What designing a grid that incorporated solar on every home be difficult?

If private consumers power bill payments were directed to a government solar fund, would that provide the capital for installation?

Would the capital that the current power companies enjoy be enough to cover a transition from being sole providers to being power providers only to industry and surplus public consumption?

Postpocelipse said:

Would designing a grid that incorporated solar on every home be difficult?

fixed

In my view, it would not be difficult, and it would not be cost-competitive with other means of switching to renewables.

dv said:

In my view, it would not be difficult, and it would not be cost-competitive with other means of switching to renewables.

Mind quantifying this dv?

dv said:

In my view, it would not be difficult, and it would not be cost-competitive with other means of switching to renewables.

And I doubt that OTT would look kindly on it.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

In my view, it would not be difficult, and it would not be cost-competitive with other means of switching to renewables.

Mind quantifying this dv?

You can probably expect to pay slightly less than $6.00 per mean watt for large windpower installations in Australia.

In terms of actual price, you will be expecting more like $11.00 per mean watt for Australia’s major cities in rooftop PV.

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

In my view, it would not be difficult, and it would not be cost-competitive with other means of switching to renewables.

Mind quantifying this dv?

You can probably expect to pay slightly less than $6.00 per mean watt for large windpower installations in Australia.

BUT!!! There’s no pie to jam fingers or other digit-like extremities into in that equation!!!! Isn’t that utterly offensive??

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Mind quantifying this dv?

You can probably expect to pay slightly less than $6.00 per mean watt for large windpower installations in Australia.

BUT!!! There’s no pie to jam fingers or other digit-like extremities into in that equation!!!! Isn’t that utterly offensive??

I have no idea what you mean.

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

You can probably expect to pay slightly less than $6.00 per mean watt for large windpower installations in Australia.

BUT!!! There’s no pie to jam fingers or other digit-like extremities into in that equation!!!! Isn’t that utterly offensive??

I have no idea what you mean.

Don’t blame me for Hockey’s inscrutable thinking and urges……..

Postpocelipse said:

Would designing a grid that incorporated solar on every home be difficult?

Yes. It would be an absolute pain in the arse and quite expensive to implement.

A lot of calculation goes into sizing the grid under fault conditions, and major components within the grid are specified to operate up to a certain fault level. So a fuse, for example, may be rated up to 100 kA and guarantted to operate correctly up to that current level. If the current level exceeds 100 kA then the fuse may operate incorrectly or in a dangerous manner.

The design of the grid is a balancing act between cost and reliability, with safety being an overriding concern. Once you begin to place grid connect solar systems onto the grid the expected fault currents rise. I know of one instance where the supply authority refused permission for a 15 kVA solar system to be connected as it would have pushed the fault current above the design for that line, albeit this was a bush line and wasn’t the most stable thing at the best of times.

A centrallised power generation and distribution system is always going to be far easier, and cheaper, to implement than a system that contains thousands of generating nodes.

sibeen said:

Postpocelipse said:

Would designing a grid that incorporated solar on every home be difficult?

Yes. It would be an absolute pain in the arse and quite expensive to implement.

A lot of calculation goes into sizing the grid under fault conditions, and major components within the grid are specified to operate up to a certain fault level. So a fuse, for example, may be rated up to 100 kA and guarantted to operate correctly up to that current level. If the current level exceeds 100 kA then the fuse may operate incorrectly or in a dangerous manner.

The design of the grid is a balancing act between cost and reliability, with safety being an overriding concern. Once you begin to place grid connect solar systems onto the grid the expected fault currents rise. I know of one instance where the supply authority refused permission for a 15 kVA solar system to be connected as it would have pushed the fault current above the design for that line, albeit this was a bush line and wasn’t the most stable thing at the best of times.

A centrallised power generation and distribution system is always going to be far easier, and cheaper, to implement than a system that contains thousands of generating nodes.

Didn’t they teach the slide rule at uni?

Ian said:

sibeen said:

Postpocelipse said:

Would designing a grid that incorporated solar on every home be difficult?

Yes. It would be an absolute pain in the arse and quite expensive to implement.

A lot of calculation goes into sizing the grid under fault conditions, and major components within the grid are specified to operate up to a certain fault level. So a fuse, for example, may be rated up to 100 kA and guarantted to operate correctly up to that current level. If the current level exceeds 100 kA then the fuse may operate incorrectly or in a dangerous manner.

The design of the grid is a balancing act between cost and reliability, with safety being an overriding concern. Once you begin to place grid connect solar systems onto the grid the expected fault currents rise. I know of one instance where the supply authority refused permission for a 15 kVA solar system to be connected as it would have pushed the fault current above the design for that line, albeit this was a bush line and wasn’t the most stable thing at the best of times.

