What does this mean, as in Beethoven’s Symphony 5 in C Minor?
pesce.del.giorno said:
What does this mean, as in Beethoven’s Symphony 5 in C Minor?
It is the key the symphony is in as in difference to being in C major.
That much I understood, but what does it mean to say the symphony is “in” this key?
pesce.del.giorno said:
That much I understood, but what does it mean to say the symphony is “in” this key?
Minor keys tend to be more melancholic. If he’d wanted to write a different meaning into it he would have used a major key.
pesce.del.giorno said:
That much I understood, but what does it mean to say the symphony is “in” this key?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_%28music%29
this might help pdg.
http://musingsofaministerswife.com/2011/10/what-does-it-mean-to-play-in-the-key-of-c/
i have no idea what it is on about but seems a straightforward explanation.
Ah, thanks for that.
Does this mean that the symphony, all 4 movements or whatever, have to be confined to this key?
roughbarked said:
pesce.del.giorno said:
That much I understood, but what does it mean to say the symphony is “in” this key?
All the chords are in harmony with the key of C minor. If it was A minor the chords would be slightly different.
Is the composer allowed to change keys part way through a movement?
seems they can change
http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/6445/what-does-it-mean-to-write-a-song-in-a-certain-key
pesce.del.giorno said:
What does this mean, as in Beethoven’s Symphony 5 in C Minor?
The scale (in this instance C Minor) sets the
C above
C above
pesce.del.giorno said:
Ah, thanks for that.
Does this mean that the symphony, all 4 movements or whatever, have to be confined to this key?
No, it’s just the main key used in the work. Music from Beethoven’s era typically jumped from minor to major key passages quite often in any given movement.
Fish, the BBC did a series of programmes called Key Matters, in which they discuss the different keys, what they mean, and how they influence the mood and tone of the music written in those keys. You can hear some of it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tw55v/episodes/player
Pesce,
Music notes are notated at A, B, C, D, E, F, G , then the sequence starts again.
The “key of C major” starts at C and ends up at “C”. So to play the “scale” of C Major on a piano, you would play C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. These are all white keys. On a piano, to play something entirely in the key of C major, you would never use any of the black keys. It would sound funny and “off key” if you did.
A “minor key” has the third note in the “scale” lowered by one note (a semi tone). So the scale of C minor would be C, D, E flat (drop E down one note to the black key) F, G, A, B, C. So something in the “key of C Minor would use only those notes, with just one black key. No others. ( 6 white keys and just one black key per octave). “Minor keys” sounds sorta sad. Like something you’d play at a funeral. “Major keys” are more “happy”. An “octave” is a series of 8 notes that gets repeated as you go higher or lower up and down the keys.
For another “key”, say “key of D”, you would start the scale on the piano at “D”, and the same separation of notes as “C”. So it would be D, E, F sharp (back key), G, A, B, C sharp (another black key) D. So if your music was in the “key of D”, then only those keys and notes would be used. (some white keys and only those two black keys and no others).
There are some technical exceptions to these rules, however the “key” of a tune determines which notes you can and can’t use.
There is mathematics galore in music. An “octave” will be exactly double the frequency of the lower note to the higher note of the octave and so on. with multiples or/divisions of frequencies of the note. Intermediate notes of a “key” scale are multiples of divisors of the “key “ note (say C) that produce the harmonics “or pleasing notes” rather than grinding “off tune” notes that would NOT be in the relevant “key”.
Why some classical composers chose particular “keys”, is that they desired a certain range of notes, or maybe an opera singer’s range had to fit. There’s really nothing wrong with playing something written in “C minor”, and play it in “D minor”. You would just transpose every note up one key on the piano, and use the key next to the original one instead.. It would sound the same, just a little bit higher in pitch.
good explanation woodie. i don’t understand music but from my links and what you posted it agrees with what i thought keys were.
ChrispenEvan said:
good explanation woodie. i don’t understand music but from my links and what you posted it agrees with what i thought keys were.
