Date: 5/01/2015 00:58:01
From: dv
ID: 656389
Subject: Crows and Ravens

So Arts informs me there are no crows in Perth, only ravens.

So what the heck is a crow, and what is a raven?

The genus Corvus contains about 47 species. I say “about” because different sources regard certain members as subspecies of other species.

Of these, one is called the rook, two are called jackdaws. “About” 11 are called ravens, and the rest are crows.

There is not a scientific or objective distinction between the categories, and the groups are not monophyletic: that is to say, the set of “ravens” is not defined by a common ancestor, and nor is the set of crows. For various historical reasons some corvids are called ravens, and others are called crows. The ravens are mainly fairly large corvids but there are exceptions.

The members of Corvus found in Australia are:
Corvus coronoides, Australian raven, found throughout southern Western Australia, and other mainland states.
Corvus bennetti, Little crow, found throughout southern Western Australia, South Australia, NT and arid parts of Qld and NSW.
Corvus mellori, Little raven, found in Victoria, NSW, South Australia.
Corvus orru, Torresian crow, AKA Australian crow, found in Qld, NT, northern WA, northern NSW, northern SA, PNG and Indonesia
Corvus tasmanicus, Forest raven AKA Tasmanian raven, found in Tasmania, Victoria, NSW, SA

Both the Australian raven and the Little crow are found in Perth: the Australian raven is about 15% larger and is apparently much more common in Perth, as the Little crow prefers the drier coastal areas to the north. Of the Little crow, Wikipedia says, “Its food is mainly taken from the ground and includes insects, cereals and other seeds. It is less of a scavenger or carrion feeder than the other Australian species. It usually nests in small, loose colonies, building stick nests lined with mud (the only Australian species to do this).”

http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/speciesfactsheet.php?id=5787
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22706027
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22706033

,

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Date: 5/01/2015 01:03:21
From: sibeen
ID: 656390
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

The Raven is the mascot of many electronic warfare military units; although funnily enough people who have retired from these organisations are sometimes referred to as Old Crows.

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Date: 5/01/2015 01:08:54
From: dv
ID: 656392
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Locals here speak of ravens that team up to loot garbage bins: one of them lifting the lid while the other pilfers.

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Date: 5/01/2015 01:21:37
From: kii
ID: 656393
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

We have grackles here in the SW of NM. They are smaller than crows and ravens. They lower their tails and walk like they are the most important thing around. Interesting birds.

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Date: 5/01/2015 01:46:24
From: tauto
ID: 656396
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

faaaaaaark…

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Date: 5/01/2015 01:50:34
From: Verne
ID: 656398
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

gerzunt heit

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Date: 5/01/2015 05:00:35
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 656400
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

dv said:


So Arts informs me there are no crows in Perth, only ravens.

So what the heck is a crow, and what is a raven?

The genus Corvus contains about 47 species. I say “about” because different sources regard certain members as subspecies of other species.

Of these, one is called the rook, two are called jackdaws. “About” 11 are called ravens, and the rest are crows.

There is not a scientific or objective distinction between the categories, and the groups are not monophyletic: that is to say, the set of “ravens” is not defined by a common ancestor, and nor is the set of crows. For various historical reasons some corvids are called ravens, and others are called crows. The ravens are mainly fairly large corvids but there are exceptions.

The members of Corvus found in Australia are:
Corvus coronoides, Australian raven, found throughout southern Western Australia, and other mainland states.
Corvus bennetti, Little crow, found throughout southern Western Australia, South Australia, NT and arid parts of Qld and NSW.
Corvus mellori, Little raven, found in Victoria, NSW, South Australia.
Corvus orru, Torresian crow, AKA Australian crow, found in Qld, NT, northern WA, northern NSW, northern SA, PNG and Indonesia
Corvus tasmanicus, Forest raven AKA Tasmanian raven, found in Tasmania, Victoria, NSW, SA

Both the Australian raven and the Little crow are found in Perth: the Australian raven is about 15% larger and is apparently much more common in Perth, as the Little crow prefers the drier coastal areas to the north. Of the Little crow, Wikipedia says, “Its food is mainly taken from the ground and includes insects, cereals and other seeds. It is less of a scavenger or carrion feeder than the other Australian species. It usually nests in small, loose colonies, building stick nests lined with mud (the only Australian species to do this).”

http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/speciesfactsheet.php?id=5787
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22706027
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22706033

We have a very similar situation in Melbourne. We have the Little Raven (Corvus mellori) and the Australian Raven (Corvus coronoides). Differences between the two are supposed to be that:
The Little Raven is slightly smaller.
The Little Raven is a social bird whereas the Australian Raven defends its territory except where food is plentiful.
The Little Raven nests lower down on trees, the Australian Raven higher.
The Little Raven has an extra ka ka ka call.

