aware of early history and how far goods got traded.

My point remains, international travel has never been cheaper.

international travel has never been cheaper.
—————————————————————————

Compared with what?

Krugman: Worried About Oligarchy? You Ain’t Seen Nothing Yet

A key component of this ongoing disaster of capitalism is what happens when great wealth—and Piketty puts focus on inherited wealth—grows at rates faster than the overall economy. The mathematical formulation of that idea—which looks like this: r > g—is now gaining popular currency.

read more

Look I understand the marketing on convincing people to travel instead of paying off debt.

But also am not guilty of falling for the lie.

Mr Ironic said:

international travel has never been cheaper.
—————————————————————————

Compared with what?

LOL, the cost of travel prior. Why do you think air travel took off? It was cheaper compared to its competitors.

LOL, the cost of travel prior. Why do you think air travel took off? It was cheaper compared to its competitors.
——————————————————-

None of this makes sense.

You don’t even know the cost of prior travel.

Air travel decreased the time between communications.

Importing stuff is still provided, almost exclusively, by ship.

Mr Ironic said:

international travel has never been cheaper.
—————————————————————————

Compared with what?

The price of international travel in the past

Importing stuff is still provided, almost exclusively, by ship.

yeah, people don’t being locked in a container for 6 weeks though. bloody fussy if you ask me.

Mr Ironic said:

Look I understand the marketing on convincing people to travel instead of paying off debt.

But also am not guilty of falling for the lie.

What marketing, in particular, are you referring to?

Mr Ironic said:

LOL, the cost of travel prior. Why do you think air travel took off? It was cheaper compared to its competitors.
——————————————————-

None of this makes sense.

You don’t even know the cost of prior travel.

Air travel decreased the time between communications.

Importing stuff is still provided, almost exclusively, by ship.

It makes perfect sense. What doesn’t make sense is me at half eleven at night providing you references to prove that in 2014 international travel is incredibly cheap and has been cheap for a long time.

Mr Ironic said:

LOL, the cost of travel prior. Why do you think air travel took off? It was cheaper compared to its competitors.
——————————————————-

None of this makes sense.

You don’t even know the cost of prior travel.

Air travel decreased the time between communications.

Importing stuff is still provided, almost exclusively, by ship.

Decreased time is the key improvement for the transport of humans. They need to be fed, slept and exercised on a daily basis, plus ablutions. They can do maybe 20-30 hours sitting in a chair, after that they need a cabin. That’s the key advantage for jet travel, they limit the time to being barely comfortable but manageable on long haul flights.

The price of international travel in the past
————————————————————-

I think you are confusing the best rooms that the Titanic could offer with those those on the lower decks…

Of less ship worthy design.

bloody fussy if you ask me.
————————————————

Well yes, we were allowed the freedom of all of the upper decks.

Fancy that.

Mr Ironic said:

The price of international travel in the past
————————————————————-

I think you are confusing the best rooms that the Titanic could offer with those those on the lower decks…

Of less ship worthy design.

Nope. Tis cheaper to travel now, though I suppose you could quibble about cheap and how you calculate it. Though to anyone not a dill, in the ordinary sense of the word, travel has never been cheaper.

What marketing, in particular, are you referring to?
——————————————————

That that you fall for…

I don’t know, haven’t read your mail…

Or talked to your friends who have had, the experience of a life time…somewhere” but they didn’t stay.

Because they had to rush back to tell everyone…

Envy, ain’t that a peach.

What doesn’t make sense is me at half eleven at night providing you references to prove that in 2014 international travel is incredibly cheap and has been cheap for a long time.
———————————————————————-

OK love you long time.

I’ll investigate, on your behalf, how people moved between con… conten… landmasses whilst being impoverished.

Probably stowaways…

though I suppose you could quibble about cheap and how you calculate it.
——————————————————————————————

Well therein lies the argument. It is not obtuse.

Though to anyone not a dill, in the ordinary sense of the word, travel has never been cheaper. ————————————————————

And the facts and figures say what?

And the marketeers say what?

Happy to be wrong.

I’m already here…

http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html

For some perspective, here is the price of tickets: First Class tickets ranged from 30 pounds for a berth to 870 pounds for a luxury suite with a private fifty-foot promenade and the only private lavatory and toilet facilities in all the ship. A Second Class ticket could be purchased for as little as 12 pounds. Steerage tickets ranged from 3 to 8 pounds. I have seen various estimates of how much that would be worth in current US dollars, but the cheapest ticket would have cost a clerk, typist, or shipyard worker a month’s salary. The most expensive First Class ticket was similar in price to that of the most expensive luxury automobile.

