WA hoping to win race to build Australia’s first electric car network

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-21/wa-hoping-to-win-race-to-build-australias-first-electric-car/6032678

The race to build Australia’s first electric car highway could be won by WA, with a plan to build a network of charging stations throughout the South West.

Seven councils in the South West region have agreed to support the network of fast-charging stations for electric vehicles.

The facilities, being funded by the RAC, would include 50-kilowatt stations at towns between Perth and Augusta, including the tourist town of Margaret River.
——1

dv said:

WA hoping to win race to build Australia’s first electric car network

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-21/wa-hoping-to-win-race-to-build-australias-first-electric-car/6032678

The race to build Australia’s first electric car highway could be won by WA, with a plan to build a network of charging stations throughout the South West.

Seven councils in the South West region have agreed to support the network of fast-charging stations for electric vehicles.

The facilities, being funded by the RAC, would include 50-kilowatt stations at towns between Perth and Augusta, including the tourist town of Margaret River.
——1

All this from those who brought you the eletric train and tram.

roughbarked said:

dv said:

WA hoping to win race to build Australia’s first electric car network

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-21/wa-hoping-to-win-race-to-build-australias-first-electric-car/6032678

The race to build Australia’s first electric car highway could be won by WA, with a plan to build a network of charging stations throughout the South West.

Seven councils in the South West region have agreed to support the network of fast-charging stations for electric vehicles.

The facilities, being funded by the RAC, would include 50-kilowatt stations at towns between Perth and Augusta, including the tourist town of Margaret River.
——1

All this from those who brought you the eletric train and tram.

Is it good for battery life to use fast charge rates?

roughbarked said:

dv said:

WA hoping to win race to build Australia’s first electric car network

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-21/wa-hoping-to-win-race-to-build-australias-first-electric-car/6032678

The race to build Australia’s first electric car highway could be won by WA, with a plan to build a network of charging stations throughout the South West.

Seven councils in the South West region have agreed to support the network of fast-charging stations for electric vehicles.

The facilities, being funded by the RAC, would include 50-kilowatt stations at towns between Perth and Augusta, including the tourist town of Margaret River.
——1

All this from those who brought you the electric train and tram.

I like this idea.

> There are currently about 1,000 electric vehicles on the road across Australia, compared to 180,000 in the United States.

I did try to get a test drive in a Mitsubishi MiEV, but the local Mitsubishi dealer didn’t stock them and had no intention of stocking them in future.

I don’t count the Holden Volt so-called “electric vehicles” as “electric” because it also contains a petrol motor, it’s a hybrid.

About 1% of Australian cars are hybrids.

> It overcomes one of the biggest obstacles to owning an electric vehicle, which is ‘range anxiety’.

I’ve noticed that the driving range of electric vehicles hasn’t increased significantly in over 75 years, despite great improvements in battery. I don’t understand why.

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve noticed that the driving range of electric vehicles hasn’t increased significantly in over 75 years, despite great improvements in battery. I don’t understand why.

Probably because they think cars need all the extra mod cons other than range of wheel rotations.

Cool

Can I assume all manufacturers of EV’s will use the same charge connector plug?

They won’t use proprietary charge connectors like Apple will they, making you charge only at the manufacturers charge stations?

Aquila said:

Cool

Can I assume all manufacturers of EV’s will use the same charge connector plug?

They won’t use proprietary charge connectors like Apple will they, making you charge only at the manufacturers charge stations?

I’ve never had that trouble with apple.

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve noticed that the driving range of electric vehicles hasn’t increased significantly in over 75 years, despite great improvements in battery. I don’t understand why.

Probably because they think cars need all the extra mod cons other than range of wheel rotations.

We should all be getting around on electric eskies with appropriate shade provision.

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve noticed that the driving range of electric vehicles hasn’t increased significantly in over 75 years, despite great improvements in battery. I don’t understand why.

Probably because they think cars need all the extra mod cons other than range of wheel rotations.

We should all be getting around on electric eskies with appropriate shade provision.

then they’ll all be spilling their drinks.

