Is a cynically biased and unconstitutional ballot. Excluding Scots currently resident in England, and lowering the age of voting to 16 is manipulative and clearly biased to produce a ‘yes’ vote. Most 16 year-olds’ knowledge of Scottish-English history wouldn’t extend much beyond Braveheart.

pesce.del.giorno said:

Is a cynically biased and unconstitutional ballot. Excluding Scots currently resident in England, and lowering the age of voting to 16 is manipulative and clearly biased to produce a ‘yes’ vote. Most 16 year-olds’ knowledge of Scottish-English history wouldn’t extend much beyond Braveheart.

A biased ballot will produce an expected outcome I would think.

When are the Scots voting on separation?

I think it’s this coming Thursday, UK time.

I care so little, it’s breathtaking.

It’s fairly easy for the promulgators to get the result they want by skewing the question/s.
The Oz republic referendum was a case in point. It said do you want to keep the Queen or do you want a republic with a government appointed President.
The queen side won because many pro republicans wanted an elected President not a government puppet.

Another case was the later hotel closing times.
There were 3 choices. 1 Remain at 6pm. 2 close at 9pm. 3 close at 10pm.
A majority voted for later closing but the vote was split between 9 & 10 so 6 got the greater number of votes.

I think the scots should vote “yes” purely as an experiment. all power to them but given Scottish history it will most likely devolve to the clans

the other thing is this, what if some areas of Scotland want british rule ? will the scots in the areas where they voted yes allow their fellow scots to break away or will they decided that that is not going to happen and decide that that vote isn’t going to happen?

it might devolve into a Ukraine situation as taxes don’t get paid to the Scottish parliament and instead are funnelled back to Britain?

we’ll see

wookiemeister said:

I think the scots should vote “yes” purely as an experiment. all power to them but given Scottish history it will most likely devolve to the clans

the other thing is this, what if some areas of Scotland want british rule ? will the scots in the areas where they voted yes allow their fellow scots to break away or will they decided that that is not going to happen and decide that that vote isn’t going to happen?

it might devolve into a Ukraine situation as taxes don’t get paid to the Scottish parliament and instead are funnelled back to Britain?

we’ll see

the other thing is this, what if some areas of Scotland want british rule ?

maybe an East Scotland West Scotland?

CrazyNeutrino said:

wookiemeister said:

I think the scots should vote “yes” purely as an experiment. all power to them but given Scottish history it will most likely devolve to the clans

the other thing is this, what if some areas of Scotland want british rule ? will the scots in the areas where they voted yes allow their fellow scots to break away or will they decided that that is not going to happen and decide that that vote isn’t going to happen?

it might devolve into a Ukraine situation as taxes don’t get paid to the Scottish parliament and instead are funnelled back to Britain?

we’ll see

the other thing is this, what if some areas of Scotland want british rule ?

maybe an East Scotland West Scotland?

north and south with a UN admin road linking the north to Britain. it might be that only the major cities in Scotland want independence

strictly speaking this is what marx talks about, the monarchy is swept away by the middle class wanting to rule in their own right without interference .

the farmers probably hate the idea of Scotland ruled by the two major cities – I bet the taxes go up in this Scottish utopia they are creating

pesce.del.giorno said:

Is a cynically biased and unconstitutional ballot. Excluding Scots currently resident in England, and lowering the age of voting to 16 is manipulative and clearly biased to produce a ‘yes’ vote. Most 16 year-olds’ knowledge of Scottish-English history wouldn’t extend much beyond Braveheart.

On the other hand, the vote includes Englanders currently resident in Scotland. And lowering the voting age to 16 makes it more democratic. And the effect of a YES success will make the whole region more democratic.

pesce.del.giorno said:

Is a cynically biased and unconstitutional ballot. Excluding Scots currently resident in England, and lowering the age of voting to 16 is manipulative and clearly biased to produce a ‘yes’ vote. Most 16 year-olds’ knowledge of Scottish-English history wouldn’t extend much beyond Braveheart.

I would imagine 16 year olds as actual or recent school students, would probably know more about Scottish history than most adults, especially if they are from Pakistan who are also permitted to vote if a Scottish resident.

PermeateFree said:

pesce.del.giorno said:

Is a cynically biased and unconstitutional ballot. Excluding Scots currently resident in England, and lowering the age of voting to 16 is manipulative and clearly biased to produce a ‘yes’ vote. Most 16 year-olds’ knowledge of Scottish-English history wouldn’t extend much beyond Braveheart.

I would imagine 16 year olds as actual or recent school students, would probably know more about Scottish history than most adults, especially if they are from Pakistan who are also permitted to vote if a Scottish resident.

I wouldn’t like a 16 year old to have any say in the economic future of my country. They would not have the necessary life experience to make an informed judgement. Young people, by nature, tend to be more adventurous and revolutionary, without giving due consideration to the consequences, and therefore more likely to vote for independence.
It will be interesting to see a demographic breakdown of the voting, after the referendum is over.

• It will be interesting to see a demographic breakdown of the voting, after the referendum is over.

As at last Friday:

Scottish referendum too close to call

Where’s that from furious?

• Where’s that from furious?

From the link in the post…

Hmm, relax 16 year olds, it’s actually the 25-44 & 55-64 groups that pesce might be wanting to disenfranchise :)

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, relax 16 year olds, it’s actually the 25-44 & 55-64 groups that pesce might be wanting to disenfranchise :)

Right. Blows my theory out of the water.

pesce.del.giorno said:

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, relax 16 year olds, it’s actually the 25-44 & 55-64 groups that pesce might be wanting to disenfranchise :)

Right. Blows my theory out of the water.

The young’uns today are very much into the Royal Families, much more so that 20 years ago.

Nothing interesting has happened in the royal family since Diana died. Now the young ones are popping out sprogs and everyone (except Bubblecar) is interested again.

>and everyone (except Bubblecar) is interested again.

I’m sure there are vast numbers of people who couldn’t give a flying eff about the royals and their smelly babies.

Divine Angel said:

Nothing interesting has happened in the royal family since Diana died. Now the young ones are popping out sprogs and everyone (except Bubblecar) is interested again.

I dont understand

what are they interested in exactly?