>>I have seen various estimates of how much that would be worth in current US dollars, but the cheapest ticket would have cost a clerk, typist, or shipyard worker a month’s salary. <<

I’m not entirely sure of my history, but I suspect people in these sorts of jobs actually couldn’t take holidays. When did annual leave actually become the norm? (Yes, I get that it’s useful for comparison, but we also need to remember that people now have annual leave. Not so long ago the labour laws weren’t so strong)

buffy said:

>> Not so long ago the labour laws weren’t so strong)

And, our government is working hard toward bringing back those halcyon days.

As an employer, I should be congratulating them. But I know that workers who hate you don’t work well…

buffy said:

As an employer, I should be congratulating them. But I know that workers who hate you don’t work well…

Yes, but, if you don’t treat them too badly, they might find a nice sunny bit of wall to stand you up against- come the revolution.

How was the bike ride, Buffy?

Actually, it’s even more recent than you might think:

1935: 1 week paid annual leave for printing industry workers
1944: 2 weeks paid annual leave for all workers
1963: 3 weeks paid annual leave for all workers

I can’t see where the 4 weeks came in, but it was certainly there in the late 1970s.

From here:

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/Browse_by_Topic/employmentlaw/Historyemploymentlaw

And some very interesting stuff there about hours of work too……we live in wonderful times.

Things have changed somewhat since the ‘Titanic’ fares, but not as much as all that.

Chrispen remarked that the cheapest ‘Titanic’ ticket would have cost a low-paid worker a month’ salary.

The cheapest QANTAS return flight to the UK will still cost them two weeks’ salary.

Does all this talk about ticket prices mean that it’s cheaper today for smart people like scientists to move overseas ?

buffy said:

As an employer, I should be congratulating them. But I know that workers who hate you don’t work well…

Use the lash on them

buffy said:

As an employer, I should be congratulating them. But I know that workers who hate you don’t work well…

Use the lash on them

you would have to compare the middle class fare as we don’t have steerage anymore. been replaced with cattle class i believe.

rumpole said:

Does all this talk about ticket prices mean that it’s cheaper today for smart people like scientists to move overseas ?

Perhaps this in the oil industry / mining or detergents yes. The trick is to get into management or be or become female I’d wager

If you did science you immediately move overseas where HECS can’t find you

You stay there for a few years and they’ll have forgotten about you

If you have a large student loan you don’t stay in the country

Mr Ironic said:

The cost of travel relative to average income has reduced greatly over the last 50 years.
——————————————————————————————

And therefor…

The cost of living/spending in the first place must have gone up remarkably for both statements to be true.

The cost of almost everything, other than housing, has reduced greatly over the last 50 years, relative to income.

The fundamental reason that housing has gone up is that people have more disposable income.

Mr Ironic said:

This is the age of cheap international travel.
——————————————————————

According to whom?

The marketeers?

Remember, people traveled the globe before economics was invented…

You said something sensible earlier.

Good to see that you have reverted to form. Can’t have Mr Ironic saying sensible stuff, can we?

captain_spalding said:

Things have changed somewhat since the ‘Titanic’ fares, but not as much as all that.

Chrispen remarked that the cheapest ‘Titanic’ ticket would have cost a low-paid worker a month’ salary.

The cheapest QANTAS return flight to the UK will still cost them two weeks’ salary.

The Titanic wasn’t going to Australia… and wasn’t return (obv).

Many things baffle me, but one thing that baffles me regularly is that some people make a very small range of topics the main focus of their existence, yet still refuse to become familiar with the basic facts around that topic. Wookie and economics, BC and space travel etc.

dv said:

Many things baffle me, but one thing that baffles me regularly is that some people make a very small range of topics the main focus of their existence, yet still refuse to become familiar with the basic facts around that topic. Wookie and economics, BC and space travel etc.

Tony Abbott and the Environment

Tony Abbott and Science

Tony Abbott and common sense

………..

You know for all is faults and foibles, and all his abrasiveness I kind of don’t miss BC at all, not one jot.

Peak Warming Man said:

You know for all is faults and foibles, and all his abrasiveness I kind of don’t miss BC at all, not one jot.

That’s amazing!

