“In the world of postmodern science results are valid only in the context of society’s beliefs, and where the very existence of scientific truth can be denied.
Postmodern science envisages a sort of political nirvana in which scientific theory and results can be consciously and legitimately man­ipulated to suit
either the dictates of political correctness or the politics of the government of the day.”

“We have at least to consider the possibility that the scientific establishment behind the global warming issue has been drawn into the trap of seri­ously
overstating the climate problem in its effort to promote the cause. It is a particularly nasty trap in the context of science because it risks destroying,
perhaps for centuries to come, the unique and hard-won reputation for honesty which is the basis of society’s respect for scientific endeavour.”

Garth Paltridge, former chief research scientist with the CSIRO Division of Atmospheric Research and chief executive of the Antarctic Co-operative Research Centre,
fears the rise of “postmodern” science.

“So even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and our river systems …
“In Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane, water supplies are so low they need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months …
“There is a fair chance Perth will be the 21st century’s first ghost metropolis.”

Tim Flannery 2005 – 2008

“permanent drought”, thanks to global warming.
Bob Brown 2006

“Unfortunately, we cannot rely on this kind of rainfall like we used to.” Melbourne Water

“climate change here is now running so rampant that … almost every one of our cities is on the verge of running out of water”.
The Bureau of Meteorology 2007

Result?

Queensland built a $1.2 billion desalination plant, now decommissioned (2010).
now the centre of a multimillion-dollar lawsuit after insurance giant Lloyds of London refused to provide cover for major defects.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/dud-desalination-plant-at-centre-of-82-million-lawsuit-as-operators-take-on-lloyds-of-london/story-fndo1yus-1226467596650?nk=cb0a770b94985fc033acb12e1b704760

and a report revealing it can cost up to $1 million a week to operate.
http://prelive.goldcoast.com.au/article/2013/06/06/452794_gold-coast-news.html

Brisbane dam levels 83.6 % full.

Sydney’s desalination plant? Also decommissioned. The sale of the plant (2012) to a private company for $2.3 billion means residents are locked into paying about $10 billion in fees for the next 50 years, whether the plant is operating or not & is costing residents more than $500,000 a day to keep on standby.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-27/nsw-desalination-plant-deal-costing-customers-10-billion/4985168

Sydney dam levels 88.1% full.

Melbourne’s desalination plant $18.3 billion, hasn’t produced water since it opened in 2012.
In 2013-14 the plant cost taxpayers about $632 million.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/613m-for-desalination-plant-no-water-ordered-20140327-35k7c.html#ixzz3GeOLm4sO

Melbourne dam levels 80.1% full

Adelaide’s $2.2 billion desalination plant will be placed the plant on “standby” from 2015.
SA Water acknowledged that the independent regulator could demand that the $100 million annual savings be passed on to the organisation’s million customers.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaide-desalination-plant-to-be-mothballed/story-e6frea83-1226488293662

Adelaide dam levels 82.9% full

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

The_observer said:

“In the world of postmodern science results are valid only in the context of society’s beliefs, and where the very existence of scientific truth can be denied.
Postmodern science envisages a sort of political nirvana in which scientific theory and results can be consciously and legitimately man­ipulated to suit
either the dictates of political correctness or the politics of the government of the day.”

“We have at least to consider the possibility that the scientific establishment behind the global warming issue has been drawn into the trap of seri­ously
overstating the climate problem in its effort to promote the cause. It is a particularly nasty trap in the context of science because it risks destroying,
perhaps for centuries to come, the unique and hard-won reputation for honesty which is the basis of society’s respect for scientific endeavour.”

Garth Paltridge, former chief research scientist with the CSIRO Division of Atmospheric Research and chief executive of the Antarctic Co-operative Research Centre,
fears the rise of “postmodern” science.

“So even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and our river systems …
“In Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane, water supplies are so low they need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months …
“There is a fair chance Perth will be the 21st century’s first ghost metropolis.”

Tim Flannery 2005 – 2008

“permanent drought”, thanks to global warming.
Bob Brown 2006

“Unfortunately, we cannot rely on this kind of rainfall like we used to.” Melbourne Water

“climate change here is now running so rampant that … almost every one of our cities is on the verge of running out of water”.
The Bureau of Meteorology 2007

Result?

Queensland built a $1.2 billion desalination plant, now decommissioned (2010).
now the centre of a multimillion-dollar lawsuit after insurance giant Lloyds of London refused to provide cover for major defects.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/dud-desalination-plant-at-centre-of-82-million-lawsuit-as-operators-take-on-lloyds-of-london/story-fndo1yus-1226467596650?nk=cb0a770b94985fc033acb12e1b704760

and a report revealing it can cost up to $1 million a week to operate.
http://prelive.goldcoast.com.au/article/2013/06/06/452794_gold-coast-news.html

Brisbane dam levels 83.6 % full.