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

similar to change your LPG cylinder rather than refilling it?

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

with cars like the tesla having a battery pack around the 500kg mark, an exchange isn’t as easy as it seems…

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Probably because they think cars need all the extra mod cons other than range of wheel rotations.

We should all be getting around on electric eskies with appropriate shade provision.

then they’ll all be spilling their drinks.

If you can’t keep a lid on your drink while you are driving you shouldn’t be licensed.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

We should all be getting around on electric eskies with appropriate shade provision.

then they’ll all be spilling their drinks.

If you can’t keep a lid on your drink while you are driving you shouldn’t be licensed.

Nothing to stop you pulling up for a drink?

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.

i’ve long thought this as well. drive in over a “pit”, computer controlled device unplugs old pack slips in new one. storage of packs is the only thing i can see as a problem. need more space than fuel tanks do.

Tamb said:

Is it good for battery life to use fast charge rates?

From what little I know about batteries, fast charging shouldn’t be a big problem. The big problem is overcharging, which is why some fast chargers start off charging at a very rapid rate and then slow down as the battery approaches the desired final charge.

I really don’t know what the maximum charge rate is limited by, perhaps it’s limited by the amount of heat generated – don’t want the electrolyte to boil – which in turn depends on how fast the battery cooling system operates.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

then they’ll all be spilling their drinks.

If you can’t keep a lid on your drink while you are driving you shouldn’t be licensed.

Nothing to stop you pulling up for a drink?

or drinking with a straw.

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

This is one option that has been considered but I think the infrastructure to support hundreds of these ‘swap n go’ stations is more costly and less practical.

Fast charge battery chemistry is being researched and I think this is a better idea to persue, especially for the longer term outlook

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

similar to change your LPG cylinder rather than refilling it?

Yes.

Aquila said:

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

This is one option that has been considered but I think the infrastructure to support hundreds of these ‘swap n go’ stations is more costly and less practical.

Fast charge battery chemistry is being researched and I think this is a better idea to persue, especially for the longer term outlook

The WA system says 30 minute charge. That’s way too long.

mollwollfumble said:

Tamb said:

Is it good for battery life to use fast charge rates?

From what little I know about batteries, fast charging shouldn’t be a big problem. The big problem is overcharging, which is why some fast chargers start off charging at a very rapid rate and then slow down as the battery approaches the desired final charge.

I really don’t know what the maximum charge rate is limited by, perhaps it’s limited by the amount of heat generated – don’t want the electrolyte to boil – which in turn depends on how fast the battery cooling system operates.

The Nissan Zeod had problems cooling and getting energy into its battery packs which it was trying to harvest from braking, batteries were literally melting.

people wont want to hang around for 30 minutes to charge their car. it needs to be a change over unit. 10 minutes max i reckon.

Tamb said:

The WA system says 30 minute charge. That’s way too long.

Yes, compared to what we’re used to now with petrol cars, but when the battery chemistry / technology improves it will be only a few minutes to recharge or topup

…but when the battery chemistry / technology improves it will be only a few minutes to recharge or topup

hmmm maybe but i wouldn’t bet on it. there would have to be some radical new tech to allow such a rapid recharge.

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight. One big critism of the Leaf I think it was that it’s fast charge cable was thick and unwieldy and getting it back into its compartment was almost impossible. They must have packed it tight at the factory and expected every owner to be able to do the same. Not a biggie but annoying.

Tamb said:

Aquila said:

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

This is one option that has been considered but I think the infrastructure to support hundreds of these ‘swap n go’ stations is more costly and less practical.

Fast charge battery chemistry is being researched and I think this is a better idea to persue, especially for the longer term outlook

The WA system says 30 minute charge. That’s way too long.

No its not… you can charge your car at work, or at the shops … any number of places where a 30 minute wait would be fine

Aquila said:

Tamb said:

The WA system says 30 minute charge. That’s way too long.

but when the battery chemistry / technology improves it will be only a few minutes to recharge or topup

I wouldn’t hold your breathe. Battery technology is basically shit. It hasn’t progressed much since Plante was a lad.