A centrallised power generation and distribution system is always going to be far easier, and cheaper, to implement than a system that contains thousands of generating nodes.

Didn’t they teach the slide rule at uni?

Even fairly simple seeming systems can be tricky.
At a power station where I worked an electrician isolated a 240V light circuit to change a lightbulb. Somehow some protection operated & tripped the entire station.

“Once you begin to place grid connect solar systems onto the grid the expected fault currents rise.”

Surely that’s not insurmountable? What if there were energy storage devices around the grid (just assuming we can make them big/cheap/reliable enough?)

Tamb said:

Even fairly simple seeming systems can be tricky.
At a power station where I worked an electrician isolated a 240V light circuit to change a lightbulb. Somehow some protection operated & tripped the entire station.

Selection and setup of protection schemes is a dark art, especially at MV and HV. At EHV I suspect the blokes who do it have sold their soul to santa. When it goes wrong it can be rather spectacular, as witnessed down Morwell way a month or so ago.

MartinB said:

“Once you begin to place grid connect solar systems onto the grid the expected fault currents rise.”

Surely that’s not insurmountable? What if there were energy storage devices around the grid (just assuming we can make them big/cheap/reliable enough?)

Not insurmountable, no, but at what cost? Adding energy storage devices would exacerbate the problem, not mitigate it.

MartinB said:

“Once you begin to place grid connect solar systems onto the grid the expected fault currents rise.”

Surely that’s not insurmountable? What if there were energy storage devices around the grid (just assuming we can make them big/cheap/reliable enough?)

Like power ceramic caps?

Modi to Use Solar to Bring Power to Every Home by 2019

Aussie book for kids says 9/11 was a conspiracy

I don’t know what to say…

Sorry, wrong thread…

Postpocelipse said:

Modi to Use Solar to Bring Power to Every Home by 2019

Note that his plan does not involve solar in every home: just electricity in every home, thanks to solar.

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Modi to Use Solar to Bring Power to Every Home by 2019

Note that his plan does not involve solar in every home: just electricity in every home, thanks to solar.

I’ve never seen the benefit in placing solar panels in large urban centres on the coast, rather than inland where the sun shines more of the time.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Modi to Use Solar to Bring Power to Every Home by 2019

Note that his plan does not involve solar in every home: just electricity in every home, thanks to solar.

I’ve never seen the benefit in placing solar panels in large urban centres on the coast, rather than inland where the sun shines more of the time.

This.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Modi to Use Solar to Bring Power to Every Home by 2019

Note that his plan does not involve solar in every home: just electricity in every home, thanks to solar.

I’ve never seen the benefit in placing solar panels in large urban centres on the coast, rather than inland where the sun shines more of the time.

Transmission losses to centres of population?

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Note that his plan does not involve solar in every home: just electricity in every home, thanks to solar.

I’ve never seen the benefit in placing solar panels in large urban centres on the coast, rather than inland where the sun shines more of the time.

Transmission losses to centres of population?

There will be an optimum zone for locating solar panels to serve any urban centre, but I very much doubt that it will ever be in the centre or suburbs.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve never seen the benefit in placing solar panels in large urban centres on the coast, rather than inland where the sun shines more of the time.

Transmission losses to centres of population?

There will be an optimum zone for locating solar panels to serve any urban centre, but I very much doubt that it will ever be in the centre or suburbs.

I agree with your main point but to play devil’s advocate, another advantage to putting it on the house is that you’ve already got a structure to put the PV on. When you build a PV power plant, you have to also build the structures to put the PV on.

Of course, when you build a PV power plant you can use a turnable, tunable array to increase capture, and you can use parabolic mirrors, and anyway windpower is cheaper…

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

Transmission losses to centres of population?

There will be an optimum zone for locating solar panels to serve any urban centre, but I very much doubt that it will ever be in the centre or suburbs.

I agree with your main point but to play devil’s advocate, another advantage to putting it on the house is that you’ve already got a structure to put the PV on. When you build a PV power plant, you have to also build the structures to put the PV on.

Of course, when you build a PV power plant you can use a turnable, tunable array to increase capture, and you can use parabolic mirrors, and anyway windpower is cheaper…

Yes, there is that. You can also get the home owners to provide at least part of the capital cost up front, and to provide the land rent-free.

It would be pretty difficult to calculate the true cost/benefit for any proposed project with any degree of certainty.

If I was a market loving Lib supporter I’d suggest some sort of pricing scheme on GHG emissions, and let the market decide.

Are solar plants using PV or is solar thermal more likely to be the future?

pommiejohn said:

Are solar plants using PV or is solar thermal more likely to be the future?