I dont have any interest in the family around the corner, or the family up the road?

Bubblecar said:

>and everyone (except Bubblecar) is interested again.

I’m sure there are vast numbers of people who couldn’t give a flying eff about the royals and their smelly babies.

You can count me in that mob, please.

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

>and everyone (except Bubblecar) is interested again.

I’m sure there are vast numbers of people who couldn’t give a flying eff about the royals and their smelly babies.

You can count me in that mob, please.

I’m an English, Irish, Scottish & German Australian. I wouldn’t know which way to vote.

pesce.del.giorno said:

PermeateFree said:

pesce.del.giorno said:

Is a cynically biased and unconstitutional ballot. Excluding Scots currently resident in England, and lowering the age of voting to 16 is manipulative and clearly biased to produce a ‘yes’ vote. Most 16 year-olds’ knowledge of Scottish-English history wouldn’t extend much beyond Braveheart.

I would imagine 16 year olds as actual or recent school students, would probably know more about Scottish history than most adults, especially if they are from Pakistan who are also permitted to vote if a Scottish resident.

I wouldn’t like a 16 year old to have any say in the economic future of my country. They would not have the necessary life experience to make an informed judgement. Young people, by nature, tend to be more adventurous and revolutionary, without giving due consideration to the consequences, and therefore more likely to vote for independence.
It will be interesting to see a demographic breakdown of the voting, after the referendum is over.

Then you should the above argument instead of that in your first post.

It’s today, isn’t it?

party_pants said:

It’s today, isn’t it?

Yep. But today their time, which is 307 years ago :)

Concorde is probably going to be the largest fastest commercial airliner ever for quite some time.

pommiejohn said:

party_pants said:

It’s today, isn’t it?

Yep. But today their time, which is 307 years ago :)

Good one.

:) :)

breaking news

Independent regional council declared as Scotland goes to the poll amid street fighting and large scale riots.

Leaders of the breakaway separatist Independent Regional Council declare separate regions under British rule, Salmond rules them unconstitutional and asks EU not to recognise them.

Armoured columns from Britain seen passing Hadrian’s Wall as sporadic fighting breaks out between separatists and Scottish government – Edinburgh accuses downing street of supplying separatist councils

Air space over Scotland declared no go area as a commercial jet is fired upon by independent regional council after pro separatist elements receive military assistance and advisors from Moscow to aid Scottish government. Britain threatens blockade to stop weapon deliveries to government forces fighting Scottish forces.

wookiemeister said:

breaking news

Independent regional council declared as Scotland goes to the poll amid street fighting and large scale riots.

Leaders of the breakaway separatist Independent Regional Council declare separate regions under British rule, Salmond rules them unconstitutional and asks EU not to recognise them.

Armoured columns from Britain seen passing Hadrian’s Wall as sporadic fighting breaks out between separatists and Scottish government – Edinburgh accuses downing street of supplying separatist councils

Air space over Scotland declared no go area as a commercial jet is fired upon by independent regional council after pro separatist elements receive military assistance and advisors from Moscow to aid Scottish government. Britain threatens blockade to stop weapon deliveries to government forces fighting Scottish forces.

Lets hope it doesn’t go nuclear laddy, och eye

I et the SNP people years ago down at speakers corner

as far as I could ascertain after talking to them extensively about their beliefs , they will only be taking orders from brussels

Cymek said:

wookiemeister said:

breaking news

Independent regional council declared as Scotland goes to the poll amid street fighting and large scale riots.

Leaders of the breakaway separatist Independent Regional Council declare separate regions under British rule, Salmond rules them unconstitutional and asks EU not to recognise them.

Armoured columns from Britain seen passing Hadrian’s Wall as sporadic fighting breaks out between separatists and Scottish government – Edinburgh accuses downing street of supplying separatist councils

Air space over Scotland declared no go area as a commercial jet is fired upon by independent regional council after pro separatist elements receive military assistance and advisors from Moscow to aid Scottish government. Britain threatens blockade to stop weapon deliveries to government forces fighting Scottish forces.

Lets hope it doesn’t go nuclear laddy, och eye

Britain will have to go and secure the nuclear sub bases in Scotland and do a crimea, you might see an annexation of parts of Scotland

if the EU starts sticking its nose into things Britain will most likely leave and the EU will fall over leaving france (yeah right) and Germany to foot the bill for a land war on the eastern front and prop up the ballooning broken states that are in the EU

wookiemeister said:

I et the SNP people years ago down at speakers corner

as far as I could ascertain after talking to them extensively about their beliefs , they will only be taking orders from brussels

I couldn’t see exactly what freedom Scotland will be getting – they will only be getting new masters with their legitimacy from Brussels

my guess, taxes will go up in new scotland

wookiemeister said:

Cymek said:

wookiemeister said:

breaking news

Independent regional council declared as Scotland goes to the poll amid street fighting and large scale riots.

Leaders of the breakaway separatist Independent Regional Council declare separate regions under British rule, Salmond rules them unconstitutional and asks EU not to recognise them.

Armoured columns from Britain seen passing Hadrian’s Wall as sporadic fighting breaks out between separatists and Scottish government – Edinburgh accuses downing street of supplying separatist councils

Air space over Scotland declared no go area as a commercial jet is fired upon by independent regional council after pro separatist elements receive military assistance and advisors from Moscow to aid Scottish government. Britain threatens blockade to stop weapon deliveries to government forces fighting Scottish forces.

Lets hope it doesn’t go nuclear laddy, och eye

Britain will have to go and secure the nuclear sub bases in Scotland and do a crimea, you might see an annexation of parts of Scotland

if the EU starts sticking its nose into things Britain will most likely leave and the EU will fall over leaving france (yeah right) and Germany to foot the bill for a land war on the eastern front and prop up the ballooning broken states that are in the EU

I can see Scotty hijacking the Enterprise and going back in time to support pro Scottish independent forces

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

I et the SNP people years ago down at speakers corner

as far as I could ascertain after talking to them extensively about their beliefs , they will only be taking orders from brussels

I couldn’t see exactly what freedom Scotland will be getting – they will only be getting new masters with their legitimacy from Brussels

my guess, taxes will go up in new scotland

That’s if the EU let ‘em in.

isn’t there the possibility that the Scotland scenario could start playing out like the Ukraine scenario?

