There’s a sign up at work labelled Basic Life Support that runs through the DRSABCD procedure.
Check for Danger
Check Responsiveness (Unconscious?)
Send for Help (Call 000)
Open Airway
Check for Breathing
Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths
Attach Defibrillator, as soon as possible and follow it’s prompts

I was led to believe that a Defribillator is only going to be useful for various kinds of fibrillation.

Under what circumstances is the “D” here going to help?

i believe the modern ones are fully automatic. you just attach the pads and the machine does the rest. i guess if the particular situation doesn’t warrant a defib then it wont do anything. i could be wrong as it is a couple of years since i did the first aid course.

Boris said:

i believe the modern ones are fully automatic. you just attach the pads and the machine does the rest. i guess if the particular situation doesn’t warrant a defib then it wont do anything. i could be wrong as it is a couple of years since i did the first aid course.

you are correct.. they are almost fool proof now.. and early intervention = survivability

dv said:

Under what circumstances is the “D” here going to help?

Fibrillation or pulseless ventricular tachycardia.

(ventricular fibrillation, I mean)

probably in most of the circumstances where the “C” is actually going to help

dv said:

Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths

Off-topic, I know, but isn’t the present advice to just give the compressions (no breaths)?

btm said:

dv said:

Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths

Off-topic, I know, but isn’t the present advice to just give the compressions (no breaths)?

Last time I did CPR (May last year) they still teach the breaths

There is some confusion. Apparently it’s do the breaths if you are happy to do the breaths, but if that freaks you out, at least do the compressions.

I asked Mr buffy about this the other night. He’s not teaching any more, but that it what he told me.

If you want to look it up, I think it’s the Australian Resuscitation Council website you need.

Dropbear said:

btm said:

dv said:

Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths

Off-topic, I know, but isn’t the present advice to just give the compressions (no breaths)?

Last time I did CPR (May last year) they still teach the breaths

They’ve only changed how many per set of breaths right?

Postpocelipse said:

Dropbear said:

btm said:

Off-topic, I know, but isn’t the present advice to just give the compressions (no breaths)?

Last time I did CPR (May last year) they still teach the breaths

They’ve only changed how many per set of compressions right?

fixed

They’ve changed the frequency of breaths to compressions

Flowcharts here:

http://resus.org.au/

The important thing to remember is that you will probably fail

Dropbear said:

The important thing to remember is that you will probably fail

I resuscitated my mother’s dog a long time ago. We took her to the vet and she was euth’ed. The dog, not mum.

Dropbear said:

The important thing to remember is that you will probably fail

But it might work. Mr buffy has had two saves in the last couple of years which were saves because the people around the patient made the effort. And remember response times here are not 5 minutes. The resuscitators were tired…..

By the same token, if it does fail, no-one should feel at fault. Some people are just not coming back. A couple of weeks ago a local Ambulance Community Officer (in his forties) had a heart attack at the pub in the company of many trained people. He didn’t make it. The young heart attacks, according to Mr buffy, are dead before they hit the ground and very often won’t come back. They haven’t yet developed the collateral new vessels around the heart that older folk develop as things start to fail with age.

buffy said:

They haven’t yet developed the collateral new vessels around the heart that older folk develop as things start to fail with age.

That’s interesting.

One of my SILs was recently hospitalised with heart failure – from what I understand she has never cared for her health and has an attitude of – don’t tell me what to do! She thinks she knows better than the professionals about everything :/ She had her check up yesterday and it’s all good and she “…can’t wait to get back to normal”. We think her idea of normal is not a good thing and she has not heeded this warning. There’s a family history of heart issues with bypasses for a few people and severe obesity running amok for many of them (not mr kii).

Arts said:

Boris said:

i believe the modern ones are fully automatic. you just attach the pads and the machine does the rest. i guess if the particular situation doesn’t warrant a defib then it wont do anything. i could be wrong as it is a couple of years since i did the first aid course.

you are correct.. they are almost fool proof now.. and early intervention = survivability

I believe so. I know where to find a defibrillator on the CSIRO Clayton site. It was part of the safety induction course for people joining CSIRO. We were not given detailed instructions on how to use it but simply told that the instructions were self-explanatory.

mollwollfumble said:

Arts said:

Boris said:

i believe the modern ones are fully automatic. you just attach the pads and the machine does the rest. i guess if the particular situation doesn’t warrant a defib then it wont do anything. i could be wrong as it is a couple of years since i did the first aid course.

you are correct.. they are almost fool proof now.. and early intervention = survivability

I believe so. I know where to find a defibrillator on the CSIRO Clayton site. It was part of the safety induction course for people joining CSIRO. We were not given detailed instructions on how to use it but simply told that the instructions were self-explanatory.

we had a demo machine for our training, it talks you through the lot, assesses the ‘victim’ and defibs if needed, if they don’t need it, it doesn’t administer it.

very easy to use

dv said:

There’s a sign up at work labelled Basic Life Support that runs through the DRSABCD procedure.
Check for Danger
Check Responsiveness (Unconscious?)
Send for Help (Call 000)
Open Airway
Check for Breathing
Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths
Attach Defibrillator, as soon as possible and follow it’s prompts

Under what circumstances is the “D” here going to help?

