Date: 6/09/2014 18:09:04
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589584
Subject: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

New research finds that religious countries and US states produce fewer patents per capita.

Are science and religion doomed to eternal “warfare,” or can they just get along? Philosophers, theologians, scientists, and atheists debate this subject endlessly (and often, angrily). We hear a lot less from economists on the matter, however. But in a recent paper, Princeton economist Roland Bénabou and two colleagues unveiled a surprising finding that would at least appear to bolster the “conflict” camp: Both across countries and also across US states, higher levels of religiosity are related to lower levels of scientific innovation.

“Places with higher levels of religiosity have lower rates of scientific and technical innovation, as measured by patents per capita,” comments Bénabou. He adds that the pattern persists “when controlling for differences in income per capita, population, and rates of higher education.”

That’s the most salient finding from the paper by Bénabou and his colleagues, which uses an economic model to explore how scientific innovation, religiosity, and the power of the state interact to form different “regimes.” The three kinds of regimes that they identify: a secular, European-style regime in which religion has very little policy influence and science garners great support; a repressive, theocratic regime in which the state and religion merge to suppress science; and a more intermediate, American-style regime in which religion and science both thrive, with the state supporting science and religions (mostly) trying to accommodate themselves to its findings.

It is in the process of this inquiry on the relationship between science, religion, and the state that the researchers dive into an analysis of patents, both in the United States and across the globe. And the results are pretty striking.

First, the researchers looked at the raw data on patents per capita (taken from the World Intellectual Property Organization’s data) and religiosity (based on the following question from the World Values Survey: “Independently of whether you go to church or not, would you say you are: a religious person, not a religious person, a convinced atheist, don’t know”). And they found a “strong negative relationship” between the two. In other words, for countries around the world, more religion was tied to fewer patents per individual residing in the country.

Those data aren’t shown here, however, because in many ways, that would be too simplistic of an analysis. It is clear that many other factors than just religion (wealth, education, and so on) influence a country’s number of patents per capita. What’s striking, however, is that after the authors controlled for no less than five other standard variables related to innovation (population, levels of economic development, levels of foreign investment, educational levels, and intellectual property protections) the relationship still persisted. Here’s a scatterplot showing what the data look like after applying these controls: (above)

Full Report: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/religion-quashes-innovation-patents

Reply Quote

Date: 6/09/2014 18:44:02
From: morrie
ID: 589627
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Bubblecar said:


New research finds that religious countries and US states produce fewer patents per capita.

Are science and religion doomed to eternal “warfare,” or can they just get along? Philosophers, theologians, scientists, and atheists debate this subject endlessly (and often, angrily). We hear a lot less from economists on the matter, however. But in a recent paper, Princeton economist Roland Bénabou and two colleagues unveiled a surprising finding that would at least appear to bolster the “conflict” camp: Both across countries and also across US states, higher levels of religiosity are related to lower levels of scientific innovation.

“Places with higher levels of religiosity have lower rates of scientific and technical innovation, as measured by patents per capita,” comments Bénabou. He adds that the pattern persists “when controlling for differences in income per capita, population, and rates of higher education.”

That’s the most salient finding from the paper by Bénabou and his colleagues, which uses an economic model to explore how scientific innovation, religiosity, and the power of the state interact to form different “regimes.” The three kinds of regimes that they identify: a secular, European-style regime in which religion has very little policy influence and science garners great support; a repressive, theocratic regime in which the state and religion merge to suppress science; and a more intermediate, American-style regime in which religion and science both thrive, with the state supporting science and religions (mostly) trying to accommodate themselves to its findings.

It is in the process of this inquiry on the relationship between science, religion, and the state that the researchers dive into an analysis of patents, both in the United States and across the globe. And the results are pretty striking.

First, the researchers looked at the raw data on patents per capita (taken from the World Intellectual Property Organization’s data) and religiosity (based on the following question from the World Values Survey: “Independently of whether you go to church or not, would you say you are: a religious person, not a religious person, a convinced atheist, don’t know”). And they found a “strong negative relationship” between the two. In other words, for countries around the world, more religion was tied to fewer patents per individual residing in the country.