Hard to say. I think it depends on what happens to solar panel prices and efficiency, cost of electricity storage, and how much economies of scale can bring down solar thermal costs.

I’d guess a mixture, to avoid or reduce the need to combine PV with storage facilities.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

There will be an optimum zone for locating solar panels to serve any urban centre, but I very much doubt that it will ever be in the centre or suburbs.

I agree with your main point but to play devil’s advocate, another advantage to putting it on the house is that you’ve already got a structure to put the PV on. When you build a PV power plant, you have to also build the structures to put the PV on.

Of course, when you build a PV power plant you can use a turnable, tunable array to increase capture, and you can use parabolic mirrors, and anyway windpower is cheaper…

Yes, there is that. You can also get the home owners to provide at least part of the capital cost up front, and to provide the land rent-free.

It would be pretty difficult to calculate the true cost/benefit for any proposed project with any degree of certainty.

If I was a market loving Lib supporter I’d suggest some sort of pricing scheme on GHG emissions, and let the market decide.

I’ll stick to my Stalinist “Direct Climate Action” thank you

pommiejohn said:

Are solar plants using PV or is solar thermal more likely to be the future?

Solar thermal

dv said:

I’ll stick to my Stalinist “Direct Climate Action” thank you

I suppose it does have the benefit that you can just dump it when you want to balance the budget without significantly affecting your main support base.

“Not insurmountable, no, but at what cost?”

Oh look, I fully accept that large centralised systems are going to be much cheaper in general. (I am not convinced that that means rooftop solar should not be done: apart from anything else rooftop solar is doable right now and in fact is being done; large renewable plants still face substantial economic and pllitical barriers.)
Just exploring some ideas here.

“Adding energy storage devices would exacerbate the problem, not mitigate it.”

OOI, why? Couldn’t you use such to hold currents down when needed, and then feed back later when possible?

MartinB said:

“Not insurmountable, no, but at what cost?”

Oh look, I fully accept that large centralised systems are going to be much cheaper in general. (I am not convinced that that means rooftop solar should not be done: apart from anything else rooftop solar is doable right now and in fact is being done; large renewable plants still face substantial economic and pllitical barriers.)
Just exploring some ideas here.

“Adding energy storage devices would exacerbate the problem, not mitigate it.”

OOI, why? Couldn’t you use such to hold currents down when needed, and then feed back later when possible?

I do think that there is scope for putting solar panels over large parking areas:
- You get the land for nothing
- You provide protection from the weather
- The cars provide short term backup storage to even out peaks and troughs in supply and demand (when we get a reasonable proportion of electric cars).
- The parkers get subsidised parking and/or a free recharge.

>Surely that’s not insurmountable?

Problem is when it goes too far they can’t turn the power stations off, they can turn into big electric motors and suck clouds in the stacks, contributing to global cloudlessness.

All that R in wires and transformers (contributing to source resistance), much as it wastes power as heat, has been built around and does have some benefits. Not just on any single line in which case there may be a high fault current, but other lines branched off elsewhere.

R (of Z) softens the fault currents, and all those devices for protection are rated at maximum currents for opening/breaking/fusing, including the (parameters) speed/lag a device comes near to operating, and the mechanical or physical change that breaks the circuit, which of the latter arcing isn’t complete until any arc is extinguished (and remains so).

Voltages on different parts of the distribution system may be more difficult to keep within ideal parameters also.

Also local solar providing power for air conditioning does have the benefit of providing the power just when it is most needed, thus reducing the need for additional power stations for peak load conditions.

So the question is, why aren’t all shopping centre car parks covered with solar panels yet?

Also, has anyone done the numbers to look at the combined effect of reduced GHG emissions and reduced albedo (from all those black solar panels), compared with say continuing to use fossil fuels but painting the same area of land white, to offset the GHG effect with increased albedo?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Also local solar providing power for air conditioning does have the benefit of providing the power just when it is most needed, thus reducing the need for additional power stations for peak load conditions.

So the question is, why aren’t all shopping centre car parks covered with solar panels yet?

The usual, businesses unwilling to spend money.

>Also, has anyone done the numbers to look at the combined effect of reduced GHG emissions and reduced albedo (from all those black solar panels), compared with say continuing to use fossil fuels but painting the same area of land white, to offset the GHG effect with increased albedo?

If you could crunch those numbers today along with some trend parameters, and have them on my desk by 5:30pm that’d be appreciated, you’re just the man for the job.

pommiejohn said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Also local solar providing power for air conditioning does have the benefit of providing the power just when it is most needed, thus reducing the need for additional power stations for peak load conditions.

So the question is, why aren’t all shopping centre car parks covered with solar panels yet?

The usual, businesses unwilling to spend money.