Sydney’s desalination plant? Also decommissioned. The sale of the plant (2012) to a private company for $2.3 billion means residents are locked into paying about $10 billion in fees for the next 50 years, whether the plant is operating or not & is costing residents more than $500,000 a day to keep on standby.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-27/nsw-desalination-plant-deal-costing-customers-10-billion/4985168

Sydney dam levels 88.1% full.

Melbourne’s desalination plant $18.3 billion, hasn’t produced water since it opened in 2012.
In 2013-14 the plant cost taxpayers about $632 million.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/613m-for-desalination-plant-no-water-ordered-20140327-35k7c.html#ixzz3GeOLm4sO

Melbourne dam levels 80.1% full

Adelaide’s $2.2 billion desalination plant will be placed the plant on “standby” from 2015.
SA Water acknowledged that the independent regulator could demand that the $100 million annual savings be passed on to the organisation’s million customers.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaide-desalination-plant-to-be-mothballed/story-e6frea83-1226488293662

Adelaide dam levels 82.9% full

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

So you are saying we have not seen the extremes of weather? Weather conditions are far from being linear, as is also the case with climate and most other things. And if you are quoting people you should give the entire quote not just a cherry picked couple of words.

Bang a gong, it’s on!

PermeateFree said:

So you are saying we have not seen the extremes of weather? Weather conditions are far from being linear, as is also the case with climate and most other things. And if you are quoting people you should give the entire quote not just a cherry picked couple of words.

PF, you are an environmental girlie-man

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

So you are saying we have not seen the extremes of weather? Weather conditions are far from being linear, as is also the case with climate and most other things. And if you are quoting people you should give the entire quote not just a cherry picked couple of words.

PF, you are an environmental girlie-man

I assure you Observer, that is a lot better than what most people think of you.

The_observer said:

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

I can’t remember the last time Perth dams got to more than 1/3 full

whats the take up of domestic water tanks around the suburbs or Perth?

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

I can’t remember the last time Perth dams got to more than 1/3 full

Mundaring overflowed in the late 90s. I went there to see it.

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/topics/fisheries-a-water/item/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater

Although there has been a population increase in Perth over recent years, it is not related to the reduced rainfall in the region.

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

I can’t remember the last time Perth dams got to more than 1/3 full

actually there’s three well over 1/3 full

The_observer said:

whats the take up of domestic water tanks around the suburbs or Perth?

They are expensive, our house has 5, 10500 litres worth

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

Perth is the only city where a desalination plant can be considered a positive investment & that is a result of population growth since 2001 of 25%, the fact that it is historically dry, and the fact that as far as dams are concerned, “it’s a water supply that can’t be expanded much more. There are only so many rivers worth putting a dam across, and the most rewarding dams have all been built: 11 dams and reservoirs, strung over 75 km of the Darling Ranges, and all connected.” http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm
Ground water supplies 43% of Perth’s fresh water supply.

Perths dam levels are currently 33.4 % full.

Canning 38.6
Churchman Brook 57.1
Mundaring 12.6
North Dandalup 44.0
Samson Brook 36.8
Serpentine 35.2
Serpentine Pipehead 71.5
South Dandalup 12.1
Stirling 73.8
Victoria 45.3
Wungong 39.2

http://water.bom.gov.au/waterstorage/awris/

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/topics/fisheries-a-water/item/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater

Although there has been a population increase in Perth over recent years, it is not related to the reduced rainfall in the region.

Sounds like we need a fourth desal plant then.

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

I can’t remember the last time Perth dams got to more than 1/3 full

actually there’s three well over 1/3 full

Overall though it says 33.4%

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Well, we seem to have made the correct call. Bear in my that September/October is the end of the rainy part of the year and we go into more or less drought conditions over the next 5 months. So starting the dry season at only one-third capacity doesn’t bode well. We do actually need desal over, and seems to be a good idea.

We also have a domestic reservation of natural gas, but that’s another matter.

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/topics/fisheries-a-water/item/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater

Although there has been a population increase in Perth over recent years, it is not related to the reduced rainfall in the region.

Sounds like we need a fourth desal plant then.

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

> Result?

It usually takes ten of so years after a civil engineering plant is built before it is operating at full capacity.

Take dams and hydroelectricity for example – it usually takes many years for the dams to fill. In the case of desalination it will likely take many years for the dams to empty.

But in every single case mentioned above – population is growing and rainfall isn’t. That means that it won’t take many years before all these desalination plants need to run at full capacity. Melbourne water could already be on the downslope again – my back yard water tank has been bone dry for six months.