I note also on some old maps a weird curved line separating the domains of the Torresian Crow (north) from the Australian Raven (south). In the oldest of these the domains abut but don’t overlap at all across the entire continent form east to west, in more recent maps the domains do overlap in Queensland and don’t overlap in Western Australia.

Differences between the Australian Raven and the Torresian Crow are supposed to include that:
The Australian raven has a white under-feather on its throat (not visible from a distance)
The Torresian crow has an extra drawn-out Aaaaaaaagh call.

Despite watching these birds in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne for over 30 years I’ve never been able to tell the difference between the species. For instance in 20 years of crow-watching in Melbourne I’ve never seen any bird that I can definitively say “that is an Australian Raven”. We have two pet ravens at the moment, siblings, that free to come and go but we’ve fed them every day since they were nestlings.

About 25 years ago, I became curious about where the thin line separating the domains of the Australian Raven and Torresian Crow came from. I tracked it down to a CSIRO article sponsored by Australian sheep farmers who wanted to know which species of Australian Corvus attacked live lambs. The article concluded that there was no conclusive evidence that any species of Australian Corvus attacked live lambs. The original article is from 1970. On the web it’s $25 to view. I probably have a photocopy somewhere but over that time it’s sure to be as close to lost as anything is. I’ve been waiting patiently since that time for someone to do genetic comparisons on Australian Corvus species, but nobody has. By the way, Google just popped up this quote “The corvid family has its origin on the Australian continent”.

The Genus Corvus (Aves: Corvidae) in Australia

I Rowley
CSIRO Wildlife Research 15(1) 27 – 71
Published: 1970

Abstract

The taxonomy of the genus Corvus in Australia is reviewed on the basis of field studies and a large collection of new material from most parts of the continent. Five species are recognized, four of which are endemic to Australia (C. coronoides, C. mellori, C. tasmanicus, and C. bennetti) while the fifth, C. orru, is shared with New Guinea and islands to the north. On the basis of this material no races of C. coronoides, C. bennetti, or C. mellori are recognized and only one race of C. orru (C. o. cecilae) is found to occur in Australia. Two races are suggested for C. tasmanicus, C. t. tasmanicus and C. t. boreus; the latter has been undescribed hitherto. A key to the separation of the five species is presented; characters likely to assist field identification are described; and the details of species diagnosis, measurements, and distribution are given. The possible evolutionary pathway of these forms is discussed.

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Date: 5/01/2015 06:21:17
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 656403
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

> The Little Raven has an extra ka ka ka ka call.
> The Torresian crow has an extra drawn-out Aaaaaaaagh call.

I have my own little memory device for remembering these. Up north the Corvus says “Aaaaaaaagh it’s sooo hoooooot”. Down south the Corvus says “It’s ka ka ka ka cold”.

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Date: 5/01/2015 08:12:58
From: dv
ID: 656412
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Note that kii’s grackles are not Corvus.

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Date: 5/01/2015 08:53:24
From: kii
ID: 656430
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

dv said:


Note that kii’s grackles are not Corvus.

No.

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Date: 5/01/2015 08:54:22
From: dv
ID: 656432
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

kii said:


dv said:

Note that kii’s grackles are not Corvus.

No.

You’ll do as you’re told, woman.

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Date: 5/01/2015 08:57:18
From: kii
ID: 656437
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

dv said:


kii said:

dv said:

Note that kii’s grackles are not Corvus.

No.

You’ll do as you’re told, woman.

I was agreeing with your comment, you twit.

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Date: 5/01/2015 08:58:44
From: dv
ID: 656439
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

kii said:


dv said:

kii said:

No.

You’ll do as you’re told, woman.

I was agreeing with your comment, you twit.

Oh, well keep up the good work then.

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Date: 5/01/2015 09:31:14
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 656486
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Local 1-: So have you met the new bloke.
Local 2-: Yeah, met him the other day
Local 1-: So what did you tell him.
Local 2-: I told him the one about the crows.
Local 1-: LOL, about one of them holding the bin lid open?
Local 2-: Yeah, teehehe,
Local 1-: That one’s a classic………heheheh………….