Scotland like Ukraine was once of a larger entity, Ukraine – Russia, Scotland – the united kingdom

what makes me wonder is, what if people in some regions of Scotland don’t like independence and decide to become part of the united kingdom regardless of what say, 1 /2 % of Scottish swing voters might say?

what would happen if Scotland becomes independent then separist movements within Scotland declare a pro Britain council to resist the new scotttish republic, its possible under the existing vote we could be sleep walking into the next European flashpoint over territory?

is the way we are framing and constructing the referendum wise and fair? what if some regions don’t want independence from Britain , how will they be represented? it seems in the present situation there are more questions than answers.

>isn’t there the possibility that the Scotland scenario could start playing out like the Ukraine scenario?

No.

There are huge differences. Western Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union as a consequence of WWII (eastern Ukraine never had any choice either, but had a much larger concentration of ethnic Russians), followed by decades of communist oppression, with the country declaring independence when the communist state collapsed. There was always going to be the problem of ethnic tensions which could escalate into military conflict if irresponsible Russian leadership decided to re-activate Russian imperialism, as has happened under Putin.

Britain has long been a democratic region and Scots who are “pro-UK” aren’t reflecting any kind of long-standing ethnic animosities between peoples of different language and culture – it’s just a political and economic debate in a modern liberal democratic nation. If resolved in favour of Scottish independence, the focus will change to the relevant issues raised by independence. There’ll be no political mileage (or even relevance) in maintaining a NO posture and the politicians unenthusiastic for an independent Scotland will soon find themselves replaced by those who accept the new reality.

You looking at me, Jimmy?

Bubblecar said:

There are huge differences. Western Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union as a consequence of WWII (eastern Ukraine never had any choice either, but had a much larger concentration of ethnic Russians), followed by decades of communist oppression, with the country declaring independence when the communist state collapsed. There was always going to be the problem of ethnic tensions which could escalate into military conflict if irresponsible Russian leadership decided to re-activate Russian imperialism, as has happened under Putin.

Britain has long been a democratic region and Scots who are “pro-UK” aren’t reflecting any kind of long-standing ethnic animosities between peoples of different language and culture – it’s just a political and economic debate in a modern liberal democratic nation. If resolved in favour of Scottish independence, the focus will change to the relevant issues raised by independence. There’ll be no political mileage (or even relevance) in maintaining a NO posture and the politicians unenthusiastic for an independent Scotland will soon find themselves replaced by those who accept the new reality.

ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

then you had years of oppression – the highland clearances etc

what I see here could be shaping up as a Ukraine conflict by numbers

I don’t live in Scotland, I don’t know if there are regions who want to live under british rule, its just a guess

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

There are huge differences. Western Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union as a consequence of WWII (eastern Ukraine never had any choice either, but had a much larger concentration of ethnic Russians), followed by decades of communist oppression, with the country declaring independence when the communist state collapsed. There was always going to be the problem of ethnic tensions which could escalate into military conflict if irresponsible Russian leadership decided to re-activate Russian imperialism, as has happened under Putin.

Britain has long been a democratic region and Scots who are “pro-UK” aren’t reflecting any kind of long-standing ethnic animosities between peoples of different language and culture – it’s just a political and economic debate in a modern liberal democratic nation. If resolved in favour of Scottish independence, the focus will change to the relevant issues raised by independence. There’ll be no political mileage (or even relevance) in maintaining a NO posture and the politicians unenthusiastic for an independent Scotland will soon find themselves replaced by those who accept the new reality.

ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

then you had years of oppression – the highland clearances etc

what I see here could be shaping up as a Ukraine conflict by numbers

I don’t live in Scotland, I don’t know if there are regions who want to live under british rule, its just a guess

The partition of India & Ireland are examples.

Tamb said:

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

There are huge differences. Western Ukraine was forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union as a consequence of WWII (eastern Ukraine never had any choice either, but had a much larger concentration of ethnic Russians), followed by decades of communist oppression, with the country declaring independence when the communist state collapsed. There was always going to be the problem of ethnic tensions which could escalate into military conflict if irresponsible Russian leadership decided to re-activate Russian imperialism, as has happened under Putin.

Britain has long been a democratic region and Scots who are “pro-UK” aren’t reflecting any kind of long-standing ethnic animosities between peoples of different language and culture – it’s just a political and economic debate in a modern liberal democratic nation. If resolved in favour of Scottish independence, the focus will change to the relevant issues raised by independence. There’ll be no political mileage (or even relevance) in maintaining a NO posture and the politicians unenthusiastic for an independent Scotland will soon find themselves replaced by those who accept the new reality.

ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

then you had years of oppression – the highland clearances etc

what I see here could be shaping up as a Ukraine conflict by numbers

I don’t live in Scotland, I don’t know if there are regions who want to live under british rule, its just a guess

The partition of India & Ireland are examples.

well you’ve got india still at war with Pakistan over territory

Ireland had been going since 1160

>ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

All ancient history. It’s not really old-fashioned nationalism fuelling the independence movement, just a desire for greater regional political autonomy as a consequence of Scottish voters (who traditionally are more left-inclined on average than English voters) not having much clout in Westminster. Independence is one solution and we’ll soon see if a majority of Scots decide it’s the best option.

Bubblecar said:

>ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

All ancient history. It’s not really old-fashioned nationalism fuelling the independence movement, just a desire for greater regional political autonomy as a consequence of Scottish voters (who traditionally are more left-inclined on average than English voters) not having much clout in Westminster. Independence is one solution and we’ll soon see if a majority of Scots decide it’s the best option.

you don’t know Scotsmen

I came out of “braveheart” and was chastised by a Scottish bloke when I was a backpacker

I pointed out that I don’t think that William Wallace was defeated by the English but the Scottish themselves – he was betrayed by the Scottish clans on the field of battle , they walked off at a critical point.

the other thing is that Wallace was also betrayed by one of his PAs I think

the scots have their own version of history in their heads as told to them by people up to no good

was Scotland ever this rigid territory on the maps now?

it would have been better breaking up Scotland into regions and asking them to vote for independence – maybe then you’d have a patchwork of states (clans) rather than an artificial entity

wookiemeister said:

ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

then you had years of oppression – the highland clearances etc

what I see here could be shaping up as a Ukraine conflict by numbers

I don’t live in Scotland, I don’t know if there are regions who want to live under british rule, its just a guess

The Scottish parliament sent a delegation to London to negotiate suitable terms, then voted themselves out of existence.

