Why do the Christian Churches strongly oppose suicide when it could be argued that Jesus Christ effectively committed suicide? He and his Dad knew he was going to be crucified and they both did nothing to prevent it.

• Why do the Christian Churches strongly oppose suicide when it could be argued that Jesus Christ effectively committed suicide? He and his Dad knew he was going to be crucified and they both did nothing to prevent it.

Because getting someone else to kill you for your cause makes you a martyr…

bob(from black rock) said:

Why do the Christian Churches strongly oppose suicide when it could be argued that Jesus Christ effectively committed suicide? He and his Dad knew he was going to be crucified and they both did nothing to prevent it.

Bloody hypocrites.

bob(from black rock) said:

Why do the Christian Churches strongly oppose suicide when it could be argued that Jesus Christ effectively committed suicide? He and his Dad knew he was going to be crucified and they both did nothing to prevent it.

I think that you would have trouble arguing that Jesus committed suicide…

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, people who give their lives to save other sacrifice more than that. Its irrelevant anyway as he’s most likely not real.

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, people who give their lives to save other sacrifice more than that. Its irrelevant anyway as he’s most likely not real.

in fairness, Jesus didn’t know he was going to die (until the very end), or that he was going to resurrected…

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, ……

Hmm. Not sure I fancy being nailed to a wooden cross even if there’s a resuss team standing by :)

diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, people who give their lives to save other sacrifice more than that. Its irrelevant anyway as he’s most likely not real.

in fairness, Jesus didn’t know he was going to die (until the very end), or that he was going to resurrected…

I thought he knew about this months in advance of the event.

bob(from black rock) said:

diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, people who give their lives to save other sacrifice more than that. Its irrelevant anyway as he’s most likely not real.

in fairness, Jesus didn’t know he was going to die (until the very end), or that he was going to resurrected…

I thought he knew about this months in advance of the event.

Inevitable in more ways than one.

diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, people who give their lives to save other sacrifice more than that. Its irrelevant anyway as he’s most likely not real.

in fairness, Jesus didn’t know he was going to die (until the very end), or that he was going to resurrected…

You’d reckon someone that can turn water into wine etc would have a little foresight.

pommiejohn said:

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, ……

Hmm. Not sure I fancy being nailed to a wooden cross even if there’s a resuss team standing by :)

The Romans knew how to treat a good christian.

pommiejohn said:

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, ……

Hmm. Not sure I fancy being nailed to a wooden cross even if there’s a resuss team standing by :)

Not even if you get resurrected with superpowers?

Cymek said:

pommiejohn said:

Cymek said:

Jesus dying for our sins is always made out to be a great sacrifice but its not so great when you know you’ll be resurrected, ……

Hmm. Not sure I fancy being nailed to a wooden cross even if there’s a resuss team standing by :)

Not even if you get resurrected with superpowers?

Blunt 6” nails, Roman soldier with a big hammer? Nah , you’re not selling it to me.

amongst it, the dieing for man’s sins
there something of innately evil thing
remedy be it the salvation God bring

but the teaching have all the troubles
of that history shows when it couples
language’n culture tend reality bubble

doubtful it were ever meant to be so
religion, more we are metaphysician
God stories never meant sink so low

into field of groupthink psychosocial
but that where it went sorta industrial
hijacking the faculties of suggestible

If someone can get resurrected by superpowers then why not prevent someone’s death from happening by using superpowers?

Sounds like it was story telling made up by people just like Harry Potter

I can use my imagination to make up a story as well

A long long time ago 300,000 years these two aliens were passing through our galaxy was noticed a life bearing planet.

They looked at each other and said “Lets play a trick on them”, and they piloted their ship into earths atmosphere, and flew over a tribe of humans living in a forest.

They hovered their spaceship over them and turned on the spaceship’s lights and played ABBA’s SOS
and made the lights turn on and off to the music,

This made the humans think the alien spaceship were Gods, and they prayed and built monuments to them, the aliens flew away in their spaceship and laughed all the way out of the galaxy.

Jesus was a rabbi type person who led followers

Like che Guevara he was said to “live” even after death

Jesus had an epiphany on the cross , he says something like – oh father why have you foresaken me?? Perhaps he thought he’d be spared??

Plenty of people have died worse deaths.

Once we move on from the various splinter groups of the evil Jehovah – a malicious middle eastern entity that demands human sacrifices on the non believers.

wookiemeister said:

Jesus was a rabbi type person who led followers

Like che Guevara he was said to “live” even after death

Jesus had an epiphany on the cross , he says something like – oh father why have you foresaken me?? Perhaps he thought he’d be spared??

Plenty of people have died worse deaths.

