Date: 19/08/2014 13:37:54
From: Ian
ID: 579174
Subject: LED Driver

Any electonicians in the house?

What driver/transformer do need to run a 5W LED lamp?

It’s a replacement for a 50W halogen downlight. (MR16 with 2 pins)

I have brought two power supplies home from the lighting shop. The first one failed to start at all and the second one (10W 12V Constant Voltage Dimmable LED Driver) worked fine for about 8 hours then caused the lamp the flicker.. when turned off and on still flickered.. and then wouldn’t start.

This talks around the problem.

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Date: 19/08/2014 13:43:19
From: wookiemeister
ID: 579177
Subject: re: LED Driver

I’m looking at a jaycar kit kc5389

says it needs 12vdc – 1A minimum power supply

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Date: 19/08/2014 13:57:49
From: Ian
ID: 579187
Subject: re: LED Driver

wookiemeister said:


I’m looking at a jaycar kit kc5389

says it needs 12vdc – 1A minimum power supply

The one I’ve got is similar to this one
but its output is eff,800ma.. so pretty much the same.

Sounds to me like it needs a bigger load to work properly.

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Date: 19/08/2014 14:01:17
From: wookiemeister
ID: 579189
Subject: re: LED Driver

Ian said:


wookiemeister said:

I’m looking at a jaycar kit kc5389

says it needs 12vdc – 1A minimum power supply

The one I’ve got is similar to this one
but its output is eff,800ma.. so pretty much the same.

Sounds to me like it needs a bigger load to work properly.


the way I’d look at it is that if you have more capacity to provide current then go for it, use a bigger transformer

I’d stick with the kits or an off the shelf product

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Date: 19/08/2014 14:07:50
From: Ian
ID: 579192
Subject: re: LED Driver

Did you have a look at that link wookie?

Electronic low-voltage transformers

The ELVT presents a more difficult problem. Moreover, many makers of MR16 lighting systems have transitioned to ELVTs as a lower-cost, smaller, lighter, and generally more-power-efficient alternative to magnetic transformers. An ELVT switching converter operates over a range from 30 kHz to over 100 kHz. A small magnetic transformer forms part of the circuit to provide galvanic isolation. There are ELVT controller ICs available, but the cost constraints that accompany high-volume products such as MR16 lighting systems mean that most ELVTs used in lighting applications don’t have an IC or, for that matter, a control loop with a feedback circuit like the ones found in DC-DC or AC-DC power supplies. Instead, most ELVTs are self oscillating, using the half-bridge topology shown in Fig. 2.

FIG. 3. Lamp input current (top) and output voltage (bottom) of an ELVT driving a single 35W halogen MR16 bulb.
FIG. 3.
Rather than producing a simple 50- or 60-Hz sine wave with an amplitude of 12VACRMS, the ELVT output consists of an oscillation at the switching frequency that forms an envelope at the desired amplitude and line frequency. Fig. 3 shows a typical waveform from an ELVT driving a single 35W halogen MR16. The top plot is the current into the MR16 lamp, and the bottom plot is the output voltage of the ELVT.

The plots reveal a key problem with ELVTs and LEDs. A typical low-voltage, halogen MR16 lamp draws anywhere from 25W to 50W. From an electrical standpoint the lamp load appears somewhat inductive, but mostly resistive. The ELVT is designed for that load.

In the region of each zero crossing in the signal envelope, even the relatively heavy load of a series of 50W halogen bulbs is not enough to get the converter started until a minimum voltage is reached. You see this in the dead zone following the end of each AC half-cycle in the plot. The ELVT doesn’t operate for some amount of time at the start of the subsequent half cycle.

A typical SSL MR16 uses three 1W LEDs and has an average-quality DC-DC converter LED driver circuit with a power efficiency of 80%. The input power is only 3.75W. To make matters worse, the impedance of a closed-loop DC-DC converter that might be used in the LED lamp is negative. The negative impedance is due to the fact that a closed-loop, switching converter draws less current as the input voltage increases and vice-versa, the opposite of how a resistor, or a halogen lamp, behaves.

A self-oscillating ELVT that was designed for a heavy resistive load, but is instead presented with a light load with negative impedance, can result in flickering light, audible buzzing, or a complete failure to start up. Our experiments show that a typical ELVT failed even when loaded with three 4W LED lamps. With a fourth 4W lamp added, the tested ELVT operated as intended.

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Date: 19/08/2014 14:34:36
From: Ian
ID: 579206
Subject: re: LED Driver

Anywho, thanks wookie.

Back later

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Date: 19/08/2014 15:17:08
From: wookiemeister
ID: 579231
Subject: re: LED Driver

Ian said:


Anywho, thanks wookie.

Back later


fell asleep, buggered

will look again later

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Date: 19/08/2014 15:20:16
From: wookiemeister
ID: 579232
Subject: re: LED Driver

I looked at the material

a transformer used to run leds will at some point have the load side rectified to DC

I don’t really see what the problem is , you’ve got heaps of led drivers out there running without problem

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Date: 19/08/2014 15:26:55
From: PM 2Ring
ID: 579235
Subject: re: LED Driver

wookiemeister said:


I don’t really see what the problem is , you’ve got heaps of led drivers out there running without problem

I think that the problem is trying to run LEDs off a power supply which was designed for halogen bulbs. The LEDs don’t draw enough current and don’t look like a nice resistive load to the PS, so the PS doesn’t function properly.