>I came out of “braveheart” and was chastised by a Scottish bloke when I was a backpacker

Most Scots (especially those who support independence) regard “Braveheart” as a joke. Scots tend to practical, peaceful and level-headed.There’s a fringe of kilted-up hotheads but no-one takes them seriously :)

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

then you had years of oppression – the highland clearances etc

what I see here could be shaping up as a Ukraine conflict by numbers

I don’t live in Scotland, I don’t know if there are regions who want to live under british rule, its just a guess

The Scottish parliament sent a delegation to London to negotiate suitable terms, then voted themselves out of existence.

pushed or fell?

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

Bubblecar said:

>I came out of “braveheart” and was chastised by a Scottish bloke when I was a backpacker

Most Scots (especially those who support independence) regard “Braveheart” as a joke. Scots tend to practical, peaceful and level-headed.There’s a fringe of kilted-up hotheads but no-one takes them seriously :)

well we’ll see, no skin off my nose

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

we could have Malcolm turnbull as queen

I worry when I see the elite of the middle class jumping up waving the flag of “the republic”

the middle class and elite just want more power, the monarchy is always the first to be attacked

then the republic turns on its own citizens

I’d rather have this powerful person (the queen) far far away than bob carr, or Malcolm ascending to the throne and fucking us using local knowledge

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

It’s already motivated a lot of people to take politics more seriously. An independent Scotland would be an inspiration for those who’ve become accustomed to chronic political inertia on a lot of issues badly needing more enthusiasm for fundamental change.

the working class innately understand that the middle class and elites are up to no good when it comes to the republic in australia

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Tamb said:

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

nahhh, the English aren’t that anal, that’s something “management” would come up with

Bubblecar said:

There’s a fringe of kilted-up hotheads but no-one takes them seriously :)

They should start videoing themselves removing the heads of those who want to remain united with England.

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

There’s a fringe of kilted-up hotheads but no-one takes them seriously :)

They should start videoing themselves removing the heads of those who want to remain united with England.

theres already been trouble apparently

Tamb said:

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

There’s a fringe of kilted-up hotheads but no-one takes them seriously :)

They should start videoing themselves removing the heads of those who want to remain united with England.

Cutting the heads off thistles?

the republic is just jerk off material for people who want to gain more power and money by sweeping away more laws that aren’t in their interest

the constitution here doesn’t even have the right to free speech directly expressed so god only knows what cookbook of horrors the republic will come up with under the managers here, the same managers that have systematically fucked the place over the last few decades

AwesomeO said:

Tamb said:

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

The union flag contains the blue St Andrew’s cross of Scotland.

Tamb said:

AwesomeO said:

Tamb said:

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

The union flag contains the blue St Andrew’s cross of Scotland.

and Scotland owns st Andrew?

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

ermmmm Scotland was forcibly taken into the union

then you had years of oppression – the highland clearances etc

what I see here could be shaping up as a Ukraine conflict by numbers

I don’t live in Scotland, I don’t know if there are regions who want to live under british rule, its just a guess

The Scottish parliament sent a delegation to London to negotiate suitable terms, then voted themselves out of existence.

pushed or fell?

pushed, fell, bribed, seduces, got greedy – whatever.

Colonial trade was the big issue. Scots were locked out of trade with England’s colonies in North America and the Caribbean, at a time when English merchants were starting to get rich on tobacco and sugar. Scotland’s own attempts at setting up a colony had failed and lots of wealthy and influential Scots had lost money in it.Having access to trade in English colonies was more important than having themselves their own parliament, at the time.

wookiemeister said:

!http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/french/liberty.jpg

Why do these freedom fighter women always have to get their boobs out?

Tamb said:

AwesomeO said:

Tamb said:

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

The union flag contains the blue St Andrew’s cross of Scotland.

Yeah so? Where is the compulsion ie have to. It can be retained as a statement of colonial history.

Maybe the UK will keep the blue cross symbolically, the way the US kept the 13 stripes as a symbol of their original 13 state colonies.

AwesomeO said:

Tamb said:

diddly-squat said:

I’d really like to see an independent Scotland – I think it would add a lot of weight to the republican movement here (which IMO can only be a good thing).

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

What if the formally asked us to remove the Scottish bits from the union jack?

wookiemeister said:

Tamb said:

AwesomeO said:

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

The union flag contains the blue St Andrew’s cross of Scotland.

and Scotland owns st Andrew?

The cross is the Scottish flag. If not in the Union then can’t be on the Union flag.

party_pants said:

What if the formally asked us to remove the Scottish bits from the union jack?

Change the meaning, say it now represents that the Scottish are poo poo heads.

Divine Angel said:

party_pants said:

What if the formally asked us to remove the Scottish bits from the union jack?

Change the meaning, say it now represents that the Scottish are poo poo heads.

I’d much sooner just dump it, and promote the Federation star to the pride of place in the top quarter.

party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

Tamb said:

If Scotland gets independence then the UK flag will have to change which means that many ex British colony’s flags, including ours, will also have to change.

Have to? I don’t see why but prepared to learn something.

What if the formally asked us to remove the Scottish bits from the union jack?

Personally I would say no. But I am not up on the diplomatic protocols that govern relationships between nations.

Divine Angel said:

party_pants said:

What if the formally asked us to remove the Scottish bits from the union jack?

Change the meaning, say it now represents that the Scottish are poo poo heads.

Good idea provided it also is applied to all the other members of the Union.

party_pants said:

Divine Angel said:

party_pants said:

What if the formally asked us to remove the Scottish bits from the union jack?

Change the meaning, say it now represents that the Scottish are poo poo heads.

I’d much sooner just dump it, and promote the Federation star to the pride of place in the top quarter.