I don’t know about water restrictions in other capital cities, but in Melbourne some water restrictions are still in force.

> Result?

“Postmodern” and “science” should never be used in the same sentence.

PermeateFree said:

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

Indian Ocean Climate Initiative.

Changes in rainfall.

Any change to rainfall – the total amount, variability or the pattern of occurrence – has major implications
for WA communities and industries. It is therefore important to understand past changes to rainfall patterns
and how the patterns we see today may change in the future.

IOCI researchers have found that for the past six decades, rainfall trends have been dramatic both in the
north and south west (Figure 4).

Figure 4 Trends in total annual rainfall for WA
from 1950-2008 (mm/10 years). This fi gure
shows where the rainfall has decreased sharply
(brown shading) in the south west and increased
dramatically in the north (darker green shading).
(Source: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/)

Cymek said:

The_observer said:

whats the take up of domestic water tanks around the suburbs or Perth?

They are expensive, our house has 5, 10500 litres worth

how full are they at present?

poikilotherm said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/topics/fisheries-a-water/item/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater/1937-declining-runoff-into-perth-reservoirs-linked-to-groundwater

Although there has been a population increase in Perth over recent years, it is not related to the reduced rainfall in the region.

Sounds like we need a fourth desal plant then.

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

But in recent years there has not been a serious El Nino (drought causing). These events will continue to occur and when they do there will be a shortage of water, which is very likely to happen when the next one happens. So might be a good idea not to count your chickens before the eggs hatch.

Some very happy salesmen and consultancies resulting from when the politicians blinked in a standoff with nature.

I guess the best thing that could have been done is figure out a time frame to build a desalination plant and put that against the time when not building it will result in water shortfalls, they may have done that.

PermeateFree said:

poikilotherm said:

party_pants said:

Sounds like we need a fourth desal plant then.

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

But in recent years there has not been a serious El Nino (drought causing). These events will continue to occur and when they do there will be a shortage of water, which is very likely to happen when the next one happens. So might be a good idea not to count your chickens before the eggs hatch.

There were much cheaper (aand probably more viable) options available. There’s a holding charge on the Victorian plant of $1.8 million per day, seems a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money…

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

The_observer said:

whats the take up of domestic water tanks around the suburbs or Perth?

They are expensive, our house has 5, 10500 litres worth

how full are they at present?

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

poikilotherm said:

PermeateFree said:

poikilotherm said:

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

But in recent years there has not been a serious El Nino (drought causing). These events will continue to occur and when they do there will be a shortage of water, which is very likely to happen when the next one happens. So might be a good idea not to count your chickens before the eggs hatch.

There were much cheaper (aand probably more viable) options available. There’s a holding charge on the Victorian plant of $1.8 million per day, seems a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money…

this is what I have tried to hilite here.

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

Indian Ocean Climate Initiative.

Changes in rainfall.

Any change to rainfall – the total amount, variability or the pattern of occurrence – has major implications
for WA communities and industries. It is therefore important to understand past changes to rainfall patterns
and how the patterns we see today may change in the future.

IOCI researchers have found that for the past six decades, rainfall trends have been dramatic both in the
north and south west (Figure 4).

Figure 4 Trends in total annual rainfall for WA
from 1950-2008 (mm/10 years). This fi gure
shows where the rainfall has decreased sharply
(brown shading) in the south west and increased
dramatically in the north (darker green shading).
(Source: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/)

Yes your rainfall illustration confirms the information already supplied. Nice to know you agree.

Cymek said:

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

They are expensive, our house has 5, 10500 litres worth

how full are they at present?

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

what do you use all that water for?

poikilotherm said:

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

For 10 bill$ we could build the Far Canal Plan from Lake Argyle in the North to the Coles Carpark in Bassendean in the south.

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

The_observer said:

how full are they at present?

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

what do you use all that water for?

To save buying water?

party_pants said:

poikilotherm said:

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

For 10 bill$ we could build the Far Canal Plan from Lake Argyle in the North to the Coles Carpark in Bassendean in the south.

But would it work?

PermeateFree said:

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

>>A NEW study has shown low levels of groundwater are a major cause of declining streamflow into reservoirs that supply Perth’s drinking water, worsening the effects of declining rainfall in south-western Australia.

Researchers from the Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) have studied the contribution of groundwater to streamflow using hydrological data from an experimental catchment in the jarrah forest east of Dwellingup, looking at groundwater levels, streamflow and stream salinity for the period 1976 to 2011.

DEC researcher Joe Kinal says the study was stimulated by a need to explain why there was such a large discrepancy between declining rainfall in Western Australia and declining streamflow into reservoirs.

