Eating dinner in the garden this evening and watching various birds watching me, it occurred to me to ponder: what’s the most cognitively primitive animal that can watch humans eat and instinctively recognise that we’re doing what they do when they eat? Obviously higher mammals like cats and dogs have no problem, and many birds know what we’re doing, but what about reptiles? When a lizard sees a human eating does it intuitively empathise in a similar way to a seagull? What about fish?

How on earth would one test that?

Michael V said:

How on earth would one test that?

Maybe by close observation of pets. Someone might have a pet lizard that watches them eat in the manner of a pet dog or suchlike :)

>When a lizard sees a human eating does it intuitively empathise in a similar way to a seagull?

anything that has instincts inclining a response to itself (avoiding) becoming a fresh meal…..many are avoiding observing you because observers themselves can be observed……so if i’m shy, reticent and hide away most of the time, it’s because of the possibility that if little ol’ watched you eat I may end up on your dinner table.

(was bit tic there) meaning the lizard, may through avoiding (obviously) observing and being too interested be thought of (at the level of the mechanisms) to have intincts that, if we were to express them in human word-concepts, to strongly correspond with avoiding becoming a meal, so it might be said all those shy creatures are avoiding what’s out there (predators) by avoiding being observed observing. So, from that, it might be argued the shy creatures like a lizard have, built in courtesy bio-history, a native fear of that which might have them as food for whatever, and from that it might be argued that reticence and even shades of fear and hiding away(staying out of harms way) is a sort of “empathy” as you said it maybe.

Like imagine you’re landed on the african savanna, there’s a big cat there under a tree eating an antelope, you’re watching the cat rip bits off and the creature seems to be really enjoying its catch, it hasn’t eaten for three days, you know much of how it feels, it’s hunger and satisfying that, getting its big canines right into it. This you can empathize with, then you observe that it’s only a small antelope and there’s five big cats and they’re fighting over it. You’re a hundred metres away downwind observing from behind some reeds, so they can’t smell you, but suddenly one is looking in your direction, you start thinking you’ve been spotted, and now couple others are getting interested also and they’re wandering in your direction for a better look….

transition said:

(was bit tic there) meaning the lizard, may through avoiding (obviously) observing and being too interested be thought of (at the level of the mechanisms) to have intincts that, if we were to express them in human word-concepts, to strongly correspond with avoiding becoming a meal, so it might be said all those shy creatures are avoiding what’s out there (predators) by avoiding being observed observing. So, from that, it might be argued the shy creatures like a lizard have, built in courtesy bio-history, a native fear of that which might have them as food for whatever, and from that it might be argued that reticence and even shades of fear and hiding away(staying out of harms way) is a sort of “empathy” as you said it maybe.

Like imagine you’re landed on the african savanna, there’s a big cat there under a tree eating an antelope, you’re watching the cat rip bits off and the creature seems to be really enjoying its catch, it hasn’t eaten for three days, you know much of how it feels, it’s hunger and satisfying that, getting its big canines right into it. This you can empathize with, then you observe that it’s only a small antelope and there’s five big cats and they’re fighting over it. You’re a hundred metres away downwind observing from behind some reeds, so they can’t smell you, but suddenly one is looking in your direction, you start thinking you’ve been spotted, and now couple others are getting interested also and they’re wandering in your direction for a better look….

Don’t show interest in their meal. They don’t want to share it.

transition said:

>When a lizard sees a human eating does it intuitively empathise in a similar way to a seagull?

I’ve noticed a blue-tongue taking an interest in me when mosquitoes were eating me. Not quite the same, I know, but it does emphasise that animals tend to take an interest in my eating only when they eat similar foods to me, or when they’re worried that I might want to eat them.

By the way, some seagulls will systematically look through the windows of parked cars in turn to see if any person inside is eating.

Seagull look in cars to see if people are eating or to find food. I doubt they care if you are eating or not, they only care if they can get some food.

Sharks watch dolphins eat.
Remoras watch sharks, rays and turtles eat.
Pilot fish watch many other large fish species eating.
Other fish ditto.
Fish often watch fishing boats eating and hang about near fishermen on the shore.

> what’s the most cognitively primitive animal that can watch humans eat and instinctively recognise that we’re doing what they do when they eat?

As for that, I’d be willing to bet that certain crustaceans can, such as some crabs and lobsters. And possibly some molluscs such as octopuses.

>> what’s the most cognitively primitive animal that can watch humans eat and instinctively recognise that we’re doing what they do when they eat?

‘cognitively primitive’ might also include those of little experience (a newborn) or the near brain dead of the human species, for example. The word ‘recognize’ too probably would need serious defining.

like in this “….recognise that we’re doing what they do when they eat?…” is there in this also that whatever is observing a human eat also has an idea of or instinct for ‘different creature type’, and ‘different creature type eating’..? I’d expect some instinct for ‘not same type’ probably were shaped by a host of forces through bio-history.

Much of organic life on the planet is faced with predation, and ancestors have been through (bio)history, and lots of instincts are sort of just that, not subject to conscious mediation.

So what might a bird ‘feel’ when it sees a human eating, and is that what’s giving it the message its food…..

Frankly I have NFI.

There’s a hint of an answer maybe in that feed/feeding, and food are probably related.

And there’s seeing food, and smelling it too, and the composite of senses, which may ampify the interest/attraction. I don’t see much language around dealing with composites of senses, though do notice television makes good use of it.

Maybe sensing is a better word that recognize.

Dunno

The act of eating (concept of food) is so universal
that anything other than a bacterium that would be
mystified as to why we don’t surround & assimilate
a morsel of food, other than that…anything else
would figure it out…snakes might wonder why we
don’t swallow it whole (head first, of course) a fish
or bird may wonder why we bother using our hands…
& certainly all would question the use of our utensils.

When I’ve been out among herbivores, I sense an
distinct interest in WHAT I’m eating… dispelled if one
grabs a bit of vegetation and at least pretends to eat.

headsie said:

Seagull look in cars to see if people are eating or to find food. I doubt they care if you are eating or not, they only care if they can get some food.

I have a pet galah who knows when we are eating. Now, they are not known to be the most intelligent bird, but they are very social. Firstly, he will see what we have and if it is something he likes the look of, he will bash on his “goodies bowl” until we give him a morsel. If not, he simply moves over to his normal bowl of seed and eats. It is, afterall, eating time, and he is a polite bird :)