Several thoughts have come together in my mind. Sudoku, the Beijing Water Cube, the Victorian Elections, the SR-71.

Is there a science of problem solving? Solving such problems as “the fastest way to solve a Sudoku by hand”, “the optimal steps needed in design and construction of a building or aircraft given a set of constraints”, “the best way to govern a State”, “write money-earning music”.

Problem solving strategies include: “first principles”, “analogy”, “adaption of existing methods”, “trial and error”, “logical inference”, “small-scale model”. The science I’m looking for would tell us when and in what proportions the above strategies should be used. And tell us which of the infinite number of trial and error strategies is best.

Computer science goes a long way towards this. It concerns itself with the best way to solve problems. What computer science is lacking is, in most but not all cases, maximum error tolerance. For example suppose that every 1% of calculations and 10% of assumptions are wrong, how does that affect the choice of best algorithm?

mollwollfumble said:

Several thoughts have come together in my mind. Sudoku, the Beijing Water Cube, the Victorian Elections, the SR-71.

Is there a science of problem solving? Solving such problems as “the fastest way to solve a Sudoku by hand”, “the optimal steps needed in design and construction of a building or aircraft given a set of constraints”, “the best way to govern a State”, “write money-earning music”.

Problem solving strategies include: “first principles”, “analogy”, “adaption of existing methods”, “trial and error”, “logical inference”, “small-scale model”. The science I’m looking for would tell us when and in what proportions the above strategies should be used. And tell us which of the infinite number of trial and error strategies is best.

Computer science goes a long way towards this. It concerns itself with the best way to solve problems. What computer science is lacking is, in most but not all cases, maximum error tolerance. For example suppose that every 1% of calculations and 10% of assumptions are wrong, how does that affect the choice of best algorithm?

>>“the best way to govern a State”
Machiavelli’s The Prince gave some methods for this.

Tamb said:

>>“the best way to govern a State”
Machiavelli’s The Prince gave some methods for this.

I keep a copy in my bookshelf. The could be seen as half the solution.

intelligence

SCIENCE said:

intelligence

“Intelligence is knowing what to do when you don’t know what to do”. So if this science can tell you in advance what to do then you don’t need intelligence. Or to put it another way – it ought to allow you to use your intelligence much more effectively.

Or did you mean the the name of this science is “intelligence”? Could be.

mollwollfumble said:

SCIENCE said:

intelligence

“Intelligence is knowing what to do when you don’t know what to do”. So if this science can tell you in advance what to do then you don’t need intelligence. Or to put it another way – it ought to allow you to use your intelligence much more effectively.

Or did you mean the the name of this science is “intelligence”? Could be.

So perhaps what is needed is a school course on “applied intelligence”. I notice that there’s already a journal and a company with that name.

in computers it’s “artificial intelligence”, so

SCIENCE said:

in computers it’s “artificial intelligence”, so

I’m on record as saying that those people who work on artificial intelligence have no natural intelligence.

“Applied intelligence” would be better.

mollwollfumble said:

SCIENCE said:

in computers it’s “artificial intelligence”, so

I’m on record as saying that those people who work on artificial intelligence have no natural intelligence.

“Applied intelligence” would be better.

What is the difference Mollwollfumble?

I would add association to the list

mollwollfumble said:

SCIENCE said:

in computers it’s “artificial intelligence”, so

I’m on record as saying that those people who work on artificial intelligence have no natural intelligence.

Having worked in AI, I’d have to agree with this.

btm said:

mollwollfumble said:

SCIENCE said:

in computers it’s “artificial intelligence”, so

I’m on record as saying that those people who work on artificial intelligence have no natural intelligence.

Having worked in AI, I’d have to agree with this.

—-

What is “no natural intelligence” ?

hyperbole

mollwollfumble said:

Problem solving strategies include: “first principles”, “analogy”, “adaption of existing methods”, “trial and error”, “logical inference”, “small-scale model”.

Missed a couple. Add “approximation” and “analysis”.
Possibly also “extrapolation”.

> What is the difference Mollwollfumble?

Well, by “applied intelligence” I mean “problem solving” by humans, with or without computer assistance. Part of it would be in knowing when to an when not to use computational help.