What are you supposed to do if the person isn’t responsive? Slap their face?
Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?
No mention on that list of bleeding, or what to do about it.
At what point to you treat snake bite?

The current resuscitation guidelines are:

After checking that the airway is clear, if the patient is not breathing, deliver 30 compressions in the space of 20 seconds at the centre of the chest, to a depth of 1/3rd the thickness of the chest; then two breaths.

If you are unable or unwilling to deliver breaths, deliver compressions at the rate of 100 per minute.

Hope that helps.

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

There’s a sign up at work labelled Basic Life Support that runs through the DRSABCD procedure.
Check for Danger
Check Responsiveness (Unconscious?)
Send for Help (Call 000)
Open Airway
Check for Breathing
Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths
Attach Defibrillator, as soon as possible and follow it’s prompts

Under what circumstances is the “D” here going to help?

What are you supposed to do if the person isn’t responsive? Slap their face?
Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?
No mention on that list of bleeding, or what to do about it.
At what point to you treat snake bite?

If their heart is not in fibrillation, then a defib won’t do sh*t….

still. whack it on and see if the machine wants to go bing…

Dropbear said:

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

There’s a sign up at work labelled Basic Life Support that runs through the DRSABCD procedure.
Check for Danger
Check Responsiveness (Unconscious?)
Send for Help (Call 000)
Open Airway
Check for Breathing
Start CPR, 30 compressions 2 breaths
Attach Defibrillator, as soon as possible and follow it’s prompts

Under what circumstances is the “D” here going to help?

What are you supposed to do if the person isn’t responsive? Slap their face?
Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?
No mention on that list of bleeding, or what to do about it.
At what point to you treat snake bite?

If their heart is not in fibrillation, then a defib won’t do sh*t….

still. whack it on and see if the machine wants to go bing…

mollwollfumble said:

What are you supposed to do if the person isn’t responsive? Slap their face?

Attempt to get a response by using the COWS list – Loudly ask:
Can you hear me?
Open your eyes.
What is your name?
Squeeze my hands.

These are prompts for consciousness that work at diminishing levels.

mollwollfumble said:

Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?

Nope. It’s gone. For lots of reasons I wont bore you with.

mollwollfumble said:

No mention on that list of bleeding, or what to do about it.

Bleeding sits a long way down the list of priorities in basic life support, but briefly, we:

Clean it.
Cover it.
Compress it.
Elevate it.

mollwollfumble said:

At what point to you treat snake bite?

Immediately. The treatment is to keep the limb, and the whole person, as still as possible. Wrap a compressive bandage firmly along the whole limb and transport the patient to hospital.

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

What are you supposed to do if the person isn’t responsive? Slap their face?

Attempt to get a response by using the COWS list – Loudly ask:
Can you hear me?
Open your eyes.
What is your name?
Squeeze my hands.

These are prompts for consciousness that work at diminishing levels.

mollwollfumble said:

Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?

Nope. It’s gone. For lots of reasons I wont bore you with.

mollwollfumble said:

No mention on that list of bleeding, or what to do about it.

Bleeding sits a long way down the list of priorities in basic life support, but briefly, we:

Clean it.
Cover it.
Compress it.
Elevate it.

mollwollfumble said:

At what point to you treat snake bite?

Immediately. The treatment is to keep the limb, and the whole person, as still as possible. Wrap a compressive bandage firmly along the whole limb and transport the patient to hospital.

Clean it? Wouldn’t that risk washing away any formed coagulation and some folk might interpret it to mean remove the object hanging out?

Also don’t check for pulse before CPR? So basically just check they are not breathing then?

yeh pulse is not in CPR training anymore.. if they’re not breathing, then commence CPR..

Dropbear said:

yeh pulse is not in CPR training anymore.. if they’re not breathing, then commence CPR..

Is it generally accepted that if they’re no breathing, then they have no pulse?

pommiejohn said:

Dropbear said:

yeh pulse is not in CPR training anymore.. if they’re not breathing, then commence CPR..