In keeping with Australian bogan pride what about a FOWF logo instead

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

diddly-squat said:

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

I really don’t think that would be an issue at all.

diddly-squat said:

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

According to Steve (primus), Australia and the other Commonwealth nations would have to individually vote to accept Camilla as Queen should Charlie ever take the throne, i.e. it’s not an automatic thing and if say, Canada says no, we can still say yes. I would guess the same can theoretically happen with a change of the flag for those countries who still use the Union Jack.

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

I really don’t think that would be an issue at all.

it would certainly, at the very least, require rewording of the constitution

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

I really don’t think that would be an issue at all.

it would certainly, at the very least, require rewording of the constitution

My guess would be that if someone used that to challenge something as unconstitutional the high court would just go nuh-uh.

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Divine Angel said:

diddly-squat said:

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

According to Steve (primus), Australia and the other Commonwealth nations would have to individually vote to accept Camilla as Queen should Charlie ever take the throne, i.e. it’s not an automatic thing and if say, Canada says no, we can still say yes. I would guess the same can theoretically happen with a change of the flag for those countries who still use the Union Jack.

All things aside, it’s unlikely Charles would ever push for Camilla to be ‘Queen’… she would be known as the Consort to the King

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

I think the biggest issue for us is that our constitution is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom and our HoS is the same… I believe there could be a legal issue if the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland was no longer named such..

I really don’t think that would be an issue at all.

it would certainly, at the very least, require rewording of the constitution

Nah, the UK parliament would just declare the United Kingdom of England. Wales and Northern Ireland as the statutory successor to the Untied Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so that all previous references to the kingdom including Scotland now relate to the new version.

diddly-squat said:

All things aside, it’s unlikely Charles would ever push for Camilla to be ‘Queen’… she would be known as the Consort to the King

Don’t tell Steve, but I happen to agree with you. It’s (apparently) too controversial for her to be Queen Camilla, although it would set an interesting precedent.

AwesomeO said:

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

I really don’t think that would be an issue at all.

it would certainly, at the very least, require rewording of the constitution

My guess would be that if someone used that to challenge something as unconstitutional the high court would just go nuh-uh.

while constitutional law is usually about the vibe, this would be more based on pure legal definition.

Bubblecar said:

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

I really don’t think that would be an issue at all.

it would certainly, at the very least, require rewording of the constitution

Nah, the UK parliament would just declare the United Kingdom of England. Wales and Northern Ireland as the statutory successor to the Untied Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so that all previous references to the kingdom including Scotland now relate to the new version.

sure, bu we’d have to do the same

Divine Angel said:

diddly-squat said:

All things aside, it’s unlikely Charles would ever push for Camilla to be ‘Queen’… she would be known as the Consort to the King

Don’t tell Steve, but I happen to agree with you. It’s (apparently) too controversial for her to be Queen Camilla, although it would set an interesting precedent.

Prince Phillip is the Consort to the Queen and he’s actually a real prince, so CPB has buckley’s

diddly-squat said:

Divine Angel said:

diddly-squat said:

All things aside, it’s unlikely Charles would ever push for Camilla to be ‘Queen’… she would be known as the Consort to the King

Don’t tell Steve, but I happen to agree with you. It’s (apparently) too controversial for her to be Queen Camilla, although it would set an interesting precedent.

Prince Phillip is the Consort to the Queen and he’s actually a real prince, so CPB has buckley’s

I wonder if they’d remint all coins and notes with the current queens image if she is replaced

She could just be called The King’s Battleaxe, and armed accordingly.

Yes but then again Phil gave up his royal titles to other countries to marry Lizzie.

Apologies for side-tracking the flag conversation.

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

it would certainly, at the very least, require rewording of the constitution

Nah, the UK parliament would just declare the United Kingdom of England. Wales and Northern Ireland as the statutory successor to the Untied Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so that all previous references to the kingdom including Scotland now relate to the new version.

sure, bu we’d have to do the same

I really don’t think it is an issue.

it could be argued anyway that since Federation Australia has become independent of the UK parliament. Therefore any subsequent changes to the UK parliament are of no consequence to us.

Cymek said:

diddly-squat said:

Divine Angel said:

Don’t tell Steve, but I happen to agree with you. It’s (apparently) too controversial for her to be Queen Camilla, although it would set an interesting precedent.

Prince Phillip is the Consort to the Queen and he’s actually a real prince, so CPB has buckley’s

I wonder if they’d remint all coins and notes with the current queens image if she is replaced

well what Charles becomes king presumably they will change the coins and notes and slowly transition them out of circulation

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

That’s exactly what JWH (may his tribe increase) did and flag burning just dwindled out.

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

Plus if they buy it from an official government outlet they are paying the very government they are protesting about money

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

Nah, the UK parliament would just declare the United Kingdom of England. Wales and Northern Ireland as the statutory successor to the Untied Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so that all previous references to the kingdom including Scotland now relate to the new version.

sure, bu we’d have to do the same

I really don’t think it is an issue.

it could be argued anyway that since Federation Australia has become independent of the UK parliament. Therefore any subsequent changes to the UK parliament are of no consequence to us.

but definitions are everything when it comes to contracts and the constitution is just another contract

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

They should make it obligatory in schools

School kids should pledge their allegiance to the flag then run it down the pole and burn it

wookiemeister said:

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

They should make it obligatory in schools

School kids should pledge their allegiance to the flag then run it down the pole and burn it

Every day when I was at school was a total fire ban day. We weren’t allowed to light fires.

Anyone not burning the flag on flag burning day gets fined or thrown into gaol

Cheeky buggers not burning the flag

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

sure, bu we’d have to do the same

I really don’t think it is an issue.

it could be argued anyway that since Federation Australia has become independent of the UK parliament. Therefore any subsequent changes to the UK parliament are of no consequence to us.

but definitions are everything when it comes to contracts and the constitution is just another contract

I just can’t see it, sorry. As long as it was done legally and in the proper form at the time it was done, it shouldn’t matter what subsequent changes happened later to the body that enacted the legislation originally.Since it was intended that the act would create a new and independent federation of Australia with it’s own constitution and parliament there is no ongoing legal link between the two. So a change in one does not affect the other.As we can’t influence the cause of Scottish independence by making laws in Australia, a change in the UK parliament today doesn’t affect us.

wookiemeister said:

Anyone not burning the flag on flag burning day gets fined or thrown into gaol

Cheeky buggers not burning the flag

You’ll always get radicals, they will always be with us, running around all doped up with their unburnt flags, hurling themselves against the ramparts of the establishment.

diddly-squat said:

Divine Angel said:

diddly-squat said:

All things aside, it’s unlikely Charles would ever push for Camilla to be ‘Queen’… she would be known as the Consort to the King

Don’t tell Steve, but I happen to agree with you. It’s (apparently) too controversial for her to be Queen Camilla, although it would set an interesting precedent.