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Date: 19/08/2014 15:31:09
From: wookiemeister
ID: 579237
Subject: re: LED Driver

PM 2Ring said:


wookiemeister said:

I don’t really see what the problem is , you’ve got heaps of led drivers out there running without problem

I think that the problem is trying to run LEDs off a power supply which was designed for halogen bulbs. The LEDs don’t draw enough current and don’t look like a nice resistive load to the PS, so the PS doesn’t function properly.


hmmm I thought that’s why you had dedicated LED drivers in the first place, they are a piece of kit designed to run LEDs alone

I scanned the article and wondered why they were talking about halogens and then gave up

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Date: 19/08/2014 15:32:03
From: Cymek
ID: 579238
Subject: re: LED Driver

PM 2Ring said:


wookiemeister said:

I don’t really see what the problem is , you’ve got heaps of led drivers out there running without problem

I think that the problem is trying to run LEDs off a power supply which was designed for halogen bulbs. The LEDs don’t draw enough current and don’t look like a nice resistive load to the PS, so the PS doesn’t function properly.

Resistive is futile

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Date: 19/08/2014 15:58:39
From: Ian
ID: 579251
Subject: re: LED Driver

wookiemeister said:


I looked at the material

a transformer used to run leds will at some point have the load side rectified to DC

I don’t really see what the problem is , you’ve got heaps of led drivers out there running without problem

No neither do I.. they’re only shop people and not techs.

I just thought that someone might have had the same problem or know what the driver spec should look like.

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Date: 19/08/2014 16:03:39
From: Ian
ID: 579253
Subject: re: LED Driver

PM 2Ring said:

I think that the problem is trying to run LEDs off a power supply which was designed for halogen bulbs. The LEDs don’t draw enough current and don’t look like a nice resistive load to the PS, so the PS doesn’t function properly.

No. It (supposed to be) a dedicated LED driver suitable for a 5W LED.

I just posted the article because it seemed to point to some difficulties in designing a driver for a low draw device.

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Date: 19/08/2014 17:34:42
From: nut
ID: 579300
Subject: re: LED Driver

Is there a dimmer on the circuit?

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:10:56
From: transition
ID: 579310
Subject: re: LED Driver

the LED light assembly
which am not sure exactly
an onboard power supply
for 12V let’s say

it’ll be meant to work
within a range near that
say 10.5-14.3V expect
automotive range ya get

and DC ought not forget
if it is in fact what you want
on limited info’ am correct
keepin’ V range important

a power supply to do job
it needs to regulate
flag and droop not
while supplying the current

if the onboard regulator
has Safe Operating Area
such protections sorta
input voltage high maybe
or too high thermal/power
it’ll fold back you see

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:13:28
From: Ian
ID: 579311
Subject: re: LED Driver

nut said:


Is there a dimmer on the circuit?

No

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:14:44
From: Ian
ID: 579312
Subject: re: LED Driver

transition said:


the LED light assembly
which am not sure exactly
an onboard power supply
for 12V let’s say

it’ll be meant to work
within a range near that
say 10.5-14.3V expect
automotive range ya get

and DC ought not forget
if it is in fact what you want
on limited info’ am correct
keepin’ V range important

a power supply to do job
it needs to regulate
flag and droop not
while supplying the current

if the onboard regulator
has Safe Operating Area
such protections sorta
input voltage high maybe
or too high thermal/power
it’ll fold back you see

ummmm.. no.. not without the sheet music

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:19:16
From: Divine Angel
ID: 579313
Subject: re: LED Driver

Ian said:

ummmm.. no.. not without the sheet music

LOL

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:25:46
From: transition
ID: 579321
Subject: re: LED Driver

so your arrangement has this….?

“The ELVT is really not a transformer but a switching-converter circuit that presents a much bigger challenge to designing an LED retrofit lamp”

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:35:23
From: Ian
ID: 579323
Subject: re: LED Driver

Ja.. just got to get hold of the right ELVT ♫♫ I spose ♪♪

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:40:10
From: transition
ID: 579325
Subject: re: LED Driver

switching ps used for heavier and mostly resistive loads (halogen lights) may go a bit silly on small reactive loads, but more to the point it may look so noisy to the equipment it’s driving it causes problems.

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Date: 19/08/2014 18:57:16
From: transition
ID: 579333
Subject: re: LED Driver

Should have said before depart, that regulators (and of their circuit application arrangements) commonly have a low output current threshold at which the voltage regulation is within specs. Meaning like the minimum output current will be specified at which it maintains within +/- voltage. So there’s a minimum load (higher R) at which point they might tend above the desired +/- voltage parameters (or they’ll look intermittent on a scope, trying to keep the voltage down). Complicated further in the case of reactive loads.

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Date: 20/08/2014 15:18:13
From: Ian
ID: 579802
Subject: re: LED Driver

Yeah. Thanks transition

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Date: 29/08/2014 18:37:50
From: Ian
ID: 585285
Subject: re: LED Driver

UPDATE

After returning the second driver and lamp to the shop they suggested I try the first one again and wired them up on the bench to show that it worked, and suggested that it was a problem with the socket.

Well, I pulled the fitting right down.. ripped the cover plated off the socket, cleaned up the contacts.. prodded and poked.. wired it all up again (long story short) and it now works perfectly.

Thanks for your help anyway.

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Date: 29/08/2014 18:38:22
From: Ian
ID: 585286
Subject: re: LED Driver

So gentlemen, worry yourselves no further..

Take it easy..

Relax your sphincters..

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Date: 29/08/2014 18:53:00
From: transition
ID: 585288
Subject: re: LED Driver

all good then

big thumbs up

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