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Date: 5/01/2015 09:33:07
From: Arts
ID: 656488
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Peak Warming Man said:


Local 1-: So have you met the new bloke.
Local 2-: Yeah, met him the other day
Local 1-: So what did you tell him.
Local 2-: I told him the one about the crows.
Local 1-: LOL, about one of them holding the bin lid open?
Local 2-: Yeah, teehehe,
Local 1-: That one’s a classic………heheheh………….

they are ravens… you guys should know that I will always quothe the Raven

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Date: 5/01/2015 09:33:16
From: dv
ID: 656489
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Could be that. Boris was schooling p-p on hoop snakes yestee.

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Date: 5/01/2015 09:36:02
From: Arts
ID: 656492
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

crows (and by extension Raves) are pretty smart.. They use available water to soften food, they use cars to crack open nuts and they teach their children to stay away from cane toads… if I were any of you I would embrace them and train some and use them to peck the eyes out of your enemies

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Date: 5/01/2015 09:39:41
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 656495
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Could be that. Boris was schooling p-p on hoop snakes yestee.

Australis pirellii is it’s proper name.

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Date: 5/01/2015 09:47:13
From: Michael V
ID: 656503
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

ChrispenEvan said:


Could be that. Boris was schooling p-p on hoop snakes yestee.

Australis pirellii is it’s proper name.

Hahahahahaha!

:)

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Date: 5/01/2015 15:19:12
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 656689
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

Arts said:


crows (and by extension Raves) are pretty smart.. They use available water to soften food, they use cars to crack open nuts and they teach their children to stay away from cane toads… if I were any of you I would embrace them and train some and use them to peck the eyes out of your enemies

I sure know they use available water to soften food, after they bring in a slice of bread or two and dunk it in the bird bath, the bird bath is a mess. Also, in case you’re interested, a raven will frequently empty the bird bath with a bit of flapping on a hot day.

On the “smart bird” thing. Our ravens have always done the “butcher bird” thing of stuffing absolutely as much food into their mouths as possible, so large that large bits fall off, flying off to deposit it on a distant tree branch and then coming back for another mouthful, and another mouthful. In order to cache their own food for later. Our butcherbirds don’t do this.

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Date: 5/01/2015 15:51:27
From: buffy
ID: 656698
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

I just pulled out Pizzey and Knight and the range maps for the Australian Raven and Torresian Crow have quite considerable overlap. The ravens have throat hackles. All of them apparently have a changing eye colour…brown, hazel, white over the first three years. Reading further, they describe the Australian Raven call as being the one going “ah-aah-aah-aaaaaahh” (going down on the last) and the Little Raven as short, harsh, rapid “car,car,car,car”.

Going over to page 472 for crows, Torresian crow: “Resembles Aust Raven, but call differs, and on alighting, bird characteristically lifts and shuffles wings”……voice: nasal, clipped, staccato “uk-uk-uk”“ sometimes drawn out at end.

There is quite a bit in the descriptions but I can’t find any excerpts of Pizzey and Knight online.

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Date: 5/01/2015 16:07:13
From: Bubblecar
ID: 656701
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

I sometimes call the local ravens crows, but not when my brother is around (he always corrects me).

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Date: 7/01/2015 12:12:44
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 657360
Subject: re: Crows and Ravens

buffy said:

I just pulled out Pizzey and Knight and the range maps for the Australian Raven and Torresian Crow have quite considerable overlap. The ravens have throat hackles. All of them apparently have a changing eye colour…brown, hazel, white over the first three years. Reading further, they describe the Australian Raven call as being the one going “ah-aah-aah-aaaaaahh” (going down on the last) and the Little Raven as short, harsh, rapid “car,car,car,car”.

Going over to page 472 for crows, Torresian crow: “Resembles Aust Raven, but call differs, and on alighting, bird characteristically lifts and shuffles wings”……voice: nasal, clipped, staccato “uk-uk-uk”“ sometimes drawn out at end.

There is quite a bit in the descriptions but I can’t find any excerpts of Pizzey and Knight online.

As I suggested above, there is an urgent need to do genetics tests on Australian corvids. Going by call, size, wing shuffling, nesting height, sociability, is not particularly reliable.

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