“Since the mid seventies rainfall has declined on average by about 10-15 per cent in the south-west of Western Australia but stream flow into the Perth reservoirs from jarrah forest catchments has dropped by around 70 per cent,” he says.<<

Indian Ocean Climate Initiative.

Changes in rainfall.

Any change to rainfall – the total amount, variability or the pattern of occurrence – has major implications
for WA communities and industries. It is therefore important to understand past changes to rainfall patterns
and how the patterns we see today may change in the future.

IOCI researchers have found that for the past six decades, rainfall trends have been dramatic both in the
north and south west (Figure 4).

Figure 4 Trends in total annual rainfall for WA
from 1950-2008 (mm/10 years). This fi gure
shows where the rainfall has decreased sharply
(brown shading) in the south west and increased
dramatically in the north (darker green shading).
(Source: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/)

Yes your rainfall illustration confirms the information already supplied. Nice to know you agree.

I can agree that, according to the IOCI & their graph that rainfall overall in WA has well & truly increased since 1950 & co2 increasing a few parts / 10,000 has nothing to do with rainfall dynamics in WA

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

poikilotherm said:

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

For 10 bill$ we could build the Far Canal Plan from Lake Argyle in the North to the Coles Carpark in Bassendean in the south.

But would it work?

Eventually it would be made to work, after we spend that much money on it.

roughbarked said:

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

what do you use all that water for?

To save buying water?

so you aren’t connected to mains?

poikilotherm said:

PermeateFree said:

poikilotherm said:

You can have ours and the mexicans;

“The Victorian experience has been replicated across Australia’s east and south. Plants in Victoria, NSW, Adelaide and on the Gold Coast cost more than $10bn to build but their operations have been effectively mothballed” Teh Orestrayan.

But in recent years there has not been a serious El Nino (drought causing). These events will continue to occur and when they do there will be a shortage of water, which is very likely to happen when the next one happens. So might be a good idea not to count your chickens before the eggs hatch.

There were much cheaper (aand probably more viable) options available. There’s a holding charge on the Victorian plant of $1.8 million per day, seems a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money…

What ever you do, during an El Nino event there will be a reduction in rainfall. This is a land of droughts and flooding rains and if your rainfall will not support the population during drought, it will cost you to make it so.

Could we stop quoting big hunks? Makes the thread really long. Invites skimming. And then I miss something. Just quote the bit you are replying to. Please?

:)

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

The_observer said:

how full are they at present?

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

what do you use all that water for?

We drink some of it but that barely makes a dent, the rest goes on the vegetables gardens and fruit trees

PermeateFree said:

poikilotherm said:

PermeateFree said:

But in recent years there has not been a serious El Nino (drought causing). These events will continue to occur and when they do there will be a shortage of water, which is very likely to happen when the next one happens. So might be a good idea not to count your chickens before the eggs hatch.

There were much cheaper (aand probably more viable) options available. There’s a holding charge on the Victorian plant of $1.8 million per day, seems a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money…

What ever you do, during an El Nino event there will be a reduction in rainfall. This is a land of droughts and flooding rains and if your rainfall will not support the population during drought, it will cost you to make it so.

I believe that each state needed a much bigger population to justify & cover the cost of desalinated water plants

roughbarked said:

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

what do you use all that water for?

To save buying water?

Not really the entire 10500 litres is only worth about $15, to save using mains water I suppose, we are trying to make our household less dependent on others.

roughbarked said:

The_observer said:

Cymek said:

Two of the 2500 litres are completely full so 5000 there and the others are about 1/3 full. With the recent rains over the last couple of months they have been overflowing but come summer they will be completely empty for months.

what do you use all that water for?

To save buying water?

Not really the entire 10500 litres is only worth about $15, to save using mains water I suppose, we are trying to make our household less dependent on others.

I think the desal in Victoria might have been at least in part because people don’t like having picturesque parts of the state flooded these days. Where could you really put a big dam these days. Near Melbourne, where most of the water is required?

(She says, living in a town which is bore water fed, in a house predominantly tank watered)

buffy said:

Could we stop quoting big hunks?

:)

If it bleeds we can kill it

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

The_observer said:

Indian Ocean Climate Initiative.

Changes in rainfall.

Any change to rainfall – the total amount, variability or the pattern of occurrence – has major implications
for WA communities and industries. It is therefore important to understand past changes to rainfall patterns
and how the patterns we see today may change in the future.

IOCI researchers have found that for the past six decades, rainfall trends have been dramatic both in the
north and south west (Figure 4).