Once we move on from the various splinter groups of the evil Jehovah – a malicious middle eastern entity that demands human sacrifices on the non believers.

Things will get better

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

Jesus was a rabbi type person who led followers

Like che Guevara he was said to “live” even after death

Jesus had an epiphany on the cross , he says something like – oh father why have you foresaken me?? Perhaps he thought he’d be spared??

Plenty of people have died worse deaths.

Once we move on from the various splinter groups of the evil Jehovah – a malicious middle eastern entity that demands human sacrifices on the non believers.

Things will get better

anepiphany?

Was that when he said

“hey, I can see my house from here…”

with the introduction of the romans into the area the existing priesthood and its power base was knocked for 6, no longer Jehovah or the priesthood to top dog in Palestine.

the romans decided the fate of the world not a backward religion of the hills region. the romans just stream rollered anything in their way including Jehovah.

such was the brainwashing that Jehovah was almighty that many people lost their lives in Jerusalem instead of just throwing the towel in and just opening the gates of the city.

in such times “Judaism” (its more accurately described as abrahamism) was able to turn on itself a little, anyone with some knowledge could claim some mystical connection with Jehovah without being killed. as the priesthood became stronger I would say “prophets” would have been killed or threatened so they just disappeared from history.

Judaism’s last prophet was killed by Judaism’s management team. in management theory only management is correct, anyone with an alternative view is either sacked or killed – its an effective slash and burn policy that makes for a dysfunctional state of affairs.

jesus never claimed when in court that he was the son of a god, whatever else he was saying eroded the powerbase of the priesthood who would gladly see the whole population under their control sunk under the waves than relinquish control.

as for suicide jesus makes no mention of it

Quippe res dei ratio quia deus omnium conditor nihil non ratione providit disposuit ordinavit, nihil non ratione tractari intellegique voluit.

I thought Christianity considered all life sacred (hah) and a gift from god and killing yourself is a huge fuck you to god

On suicide, I can give more from Tertullian. In English this time.

“He who lives only to benefit himself confers on the world a benefit when he dies.

or De calcaria in carbonarium.

* Out of the frying pan into the fire..

Cymek said:

I thought Christianity considered all life sacred (hah) and a gift from god and killing yourself is a huge fuck you to god

The same god who, supposedly, gave us free will.

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

I thought Christianity considered all life sacred (hah) and a gift from god and killing yourself is a huge fuck you to god

The same god who, supposedly, gave us free will.

and the knowledge of that we are but from dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

I thought Christianity considered all life sacred (hah) and a gift from god and killing yourself is a huge fuck you to god

The same god who, supposedly, gave us free will.

and the knowledge of that we are but from dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

So why then is it a sin to want to return to those dust & ashes?

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

The same god who, supposedly, gave us free will.

and the knowledge of that we are but from dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

So why then is it a sin to want to return to those dust & ashes?

Because you leave others to contemplate them. It is simply a viewpoint to stand on to blame the selfishness upon those unable any longer to disclaim blame.

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

The same god who, supposedly, gave us free will.

and the knowledge of that we are but from dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

So why then is it a sin to want to return to those dust & ashes?

Isn’t this life a test and if kill yourself you fail the test

Something I find weird is the Christian idea of destiny and gods plan. Its especially annoying in US tv shows and movies. Something I watched the other day the man in said it was gods plan he was on a naval vessel and avoid a plague that was wiping out humanity, no mention of why god would create/allow such a plague just god was great for sparing him, go figure

Cymek said:

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

and the knowledge of that we are but from dust to dust and ashes to ashes.

So why then is it a sin to want to return to those dust & ashes?

Isn’t this life a test and if kill yourself you fail the test

And if you die as an infant have you passed or failed?

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

Tamb said:

So why then is it a sin to want to return to those dust & ashes?

Isn’t this life a test and if kill yourself you fail the test

And if you die as an infant have you passed or failed?

Didn’t make the testing grade.

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

Isn’t this life a test and if kill yourself you fail the test

And if you die as an infant have you passed or failed?

Didn’t make the testing grade.

That’s fine if you’re a Buddhist. It’s round the wheel we go again.

roughbarked said:

Quippe res dei ratio quia deus omnium conditor nihil non ratione providit disposuit ordinavit, nihil non ratione tractari intellegique voluit.

ratio was probably the most commonly used noun in Tertullian’s works.

For reason is a property of God’s, since there is nothing which God, the creator of all things, has not foreseen, arranged and determined by reason; moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason.

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

And if you die as an infant have you passed or failed?

Didn’t make the testing grade.

That’s fine if you’re a Buddhist. It’s round the wheel we go again.