Is it generally accepted that if they’re no breathing, then they have no pulse?

the way it was explained to me is that if you’re wasting time trying to find and check a pulse (is it there, is it fast, is it regular, is it racing etc etc etc who cares) then you’re not doing CPR… the common numpty on the street (ie me) can take a long time to try and find an analyze a pulse.

someone like Rule would know a lot more than that…

AwesomeO said:

Clean it? Wouldn’t that risk washing away any formed coagulation and some folk might interpret it to mean remove the object hanging out?

Yes, and yes. There’s some idiots out there…

AwesomeO said:

Also don’t check for pulse before CPR? So basically just check they are not breathing then?

Yes.

pommiejohn said:

Is it generally accepted that if they’re no breathing, then they have no pulse?

Yes. Even the people who begin with a pulse (but no breathing) wont have a pulse for long.

Rule 303 said:

AwesomeO said:

Clean it? Wouldn’t that risk washing away any formed coagulation and some folk might interpret it to mean remove the object hanging out?

Yes, and yes. There’s some idiots out there…

AwesomeO said:

Also don’t check for pulse before CPR? So basically just check they are not breathing then?

Yes.

I was taught. First thing is ensure you are not the next victim.

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

AwesomeO said:

Clean it? Wouldn’t that risk washing away any formed coagulation and some folk might interpret it to mean remove the object hanging out?

Yes, and yes. There’s some idiots out there…

AwesomeO said:

Also don’t check for pulse before CPR? So basically just check they are not breathing then?

Yes.

I was taught. First thing is ensure you are not the next victim.

Hence the “D” in “DRSABCD”

Rule 303 said:

pommiejohn said:

Is it generally accepted that if they’re no breathing, then they have no pulse?

Yes. Even the people who begin with a pulse (but no breathing) wont have a pulse for long.

OK. Thanks.

I once found a guy passed out on the street and couldn’t find a pulse, he was breathing. Just me not being able to find a pulse was the problem.

Ambos came and made a quick diagnosis by looking in his bag…two empty bottles of something string.

Dropbear said:

someone like Rule would know a lot more than that…

That’s kind of you but no. It wouldn’t matter what I (or anyone else) might know, the Aust Resus Council guidelines apply to everyone. If you go outside them, you’re leaving yourself open to all sorts of complications.

Dropbear said:

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

Yes.

I was taught. First thing is ensure you are not the next victim.

Hence the “D” in “DRSABCD”

OOps. misinterpreted the D

Rule 303 said:

Dropbear said:

someone like Rule would know a lot more than that…

That’s kind of you

IKR?

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

AwesomeO said:

Clean it? Wouldn’t that risk washing away any formed coagulation and some folk might interpret it to mean remove the object hanging out?

Yes, and yes. There’s some idiots out there…

AwesomeO said:

Also don’t check for pulse before CPR? So basically just check they are not breathing then?

Yes.

I was taught. First thing is ensure you are not the next victim.

That’s correct.

D for Danger – first D in:

DRSABCD

One of the first things we learned in the CG was what to do if someone passes out in a confined space…

(basically notify next of kin)… you’re not going in after them unless you can ensure that the space has been adequately ventilated

hence the “D”

in many situations sending for help immediately is more useful

eg

you come in a find a motionless person. you get someone to call for the ambulance then work out the dangers . you don’t enter the space unless you are sure there’s not a problem

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?

Nope. It’s gone. For lots of reasons I wont bore you with.

Interesting. I had a drowning victim a few years ago who wasn’t breathing, but had a weak pulse. I revived him with just EAR.

btm said:

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

Also, I don’t see anything on that list about checking for pulse. Is that before or during CPR?

Nope. It’s gone. For lots of reasons I wont bore you with.

Interesting. I had a drowning victim a few years ago who wasn’t breathing, but had a weak pulse. I revived him with just EAR.

I once rescued a lady having a fit on a railway platform. It mainly consisted of stopping her flopping onto the tracks & being sushied.

Tamb said:

btm said:

Rule 303 said:

Nope. It’s gone. For lots of reasons I wont bore you with.

Interesting. I had a drowning victim a few years ago who wasn’t breathing, but had a weak pulse. I revived him with just EAR.

I once rescued a lady having a fit on a railway platform. It mainly consisted of stopping her flopping onto the tracks & being sushied.

I think the new guidelines say to take a selfie instead.

Jupiter’s surface gravity is about 2.5 times that of Earth’s; SR says time flows at a different rate under those circumstances. What rate is that? That is, on Earth’s surface, time runs at 1 second per second; how quickly does it run on Jupiter’s surface?

How did that get here? Sorry.

btm said:

How did that get here? Sorry.