JudgeMental said:

people wont want to hang around for 30 minutes to charge their car. it needs to be a change over unit. 10 minutes max i reckon.

and a jerry can of electrons in the back incase you run out on the highway…

Dropbear said:

No its not… you can charge your car at work, or at the shops … any number of places where a 30 minute wait would be fine

But this article is talking about dedicated charging stations set up along the road.

sibeen said:

Dropbear said:

No its not… you can charge your car at work, or at the shops … any number of places where a 30 minute wait would be fine

But this article is talking about dedicated charging stations set up along the road.

it seems popular in rome … saw plenty of them.. people get out and have a coffee and a chat..

AwesomeO said:

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight.

could that technology be built into a few dedicated roads?

JudgeMental said:

…but when the battery chemistry / technology improves it will be only a few minutes to recharge or topup

hmmm maybe but i wouldn’t bet on it. there would have to be some radical new tech to allow such a rapid recharge.

Tesla battery design use hundreds of small cells which has improved charge time, but that can be improved even more…
It’s already being researched and developed, using graphene/graphite

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134635-scientists-develop-lithium-ion-battery-that-charges-120-times-faster-than-normal

mollwollfumble said:

Tamb said:

Is it good for battery life to use fast charge rates?

From what little I know about batteries, fast charging shouldn’t be a big problem. The big problem is overcharging, which is why some fast chargers start off charging at a very rapid rate and then slow down as the battery approaches the desired final charge.

I really don’t know what the maximum charge rate is limited by, perhaps it’s limited by the amount of heat generated – don’t want the electrolyte to boil – which in turn depends on how fast the battery cooling system operates.

Vague memories from 20 years ago are coming back to me, from when I was computing the electrolysis of molten MgCl2 for magnesium production. Memories such as “Nernst Equation”, “Debye double layer”, “Poisson-Boltzmann equation”. In a nutshell, the maximum rate of charging will depend on the diffusion rate of ions across the electrolyte. The diffusion rate is increased by reducing the gaps between the electrodes but at the same time that lowers the battery lifetime because dendritic crystals will try to grow across this gap.

induction charging it pretty inefficient.

AwesomeO said:

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight. One big critism of the Leaf I think it was that it’s fast charge cable was thick and unwieldy and getting it back into its compartment was almost impossible. They must have packed it tight at the factory and expected every owner to be able to do the same. Not a biggie but annoying.

Hmm, I can’t see that as being the most effeceint energy transfer system going around. Use an electric vehicle because it’s green; use a charging technology that throws away shedloads.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134635-scientists-develop-lithium-ion-battery-that-charges-120-times-faster-than-normal

Finally, just thinking out loud: The battery in a Tesla Roadster stores 56 kWh of electric energy. To recharge that in under a minute would require an awful lot of power and some very thick cables, right?

this is the problem of fast charge.

sibeen said:

AwesomeO said:

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight. One big critism of the Leaf I think it was that it’s fast charge cable was thick and unwieldy and getting it back into its compartment was almost impossible. They must have packed it tight at the factory and expected every owner to be able to do the same. Not a biggie but annoying.

Hmm, I can’t see that as being the most effeceint energy transfer system going around. Use an electric vehicle because it’s green; use a charging technology that throws away shedloads.

Consumer convenience trumps a lot of hands.

sibeen said:

AwesomeO said:

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight. One big critism of the Leaf I think it was that it’s fast charge cable was thick and unwieldy and getting it back into its compartment was almost impossible. They must have packed it tight at the factory and expected every owner to be able to do the same. Not a biggie but annoying.

Hmm, I can’t see that as being the most effeceint energy transfer system going around. Use an electric vehicle because it’s green; use a charging technology that throws away shedloads.

And you are merely moving the problem from the city to the power stations.

Finally, just thinking out loud: The battery in a Tesla Roadster stores 56 kWh of electric energy. To recharge that in under a minute would require an awful lot of power and some very thick cables, right?

a new market for you sibeen, designing power systems for households.