If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again.

• And if you die as an infant have you passed or failed?

I don’t know for sure but don’t babies go to purgatory? As they haven’t proven one way or the other which way they will go?

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Didn’t make the testing grade.

That’s fine if you’re a Buddhist. It’s round the wheel we go again.

If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again.

This seems to suggest that optimists are nascent Buddhists.

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

That’s fine if you’re a Buddhist. It’s round the wheel we go again.

If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again.

This seems to suggest that optimists are nascent Buddhists.

all under the same sun.

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again.

This seems to suggest that optimists are nascent Buddhists.

all under the same sun.

If all under the same sun then there can be no god’s created beings anywhere except our solar system.

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

This seems to suggest that optimists are nascent Buddhists.

all under the same sun.

If all under the same sun then there can be no god’s created beings anywhere except our solar system.

Probably true but we will never know until we ask them.

The sun is still shining, look at the view
The moon is still dining, with me and you
Now that we’re out here, open your heart
To the universe, of which we’re a part

But if you want to play
Stay right back on earth
Waiting for rebirth

AFAIC Hell, purgatory and heaven pass as states of mind. Hell is being trapped in a mental disorder, purgatory is retaining delusional, self obsessed thinking and heaven is the lucidity that allows debate without taking sides.

furious said:

• And if you die as an infant have you passed or failed?

I don’t know for sure but don’t babies go to purgatory? As they haven’t proven one way or the other which way they will go?

isn’t that why the Catholics baptise their babies so soon? in case they die they have a ticket to heaven

It also very amusing that an omnipent being requires all these petty rules

Cymek said:

It also very amusing that an omnipent being requires all these petty rules

It seems fairly obvious that the rules were developed by those involved.

• It also very amusing that an omnipent being requires all these petty rules

You try an eternity without having anything to do and you’ll come up with some petty rules too, just so you can punish some rule breakers to add some interest to your existence…

“Paddlin’ the school canoe? Oh, you better believe that’s a paddlin’.”

furious said:

• It also very amusing that an omnipent being requires all these petty rules

You try an eternity without having anything to do and you’ll come up with some petty rules too, just so you can punish some rule breakers to add some interest to your existence…

“Paddlin’ the school canoe? Oh, you better believe that’s a paddlin’.”

Lets say god is real but an afterlife isn’t and it cooericed humans into creating all these rules just to amuse itself and watches us kill each other by the millions over whose god has the bigger wang.

• Lets say god is real but an afterlife isn’t and it cooericed humans into creating all these rules just to amuse itself and watches us kill each other by the millions over whose god has the bigger wang.

And there you have the genesis of real time strategy games…

furious said:

• Lets say god is real but an afterlife isn’t and it cooericed humans into creating all these rules just to amuse itself and watches us kill each other by the millions over whose god has the bigger wang.

And there you have the genesis of real time strategy games…

The Missionaria Protectiva was an arm of the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood that was responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions).

This “religious engineering” spread “infectious superstitions on primitive worlds, thus opening those regions to exploitation by the Bene Gesserit.” Panoplia Prophetica provide the opportunity for a Bene Gesserit to later cast herself as a guide, protector, or some other figure in fulfillment of a prophecy in order to manipulate the religious subjects for protection or other purposes. These myths also exploit religion as a powerful force in human society; by controlling the particulars of religion, the Bene Gesserit have a manipulative lever on society in general. The Bene Gesserit also employ the Missionaria Protectiva to prepare the Empire for its Kwisatz Haderach.

Cymek said:

furious said:

• Lets say god is real but an afterlife isn’t and it cooericed humans into creating all these rules just to amuse itself and watches us kill each other by the millions over whose god has the bigger wang.

And there you have the genesis of real time strategy games…

The Missionaria Protectiva was an arm of the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood that was responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions).

This “religious engineering” spread “infectious superstitions on primitive worlds, thus opening those regions to exploitation by the Bene Gesserit.” Panoplia Prophetica provide the opportunity for a Bene Gesserit to later cast herself as a guide, protector, or some other figure in fulfillment of a prophecy in order to manipulate the religious subjects for protection or other purposes. These myths also exploit religion as a powerful force in human society; by controlling the particulars of religion, the Bene Gesserit have a manipulative lever on society in general. The Bene Gesserit also employ the Missionaria Protectiva to prepare the Empire for its Kwisatz Haderach.

Frank Herbert had access to some good acid.

Cymek said:

furious said:

The Bene Gesserit also employ the Missionaria Protectiva to prepare the Empire for its Kwisatz Haderach.