Jupiter has great attractive powers.

regardless what they might tell you

send for help if you can- start calling and put on loud speaker if alone

look for danger gas? electricity. think of known dangers of the area eg arsine gas colourless , smell less gas detectors switched on? dangers are within context with what’s going on

response

airway

breathing

pulse

damage to body , unusual lumps ?

the consensus is to leave something that’s punctured you IN

that’s what killed Steve Irwin he yanked the spear out doing more damage

btm said:

Jupiter’s surface gravity is about 2.5 times that of Earth’s; SR says time flows at a different rate under those circumstances. What rate is that? That is, on Earth’s surface, time runs at 1 second per second; how quickly does it run on Jupiter’s surface?

I’ll have to find my service tech cheat sheet for that

wookiemeister said:

that’s what killed Steve Irwin he yanked the spear out doing more damage

Barb to the heart killed Steve Irwin. Yanking it out probably sped things up a little.

last night a DJ saved my life

btm said:

How did that get here? Sorry.

that’s what Steve said

I must say, i’ve never heard the word ‘smell-less’ used before in that context

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/10/20/1160851103853.html

stumpy_seahorse said:

I must say, i’ve never heard the word ‘smell-less’ used before in that context

H2S is another bad one. If you can smell it you are being poisoned. When you stop smelling it you have been poisoned.

Tamb said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

I must say, i’ve never heard the word ‘smell-less’ used before in that context

H2S is another bad one. If you can smell it you are being poisoned. When you stop smelling it you have been poisoned.

yeah, i understand that, but what is the difference between ‘smell-less’ and ‘odourless’? (which is commonly used when referring to gases)

arsine gas doesn’t give you many chances, you never smell or see it, the only possible clue would be animals / people falling dead around you

NCB training says similar things about gas weapons

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tamb said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

I must say, i’ve never heard the word ‘smell-less’ used before in that context

H2S is another bad one. If you can smell it you are being poisoned. When you stop smelling it you have been poisoned.

yeah, i understand that, but what is the difference between ‘smell-less’ and ‘odourless’? (which is commonly used when referring to gases)

I agree, odourless is a better & far more widely used term.

Tamb said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tamb said:

H2S is another bad one. If you can smell it you are being poisoned. When you stop smelling it you have been poisoned.

yeah, i understand that, but what is the difference between ‘smell-less’ and ‘odourless’? (which is commonly used when referring to gases)

I agree, odourless is a better & far more widely used term.

like inflammable and flammable

wookiemeister said:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/10/20/1160851103853.html

So someone’s survived it before, so I guess it’s possible. Death from accidents most often occur due to a series of unlikely events. I still think that it was the barb to the heart that would have killed him either way. The fact that he pulled it out was not the cause of death.

I find some things incredibly eatable

Tamb said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tamb said:

H2S is another bad one. If you can smell it you are being poisoned. When you stop smelling it you have been poisoned.

yeah, i understand that, but what is the difference between ‘smell-less’ and ‘odourless’? (which is commonly used when referring to gases)

I agree, odourless is a better & far more widely used term.

the words generally used to describe gasses are colorless, odorless, tasteless and toxic/non-toxic

Speedy said:

wookiemeister said:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/10/20/1160851103853.html

So someone’s survived it before, so I guess it’s possible. Death from accidents most often occur due to a series of unlikely events. I still think that it was the barb to the heart that would have killed him either way. The fact that he pulled it out was not the cause of death.

I agree Speedy.

Dropbear said:

yeh pulse is not in CPR training anymore.. if they’re not breathing, then commence CPR..

Seems weird.

With regard to snakebite, this was a sign in an office environment. So probably scorpions are the bigger issue.

Emergency workers are called to a car upside down and wedged into a tree. Scene reeks of petrol from the split tank. How do they go to get rid if that before cutting? Douse it all in lots and lots of water from the fire appliances and keep the water running whilst sparks are flying?

AwesomeO said:

Emergency workers are called to a car upside down and wedged into a tree. Scene reeks of petrol from the split tank. How do they go to get rid if that before cutting? Douse it all in lots and lots of water from the fire appliances and keep the water running whilst sparks are flying?

pretty much, lay foam down as well.

then use hydraulic cutters to reduce the risk of sparking

AwesomeO said:

Emergency workers are called to a car upside down and wedged into a tree. Scene reeks of petrol from the split tank. How do they go to get rid if that before cutting? Douse it all in lots and lots of water from the fire appliances and keep the water running whilst sparks are flying?

Under normal circumstances, everything we use is intrinsically safe. The battery is disconnected to reduce any risk of sparks from the car, but we would not lay down foam because it’s (1) very slippery, which is dangerous, (2) time wasting and (3) you don’t want that or anything else getting into the patient’s wound/s.

We wear protective clothing that doesn’t burn, and * have a Firey standing 5m behind the tool operator with a hose pointed at him/her, ready to fire water at the rescuer/s if anything goes bang.

*on the extremely rare occasions when the Fireys know what they’re doing.

(4) It destroys evidence.