Date: 22/12/2014 09:38:28
From: Dropbear
ID: 650270
Subject: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

One of the downsides of solar for a lot of people is that they generate their energy when people don’t need it – during the day when people are at work. Most of the energy I use is outside of daylight hours. Reliable, cheap energy storage would help make solar a lot more attractive.

So this is interesting

http://www.technologyreview.com/demo/524466/storing-the-sun/


A new kind of battery invented by Jay Whitacre, a professor of materials science at Carnegie Mellon University and founder of the startup Aquion Energy, could make renewable electricity more practical and economical around the world. Aquion is about to start full-scale production of the batteries at a new factory in Mount Pleasant, Pennsylvania.Whitacre says his batteries’ most promising near-term application lies in storing energy from solar panels or other renewable sources in off-grid homes or rural areas, providing a much cheaper 24-hour power source than a common alternative: diesel power. Lead-acid batteries are used for this purpose today, but they are toxic and require air-­conditioning to avoid deterioration in some climates, raising costs.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 09:49:00
From: Carmen_Sandiego
ID: 650280
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

While cheaper storage technology is a good idea, I think we are overlooking the batteries that are to be found at hand.

Old hybrid car batteries, for instance, are recycled. They may still have half decent storage capacity yet, so reusing them for household storage before consigning them to be recycled may be a viable source of cheap capacity.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 09:49:05
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 650281
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

interesting read. i wonder what the chemistry is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquion_Energy

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 09:49:19
From: dv
ID: 650282
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

Cool. Would need some more numbers (number of lifetime cycles, $/kWh) to compare it with Vanadium redox batteries.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 09:57:43
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 650290
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

Yeah they need a break through in this field, there’s been quite a few false dawns.
However the AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries and solar cells work surprisingly well for small off grid setups.
But AGM lead batteries are ‘ken heavy.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 10:05:56
From: dv
ID: 650293
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

Peak Warming Man said:


Yeah they need a break through in this field, there’s been quite a few false dawns.
However the AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries and solar cells work surprisingly well for small off grid setups.
But AGM lead batteries are ‘ken heavy.

AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries. They are good. But ‘ken heavy. It’s okay, get a mate to help you. AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 10:20:21
From: Dropbear
ID: 650298
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

dv said:


Peak Warming Man said:

Yeah they need a break through in this field, there’s been quite a few false dawns.
However the AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries and solar cells work surprisingly well for small off grid setups.
But AGM lead batteries are ‘ken heavy.

AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries. They are good. But ‘ken heavy. It’s okay, get a mate to help you. AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries.

Something a bit less toxic than lead would be peachy.

And batteries that didn’t need air-con too

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 10:22:11
From: Dropbear
ID: 650301
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

Peak Warming Man said:


Yeah they need a break through in this field, there’s been quite a few false dawns.
However the AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries and solar cells work surprisingly well for small off grid setups.
But AGM lead batteries are ‘ken heavy.

A lead acid battery solution for a single house costs about ten grand

Reply Quote

Date: 22/12/2014 10:28:25
From: Carmen_Sandiego
ID: 650304
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

Dropbear said:


Peak Warming Man said:

Yeah they need a break through in this field, there’s been quite a few false dawns.
However the AGM deep cycle lead acid batteries and solar cells work surprisingly well for small off grid setups.
But AGM lead batteries are ‘ken heavy.

A lead acid battery solution for a single house costs about ten grand

The problem with the led acid is the potential for generation of explosive gasses. Many councils require special battery rooms to be built to house them for this reason.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/12/2014 01:30:46
From: dv
ID: 650803
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

But yeah good on this team, I hope this does give a cheaper household option.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/12/2014 01:35:16
From: sibeen
ID: 650804
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

dv said:


But yeah good on this team, I hope this does give a cheaper household option.

