‘Dreamtime’ and ‘The Dreaming’: who dreamed up these terms?

We’re all, it seems, familiar with the terms “Dreamtime” and “The Dreaming” in relation to Aboriginal Australian culture, but – as I noted in the first part of this series – such terms are grossly inadequate: they carry significant baggage and erase the complexities of the original concepts.

So how did this terminology enter the English language?

In the late 19th century Francis Gillen, the post- and telegraph stationmaster in Alice Springs – an Arrernte speaker (spelled Arunta at that time) and keen ethnologist – became the first person on record to use the expression “dream times” as a translation for the complex Arrernte word-concept Ülchurringa (“Alcheringa”; “Altyerrenge” or “Altyerr”), the name of Arrernte people’s system of religious belief.

Gillen, who had begun working in Alice Springs in 1892, collaborated with Walter Baldwin Spencer, a Lancashire-born biologist and anthropologist in “studying” the Arrernte. By all accounts, Gillen had forged mutually respectful relationships with the local Arrernte people.

Baldwin Spencer popularised Gillen’s words in his 1896 account of the Horn Expedition. Without academic endorsement by someone of Baldwin Spencer’s standing, Gillen’s translation would in all likelihood never have taken off, let alone entered populist discourse.
(more in link)
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I have a facsimile copy of Dawson’s “Australian Aborigines” and he (or more probably his daughter, who learnt the local languages) has a list of words and phrases in three of the local languages. I wasn’t sure which to look up for something equivalent to Dreamtime, but here are some possibilities from his list:

Fable, or story Keeyark keeh keeh (Chaap wuurong) Koae koae (Kuurn kopan noot) Koitpa koae koae (Peek whurrong)
Long time ago Mulla meea (Chaap wuurong) Wuulaekitto (Kuurn kopan noot) Mulli yitto (Peek whurrong)
Supernatural Poitka gnarnerk “hair on end” (Chaap wuurong) Mirtun gnarrarnun (Kuurn kopan noot) Parmaen paemun (Peek whurrong)

I guess the first one is probably the closest to European understanding of the time. These are for the Western District of Victoria and Dawson’s document was published in 1881. He was a rather amazing settler.

This is quite interesting material.

Was there a question or point of further discussion in relation to this?

buffy said:

I have a facsimile copy of Dawson’s “Australian Aborigines” and he (or more probably his daughter, who learnt the local languages) has a list of words and phrases in three of the local languages. I wasn’t sure which to look up for something equivalent to Dreamtime, but here are some possibilities from his list:

Fable, or story Keeyark keeh keeh (Chaap wuurong) Koae koae (Kuurn kopan noot) Koitpa koae koae (Peek whurrong)
Long time ago Mulla meea (Chaap wuurong) Wuulaekitto (Kuurn kopan noot) Mulli yitto (Peek whurrong)
Supernatural Poitka gnarnerk “hair on end” (Chaap wuurong) Mirtun gnarrarnun (Kuurn kopan noot) Parmaen paemun (Peek whurrong)

I guess the first one is probably the closest to European understanding of the time. These are for the Western District of Victoria and Dawson’s document was published in 1881. He was a rather amazing settler.

I think that part of the point is that none of these terms do justice to the complex of ideas: it is not just a fable, it is a description of how things are; it is not just long ago, it is co-existant with the present; it is not just supernatural, but is part of the natural fabric of the world.

MartinB said:

This is quite interesting material.

Was there a question or point of further discussion in relation to this?

If you ask one, there will be.

Oh, I see you have.

MartinB said:

buffy said:

I have a facsimile copy of Dawson’s “Australian Aborigines” and he (or more probably his daughter, who learnt the local languages) has a list of words and phrases in three of the local languages. I wasn’t sure which to look up for something equivalent to Dreamtime, but here are some possibilities from his list:

Fable, or story Keeyark keeh keeh (Chaap wuurong) Koae koae (Kuurn kopan noot) Koitpa koae koae (Peek whurrong)
Long time ago Mulla meea (Chaap wuurong) Wuulaekitto (Kuurn kopan noot) Mulli yitto (Peek whurrong)
Supernatural Poitka gnarnerk “hair on end” (Chaap wuurong) Mirtun gnarrarnun (Kuurn kopan noot) Parmaen paemun (Peek whurrong)

I guess the first one is probably the closest to European understanding of the time. These are for the Western District of Victoria and Dawson’s document was published in 1881. He was a rather amazing settler.

I think that part of the point is that none of these terms do justice to the complex of ideas: it is not just a fable, it is a description of how things are; it is not just long ago, it is co-existant with the present; it is not just supernatural, but is part of the natural fabric of the world.