“Artificial intelligence” tends to include things like:
1) “machine vision” – which no-one can yet master.
2) “expert system” – which is a grandiose name for a book with hyperlinks.
3) “neural network” – which is a very poor utilisation of computer resources for machine learning.
4) “fuzzy logic” – which, like neural network, is a way of getting the wrong answer.
5) “natural language communication” – also which no-one can yet master.

“Artificial intelligence” doesn’t even begin to cope with topics like “analysis” and “approximation”, “first principles”, “analogy” and “small-scale model”. A computer with AI would never decide by itself to build a small-scale model, for instance.

still, eye am knot shore most humans necessarily wood either,

Is the error being generated by the mathematical process itself OR by the hardware it’s being performed on ?

Either change the mathematical process or change the hardware / have mix of different manufactured company hardware with the same mathematical process on board and compare results to find out where the process is going on by getting the machine to record every process of its calcs – you could probably then work out exactly where hardware wise where something was going wrong .

Radioactive isotopes getting into the manufacturing process can cause errors in machine thinking when the isotope decays and releases electrons / protons into semi conductors

Run the algorithm on other computers see if you still have the same error

Any kind if glitch happening in the first place should be a source of concern as it might have been going on for quite some time without being noticed

iPhone auto type – glitch

in this case not much of a worry unless you were sending important information

I’ve read that some photocopy machines will CHANGE alpha / numeric values they see being photocopied because the image is being processed by an algorithm rather being a straight photocopy.

If problems persist suspect the operator or the machine

May as well stick this here.

Maths used to treat problem gambling

A radical new approach to treating problem gambling is using mathematics to prove to punters that they can never beat the system.

Researchers at Sydney University’s Gambling Treatment Clinic have been able to reduce their clients’ gambling by 80 to 90 per cent by lifting the lid on how the gambling industry works.

**
Interesting, because I would have thought that logic doesn’t play a huge part in addiction even if your beliefs about how pokies work are incorrect.

Only hard experience will teach problem gamblers that

Give them a million dollars credit then let them loose on the machines in a controlled environment you stipulate a max credit bet each round so it gets the highs and the lows out of the way faster

They must stay at the machines day and night

After a few weeks they’ll be tired and losing money hand over fist

After blowing a million “ dollars” on the machines they’ll know from hard experience that you can’t win

Whilst I was working one day I saw one punter win maybe 1500 dollars half an hour whilst leaving he was fast eating into that win by gambling more!!!!!! On the same machine!!!

They swap the pokie machines around so that you’ll never know which one spat its jackpot already , I think each individual machines are set up to spit out one jackpot in their operational life ( or maybe never as in theory it’s literally all “ chance”)

Either way you put in 100 dollars , you most likely only get 90 back.

The real way pokies work is a guarded secret

wookiemeister said:

The real way pokies work is a guarded secret

Really? Guarded by whom?

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

The real way pokies work is a guarded secret

Really? Guarded by whom?

The people who make them and to some extent the government that feeds off them

Each “ venue” decides how much to fleece the customer

The thing is that if the punter feels they lose more in one location compared to another they stop going – punters , serious punters would over time work out where not to go.

There’s a range of profit you can choose in the settings

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-29/bride-in-hospital-groom-and-best-man-locked-up-after-wedding/5927608
——
shakes head

Sorry. Ignore last post.

pokies in australia are between 87% and 90% payout. the odds are programmed into the EPROM that they come with from the factory and is set there.

Boris said:

pokies in australia are between 87% and 90% payout. the odds are programmed into the EPROM that they come with from the factory and is set there.

It can be set through the machine as far as I saw. All machines are connected to a local server which in turn is connected to a main server, normally the capital city

When these comms are knocked out no further gambling occurs

As I said before , there’s competition. , if you increase your profit the gamblers will deduce this and go elsewhere, most of them set their take to the lowest return of around 90 percent

When you reload a game on a machine with a USB stick this will most likely change those gbling returns , you don’t need to swap an entire board out – or a might be wrong ?

At a venue I’m not totally sure if you can adjust the settings of return of each machine or its a blanket return for the entire site. The returns of machines weren’t told to us very much and it’s knowledged was discouraged.

From everything I saw changing the returns value should be easily done – in this case Brisbane had full control over every machine , with a poll every second being sent back to Brisbane

Boris said:

pokies in australia are between 87% and 90% payout. the odds are programmed into the EPROM that they come with from the factory and is set there.