:-)

mollwollfumble said:

I really don’t know what the maximum charge rate is limited by, perhaps it’s limited by the amount of heat generated – don’t want the electrolyte to boil – which in turn depends on how fast the battery cooling system operates.

I think it is cell resistance, isn’t it?
(With regard to current commercial chemistries)
As a battery cell discharges its resistance increases.

JudgeMental said:

Finally, just thinking out loud: The battery in a Tesla Roadster stores 56 kWh of electric energy. To recharge that in under a minute would require an awful lot of power and some very thick cables, right?

a new market for you sibeen, designing power systems for households.

:-)

Bit on the small side for me, Boris :)

Unless it is a few thousand amps I don’t normally bother.

JudgeMental said:

people wont want to hang around for 30 minutes to charge their car. it needs to be a change over unit. 10 minutes max i reckon.

True of course if stating the bleeding obvious is necessary.

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve noticed that the driving range of electric vehicles hasn’t increased significantly in over 75 years, despite great improvements in battery. I don’t understand why.

With other battery operated consumer items, power efficient electronics mean the amount of power required to say, calculate and display the time, is orders of magnitude more efficient than it was 30 years ago. A single battery can operate a clock for years rather than weeks. The amount of energy required to physically move a family car from point A to point B remains the same, and we are merely fine tuning efficiencies.

Also, the problem with electric cars is not how much electricity they can hold, but how long it takes to put the electricity in them. For example, the standard household domestic power system cannot recharge a Tesla car overnight.

Tamb said:

IMO. The only way electric car recharging stations could be useful is if the car companies standardised on modular battery packs.
Then it would be simply a case of battery exchange.

+1
There is a single trial battery swap station in the US where invited Tesla owners can (by appointment) get their battery swapped in only 3 minutes.

mollwollfumble said:

I really don’t know what the maximum charge rate is limited by, perhaps it’s limited by the amount of heat generated – don’t want the electrolyte to boil – which in turn depends on how fast the battery cooling system operates.

Pretty much, modern battery charge rates are largely determined by heat generated. Heat shortens battery life.

Tamb said:

The WA system says 30 minute charge. That’s way too long.

The best system currently available is, again, the Tesla model. Their “Supercharger” stations will recharge the battery half full in 20 minutes. (The standard recharge stations would take 5 hours to do the same) Charging past 80% is done slowly.

JudgeMental said:

…but when the battery chemistry / technology improves it will be only a few minutes to recharge or topup

hmmm maybe but i wouldn’t bet on it. there would have to be some radical new tech to allow such a rapid recharge.

seems a long way off, yes.

stumpy_seahorse said:

JudgeMental said:

people wont want to hang around for 30 minutes to charge their car. it needs to be a change over unit. 10 minutes max i reckon.

and a jerry can of electrons in the back incase you run out on the highway…

:) humour is good.

Dropbear said:

sibeen said:

Dropbear said:

No its not… you can charge your car at work, or at the shops … any number of places where a 30 minute wait would be fine

But this article is talking about dedicated charging stations set up along the road.

it seems popular in rome … saw plenty of them.. people get out and have a coffee and a chat..

coffee ulture.

AwesomeO said:

sibeen said:

AwesomeO said:

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight. One big critism of the Leaf I think it was that it’s fast charge cable was thick and unwieldy and getting it back into its compartment was almost impossible. They must have packed it tight at the factory and expected every owner to be able to do the same. Not a biggie but annoying.

Hmm, I can’t see that as being the most effeceint energy transfer system going around. Use an electric vehicle because it’s green; use a charging technology that throws away shedloads.

Consumer convenience trumps a lot of hands.

It is an important consideration.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

AwesomeO said:

Another new technology is induction units in your garage, just park the car and it charges overnight. One big critism of the Leaf I think it was that it’s fast charge cable was thick and unwieldy and getting it back into its compartment was almost impossible. They must have packed it tight at the factory and expected every owner to be able to do the same. Not a biggie but annoying.