Prince Phillip is the Consort to the Queen and he’s actually a real prince, so CPB has buckley’s

How does Someone become a real prince?

Why is everyone so concerned about the Scottish Referendum?

It will be just another day

Is it over yet?

I got off a speeding fine once when I patiently explained to this grim faced cop that a particularly valuable flag from Gallipoli had been unearthed at a local museum. I was rushing down so I could enjoy the flames of freedom after we had all finally been released from the yoke of quintin Bryce or whatever the governor generals name was. He have me a cherry smile and a wave as I charged off down the road to the bottle shop.

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

Flags are just symbolic bits of decorated fabric. Removing the Scottish bit would be courteous and logical and would presumably happen eventually, but it’s not some big deal.

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

Yeah flag burning lets burn a whole heap of ISIS flags they will really love that

CrazyNeutrino said:

How does Someone become a real prince?

Why is everyone so concerned about the Scottish Referendum?

It will be just another day

Is it over yet?

The most common way to become a Prince is to be born one. Philip had ancestry for pretty much all royal families in Europe and gave them all up to marry Elizabeth (and changed his last name too).

The Scottish referendum sets a precedent for other Commonwealth countries to distance themselves from the monarchy, and may have an impact on our Constitution and flag- we’re not sure yet.

No, it’s not over yet :p

CrazyNeutrino said:

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

Yes and once again if someone burns one and you act outraged you give them legitimacy.

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

Yeah flag burning lets burn a whole heap of ISIS flags they will really love that

I don’t even know what their damn flag looks like.

party_pants said:

Yeah flag burning lets burn a whole heap of ISIS flags they will really love that

I don’t even know what their damn flag looks like.

I think it’s black with a load of squiggles on it. Which is odd ‘cos I thought that all muslim countries had green on their flag somewhere.

party_pants said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

AwesomeO said:

Yeah, flag burning should be encouraged. Take all the power out of it. Someone wants to burn your flag then fill your boots. Tell’em you are proud to be in a country where anyone can burn the flag as a legitimate protest without going to jail. Unless it is a total fire ban day.

Yeah flag burning lets burn a whole heap of ISIS flags they will really love that

I don’t even know what their damn flag looks like.

ISIS flags are black with some sqigglies, the guns must be part of their religion as well

I’m hoping they vote yes. Then we can stop pretending to like Andy Murray.

where did I ask to be informed what their damn flag looks like. I was quite happy in my ignorance.

pommiejohn said:

party_pants said:

Yeah flag burning lets burn a whole heap of ISIS flags they will really love that

I don’t even know what their damn flag looks like.

I think it’s black with a load of squiggles on it. Which is odd ‘cos I thought that all muslim countries had green on their flag somewhere.

According to a another forum they are not Muslims. Well not real ones. Though of course ISIS considers themselves muslim so I am happy to go with that.

• Yeah flag burning lets burn a whole heap of ISIS flags they will really love that

Apparently there is an online movement, much the same as the ice bucket challenge people, that implores level headed muslims to burn the ISIS flag and post it online. The catch is, it is difficult to get an actual isis flag so they have to be printed onto paper which is then burnt and the other issue is that some of the words on the flag are holy so they can’t burn them, so a similar flag with different wordings has to be burnt…

AwesomeO said:

According to a another forum they are not Muslims. Well not real ones. Though of course ISIS considers themselves muslim so I am happy to go with that.

Christianity has different branches so I guess it’s feasible Islam does too.

Divine Angel said:

AwesomeO said:

According to a another forum they are not Muslims. Well not real ones. Though of course ISIS considers themselves muslim so I am happy to go with that.

Christianity has different branches so I guess it’s feasible Islam does too.

Damn splitters

party_pants said:

where did I ask to be informed what their damn flag looks like. I was quite happy in my ignorance.

then don’t look at it

you are a free person, not like their captives who might be beheaded, or their women which they treat like captives as well

party_pants said:

where did I ask to be informed what their damn flag looks like. I was quite happy in my ignorance.

here they are here waiting for a missile attack

what is that other guy doing?

having a piss?

I’m not up on the semantics of the refernedum. Are they voting to become independent of the UK politically but still a Commonwealth country or to be completely separate and have a president as head of state?

Divine Angel said:

I’m not up on the semantics of the refernedum. Are they voting to become independent of the UK politically but still a Commonwealth country or to be completely separate and have a president as head of state?

They hope to keep the Queen as HOS.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m not up on the semantics of the refernedum. Are they voting to become independent of the UK politically but still a Commonwealth country or to be completely separate and have a president as head of state?

They hope to keep the Queen as HOS.

How could that be?

How could any independent country possibly even think of having the hereditary monarch of another country as head of state?

Oh, wait a minute …

The Rev Dodgson said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m not up on the semantics of the refernedum. Are they voting to become independent of the UK politically but still a Commonwealth country or to be completely separate and have a president as head of state?

They hope to keep the Queen as HOS.

How could that be?

How could any independent country possibly even think of having the hereditary monarch of another country as head of state?

Oh, wait a minute …

Ah, you mean James I, son of Mary, Queen of Scots?
King of England and Ireland, as well as Scotland.

This is an interesting article on the referendum and in historical and possible future context.

http://sokura.livejournal.com/5261140.html

Peak Warming Man said:

wookiemeister said:

Anyone not burning the flag on flag burning day gets fined or thrown into gaol

Cheeky buggers not burning the flag

You’ll always get radicals, they will always be with us, running around all doped up with their unburnt flags, hurling themselves against the ramparts of the establishment.