I think it’s a little confusing for musical newbies. Maybe some further explanation is required just after:
The “key of C major” starts at C and ends up at “C”. So to play the “scale” of C Major on a piano, you would play C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. These are all white keys. On a piano, to play something entirely in the key of C major, you would never use any of the black keys. It would sound funny and “off key” if you did.
Perhaps explain what a semitone is exactly and why it is that we can play C major scale using all white keys on a piano. Which white keys are whole notes apart and which ones aren’t etc. Just sayin’ :)
now i’m confused again.
;-)
JudgeMental said:
now i’m confused again.;-)
Which is why I didn’t try to explain the rest of what I think I “know”. My musical understanding and terminology are not in harmony ;)
Speedy said:
Perhaps explain what a semitone is exactly and why it is that we can play C major scale using all white keys on a piano. Which white keys are whole notes apart and which ones aren’t etc. Just sayin’ :)
Without writing a thesis on the thing…….
a “tone” is a full note, and “semi-tone” is 1/2 a note. On a piano keyboard, a semi tone is the key right next to each other. This can be a black key next to a white key, or sometimes a white key (where there is no black key in between). So one note at a time, is a “semi tone”.A scale (of 8 notes) is between one octave and another. (the notes at either end of a “scale” sound exactly the same, but one is higher (exactly twice the frequency) so they harmonise together perfectly. So playing C on the keyboard, the next C key along is twice the frequency.
A “key” or “scale” in ALL “major key” goes……. Tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone, semi tone….. repeat…… ALWAYS has this formula, no mater what note you start with. Start with D (“Key of D”) and use the same formula of tone, tone semi-tone etc….. and you have the notes you can use for a composition in “D major”.
So music in a particular “key” will have notes based on the above formula in it, when starting from the base “key” (say C). You will not hear or see in the music, any other notes that do not conform to this formula. (again, technical exceptions can apply).
We started with “C Major”. Now let’s move up a semi-tome to “C Sharp major” A “sharp” is the next black key up, or a “flat” is the next black key down). and apply the “scale” or “key” formula……. tone, tone, semi-tone etc. On a piano keyboard you will see that you end up with all the black keys, and just two white keys to use in your musical composition for the “key of C sharp major”
Now don’t get me to explain the whys and whatnots that C Sharp major is the same as D Flat major!!!!!
So if you look at Paganini’s Rhapsody in C sharp, (or whatever) it will have the exact same notes as Rhapsody in D flat. Well, the sheet music will look very different, but the exact same keys on the piano will be played.
Different sheet music, different key, yet the same keys played on the piano……. I’ll leave that one to you, speedy.So music in a particular “key” will have notes based on the above formula in it, when starting from the base “key” (say C). You will not hear or see in the music, any other notes that do not conform to this formula. (again, technical exceptions can apply).’…………………………… or the composer is a complete nutter……
…. and another rule of music, is always…… always….. the last note in any song, tune, symphony….. all music, is the same note as the “key” it is written in.
eg. Mary had a little lamb……… fleece was white as snow. “what ever note you sing “snow” (or play on a musical instrument) will be the “key” the rest of the composition is in. (ie, uses a selection of notes as previously explained as being the “key”)
A piano keyboard may help follow the above.
Woodie said:
Now don’t get me to explain the whys and whatnots that C Sharp major is the same as D Flat major!!!!!
Piker ;)
Woodie said:
Different sheet music, different key, yet the same keys played on the piano……. I’ll leave that one to you, speedy.
That would be a mistake. I have clearly demonstrated already that I am good at muddling people up.
FWIW, most of what you have explained is at the upper limit of my musical knowledge :)
Speedy said:
That would be a mistake. I have clearly demonstrated already that I am good at muddling people up.
FWIW, most of what you have explained is at the upper limit of my musical knowledge :)
Ahhh…. then there’s chords using key modulation within a composition based on the arpeggio of the primary key. (more associated with the rythym, rather than the melody).
Then there’s always the major and minor 7ths.
7th are again, accompaniment chords. a 7th is a semitone out at the top of the scale or chord.. ie. C to B (not C) in the chord/arpeggio.