Those data aren’t shown here, however, because in many ways, that would be too simplistic of an analysis. It is clear that many other factors than just religion (wealth, education, and so on) influence a country’s number of patents per capita. What’s striking, however, is that after the authors controlled for no less than five other standard variables related to innovation (population, levels of economic development, levels of foreign investment, educational levels, and intellectual property protections) the relationship still persisted. Here’s a scatterplot showing what the data look like after applying these controls: (above)

Full Report: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/religion-quashes-innovation-patents


I dunno, but those regressions don’t look too convincing to me. The R^2 for the state by state comparison for example is 0.222, which seems rather low to me. And that is even if you accept the number of patents as a good measure of innovation.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:44:08
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 589722
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Confirmation bias.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:45:26
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589725
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

The Rev Dodgson said:


Confirmation bias.

Something like that

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:49:11
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 589729
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

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Date: 7/09/2014 16:51:46
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589732
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

The Rev Dodgson said:


Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia very religious

its difficult to walk around nude

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:52:11
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 589733
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

The Rev Dodgson said:


Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

are you suggesting there is a false profit in Saudi?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:53:33
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 589734
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia very religious

its difficult to walk around nude

whether or not there were people present you would regret getting round that part of the world naked in fairly short time.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:53:40
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589735
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

The Rev Dodgson said:


Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

It does, yes.

And you can’t really “correct for” variables like standards of education, since you’d expect a correlation between religiosity and cultures lacking in modern education.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:57:19
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589736
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Postpocelipse said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia very religious

its difficult to walk around nude

whether or not there were people present you would regret getting round that part of the world naked in fairly short time.

I was wondering if was innovative?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:58:36
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589737
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Maybe all those foreign engineers working in the Saudi oilfields like to patent a lot of their custom equipment.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 16:59:32
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 589739
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Is this study done on the entire history of innovation or just modern innovation/invention?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:00:54
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589740
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

So, lots of innovation happens in china and japan

Iran and Egypt frown on innovation

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:01:42
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589741
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Postpocelipse said:


Is this study done on the entire history of innovation or just modern innovation/invention?

Data is from 1990 and 2000.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:02:03
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 589742
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia very religious

its difficult to walk around nude

Yes they are. They have religious police, citizens are required to be Muslims, and temporary workers from other countries are required to have a professed religion (presumably non-Jewish, although I don’t know if they say that).

The USA on the other hand has separation of church and state enshrined in the constitution, and there are many professed atheists in influential positions and government employ.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:02:06
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589743
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Postpocelipse said:


Is this study done on the entire history of innovation or just modern innovation/invention?

religion interfering with innovation

think stem cells etc

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:03:38
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 589744
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


Postpocelipse said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Isn’t Saudi Arabia very religious

its difficult to walk around nude

whether or not there were people present you would regret getting round that part of the world naked in fairly short time.

I was wondering if was innovative?

Only if you call spending big money for people from other countries to build stuff for you “innovation”.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:03:52
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589746
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

The Rev Dodgson said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Also I don’t know how they measured religiosity or innovation, but to suggest that Saudi Arabia is less religious and more innovative than the USA seems like absolute bullshit.

Isn’t Saudi Arabia very religious

its difficult to walk around nude

Yes they are. They have religious police, citizens are required to be Muslims, and temporary workers from other countries are required to have a professed religion (presumably non-Jewish, although I don’t know if they say that).

The USA on the other hand has separation of church and state enshrined in the constitution, and there are many professed atheists in influential positions and government employ.

In the USA women are walking around in G strings

try doing that in Iran and Saudi Arabia

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:09:53
From: buffy
ID: 589748
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

I’m not entirely sure that is a desirable thing, is it CN?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:14:02
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 589749
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

buffy said:

I’m not entirely sure that is a desirable thing, is it CN?

only if it is a unisex practice………

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:14:06
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589750
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

buffy said:

I’m not entirely sure that is a desirable thing, is it CN?