Peak Warming Man said:

You know for all is faults and foibles, and all his abrasiveness I kind of don’t miss BC at all, not one jot.

I miss his enthusiasm for space travel

I dont miss his faults and personal attacks

I have faults, I dont ignore my faults, I try to become a better person.

>>>I have faults, I dont ignore my faults, I try to become a better person.
.
.
keep trying

speaking of BC, he posts on sciforums, has been there about 8 months. been sin binned around 1/2 doz times.

ChrispenEvan said:

speaking of BC, he posts on sciforums, has been there about 8 months. been sin binned around 1/2 doz times.

ROFL.

dv said:

Many things baffle me, but one thing that baffles me regularly is that some people make a very small range of topics the main focus of their existence, yet still refuse to become familiar with the basic facts around that topic. Wookie and economics, BC and space travel etc.

That was one of the good things about Zarkov, he wasn’t a one trick pony.
He ranged over a broad spectrum of scientific topics, from Raleigh scattering to spin gravity to bird flu to oil on oceans and many many more.
He was the peoples nutter.

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Many things baffle me, but one thing that baffles me regularly is that some people make a very small range of topics the main focus of their existence, yet still refuse to become familiar with the basic facts around that topic. Wookie and economics, BC and space travel etc.

That was one of the good things about Zarkov, he wasn’t a one trick pony.
He ranged over a broad spectrum of scientific topics, from Raleigh scattering to spin gravity to bird flu to oil on oceans and many many more.
He was the peoples nutter.

ROFL

dv said:

Many things baffle me, but one thing that baffles me regularly is that some people make a very small range of topics the main focus of their existence, yet still refuse to become familiar with the basic facts around that topic. Wookie and economics, BC and space travel etc.

I think about many things

with economics its a triage things

reduce the debt, stop taking all government debt, once that’s happening many of the problems in society in general will go away

when you see unemployment fall to 5.5 and slightly below you’ll see the interest rates rise again for sure

you won’t read that in any university course on economics

wookiemeister said:

when you see unemployment fall to 5.5 and slightly below you’ll see the interest rates rise again for sure

you won’t read that in any university course on economics

and a hot north wind will blow for forty days and forty nights, and a fire breathing dragon will eat all of Tony Abbott’s socks.

the thing that got me onto NAIRU was something I read in the business pages years ago when greenspan was in control

he said the declining rate of unemployment was a threat to the American economy – I was perplexed – how the hell can more people being in employ be a threat – you’d think it a good thing. I knew someone who was studying economics at the time and presented him with the article. he then explained they had briefly covered this subject in the last week about inflation and unemployment – we then had a discussion about this and then I helped him write his essay about a similar subject – he dropped out in the end – too many drugs.

one thing I did do though is start deducing what this would actually mean if the world was structured in this way and that’s when wookiemeister was born, in the furnace of the foundry

my conclusions were that the government has no allegiance to the country, no allegiance to the citizens of the country and are concerned only with the currency and those with money. I wasn’t wrong.

enjoy the war on science

the tipping point for Australian interest rates is 5.5 % unemployment

for a laugh when I ever hear anyone ask what the meaning of life is I reply 5.5 (not 42 – douglas adams was wrong)

the unemployment rate here seems to be steady above 5.5, by wookie reckoning I’m going to be ok whislt more people are losing their jobs, the collapse of the car industry they say will add another X hundred thousand to the dole queue over time

.
.
………………………….The 21st Century……………………….

Former UN IPCC Scientist Dr. Lennart Bengtsson:-

“More CO2 in the atmosphere leads undoubtedly to a warming of the earth surface. However, the extent and speed of this
warming are still uncertain, because we cannot yet separate well enough the greenhouse effect from other climate influences.

Although the radiative forcing by greenhouse gases (including methane, nitrogen oxides and fluorocarbons) has increased
by 2.5 watts per square meter since the mid-19th century, observations show only a moderate warming of 0.8 degrees Celsius.
Thus, the warming is significantly smaller than predicted by most climate models. In addition, the warming in the last century
was not uniform. Phases of manifest warming were followed by periods with no warming at all or even cooling.

The IPCC assumes that the earth will warm up by 1.5 to 4.5 degrees Celcius in response to a doubling of CO2 concentration.
These high values of climate sensitivity, however, are not supported by observations. In other words: global warming has not
been a serious problem so far if we rely on observations. It is only a problem when we refer to climate simulations by
computer models.