Figure 4 Trends in total annual rainfall for WA
from 1950-2008 (mm/10 years). This fi gure
shows where the rainfall has decreased sharply
(brown shading) in the south west and increased
dramatically in the north (darker green shading).
(Source: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/)

Yes your rainfall illustration confirms the information already supplied. Nice to know you agree.

I can agree that, according to the IOCI & their graph that rainfall overall in WA has well & truly increased since 1950 & co2 increasing a few parts / 10,000 has nothing to do with rainfall dynamics in WA

Not in the major population areas though going by the graph

The_observer said:

roughbarked said:

The_observer said:

what do you use all that water for?

To save buying water?

so you aren’t connected to mains?

We are but try to supplement our use

Cymek said:

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

Yes your rainfall illustration confirms the information already supplied. Nice to know you agree.

I can agree that, according to the IOCI & their graph that rainfall overall in WA has well & truly increased since 1950 & co2 increasing a few parts / 10,000 has nothing to do with rainfall dynamics in WA

Not in the major population areas though going by the graph

you’ll just have to move :)

for a dam to be effective it needs to be in an area where there is a large catchment area ie it needs to have plenty of creeks and rivers feeding it

depending on the season and rainfall a dam might take only as much as three days to fill – yes really

a dam needs to be such that the walls of the dam are mostly the existing ground, man made walls run into problems if you haven’t constructed them properly and haven’t taken into account the local weather. you need to think carefully what kind of vegetation sits on earth dam walls – you don’t want thousands of trees growing on them

then you’ve got problems with the concrete structure itself, don’t do it right and you’ve cost the project hundreds of millions of dollars in the long run – like concrete cancer eating away at the structure, or a top section of the concrete dam wall snapping off, yes really.

the vegetation around the waters edge is fairly important – it acts to remove contaminants from the water entering the water

a dam might also be used to mitigate floods, in some places massive floods would hit towns built near the river

a dam can be used for irrigation purposes or townwater , running river systems to do this is ok – pipelines are the best option as water is lost through seepage / evaporation etc

an evaporation plants probably don’t need the same type of huge infrastructure as a dam

the best type of dam is deep – so it can catch plenty of water without over topping

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

The_observer said:

Indian Ocean Climate Initiative.

Changes in rainfall.

Any change to rainfall – the total amount, variability or the pattern of occurrence – has major implications
for WA communities and industries. It is therefore important to understand past changes to rainfall patterns
and how the patterns we see today may change in the future.

IOCI researchers have found that for the past six decades, rainfall trends have been dramatic both in the
north and south west (Figure 4).

Figure 4 Trends in total annual rainfall for WA
from 1950-2008 (mm/10 years). This fi gure
shows where the rainfall has decreased sharply
(brown shading) in the south west and increased
dramatically in the north (darker green shading).
(Source: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/)

Yes your rainfall illustration confirms the information already supplied. Nice to know you agree.

I can agree that, according to the IOCI & their graph that rainfall overall in WA has well & truly increased since 1950 & co2 increasing a few parts / 10,000 has nothing to do with rainfall dynamics in WA

Well I suggest to go back to the link I supplied about the rainfall in the SW of WA, where it will give you additional information that ties in with the information you supplied. In that way you will come to a greater understanding of the true situation. In that way you will not be creating the absurd impression that rainfall in SW WA is increasing.

in some places the bore water levels are dependent on how the local river is running – which in turn depends on how much you are releasing from the valves

PermeateFree said:

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

Yes your rainfall illustration confirms the information already supplied. Nice to know you agree.

I can agree that, according to the IOCI & their graph that rainfall overall in WA has well & truly increased since 1950 & co2 increasing a few parts / 10,000 has nothing to do with rainfall dynamics in WA

Well I suggest to go back to the link I supplied about the rainfall in the SW of WA, where it will give you additional information that ties in with the information you supplied. In that way you will not be creating the absurd impression that rainfall in SW WA is increasing.

I never said anything of the sort.

strictly speaking it would be good to supplement dams with rain water tanks if water supply is an issue

a local council running the water system might charge thousands of dollars to allow someone to hook up a toilet to a rainwater tank – paperwork alone

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

poikilotherm said:

There were much cheaper (aand probably more viable) options available. There’s a holding charge on the Victorian plant of $1.8 million per day, seems a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money…

What ever you do, during an El Nino event there will be a reduction in rainfall. This is a land of droughts and flooding rains and if your rainfall will not support the population during drought, it will cost you to make it so.

I believe that each state needed a much bigger population to justify & cover the cost of desalinated water plants

The weather and changing climate will determine if that is the case regardless of what you or I think. Population is a large influencing factor, but drought is drought and the determining factor.