Yes, that’s part of it, but the other thing is that there are dozens of separate, in some cases quite distinct, mythologies and worldviews being lumped under one term (a term that is not really analogous to any of the Australian language terms for the idea), as though there is some single Aboriginal culture.

dv said:

Yes, that’s part of it, but the other thing is that there are dozens of separate, in some cases quite distinct, mythologies and worldviews being lumped under one term (a term that is not really analogous to any of the Australian language terms for the idea), as though there is some single Aboriginal culture.

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

PM 2Ring said:

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

Oh dear. You’ll never guess the (probable) author of that first item on the Talk page…

PM 2Ring said:

PM 2Ring said:

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

Oh dear. You’ll never guess the (probable) author of that first item on the Talk page…

ROFLMFAOACMAMWNA

PM 2Ring said:

dv said:

Yes, that’s part of it, but the other thing is that there are dozens of separate, in some cases quite distinct, mythologies and worldviews being lumped under one term (a term that is not really analogous to any of the Australian language terms for the idea), as though there is some single Aboriginal culture.

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

Seems Colin leslie Dean has be active (and Deleted) there as well :)

PM 2Ring said:

PM 2Ring said:

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

Oh dear. You’ll never guess the (probable) author of that first item on the Talk page…

Fucking gold!

jjjust moi said:

PM 2Ring said:

dv said:

Yes, that’s part of it, but the other thing is that there are dozens of separate, in some cases quite distinct, mythologies and worldviews being lumped under one term (a term that is not really analogous to any of the Australian language terms for the idea), as though there is some single Aboriginal culture.

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

Seems Colin leslie Dean has be active (and Deleted) there as well :)

Please note the PDF referenced as “Further reading:” in that first item; Gamahucher Press is Colin Leslie Dean’s self-publishing “enterprise”.

PM 2Ring said:

jjjust moi said:

PM 2Ring said:

You may not be surprised to learn that that objection is made in the very first item on the Wikipedia Talk page for Dreamtime .

Seems Colin leslie Dean has be active (and Deleted) there as well :)

Please note the PDF referenced as “Further reading:” in that first item; Gamahucher Press is Colin Leslie Dean’s self-publishing “enterprise”.

Seems like we should actively post that Colin Leslie Dean is a bullshit artist.

Kingy said:

PM 2Ring said:

jjjust moi said:

Seems Colin leslie Dean has be active (and Deleted) there as well :)

Please note the PDF referenced as “Further reading:” in that first item; Gamahucher Press is Colin Leslie Dean’s self-publishing “enterprise”.

Seems like we should actively post that Colin Leslie Dean is a bullshit artist.

Don’t worry, they’re are a wakeup to him.

MartinB said:

buffy said:

I have a facsimile copy of Dawson’s “Australian Aborigines” and he (or more probably his daughter, who learnt the local languages) has a list of words and phrases in three of the local languages. I wasn’t sure which to look up for something equivalent to Dreamtime, but here are some possibilities from his list:

Fable, or story Keeyark keeh keeh (Chaap wuurong) Koae koae (Kuurn kopan noot) Koitpa koae koae (Peek whurrong)
Long time ago Mulla meea (Chaap wuurong) Wuulaekitto (Kuurn kopan noot) Mulli yitto (Peek whurrong)
Supernatural Poitka gnarnerk “hair on end” (Chaap wuurong) Mirtun gnarrarnun (Kuurn kopan noot) Parmaen paemun (Peek whurrong)

I guess the first one is probably the closest to European understanding of the time. These are for the Western District of Victoria and Dawson’s document was published in 1881. He was a rather amazing settler.

I think that part of the point is that none of these terms do justice to the complex of ideas: it is not just a fable, it is a description of how things are; it is not just long ago, it is co-existant with the present; it is not just supernatural, but is part of the natural fabric of the world.

Yes, the concept was something completely different from the European mindset, so I guess it would have been rather difficult to understand, particularly with language in the way as well. And as mentioned, it’s not as if there was only one people here anyway. From our distance in time we might have a better understanding..

Dawson’s book has a chapter called “Superstitions and diseases” which is probably the closest he comes to trying to explain such things.

I have to go to work – looks like the National Library has a digitized version now (I spent a lot of money on a facsimile copy many years ago).

http://nla.gov.au/nla.aus-nk9620

dv said:

Yes, that’s part of it, but the other thing is that there are dozens of separate, in some cases quite distinct, mythologies and worldviews being lumped under one term (a term that is not really analogous to any of the Australian language terms for the idea), as though there is some single Aboriginal culture.

That is certainly true of many things related to Indigenous Australians.

You will note that I referred to a “complex of ideas” rather than a single worldview.