There is no alternative to such computer simulations if one wants to predict future developments. However, since there is no
way to validate them, the forecasts are more a matter of faith than a fact. The IPCC has published its expert opinion a few
months ago and presented it in the form of probabilities. As long as the results cannot be supported by validated models they
produce a false impression of reliability.
.

.

.
.
Well then, if global warming is real, explain that

The_observer said:

.
.
………………………….The 21st Century……………………….

Former UN IPCC Scientist Dr. Lennart Bengtsson:-

“More CO2 in the atmosphere leads undoubtedly to a warming of the earth surface. However, the extent and speed of this
warming are still uncertain, because we cannot yet separate well enough the greenhouse effect from other climate influences.

Although the radiative forcing by greenhouse gases (including methane, nitrogen oxides and fluorocarbons) has increased
by 2.5 watts per square meter since the mid-19th century, observations show only a moderate warming of 0.8 degrees Celsius.
Thus, the warming is significantly smaller than predicted by most climate models. In addition, the warming in the last century
was not uniform. Phases of manifest warming were followed by periods with no warming at all or even cooling.

The IPCC assumes that the earth will warm up by 1.5 to 4.5 degrees Celcius in response to a doubling of CO2 concentration.
These high values of climate sensitivity, however, are not supported by observations. In other words: global warming has not
been a serious problem so far if we rely on observations. It is only a problem when we refer to climate simulations by
computer models.

There is no alternative to such computer simulations if one wants to predict future developments. However, since there is no
way to validate them, the forecasts are more a matter of faith than a fact. The IPCC has published its expert opinion a few
months ago and presented it in the form of probabilities. As long as the results cannot be supported by validated models they
produce a false impression of reliability.
.

.

.
.
Well then, if global warming is real, explain that

It is a lot quicker to explain your distorted view of the world. Try turning the binoculars around you might then see things more clearly.

had to post this cos al gets a run…

How many climate sceptics does it take to change a light bulb?
Seventeen to complain about how crummy and dangerous the swirly new lightbulbs are;
forty-three to explain that lightbulbs have natural cycles so if we do nothing the light bulb will eventually get back into its warm light cycle;
and three hundred and fourteen to blame Al Gore for inventing the science of lightbulbs to make money and to impose socialist government controls over life in general.

ChrispenEvan said:

had to post this cos al gets a run…

How many climate sceptics does it take to change a light bulb?
Seventeen to complain about how crummy and dangerous the swirly new lightbulbs are;
forty-three to explain that lightbulbs have natural cycles so if we do nothing the light bulb will eventually get back into its warm light cycle;
and three hundred and fourteen to blame Al Gore for inventing the science of lightbulbs to make money and to impose socialist government controls over life in general.

And several million on either side waving their arms about & wasting oxygen.

>>>It is a lot quicker to explain your distorted view of the world. Try turning the binoculars around you might then see things more clearly.

+1

CrazyNeutrino said:

>>>It is a lot quicker to explain your distorted view of the world. Try turning the binoculars around you might then see things more clearly.

+1

with a name like ‘the observer’ he probably uses binoculars for peering in high-rise windows at the Gold Coast Indy……

• It is a lot quicker to explain your distorted view of the world. Try turning the binoculars around you might then see things more clearly.

• How many climate sceptics does it take to change a light bulb?

• And several million on either side waving their arms about & wasting oxygen.

• It is a lot quicker to explain your distorted view of the world. Try turning the binoculars around you might then see things more clearly.

+1

• with a name like ‘the observer’ he probably uses binoculars for peering in high-rise windows at the Gold Coast Indy……

A lots of these Climate Deniers are Puppets for Big Business and Corporate Greed

>>A lots of these Climate Deniers are Puppets for Big Business and Corporate Greed

The cost of almost everything, other than housing, has reduced greatly over the last 50 years, relative to income.
————————————————————

Well cars are about the same, Average wage <60 tho cheap new cars <20

Nah scratch that…

“A person on the average wage today would need to work for 30 weeks to buy a new Holden Commodore or Ford Falcon.”

Probably had more to do with the cost of living and tax.

Back in the day on one wage they could buy a house, a car, have a family, go overseas and save money.

Probably shouldn’t have replaced the gold standard with the unpredictable inflation infatuation…

Big cuts to CSIRO, ANSTO and Australian Institute of Marine Science in last night’s budget.