Just think of “Getting to Know You” (My Fair Lady). The “you” is accompanied by a 7th. If, played in the key of “C major” the first 4 notes are the chord” of “C”. C, E, G, C, the fifth, is a semitone down from C. ie. B. so the accompanying chord associated with “you” would be C E G B. known as a “major 7th”.
FMD I can waffle on……………………
I’m sure our Paryone will correct me on some of this.
Anyway the “theory” of how music is constructed and it’s rules can be fascinating, especially the mathematics that’s involved in it all, to do with note length, bar count, and note frequencies and multiples thereof. It’s not just a matter of pressing random keys on an instruments and hope for the best. There are very specific rules that must be adhered to, if you are going to get a decent melody/tune rather that something that sounds like a dog vomiting.
Unless, of course, you wish to write The Dog’s Vomit Symphony in F flat minor.
.
You’re doing OK Woodie :)
We have actually been through all this key business for pesce before, so hopefully he’s getting the picture.
Other pesce music threads:
http://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/?main=http%3A//tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/topics/5140/
http://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/?main=http%3A//tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/topics/5250/
Woodie said:
Anyway the “theory” of how music is constructed and it’s rules can be fascinating, especially the mathematics that’s involved in it all, to do with note length, bar count, and note frequencies and multiples thereof. It’s not just a matter of pressing random keys on an instruments and hope for the best. There are very specific rules that must be adhered to, if you are going to get a decent melody/tune rather that something that sounds like a dog vomiting.
Unless, of course, you wish to write The Dog’s Vomit Symphony in F flat minor.
I know it can get very technical very quickly. I once read a quarter of Imogen Holst’s An ABC of Music, but had to stop there as my head was about to explode.
Bubblecar said:
You’re doing OK Woodie :)We have actually been through all this key business for pesce before, so hopefully he’s getting the picture.
I thought that was the case too. I must admit though, that despite reading about keys many times, I too could not grasp what it was all about.
It was only when I asked Little Speedy’s piano tutor to explain it to me (and she was able to demonstrate it on the piano) that I finally understood. Or at least I think I do :)
Speedy said:
Bubblecar said:
You’re doing OK Woodie :)We have actually been through all this key business for pesce before, so hopefully he’s getting the picture.
I thought that was the case too. I must admit though, that despite reading about keys many times, I too could not grasp what it was all about.
It was only when I asked Little Speedy’s piano tutor to explain it to me (and she was able to demonstrate it on the piano) that I finally understood. Or at least I think I do :)
It’s much easier to demonstrate on a musical instrument than with handwaving :)
Bubblecar said:
Speedy said:
Bubblecar said:
You’re doing OK Woodie :)We have actually been through all this key business for pesce before, so hopefully he’s getting the picture.
I thought that was the case too. I must admit though, that despite reading about keys many times, I too could not grasp what it was all about.
It was only when I asked Little Speedy’s piano tutor to explain it to me (and she was able to demonstrate it on the piano) that I finally understood. Or at least I think I do :)
It’s much easier to demonstrate on a musical instrument than with handwaving :)
What if the musical instrument is a theremin?
The Rev Dodgson said:
What if the musical instrument is a theremin?
Are you a thereminist? Would you be interested in bringing back sci-metal(the only true metal genre)?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
Speedy said:I thought that was the case too. I must admit though, that despite reading about keys many times, I too could not grasp what it was all about.
It was only when I asked Little Speedy’s piano tutor to explain it to me (and she was able to demonstrate it on the piano) that I finally understood. Or at least I think I do :)
It’s much easier to demonstrate on a musical instrument than with handwaving :)
What if the musical instrument is a theremin?
Ha, well spotted.
Woodie said:
Anyway the “theory” of how music is constructed and it’s rules can be fascinating, especially the mathematics that’s involved in it all … note frequencies and multiples thereof.
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html
I think what pesce is driving at is that most instruments especially strings have their own strong/preferred keys.
See http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/15221/whats-the-point-of-keys-other-than-c-and-am