‘Vote yes or else!’: Police out in force at the polls as Salmond’s bullies are accused of intimidating voters – and even punching a blind man in the face just for saying ‘No’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760039/Salmond-s-bullies-hit-blind-man-face-just-supporting-No-campaign.html#ixzz3DfvgiuXW
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

wookiemeister said:

Peak Warming Man said:

wookiemeister said:

Anyone not burning the flag on flag burning day gets fined or thrown into gaol

Cheeky buggers not burning the flag

You’ll always get radicals, they will always be with us, running around all doped up with their unburnt flags, hurling themselves against the ramparts of the establishment.

‘Vote yes or else!’: Police out in force at the polls as Salmond’s bullies are accused of intimidating voters – and even punching a blind man in the face just for saying ‘No’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760039/Salmond-s-bullies-hit-blind-man-face-just-supporting-No-campaign.html#ixzz3DfvgiuXW
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I still say if the yes vote wins that won’t be the end of it

http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140917/193024785/Scottish-Yes-Vote-Would-Justify-Eastern-Ukraine-Independence-US.html

Scottish Yes Vote Would Justify Eastern Ukraine Independence: US Think Tank

so… what happened?

It’s looking like the no vote is slightly ahead, but it’s still to close to call.

Interesting article somewhere ( Guardian maybe) pointing out how divisive it will whichever way it goes.
Scotland used to be united in their hatred of England, now they’ll be hating each other.

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

Wont see much for an hour or two.

Peak Warming Man said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

Wont see much for an hour or two.

Time difference 10 hours.

Peak Warming Man said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

Wont see much for an hour or two.

until the land war happens and hordes of be kilted highlanders pour from the glens laying waste to York and move south until they are on the M25 London ring road

latest reports

Hadrian’s wall being fortified, british army forming up in garrisons behind wall and a special unit being assigned to guard wall

wookiemeister said:

Peak Warming Man said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

Wont see much for an hour or two.

until the land war happens and hordes of be kilted highlanders pour from the glens laying waste to York and move south until they are on the M25 London ring road

Then the trap is sprung! We capture all the men, then march into Scotland to take over the women and the country. Or on second thoughts just the country.

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

Peak Warming Man said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

Wont see much for an hour or two.

until the land war happens and hordes of be kilted highlanders pour from the glens laying waste to York and move south until they are on the M25 London ring road

Then the trap is sprung! We capture all the men, then march into Scotland to take over the women and the country. Or on second thoughts just the country.

And immediately begin complaining about the weather.

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

until the land war happens and hordes of be kilted highlanders pour from the glens laying waste to York and move south until they are on the M25 London ring road

Then the trap is sprung! We capture all the men, then march into Scotland to take over the women and the country. Or on second thoughts just the country.

And immediately begin complaining about the weather.

Very true.

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

Bubblecar said:

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

45% yes to 55% no

Bubblecar said:

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

Scotland won.

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

Scotland won.

In the long run, as they’ve built a solid foundation for the next referendum on independence, which is likely to be YES by a convincing majority. Especially if the next Westminster government is a Tory-UKIP coalition, as may well be the case.

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

Scotland won.

In the long run, as they’ve built a solid foundation for the next referendum on independence, which is likely to be YES by a convincing majority. Especially if the next Westminster government is a Tory-UKIP coalition, as may well be the case.

yeah but that won’t be for another two decades at least I would think.

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

Scotland won.

In the long run, as they’ve built a solid foundation for the next referendum on independence, which is likely to be YES by a convincing majority. Especially if the next Westminster government is a Tory-UKIP coalition, as may well be the case.

My point was there are no good guys and bad guys, just the Scots making up their own minds. Whichever way the vote goes. Scotland wins.

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

I’m not even going to look at the results ‘cos I’m assuming the bad guys won, as usual.

Scotland won.

In the long run, as they’ve built a solid foundation for the next referendum on independence, which is likely to be YES by a convincing majority. Especially if the next Westminster government is a Tory-UKIP coalition, as may well be the case.

Yes, because an independent Scotland will be such an economic vivacious powerhouse..

rollseyes

party_pants said:

My point was there are no good guys and bad guys, just the Scots making up their own minds. Whichever way the vote goes. Scotland wins.

Well no, it wasn’t “just the Scots making up their own minds”. There was a relentless scare campaign by essentially the entire British media (only one newspaper – the Sunday Herald – supported independence), illustrating the complete dominance the conservatives have even on the allegedly “progressive” side of Brit media.

what ae the results at the moment

is no ahead?

or yes ahead?

CrazyNeutrino said:

what ae the results at the moment

is no ahead?

or yes ahead?

No has won, even though no true Scotsman voted no.

Bubblecar said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

what ae the results at the moment

is no ahead?

or yes ahead?

No has won, even though no true Scotsman voted no.

ok

they had a vote long ago didnt they and was mostly all no’s

and now its divided with a lot of no’s and a lots of yes’s

maybe in another 5 or 10 years it might be all yes

when was the first vote of separation?

the true Scotsman would vote yes to separate? am I right

I think its good in the long to keep stability

if they could separate and keep stability then that would be good too

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

My point was there are no good guys and bad guys, just the Scots making up their own minds. Whichever way the vote goes. Scotland wins.

Well no, it wasn’t “just the Scots making up their own minds”. There was a relentless scare campaign by essentially the entire British media (only one newspaper – the Sunday Herald – supported independence), illustrating the complete dominance the conservatives have even on the allegedly “progressive” side of Brit media.

That’s a “refreshingly unique” way of looking at it.

party_pants said:

That’s a “refreshingly unique” way of looking at it.

Not unique at all:

How the media shafted the people of Scotland
Journalists in their gilded circles are woefully out of touch with popular sentiment and shamefully slur any desire for change

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

breakaway republic of “yes” declares independence

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

My point was there are no good guys and bad guys, just the Scots making up their own minds. Whichever way the vote goes. Scotland wins.

Well no, it wasn’t “just the Scots making up their own minds”. There was a relentless scare campaign by essentially the entire British media (only one newspaper – the Sunday Herald – supported independence), illustrating the complete dominance the conservatives have even on the allegedly “progressive” side of Brit media.

