An opener only

an example:

Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

deal with this and
ensuing answers here

or

further,
how to deal
with the pledge?

roughbarked said:

how to deal
with the pledge?

• Step 1. Don’t take it.
• Step 2. See Step 1.

sibeen said:

roughbarked said:

how to deal
with the pledge?

• Step 1. Don’t take it.
• Step 2. See Step 1.
  

too smart.

not that it doesn’t qualify.. back to step one Question one.

roughbarked said:

An opener only

an example:

Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

deal with this and
ensuing answers here

or

further,
how to deal
with the pledge?

roughy, I have no idea what you are even asking…

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

An opener only

an example:

Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

deal with this and
ensuing answers here

or

further,
how to deal
with the pledge?

roughy, I have no idea what you are even asking…

Facilitate yourself with a copy of the twelve{12} steps and of the AA pledge. Peruse it all in the veil of the question, decide whether it requires your attention. Otherwise, move on from this example and create one of your own.

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

An opener only

an example:

Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

deal with this and
ensuing answers here

or

further,
how to deal
with the pledge?

roughy, I have no idea what you are even asking…

Facilitate yourself with a copy of the twelve{12} steps and of the AA pledge. Peruse it all in the veil of the question, decide whether it requires your attention. Otherwise, move on from this example and create one of your own.

I know what the 12 steps are, but am unsure of exactly what they are an example of.

What exactly is the question you are asking here?

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

roughy, I have no idea what you are even asking…

Facilitate yourself with a copy of the twelve{12} steps and of the AA pledge. Peruse it all in the veil of the question, decide whether it requires your attention. Otherwise, move on from this example and create one of your own.

I know what the 12 steps are, but am unsure of exactly what they are an example of.

What exactly is the question you are asking here?

could rewrite the 12 steps., is one of many questions which may be asked of science.

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

Facilitate yourself with a copy of the twelve{12} steps and of the AA pledge. Peruse it all in the veil of the question, decide whether it requires your attention. Otherwise, move on from this example and create one of your own.

I know what the 12 steps are, but am unsure of exactly what they are an example of.

What exactly is the question you are asking here?

could rewrite the 12 steps., is one of many questions which may be asked of science.

ie; I know that there are ways to look at it in ‘the big book’

and I know this is a very odd question.

For those who aren’t able to use google:

http://www.aa.org.au/members/twelve-steps.php

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

Facilitate yourself with a copy of the twelve{12} steps and of the AA pledge. Peruse it all in the veil of the question, decide whether it requires your attention. Otherwise, move on from this example and create one of your own.

I know what the 12 steps are, but am unsure of exactly what they are an example of.

What exactly is the question you are asking here?

could rewrite the 12 steps., is one of many questions which may be asked of science.

The 12 step program is a philosophy, it’s a way for recovering substance abusers to control addictive behaviors in their lives.

I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered a scientific approach; I mean it has been changed and adapted to treat a wide range of different addictions.

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

I know what the 12 steps are, but am unsure of exactly what they are an example of.

What exactly is the question you are asking here?

could rewrite the 12 steps., is one of many questions which may be asked of science.

The 12 step program is a philosophy, it’s a way for recovering substance abusers to control addictive behaviors in their lives.

I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered a scientific approach; I mean it has been changed and adapted to treat a wide range of different addictions.

true and yes it is an extreme end use program. I was just wondering along any lines of how the hell any of us need to rely upon a fabrication to attain truth?

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

could rewrite the 12 steps., is one of many questions which may be asked of science.

The 12 step program is a philosophy, it’s a way for recovering substance abusers to control addictive behaviors in their lives.

I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered a scientific approach; I mean it has been changed and adapted to treat a wide range of different addictions.

true and yes it is an extreme end use program. I was just wondering along any lines of how the hell any of us need to rely upon a fabrication to attain truth?

I don’t know what you mean by that, what fabrication and what truth?

The 12 steps are just guiding principles, they are simply used to modify behavior. Sure there is a spiritual component but this is true of a great many psychological treatments programs.

The 12 step program is designed to illustrate to an individual that the way they are behaving is damaging the lives of themselves and others, to accept the truth in that they they have a problem and to provide a support mechanism… that’s really all it is…

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

The 12 step program is a philosophy, it’s a way for recovering substance abusers to control addictive behaviors in their lives.

I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered a scientific approach; I mean it has been changed and adapted to treat a wide range of different addictions.

true and yes it is an extreme end use program. I was just wondering along any lines of how the hell any of us need to rely upon a fabrication to attain truth?