Depends, Im not fussed

but it gets into this argument about what women “can wear” and “they asked for it” but women should be allowed to wear what they like, but other men might think differently

g strings are ok on beach aren’t they

what do you think?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:17:17
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589751
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Might be an idea to take the g-strings into Chat.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:18:38
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589752
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


buffy said:

I’m not entirely sure that is a desirable thing, is it CN?

Depends, Im not fussed

but it gets into this argument about what women “can wear” and “they asked for it” but women should be allowed to wear what they like, but other men might think differently

g strings are ok on beach aren’t they

what do you think?

I mean, if women can wear bikinis and g strings on the beach

then why not else where

but not in Iran or Saudi Arabia

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:21:45
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589753
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Bubblecar said:


Might be an idea to take the g-strings into Chat.

But it is a women’s rights/religion thing isn’t it?

tic

but yes science and religion do seem to be in conflict

I put thus down to human rights science and religion conflict

eliminate humans rights conflicts with religion and what are you left with?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:26:49
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589756
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Eliminate human rights conflicts with religion and what are you left with?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:31:56
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589760
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


Eliminate human rights conflicts with religion and what are you left with?

ok which religions are the most human rights tolerant?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:33:29
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 589762
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

Eliminate human rights conflicts with religion and what are you left with?

ok which religions are the most human rights tolerant?

buddhism

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:35:06
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589766
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Postpocelipse said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Eliminate human rights conflicts with religion and what are you left with?

ok which religions are the most human rights tolerant?

buddhism

Which falls into the China, Japan topology?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:35:58
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 589767
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Postpocelipse said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Eliminate human rights conflicts with religion and what are you left with?

ok which religions are the most human rights tolerant?

buddhism

Agnostics?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:39:28
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589768
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

CrazyNeutrino said:


Postpocelipse said:

buddhism

Which falls into the China, Japan topology?

Most Chinese are not religious:

A survey taken by Shanghai University in 2007 found that 31.4% of people above the age of 16 considered themselves religious. The survey also found that the major religions are Buddhism, Taoism, Islam and Christianity, accounting for 67.4% of believers. About 66.1% of all believers are Buddhists, Taoists or worshippers of legendary figures such as the Dragon King and God of Fortune, while Christianity accounted for 12% of believers.

According to a study by the Pew Research Center of Global Religious Landscape as of 2010, 21.9% of the population in China are folk religionists, 18.2% are Buddhist, 5.1% are Christians, 1.8% are Muslims, 0.8% are of other religions, while unaffiliated constitutes 52.2% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Statistics

Most Japanese are not religious:

A 2008 poll carried out by the NHK Broadcasting Culture Research Institute and ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) surveyed 1200 Japanese people on their beliefs, and 39% of the surveyed people reported having a religious belief: 34% declared to follow Buddhism, 3% Shinto, 1% Christianity (0.7% Protestantism, 0.2% Catholicism) and 1% other religions. Actually, most Japanese people (around 90%) attend Shinto shrines and beseech kami, while not identify as “Shinto” or “Shintoist” since these terms have no meaning at all for the majority of the Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:42:58
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589769
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Bubblecar said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

Postpocelipse said:

buddhism

Which falls into the China, Japan topology?

Most Chinese are not religious:

A survey taken by Shanghai University in 2007 found that 31.4% of people above the age of 16 considered themselves religious. The survey also found that the major religions are Buddhism, Taoism, Islam and Christianity, accounting for 67.4% of believers. About 66.1% of all believers are Buddhists, Taoists or worshippers of legendary figures such as the Dragon King and God of Fortune, while Christianity accounted for 12% of believers.