The idea that support for the retrogressive split of the United Kingdom is somehow “progressive” is rather quaint.

Bubblecar said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

what ae the results at the moment

is no ahead?

or yes ahead?

No has won, even though no true Scotsman voted no.

no true Scotsman

joins Bear in eye rolling

The Rev Dodgson said:

The idea that support for the retrogressive split of the United Kingdom is somehow “progressive” is rather quaint.

Nothing regressive about enabling greater regional democracy, especially when we’re talking about a population that usually opts for progressive government, but whose votes are inevitably diluted by their more numerous and more conservative neighbour.

Neophyte said:

no true Scotsman

joins Bear in eye rolling

It was an attempt at humour.

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

My point was there are no good guys and bad guys, just the Scots making up their own minds. Whichever way the vote goes. Scotland wins.

Well no, it wasn’t “just the Scots making up their own minds”. There was a relentless scare campaign by essentially the entire British media (only one newspaper – the Sunday Herald – supported independence), illustrating the complete dominance the conservatives have even on the allegedly “progressive” side of Brit media.

That’s a “refreshingly unique” way of looking at it.

Good observation Bubblecar

meaning they aren’t really progressing much
but they want to appear to be progressing

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

My point was there are no good guys and bad guys, just the Scots making up their own minds. Whichever way the vote goes. Scotland wins.

Well no, it wasn’t “just the Scots making up their own minds”. There was a relentless scare campaign by essentially the entire British media (only one newspaper – the Sunday Herald – supported independence), illustrating the complete dominance the conservatives have even on the allegedly “progressive” side of Brit media.

The idea that support for the retrogressive split of the United Kingdom is somehow “progressive” is rather quaint.

How would you describe it Rev?

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The idea that support for the retrogressive split of the United Kingdom is somehow “progressive” is rather quaint.

Nothing regressive about enabling greater regional democracy, especially when we’re talking about a population that usually opts for progressive government, but whose votes are inevitably diluted by their more numerous and more conservative neighbour.

Perhaps it will be independent Scots who will be reinforcing the wall this time round.

CrazyNeutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

Well no, it wasn’t “just the Scots making up their own minds”. There was a relentless scare campaign by essentially the entire British media (only one newspaper – the Sunday Herald – supported independence), illustrating the complete dominance the conservatives have even on the allegedly “progressive” side of Brit media.

The idea that support for the retrogressive split of the United Kingdom is somehow “progressive” is rather quaint.

How would you describe it Rev?

Retrogressive.

The return to small nation states is the reverse of a move to greater democracy.

The Rev Dodgson said:

The return to small nation states is the reverse of a move to greater democracy.

I don’t know how you’d get the arithmetic to fit that claim :)

Democratically empowering regional populations to have a greater say in their own destiny means more democracy. And as for greater co-operation between different nations, independence may have been Scotland’s best chance to remain in the EU, since it’s looking increasingly like the English want out.

The Rev Dodgson said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The idea that support for the retrogressive split of the United Kingdom is somehow “progressive” is rather quaint.

How would you describe it Rev?

Retrogressive.

The return to small nation states is the reverse of a move to greater democracy.

What are they at the moment? a state of England or like a state of Australia or something else?

CrazyNeutrino said:

What are they at the moment? a state of England or like a state of Australia or something else?

Ostensibly a country in its own right, but part of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom, with a partially devolved (semi-independent) administration, that is nonetheless secondary to the UK parliament in many important matters of government.

Bubblecar said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

What are they at the moment? a state of England or like a state of Australia or something else?

Ostensibly a country in its own right, but part of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom, with a partially devolved (semi-independent) administration, that is nonetheless secondary to the UK parliament in many important matters of government.

Yeah, ok, I was just looking at the Wikipedia page of Scotland and wondering about the country bit

Dropbear said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Scotland won.

In the long run, as they’ve built a solid foundation for the next referendum on independence, which is likely to be YES by a convincing majority. Especially if the next Westminster government is a Tory-UKIP coalition, as may well be the case.

Yes, because an independent Scotland will be such an economic vivacious powerhouse..

rollseyes

I’m not sure I really understand the argument here… Of course Scotland would be likely be worse off economically, but by all accounts it’s not like it would be destitute… The questions would be more about government services an independent scotland would be able to provide its citizens revelation to those it received under the union.

CrazyNeutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

How would you describe it Rev?

Retrogressive.

The return to small nation states is the reverse of a move to greater democracy.

What are they at the moment? a state of England or like a state of Australia or something else?

Scotland’s relationship to the UK is most similar to a state’s relationship to Australia, and will become more similar over time (unless they vote to separate).

Sad day for Hamish McBubblecar.
Hope you’re not an Essendon supporter too.

pesce.del.giorno said:

Sad day for Hamish McBubblecar.
Hope you’re not an Essendon supporter too.

YES would have won were it not for those meddling 16-year-olds.

pesce.del.giorno said:

Sad day for Hamish McBubblecar.
Hope you’re not an Essendon supporter too.

Bagpipes

heavy fighting has broken out on the border regions as pro british forces battle for control of important infrastructure and land crossings

the Scottish government has accused Westminster of meddling with Scottish affairs as 1000 advisors were flown to rebel strong holds

a car bomb has exploded outside the houses of parliament as the government cracked down on images of the haggis, black pudding and angus cattle appearing on britsh televison

wookiemeister said:

heavy fighting has broken out on the border regions as pro british forces battle for control of important infrastructure and land crossings

the Scottish government has accused Westminster of meddling with Scottish affairs as 1000 advisors were flown to rebel strong holds

a car bomb has exploded outside the houses of parliament as the government cracked down on images of the haggis, black pudding and angus cattle appearing on britsh televison

Blockade runners are smuggling Scotch whisky into Britain in huge quantities following a health department warning against making bath-tub Scotch.

One good thing: Murdoch was backing the Aye campaign.

dv said:

One good thing: Murdoch was backing the Aye campaign.

Huh! So he didn’t win that one, then…

dv said:

One good thing: Murdoch was backing the Aye campaign.

Was he? I wonder why.

to stick it to the brits who gave him a hard time over the hacking.