Hmm, I can’t see that as being the most effeceint energy transfer system going around. Use an electric vehicle because it’s green; use a charging technology that throws away shedloads.

And you are merely moving the problem from the city to the power stations.

true

roughbarked said:

AwesomeO said:

sibeen said:

Hmm, I can’t see that as being the most effeceint energy transfer system going around. Use an electric vehicle because it’s green; use a charging technology that throws away shedloads.

Consumer convenience trumps a lot of hands.

It is an important consideration.

I recall my father saying back in the late sixties, “they need a different road for trucks”. or “trucks should have their own road”.. something like that. My answer was “yes dad but I thought that is why we had railways”.

Yes, I know I get the short shrift for waffling about but it is true that we had no trouble taking a tram to a set point in the past and we should have no trouble these days, getting off that tram and getting into a small previously charged vehicle to complet the journey away from the tracks.

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tamb said:

Is it good for battery life to use fast charge rates?

From what little I know about batteries, fast charging shouldn’t be a big problem. The big problem is overcharging, which is why some fast chargers start off charging at a very rapid rate and then slow down as the battery approaches the desired final charge.

I really don’t know what the maximum charge rate is limited by, perhaps it’s limited by the amount of heat generated – don’t want the electrolyte to boil – which in turn depends on how fast the battery cooling system operates.

Vague memories from 20 years ago are coming back to me, from when I was computing the electrolysis of molten MgCl2 for magnesium production. Memories such as “Nernst Equation”, “Debye double layer”, “Poisson-Boltzmann equation”. In a nutshell, the maximum rate of charging will depend on the diffusion rate of ions across the electrolyte. The diffusion rate is increased by reducing the gaps between the electrodes but at the same time that lowers the battery lifetime because dendritic crystals will try to grow across this gap.

Remember it now. The Butler-Volmer equation is the one that governs how fast a battery can be charged. Wonderful equation but bugger of a thing to solve. I and another researcher with a PhD that I know of both, independently, failed to solve it numerically.

mollwollfumble said:

Remember it now. The Butler-Volmer equation is the one that governs how fast a battery can be charged. Wonderful equation but bugger of a thing to solve. I and another researcher with a PhD that I know of both, independently, failed to solve it numerically.

Sounds like an interesting equation to study.

they’d be better off building big rigs that are electric than worrying about cars

a big truck hauling a big battery and its load could be more useful in the grand scheme of things

instead of using all that diesel to move everything around use batteries with regular battery swaps

>instead of using all that diesel to move everything around use batteries with regular battery swaps

300-500hp……and there’s them horrible recharge recombination losses…weight of the batteries…..electrical losses….and more

400hp = 290,000 Watts +

Pick a voltage, mate

so the charging will will utilise coal of gas powered electricity.

It will have too, because it will need a reliable source of energy.

EROEI is a matter of urgency & must be considered in this project.

What ever happened to solar cars….LOL

The_observer said:

so the charging will will utilise coal of gas powered electricity.

It will have too, because it will need a reliable source of energy.

EROEI is a matter of urgency & must be considered in this project.

What ever happened to solar cars….LOL

Almost all of the SouthWests electricity is coal powered. I’m sure these electric cars will make their owners feel all good about themselves, but they are really just inefficient coal powered vehicles.

Kingy said:

Almost all of the SouthWests electricity is coal powered. I’m sure these electric cars will make their owners feel all good about themselves, but they are really just inefficient coal powered vehicles.

True dat.

Kingy said:

Almost all of the SouthWests electricity is coal powered. I’m sure these electric cars will make their owners feel all good about themselves, but they are really just inefficient coal powered vehicles.

Yes, but even an “inefficient” coal powered station (even ignoring the increasing percentages of green energy) is far better than the extremely inefficient ICE.

Yes, but even an “inefficient” coal powered station (even ignoring the increasing percentages of green energy) is far better than the extremely inefficient ICE.

pffft don’t bring science into it!