I don’t know what you mean by that, what fabrication and what truth?

The 12 steps are just guiding principles, they are simply used to modify behavior. Sure there is a spiritual component but this is true of a great many psychological treatments programs.

The 12 step program is designed to illustrate to an individual that the way they are behaving is damaging the lives of themselves and others, to accept the truth in that they they have a problem and to provide a support mechanism… that’s really all it is…

hmm

in all it’s simplicity it is almost infallible. No disagreement. Was simply looking for a way for science to maybe not displace a higher entity from the argument but more to replace it with any argument that could help with steps further than the first two. Perhaps I’m missing something but maybe I’m discounting brain damage.

Roughbarked, are you an alcoholic?

Verne said:

Roughbarked, are you an alcoholic?

This isn’t an AA meeting.
Sure you are able to ask the question but My first answer always is. as ion if you asked me what is a hippie?., would be, so what is an alcoholic or a hippie for that matter of fact?

Are you?

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

true and yes it is an extreme end use program. I was just wondering along any lines of how the hell any of us need to rely upon a fabrication to attain truth?

I don’t know what you mean by that, what fabrication and what truth?

The 12 steps are just guiding principles, they are simply used to modify behavior. Sure there is a spiritual component but this is true of a great many psychological treatments programs.

The 12 step program is designed to illustrate to an individual that the way they are behaving is damaging the lives of themselves and others, to accept the truth in that they they have a problem and to provide a support mechanism… that’s really all it is…

hmm

in all it’s simplicity it is almost infallible. No disagreement. Was simply looking for a way for science to maybe not displace a higher entity from the argument but more to replace it with any argument that could help with steps further than the first two. Perhaps I’m missing something but maybe I’m discounting brain damage.

you don’t need science to replace the word ‘God’… make it you deity of choice… it could be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The spirituality component is just there to help focus the individual on the bigger picture – to make them think of others instead of just themselves… it also helps to add focus. But this could easily be replaced by non-religious reflection and meditation.

roughbarked said:

Verne said:

Roughbarked, are you an alcoholic?

This isn’t an AA meeting.
Sure you are able to ask the question but My first answer always is. as ion if you asked me what is a hippie?., would be, so what is an alcoholic or a hippie for that matter of fact?

Are you?

:rollseyes:

I’m off to bed…

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

Verne said:

Roughbarked, are you an alcoholic?

This isn’t an AA meeting.
Sure you are able to ask the question but My first answer always is. as ion if you asked me what is a hippie?., would be, so what is an alcoholic or a hippie for that matter of fact?

Are you?

:rollseyes:

I’m off to bed…

;)

No I’m not Roughbarked, but I have many other failings which, cumulatively, are perhaps as perplexing and detrimental.

diddly-squat said:

roughbarked said:

diddly-squat said:

I don’t know what you mean by that, what fabrication and what truth?

The 12 steps are just guiding principles, they are simply used to modify behavior. Sure there is a spiritual component but this is true of a great many psychological treatments programs.

The 12 step program is designed to illustrate to an individual that the way they are behaving is damaging the lives of themselves and others, to accept the truth in that they they have a problem and to provide a support mechanism… that’s really all it is…

hmm

in all it’s simplicity it is almost infallible. No disagreement. Was simply looking for a way for science to maybe not displace a higher entity from the argument but more to replace it with any argument that could help with steps further than the first two. Perhaps I’m missing something but maybe I’m discounting brain damage.

you don’t need science to replace the word ‘God’… make it you deity of choice… it could be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The spirituality component is just there to help focus the individual on the bigger picture – to make them think of others instead of just themselves… it also helps to add focus. But this could easily be replaced by non-religious reflection and meditation.

hmm that’s possibly as good an answer as I’d expect to get.

Verne said:

No I’m not Roughbarked, but I have many other failings which, cumulatively, are perhaps as perplexing and detrimental.

Don’t we all?

roughbarked said:

Verne said:

No I’m not Roughbarked, but I have many other failings which, cumulatively, are perhaps as perplexing and detrimental.

Don’t we all?

Anyway. I only tossed this up because the possible science has been done in many regards but what more science needs to be looked at, in many other instances. I deliberately chose a difficult one for a reason. If this one is otherwise insoluble, then move on.. find and fix is the motto of the OP.

Good question.

I think the AA stuff is symptomatic of the way in which the huge group of a-religious people are effectively marginalised and ignored by many mainstream groups.