Topher: Melbourne Water Crisis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwy1dR0oM4

very enlightening especially for Vics

the other option with water supplies to reduce losses is to recycle I’m afraid

making it mandatory for water tanks to be installed with new houses is another option – the bigger the better

The building I was working in today has 10 MVA of generators that are to be used in the event of a power failure. They haven’t fired in anger in over four years, yet they must be maintained and tested, and all that costs considerable amounts of money. At the moment there is a project in place to have the controls on these generators upgraded. That’s going to cost about a million dollars.

I really don’t know why they bother, seems a terrible waste of time and money to me.

(do I really need to add a tic to this post?)

wookiemeister said:

the other option with water supplies to reduce losses is to recycle I’m afraid

making it mandatory for water tanks to be installed with new houses is another option – the bigger the better

Queensland said………..No!

hydroelectric dams are a nice idea but can only be viable where water supply is guaranteed or you have limitless money to spend

in my local area they have always been talking about putting a generator on the water release, one problem, you have to release an awful lot of water in one hit and most likely have to then release water in a feast and famine way – putting stress on the river system

a measly 83 MW isn’t worth it

sibeen said:

The building I was working in today has 10 MVA of generators that are to be used in the event of a power failure. They haven’t fired in anger in over four years, yet they must be maintained and tested, and all that costs considerable amounts of money. At the moment there is a project in place to have the controls on these generators upgraded. That’s going to cost about a million dollars.

I really don’t know why they bother, seems a terrible waste of time and money to me.

(do I really need to add a tic to this post?)

Yes I’d have thought desalination plants are long term projects needed for the coming decades if not quite needed at the moment, plan when the excrement is flying towards the fan instead of hitting it.

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

the other option with water supplies to reduce losses is to recycle I’m afraid

making it mandatory for water tanks to be installed with new houses is another option – the bigger the better

Queensland said………..No!

if drought conditions prevail they have no choice

mind you have to pray and hope the operator at the water treatment plant knows what he’s doing

this was the problem in the “battle of hoth” – they had power generators sat there for ages and the empire turns up moves in on the generators and the whole place goes belly up

wookiemeister said:

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

the other option with water supplies to reduce losses is to recycle I’m afraid

making it mandatory for water tanks to be installed with new houses is another option – the bigger the better

Queensland said………..No!

if drought conditions prevail they have no choice

mind you have to pray and hope the operator at the water treatment plant knows what he’s doing

NO NOT THAT LEAVER!

buffy said:

I think the desal in Victoria might have been at least in part because people don’t like having picturesque parts of the state flooded these days. Where could you really put a big dam these days. Near Melbourne, where most of the water is required?

(She says, living in a town which is bore water fed, in a house predominantly tank watered)

Water recycling plants are cheaper than desal and don’t require flooding

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

PermeateFree said:

Queensland said………..No!

if drought conditions prevail they have no choice

mind you have to pray and hope the operator at the water treatment plant knows what he’s doing

NO NOT THAT LEAVER!

mainly its about knowing what kind of water quality you should be achieving

if the water is very clear that is an indication that the flitration/ clarification process is good, clear water before its disinfected with chlorine is better to work with. you tend to get sick if dirt still makes its way through , regardless of the ppm chlorine in the water

if you are using aluminium sulphate as your flocculant you need to make sure your ph level and buffer are good, you do this by adding soda ash into the water supply BEFORE flocculation

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

I think the desal in Victoria might have been at least in part because people don’t like having picturesque parts of the state flooded these days. Where could you really put a big dam these days. Near Melbourne, where most of the water is required?

(She says, living in a town which is bore water fed, in a house predominantly tank watered)

Water recycling plants are cheaper than desal and don’t require flooding

right

sibeen said:

The building I was working in today has 10 MVA of generators that are to be used in the event of a power failure. They haven’t fired in anger in over four years, yet they must be maintained and tested, and all that costs considerable amounts of money. At the moment there is a project in place to have the controls on these generators upgraded. That’s going to cost about a million dollars.

I really don’t know why they bother, seems a terrible waste of time and money to me.

(do I really need to add a tic to this post?)

Yea, the desal plants are akin to building a few Hazelwoods to cope with a potential outage…

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

PermeateFree said:

Queensland said………..No!

if drought conditions prevail they have no choice

mind you have to pray and hope the operator at the water treatment plant knows what he’s doing

NO NOT THAT LEAVER!

That might have be funny if you knew how to spell

poikilotherm said:

Yea, the desal plants are akin to building a few Hazelwoods to cope with a potential outage…

Melbourne is a city with a population of around 4.5 million, and growing fairly steadily. You really do need some bloody large infrastructure in place to provide water in the event of another prolonged drought.