…but those odds are over the life of the machine, not an hourly/daily/weekly/monthly or even yearly calculation. In other words, the machine could have significantly lower (or even higher) odds for extended periods.

Can the pub change the payout percentage each day? No. The pay back for each machine is fixed at a certain level when the EPROM is manufactured. This cannot be changed by gaming room operators unless they order a new chip for the machine.

http://www.onlinepokies.com/pokiesfaq.htm

In other words, the machine could have significantly lower (or even higher) odds for extended periods.

how? each game is a new game and the odds set in the eprom are the odds.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Boris said:

pokies in australia are between 87% and 90% payout. the odds are programmed into the EPROM that they come with from the factory and is set there.

…but those odds are over the life of the machine, not an hourly/daily/weekly/monthly or even yearly calculation. In other words, the machine could have significantly lower (or even higher) odds for extended periods.

Yes

The most I could ever get out of them was that its a time based
Chance if you won or lost, no button push is pre determined

so you’re saying that they change the odds? cos that is what it sounds like.

Boris said:

Can the pub change the payout percentage each day? No. The pay back for each machine is fixed at a certain level when the EPROM is manufactured. This cannot be changed by gaming room operators unless they order a new chip for the machine.

http://www.onlinepokies.com/pokiesfaq.htm

To my own experience this didn’t happen then

A new board and new game might be installed but rarely did we change a set chip on the board

New games in ultra new game machines were set by USB stick

Strictly speaking there shouldn’t be any reason the chances can’t be changed , modern machines are controlled by the central server they can see everything that’s going on

If someone tries to haul a machine away or disconnect it to have their way with it an alarm goes off as the F.O. Link is broken

I’d say that what you are told is only half of what goes on

Boris said:

Can the pub change the payout percentage each day? No. The pay back for each machine is fixed at a certain level when the EPROM is manufactured. This cannot be changed by gaming room operators unless they order a new chip for the machine.

http://www.onlinepokies.com/pokiesfaq.htm

To my own experience this didn’t happen then

A new board and new game might be installed but rarely did we change a set chip on the board

New games in ultra new game machines were set by USB stick

Strictly speaking there shouldn’t be any reason the chances can’t be changed , modern machines are controlled by the central server they can see everything that’s going on

If someone tries to haul a machine away or disconnect it to have their way with it an alarm goes off as the F.O. Link is broken

I’d say that what you are told is only half of what goes on

Is there a better time of day to win? No. Pokies do not change depending on whether you play them in the morning,the afternoon or the night. They simply pick five numbers every time you press spin and show you what comes up on the reels.

Boris said:

In other words, the machine could have significantly lower (or even higher) odds for extended periods.

how? each game is a new game and the odds set in the eprom are the odds.

It he machine adjusts its game to create conditions for a 10 percent profit over the life of the machine , if you installed it and then took it away the machine after a few years it might have made more or less than what was expected.

Given that machines are likely to make money I’d say you’d rarely be down in takings

It he machine adjusts its game to create conditions for a 10 percent profit over the life of the machin

so you’re saying it can adjust the odds depending on how much it has either lost or won?

Boris said:

so you’re saying that they change the odds? cos that is what it sounds like.

Pretty much yes

well no they can’t. and i would imagine that the law would take a dim view. of course you may wish to believe in some conspiracy, but personally i don’t usually go for that rubbish.

Because it all evens out it doesn’t matter

If it was pure chance then a machine might pay out all day for years, does that happen ?

No

Saying that , ponies are better to gamble on than gambling where humans are involved , like “ racing”

one would have to work out the odds of that happening though. bit like my mum has bought a lotto ticket for 30 years. never won the big one, shit what are the chances of that happening????

Boris said:

It he machine adjusts its game to create conditions for a 10 percent profit over the life of the machin

so you’re saying it can adjust the odds depending on how much it has either lost or won?

So I’m told

It’s still chance as to whether you win or lose

My own strategy is that if you make a win – walk away

Let someone else ride the roller coaster down hill

Boris said:

one would have to work out the odds of that happening though. bit like my mum has bought a lotto ticket for 30 years. never won the big one, shit what are the chances of that happening????

She’d have better success on the pokies

Boris said:

well no they can’t. and i would imagine that the law would take a dim view. of course you may wish to believe in some conspiracy, but personally i don’t usually go for that rubbish.