AA is supposedly a very effective way of helping those who need to get off alcohol, but the wording they use must surely greatly reduce their effectiveness with a significant proportion of the alcoholic population.

It wouldn’t be difficult to re-write everything in terms of releasing the power within each individual, rather than stating that belief in some form of God with a capital G is a necessity for the process to succeed.

The theists could keep the bullshit version if they wanted to.

>>Good question

Yes. In fact I was contemplating this very thing after I heard some drug-addled surfer talking about how the 12 steps had helped him.

>>I think the AA stuff is symptomatic of the way in which the huge group of a-religious people are effectively marginalised and ignored by many mainstream groups.

A bit harsh I think Rev.

The surfer was not religious and said that he was told to substitute “God” with “god – whatever you conceive that to be”.

Ian said:

>>Good question

Yes. In fact I was contemplating this very thing after I heard some drug-addled surfer talking about how the 12 steps had helped him.

>>I think the AA stuff is symptomatic of the way in which the huge group of a-religious people are effectively marginalised and ignored by many mainstream groups.

A bit harsh I think Rev.

The surfer was not religious and said that he was told to substitute “God” with “god – whatever you conceive that to be”.

Nonetheless, there must be a large number of alcoholics who find the use of the G word another reason to not pursue going to an AA meeting, and if it is as effective as they say it is, that’s the last thing they need.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Nonetheless, there must be a large number of alcoholics who find the use of the G word another reason to not pursue going to an AA meeting, and if it is as effective as they say it is, that’s the last thing they need.

Oh, I agree. It puts me right off them, although I don’t have any need of their counsel.

hic

Ian said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Nonetheless, there must be a large number of alcoholics who find the use of the G word another reason to not pursue going to an AA meeting, and if it is as effective as they say it is, that’s the last thing they need.

Oh, I agree. It puts me right off them, although I don’t have any need of their counsel.

hic

I dare say that people only resort to AA or the 12 steps when there appears no easier way to solve the problem. There are many ways to change and improve. Quite a few of these are more in line with the old adage; idle hands are the devils hands.

Find or recreate a purpose, a direction and set out along that path. Works for most people I’d venture a guess.

Part of the AA is the twelve steps and the pledge. Other parts are the traditions and the concepts, both also twelve.

It will be pointed out that all available medical testimony indicates that alcoholism is a progressive illness, that it cannot be cured in the ordinary sense of the term, but that it can be arrested through total abstinence from alcohol in any form.

Also that AA or even God can’t help some who have progressed too far or are otherwise unable to help themselves.

roughbarked said:

An opener only

an example:

Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

deal with this and
ensuing answers here

or

further,
how to deal
with the pledge?

most likely you could invoke the power within yourself but this would take more than a simple mantra asking god to help

people who are addicted have got there because they are unhappy, they need to work out why they are unhappy and some help to work out how they can get happy

the body is a huge part of the equation when it comes to happiness, being sick or below par can cause general unhappiness

you’d need to turn to self discipline and fitness/ diet to help you out the hole

a boot camp would be useful and or a long walk exploring, those experiences can be used to help you in the future

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

An opener only

an example:

Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

deal with this and
ensuing answers here

or

further,
how to deal
with the pledge?

most likely you could invoke the power within yourself but this would take more than a simple mantra asking god to help

people who are addicted have got there because they are unhappy, they need to work out why they are unhappy and some help to work out how they can get happy

the body is a huge part of the equation when it comes to happiness, being sick or below par can cause general unhappiness

you’d need to turn to self discipline and fitness/ diet to help you out the hole

a boot camp would be useful and or a long walk exploring, those experiences can be used to help you in the future

an additional method would be memorising a poem , something that means something to you. you could recite this on a regular basis.

the greeks I believe turned to their poets for guidance

in theory a poet is some learned person, they might have some other literary bent

in a nutshell I believe that you must give form and structure to a mind and body that has gone Dionysian haywire

you give structure to the mind and body

in such times these vulnerable people can be captured by the religions , independent thought and empowerment through the self is loathed because it takes away the power of the “almighty”. we are encouraged to invoke god in times of turmoil rather than invoke the self and the solution.

> Could science rewrite the twelve steps of AA Could atheists and agnostics find unison here?

There is an organisation of self-help groups called “Grow” that has rewritten the twelve steps of AA for their own purposes, and has recently rewritten them again to make them more accessible for atheists and agnostics. The mention of “God” in the AA twelve steps is enough to turn me away.

As for science rewriting the twelve steps – that’s a very interesting question. I wonder what Freud, Jung and Adler would have considered as appropriate alternatives.