Kwisatz Whataderach?

yes I know

I’m being funny

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

furious said:

• Lets say god is real but an afterlife isn’t and it cooericed humans into creating all these rules just to amuse itself and watches us kill each other by the millions over whose god has the bigger wang.

And there you have the genesis of real time strategy games…

The Missionaria Protectiva was an arm of the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood that was responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions).

This “religious engineering” spread “infectious superstitions on primitive worlds, thus opening those regions to exploitation by the Bene Gesserit.” Panoplia Prophetica provide the opportunity for a Bene Gesserit to later cast herself as a guide, protector, or some other figure in fulfillment of a prophecy in order to manipulate the religious subjects for protection or other purposes. These myths also exploit religion as a powerful force in human society; by controlling the particulars of religion, the Bene Gesserit have a manipulative lever on society in general. The Bene Gesserit also employ the Missionaria Protectiva to prepare the Empire for its Kwisatz Haderach.

Frank Herbert had access to some good acid.

I’ve read dune more than a few times

my feelings about dune is that he had this idea from a dream, its too far removed to be a purely conscious stream of thought

>…oppose suicide

“Suicide”, the conception, the ‘word-concept’, has a long history of being subject societal norms, extending to legal ‘construction’, hence ‘commit suicide’.

Outside this, and anyone can have their own concept, even make up their own word/s for it, it is whatever it is, in fact you can define it any way you like, you can even decide to not define it, to avoid conceptualizing it, or both. Some of whatever you may put some framework on, other aspects not.

So, it’s a word, and things in the real world for the most part are not entirely determined by words and/or culturally originated concepts, in fact much of mental activity may not be, or can be otherwise, though this may require quite a lot of effort, or isolation (or variations of ‘the private’), or some nuanced combination.

I think religion sometimes can bias (ones internal of itself, and of others, and others of others) model of how minds work, with, and toward it being linguistically and culturally constructed or determined, often it (religion, and ideology more broadly) operates to some extent from this basis.

transition said:

>…oppose suicide

“Suicide”, the conception, the ‘word-concept’, has a long history of being subject societal norms, extending to legal ‘construction’, hence ‘commit suicide’.

Outside this, and anyone can have their own concept, even make up their own word/s for it, it is whatever it is, in fact you can define it any way you like, you can even decide to not define it, to avoid conceptualizing it, or both. Some of whatever you may put some framework on, other aspects not.

So, it’s a word, and things in the real world for the most part are not entirely determined by words and/or culturally originated concepts, in fact much of mental activity may not be, or can be otherwise, though this may require quite a lot of effort, or isolation (or variations of ‘the private’), or some nuanced combination.

I think religion sometimes can bias (ones internal of itself, and of others, and others of others) model of how minds work, with, and toward it being linguistically and culturally constructed or determined, often it (religion, and ideology more broadly) operates to some extent from this basis.

The difference between reality and religion are huge

reality is an interactive electrochemical environment, which most living things are, even the planet is, lightning, weather and elements, in real space time

religions take people into some kind of imaginary space time where bodies exist in some unexplained form, in an unexplained space time

CrazyNeutrino said:

transition said:

>…oppose suicide

“Suicide”, the conception, the ‘word-concept’, has a long history of being subject societal norms, extending to legal ‘construction’, hence ‘commit suicide’.

Outside this, and anyone can have their own concept, even make up their own word/s for it, it is whatever it is, in fact you can define it any way you like, you can even decide to not define it, to avoid conceptualizing it, or both. Some of whatever you may put some framework on, other aspects not.

So, it’s a word, and things in the real world for the most part are not entirely determined by words and/or culturally originated concepts, in fact much of mental activity may not be, or can be otherwise, though this may require quite a lot of effort, or isolation (or variations of ‘the private’), or some nuanced combination.

I think religion sometimes can bias (ones internal of itself, and of others, and others of others) model of how minds work, with, and toward it being linguistically and culturally constructed or determined, often it (religion, and ideology more broadly) operates to some extent from this basis.

The difference between reality and religion are huge

reality is an interactive electrochemical environment, which most living things are, even the planet is, lightning, weather and elements, in real space time

religions take people into some kind of imaginary space time where bodies exist in some unexplained form, in an unexplained space time

Gods exist in imaginary form as well, humans cannot prove or disprove any god, so they exist in imaginary spaces

the fear of death, and fear of the weather created religion in the first place, fear of losing control

so a fear of the unknown future, created an imaginary space time where its future is also unknown

bob(from black rock) said:

Why do the Christian Churches strongly oppose suicide when it could be argued that Jesus Christ effectively committed suicide? He and his Dad knew he was going to be crucified and they both did nothing to prevent it.

God creates life and only God should have the right to take it away, would be my guess.