Each to their own , whatever you need to know to feel better, I just fixed them and learnt about them.

I think the algorithm would be pretty simple to write based on permutations and combinations.
I had a great book on Permutation and Combinations from high school that I wish I could find.

so did alan tm, and he wasn’t a woo artist and never mentioned them being “fixed”. you on the other hand…

Because it is chance you can have two machines newly installed that spit out a 50,000 jackpot

This happened at two sites

When this happened the machines would be shut down very quickly incase there was shannanigans going on.

The machine would be evaluated , reset with the game reloaded and then watched for any further irregularities

had a great book on Permutation and Combinations from high school that I wish I could find.

what are the odds of you finding it?

Do new machines give a better chance of winning? This is a bit of a gray area. It does appear that when a machine is first installed that the game will have a better pay back for the first day of use. While the reason for this is not known it does seem to be a fact

Boris said:

so did alan tm, and he wasn’t a woo artist and never mentioned them being “fixed”. you on the other hand…

Because it was time based statically it was a game of chance, I’m not saying the games are fixed, I’m saying the game is statistically wired to give a return of X amount over some time period. They are not fixed !!

Boris said:

had a great book on Permutation and Combinations from high school that I wish I could find.

what are the odds of you finding it?

I cant work it out without the book.

Boris said:

Do new machines give a better chance of winning? This is a bit of a gray area. It does appear that when a machine is first installed that the game will have a better pay back for the first day of use. While the reason for this is not known it does seem to be a fact

It happens

As I said they shut them down and examine the site for anomalies

Was sent to a few machines that had won , look the thing over and call base and shut it down

I think you take things way too personally boris, I’m just sharing my experiences with them

Frequently Asked Questions

If you have a question about the pokies there is a good chance that is answered here. Below we have all of the most frequently asked questions with answers based only on the facts.

Many of the questions below show you how virtually all of the myths are false. After reading this section you should have a better understanding of gaming machines which should give you a few things to think about next time you are spinning away.

why would they play around with them? they are getting 10-13% return. i reckon a lot of businesses would love that kind of return. there is no need for you conspiracy theory shit.

quod erat demonstrandum

quid custodiet custodes?

SCIENCE said:

quod erat demonstrandum

Mud’n‘Arts? No Med tare? Do UQ!

Boris said:

why would they play around with them? they are getting 10-13% return. i reckon a lot of businesses would love that kind of return. there is no need for you conspiracy theory shit.

businesses do try new things, they might put the return UP as well as DOWN, as a private concern they can change the way their business works as well

I’ve told you, its not “conspiracy theory shit” its just what I was told first hand

here’s an idea – go and find yourself a job working with them and get back to me.

you come back with something better than anecdote then.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/slot-machine4.htm

http://www.responsiblegambling.vic.gov.au/awareness-and-prevention/gamble-aware/know-the-facts-about-pokies

there is heaps on the internet about pokies. don’t have to work on them to get the “inside” knowledge. which sounds like myths the workers believe and have no basis in fact.

SCIENCE said:

quod erat demonstrandum

non compos mentis

Boris said:

you come back with something better than anecdote then.

I could tell you about how I fixed a poker machine with some 5 minute araldite as my last job on them but it probably wouldn’t be relevant

Tamb said:

mollwollfumble said:

Several thoughts have come together in my mind. Sudoku, the Beijing Water Cube, the Victorian Elections, the SR-71.

Is there a science of problem solving? Solving such problems as “the fastest way to solve a Sudoku by hand”, “the optimal steps needed in design and construction of a building or aircraft given a set of constraints”, “the best way to govern a State”, “write money-earning music”.

Problem solving strategies include: “first principles”, “analogy”, “adaption of existing methods”, “trial and error”, “logical inference”, “small-scale model”. The science I’m looking for would tell us when and in what proportions the above strategies should be used. And tell us which of the infinite number of trial and error strategies is best.

Computer science goes a long way towards this. It concerns itself with the best way to solve problems. What computer science is lacking is, in most but not all cases, maximum error tolerance. For example suppose that every 1% of calculations and 10% of assumptions are wrong, how does that affect the choice of best algorithm?

>>“the best way to govern a State”
Machiavelli’s The Prince gave some methods for this.

from a modern viewpoint “the prince” is the last way you should run a state