The_observer said:

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

if drought conditions prevail they have no choice

mind you have to pray and hope the operator at the water treatment plant knows what he’s doing

NO NOT THAT LEAVER!

That might have be funny if you knew how to spell

He was in panic mode, what’s your excuse?

The CSIRO boss seems to think water divination is the answer

sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

Yea, the desal plants are akin to building a few Hazelwoods to cope with a potential outage…

Melbourne is a city with a population of around 4.5 million, and growing fairly steadily. You really do need some bloody large infrastructure in place to provide water in the event of another prolonged drought.

Indeed, but there were options that would have been cheaper and still met demand in the longer term.

wookiemeister said:

the other option with water supplies to reduce losses is to recycle I’m afraid

making it mandatory for water tanks to be installed with new houses is another option – the bigger the better

Space is a requirement.

Dropbear said:

The CSIRO boss seems to think water divination is the answer

I added Paltridge’s quote, it was not directly attributed to the subject of the thread, but added as I thought it was in general very applicable.

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

Do you pee in the shower?

http://www.recyclingshower.com.au/

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

And tame the sand-worms?

poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

Do you pee in the shower?

http://www.recyclingshower.com.au/

I may incriminiate myself by answering, that’s a smart idea to reduce water usage

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

And tame the sand-worms?

LOL, the stillsuits were a good idea, I wonder if you could actually make them work.

Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

And tame the sand-worms?

LOL, the stillsuits were a good idea, I wonder if you could actually make them work.

I think astronauts on extended space-walks use a system to collect liquid waste.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

And tame the sand-worms?

Whom ever controls the spice makes the best curry

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

And tame the sand-worms?

That’s quite witty.

poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

Do you pee in the shower?

http://www.recyclingshower.com.au/

I just signed up to get an email when they are ready to be sold, hopefully not too expensive

Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Maybe someone needs to invent a portable recyling system for our own urine

And tame the sand-worms?

LOL, the stillsuits were a good idea, I wonder if you could actually make them work.

who says they don’t?

wookiemeister said:

Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

And tame the sand-worms?

LOL, the stillsuits were a good idea, I wonder if you could actually make them work.

who says they don’t?

I have no idea if they do or not but the technology seem quite feasible nothing woo woo

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

In the meantime, some of this excess water in the cities (particularly from Warragamba Dam) could well be diverted into the Murray-Darling basin where the water situation is even worse than it is in Perth. In the lower Murray, even something like 90% of the groundwater there is used for crop irrigation. As opposed to for example the Hunter River where groundwater usage is negligible.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

A city can live without a natural gas supply, an electricity supply, public and private transport. But it can’t live without water.

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

In the meantime, some of this excess water in the cities (particularly from Warragamba Dam) could well be diverted into the Murray-Darling basin where the water situation is even worse than it is in Perth. In the lower Murray, even something like 90% of the groundwater there is used for crop irrigation. As opposed to for example the Hunter River where groundwater usage is negligible.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

A city can live without a natural gas supply, an electricity supply, public and private transport. But it can’t live without water.

If you think a city can live without electricity I suspect you need to think again. Within a day without it you have no sewage network. You also have no water. I suspect I don’t need to add the rest.

But pumps are all powered by love and butterflies and downhill of the dam aren’t they?

poikilotherm said:

But pumps are all powered by love and butterflies and downhill of the dam aren’t they?

Yeah, something like that:)

I’ve done work at quite a few of the sewerage sites around Melbourne. From memory if they are without power for 4 to 6 hours then we are literally in the shit.

sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

But pumps are all powered by love and butterflies and downhill of the dam aren’t they?

Yeah, something like that:)

I’ve done work at quite a few of the sewerage sites around Melbourne. From memory if they are without power for 4 to 6 hours then we are literally in the shit.

The Achilles heel of New York is the underground pumps, take them or the electricity out and the place will very quickly return to a swamp.

The Pumps That Are Saving New York

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204707104578092974201267776

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

In the meantime, some of this excess water in the cities (particularly from Warragamba Dam) could well be diverted into the Murray-Darling basin where the water situation is even worse than it is in Perth. In the lower Murray, even something like 90% of the groundwater there is used for crop irrigation. As opposed to for example the Hunter River where groundwater usage is negligible.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

A city can live without a natural gas supply, an electricity supply, public and private transport. But it can’t live without water.

If you think a city can live without electricity I suspect you need to think again. Within a day without it you have no sewage network. You also have no water. I suspect I don’t need to add the rest.