I’ll believe it when it comes to fruition. Until then then the lead acid reigns supreme.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/12/2014 01:42:56
From: dv
ID: 650805
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

sibeen said:


dv said:

But yeah good on this team, I hope this does give a cheaper household option.

I’ll believe it when it comes to fruition. Until then then the lead acid reigns supreme.

it is funny that vanadium redox is not yet much used in small installations.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/12/2014 01:53:03
From: sibeen
ID: 650807
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

dv said:


sibeen said:

dv said:

But yeah good on this team, I hope this does give a cheaper household option.

I’ll believe it when it comes to fruition. Until then then the lead acid reigns supreme.

it is funny that vanadium redox is not yet much used in small installations.

I used to work in the UPS industry, and now do a bit of consultancy in the field. No one would even consider anything but LA. The cost being the ma major issue. The other, LA is a well embedded technology, VR ain’t. There’s very few UPS users who will put their balls on the line.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/12/2014 04:49:42
From: transition
ID: 650808
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

>One of the downsides of solar for a lot of people is that they generate their energy when people don’t need it – during the day when people are at work. Most of the energy I use is outside of daylight hours. Reliable, cheap energy storage would help make solar a lot more attractive”

Well, technically if the maximum load period tends to be during the period of day of maximum sunlight and after the batteries come up to or nearing full charge is probably optimum for reducing losses (depending on charge rate profile), this reduces depth of discharge and recombination losses, and increases battery longevity too.

To some extent the larger the battery bank the worse the recombination losses, in the context of not shifting peak demand as mentioned in the paragraph previous.

I suppose in the situation there is more than adequate PV capacity recombination losses don’t really matter, other than recombination cycles and depth contributing to battery AH decline (longevity).

Regards this “…during the day when people are at work…”, for the moment it might be said a modest solar arrangement is better suited to someone being home around midday to take advantage of the sunlight, certainly in the case any sustained consumption comes near = PV output.

This place here we tend to let batteries come up to or near full charge then adjust what we do and power consumption to what the output is as PV output increases then declines with sun angle and conditions (cloud etc), and toward the end of the day reduce load quicker than PV output declines so go into late afternoon and evening with fully charged batteries. This way if it happens there is many consecutive overcast days we go into them with the highest charge possible,and also reduce overall power consumption. Also gives us the most possible power from sunlight available as early as possible in the morning, so, for example, the batteries might fully recharge from the last nights minor consumption by ~10:30am(summer).

Peak PV output here is < 500watts, initial battery capacity was 850AH (@ 12Volts).

I can run lights all night (one above is fluro, other room LED), run this computer all night, have the LCD TV running all night (mosty runs in economy mode), cook toast, and there’s the fridge (half size, better than three star energy rating), but certainly not in winter night after night.

Gas stove, wood fires.

If get a stinking hot late afternoon and evening (haven’t really had any, yet!) and am sick of the heat and want 1,2 or 3 vap coolers going i’ll get the generator going. Vap coolers will try fitting one with variable speed controller later, presently a single one uses 160Watts on low setting, and low is all we ever need, but they’d be fine at 1/3 the speed they operate. Try it and see how warm the motor gets anyway, first.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/12/2014 10:00:14
From: dv
ID: 650855
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

Sibeen, I am sure what you say is true, but the requirements for UPS are not quite the same as those for a system used to ameliorate a large daily supply-demand timing gap. A UPS system is going to stay charged and will only suffer a deep discharge occasionally, whereas the renewables deal requires a deep discharge every single day for a long time: VR is supposedly able to be recharged 10s of thousands of times without needing to be replaced or reworked.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/12/2014 03:55:28
From: wookiemeister
ID: 651229
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

the patent to VR was sold

very little has been heard of it since

Reply Quote

Date: 24/12/2014 03:56:15
From: wookiemeister
ID: 651230
Subject: re: Cheaper batteries for renewable energy

it’s brother – the same type of battery based in iron seems to have disappeared as well

Reply Quote