Yeah, we need some sort of price on GHG emissions, to give them an incentive.

The Rev Dodgson said:

pommiejohn said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Also local solar providing power for air conditioning does have the benefit of providing the power just when it is most needed, thus reducing the need for additional power stations for peak load conditions.

So the question is, why aren’t all shopping centre car parks covered with solar panels yet?

The usual, businesses unwilling to spend money.

Yeah, we need some sort of price on GHG emissions, to give them an incentive.

Impossible, they promised no new taxes.

you misheard, they said no new taxis

ChrispenEvan said:

you misheard, they said no new taxis

Ah. Grubs!

Michael V said:

ChrispenEvan said:

you misheard, they said no new taxis

Ah. Grubs!

ROFL

Solar panels drain Sun’s energy

WIT is adamant that there’s no immediate danger, however. “Currently, solar panels are an energy niche, and do not pose a serious risk to the sun. But if we converted our grids to solar energy in a big way, with panels on domestic homes and commercial businesses, and paving our parking lots with panels, we’d start seeing very serious problems over time. If every home in the world had solar panels on their roofs, global temperatures would drop by as much as thirty degrees over twenty years, and the sun could die out within three hundred to four hundred years.” – See more at: http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/#sthash.tYJb3hKl.dpuf

Postpocelipse said:

Solar panels drain Sun’s energy

WIT is adamant that there’s no immediate danger, however. “Currently, solar panels are an energy niche, and do not pose a serious risk to the sun. But if we converted our grids to solar energy in a big way, with panels on domestic homes and commercial businesses, and paving our parking lots with panels, we’d start seeing very serious problems over time. If every home in the world had solar panels on their roofs, global temperatures would drop by as much as thirty degrees over twenty years, and the sun could die out within three hundred to four hundred years.” – See more at: http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/#sthash.tYJb3hKl.dpuf

What absolute twaddle.

“National Report (nationalreport.net) is a satirical website devoted to often subtle parodies of real news which convince the unwary. “

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Solar panels drain Sun’s energy

WIT is adamant that there’s no immediate danger, however. “Currently, solar panels are an energy niche, and do not pose a serious risk to the sun. But if we converted our grids to solar energy in a big way, with panels on domestic homes and commercial businesses, and paving our parking lots with panels, we’d start seeing very serious problems over time. If every home in the world had solar panels on their roofs, global temperatures would drop by as much as thirty degrees over twenty years, and the sun could die out within three hundred to four hundred years.” – See more at: http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/#sthash.tYJb3hKl.dpuf

What absolute twaddle.

entertaining though……..

Postpocelipse said:

Solar panels drain Sun’s energy

WIT is adamant that there’s no immediate danger, however. “Currently, solar panels are an energy niche, and do not pose a serious risk to the sun. But if we converted our grids to solar energy in a big way, with panels on domestic homes and commercial businesses, and paving our parking lots with panels, we’d start seeing very serious problems over time. If every home in the world had solar panels on their roofs, global temperatures would drop by as much as thirty degrees over twenty years, and the sun could die out within three hundred to four hundred years.” – See more at: http://nationalreport.net/solar-panels-drain-suns-energy-experts-say/#sthash.tYJb3hKl.dpuf

Roffle.

“If every home in the world had solar panels on their roofs, global temperatures would drop by as much as thirty degrees over twenty years, and the sun could die out within three hundred to four hundred years.”

Say what?

Is this a satirical site?

Yes, and so is nationalreport.net

MartinB said:

Is this a satirical site?

At least one person seems not to think so:

“Solar panels actually drain the sun of it’s energy!

I’m reading this trying to find the catch….“the study was commissioned in August 2011 by the Halliburton corporation”…there it is.

I hope the people that actually did the study are laughed out of the scientific community. “

Though to be fair to the braininess of the combined electric internet community, I could only find one like that.

CSIRO Newcastle solar breakthrough for supercritical steam

Researchers have used solar energy to generate hot and pressurised ‘supercritical’ steam at the highest temperatures ever achieved outside of fossil sources.

Supercritical solar steam is water pressurised at enormous force and heated using solar radiation.

Around 90 per cent of Australia’s electricity is generated using fossil fuel, but only a small number of power stations are based on the more advanced supercritical steam.

The world record set at the CSIRO’s Energy Centre in Newcastle this month, was at a pressure of 23.5 megapascals and temperatures up to 570 degrees Celsius.

Project leader, Robbie McNaughton says it is the combination of pressure and temperature demonstrated at scale, that makes it such a breakthrough for solar power.

He says the development means one day the sun could be used to drive power stations instead of coal or gas.

read more

the mining lobby will shut it down

New silent wind turbine could generate half of a homes electric needs, says company The Archimedes