Still, I find the first part interesting, that Melbourne start to run out of water after two bad seasons in a row. That alone makes a very compelling argument for building a desal plant.

poikilotherm said:

But pumps are all powered by love and butterflies and downhill of the dam aren’t they?

this is the type that provides Mr Car with water for his tea…

http://au.grundfos.com/products/find-product/hydro-mpc.html

AwesomeO said:

sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

But pumps are all powered by love and butterflies and downhill of the dam aren’t they?

Yeah, something like that:)

I’ve done work at quite a few of the sewerage sites around Melbourne. From memory if they are without power for 4 to 6 hours then we are literally in the shit.

The Achilles heel of New York is the underground pumps, take them or the electricity out and the place will very quickly return to a swamp.

Maybe they need a few old locomotive engines in reserve that could be brought in and fired up as required.

I disagree a desal plant is the answer, especially the oversized one Melbourne has. There were other options equally capable and cheaper.

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Christ, that is just stoopid.

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

After two bad years in a row.

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Can you guarantee that over the next 25 years there will not be two bad years in a row?

sibeen said:

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Christ, that is just stoopid.

My point is it’s presently decommissioned, never used & costing a fortune for the tax payer just doing nothing.

AwesomeO said:

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

After two bad years in a row.

when did this last happen?

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Can you guarantee that over the next 25 years there will not be two bad years in a row?

that’s stoopid

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

mollwollfumble said:

Last year I calculated for Melbourne that it would only take two bad years in a row to reduce dams from completely full to completely empty. That makes desalination a necessity for water supply.

You’d think that most people would have the sense to realise that an expanding population with a constant rainfall is going to lead to water shortages in future.

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Can you guarantee that over the next 25 years there will not be two bad years in a row?

I’d have to say that Molly’s calculation may be a tad on the exuberant side. We had four pretty bad years in a row, 2006 to 2010, although even before that things were not great. We still got through. It was that period that spooked the sitting government, and the desal put quickly through.

It was worse in other parts of Victoria. Towns like Euroa had to have water shipped in, for instance. The government may have panicked and made a choice that in hindsight they would perhaps reconsider. Saying that, they were the one’s being presented with the scenario of a city of 4+ million people being without water. That would spook the bejesus out of any planner.

The_observer said:

sibeen said:

The_observer said:

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Christ, that is just stoopid.

My point is it’s presently decommissioned, never used & costing a fortune for the tax payer just doing nothing.

Maybe the best was a contingency plan to bring into reality at a certain point of shortage. Which may have been what happened. Sometimes in hindsight with more information, like drought breaking rains, different decisions would have been made, but you can only plan with what you have got and a reasonable expectation about what may happen.

Having said that we kept expensive squadrons of f-111s that did nothing other than taking photos of Tasmanian rivers and leopard tanks that never fired a shot in anger.

The_observer said:

AwesomeO said:

The_observer said:

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

After two bad years in a row.

when did this last happen?

I ain’t playing your silly games.

The_observer said:

party_pants said:

The_observer said:

Yet Melbourne’s desal plant has never been needed to provide water. What year are you estimating it’s necessity?

Can you guarantee that over the next 25 years there will not be two bad years in a row?

that’s stoopid

Don’t ever apply for a job in insurance.

AwesomeO said:

The_observer said:

AwesomeO said:

After two bad years in a row.

when did this last happen?

I ain’t playing your silly games.

Sibeen
I’d have to say that Molly’s calculation may be a tad on the exuberant side. We had four pretty bad years in a row, 2006 to 2010, although even before that things were not great. We still got through

AwesomeO said:

The_observer said:

sibeen said:

Christ, that is just stoopid.

My point is it’s presently decommissioned, never used & costing a fortune for the tax payer just doing nothing.

Maybe the best was a contingency plan to bring into reality at a certain point of shortage. Which may have been what happened. Sometimes in hindsight with more information, like drought breaking rains, different decisions would have been made, but you can only plan with what you have got and a reasonable expectation about what may happen.

Having said that we kept expensive squadrons of f-111s that did nothing other than taking photos of Tasmanian rivers and leopard tanks that never fired a shot in anger.

ROFL.

Must be a military thing, Curve :)

The_observer said:

AwesomeO said:

The_observer said:

when did this last happen?

I ain’t playing your silly games.

Sibeen
I’d have to say that Molly’s calculation may be a tad on the exuberant side. We had four pretty bad years in a row, 2006 to 2010, although even before that things were not great. We still got through

What if the next drought is worse?

PermeateFree said:

The_observer said:

AwesomeO said:

I ain’t playing your silly games.

Sibeen
I’d have to say that Molly’s calculation may be a tad on the exuberant side. We had four pretty bad years in a row, 2006 to 2010, although even before that things were not great. We still got through

What if the next drought is worse?

we climb into cocoons and ride out the drought till it finishes

the rainfall on the shell activates the hatching process