According to a study by the Pew Research Center of Global Religious Landscape as of 2010, 21.9% of the population in China are folk religionists, 18.2% are Buddhist, 5.1% are Christians, 1.8% are Muslims, 0.8% are of other religions, while unaffiliated constitutes 52.2% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Statistics

Most Japanese are not religious:

A 2008 poll carried out by the NHK Broadcasting Culture Research Institute and ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) surveyed 1200 Japanese people on their beliefs, and 39% of the surveyed people reported having a religious belief: 34% declared to follow Buddhism, 3% Shinto, 1% Christianity (0.7% Protestantism, 0.2% Catholicism) and 1% other religions. Actually, most Japanese people (around 90%) attend Shinto shrines and beseech kami, while not identify as “Shinto” or “Shintoist” since these terms have no meaning at all for the majority of the Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

So being non religious seems to be a progenitor of scientific innovation?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:44:31
From: buffy
ID: 589770
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Postpocelipse said:


buffy said:

I’m not entirely sure that is a desirable thing, is it CN?

only if it is a unisex practice………

I am actually more appalled by the people who think they look good in them. Some things I just don’t need to see.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:45:54
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 589772
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

oops

So being non religious seems to be a progenitor of scientific innovation?

I mean that in intellectual movement sense

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 17:47:41
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 589775
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

buffy said:


Postpocelipse said:

buffy said:

I’m not entirely sure that is a desirable thing, is it CN?

only if it is a unisex practice………

I am actually more appalled by the people who think they look good in them. Some things I just don’t need to see.

i don’t disagree

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 19:15:13
From: morrie
ID: 589826
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Bubblecar said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

Postpocelipse said:

buddhism

Which falls into the China, Japan topology?

Most Chinese are not religious:

A survey taken by Shanghai University in 2007 found that 31.4% of people above the age of 16 considered themselves religious. The survey also found that the major religions are Buddhism, Taoism, Islam and Christianity, accounting for 67.4% of believers. About 66.1% of all believers are Buddhists, Taoists or worshippers of legendary figures such as the Dragon King and God of Fortune, while Christianity accounted for 12% of believers.

According to a study by the Pew Research Center of Global Religious Landscape as of 2010, 21.9% of the population in China are folk religionists, 18.2% are Buddhist, 5.1% are Christians, 1.8% are Muslims, 0.8% are of other religions, while unaffiliated constitutes 52.2% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Statistics

Most Japanese are not religious:

A 2008 poll carried out by the NHK Broadcasting Culture Research Institute and ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) surveyed 1200 Japanese people on their beliefs, and 39% of the surveyed people reported having a religious belief: 34% declared to follow Buddhism, 3% Shinto, 1% Christianity (0.7% Protestantism, 0.2% Catholicism) and 1% other religions. Actually, most Japanese people (around 90%) attend Shinto shrines and beseech kami, while not identify as “Shinto” or “Shintoist” since these terms have no meaning at all for the majority of the Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan


From the reports of a friend who has taught in China, as well as from direct observation, I would have put ‘copying’ as one of their major skills, with innovation not encouraged right back at a fundamental level.
This applies even more so to the South Koreans, who have in my observation taken copying of other peoples technical innovations to an elevated art form.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 19:18:29
From: morrie
ID: 589827
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

Mind, you, the Indians are pretty bloody good at copying too. On one forum of which I am a member, one Indian contributor proudly declared himself to be a ‘Reverse Engineer’ and asked for hints about how to best achieve good copies of other people’s work. He came in for just a little bit of flak.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 19:35:19
From: sibeen
ID: 589834
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

morrie said:


He came in for just a little bit of flak.

Why?

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 7/09/2014 20:11:25
From: Bubblecar
ID: 589873
Subject: re: Study: Science and Religion Really Are Enemies After All

morrie said:


From the reports of a friend who has taught in China, as well as from direct observation, I would have put ‘copying’ as one of their major skills, with innovation not encouraged right back at a fundamental level.
This applies even more so to the South Koreans, who have in my observation taken copying of other peoples technical innovations to an elevated art form.

Maybe but the same was said of the Japanese when they first established a modern manufacturing economy. The Chinese are innovating in some areas (e.g., they invented the e-cigarette :)).

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