Andrew Forrest calls for harvesting of rivers, underground aquifers to droughtproof agricultural areas

Iron ore billionaire Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest has a dream, and like most things he’s tackled in his business life, it is big.

Mr Forrest wants to droughtproof Australia.

“Everything I know starts with a dream, and the dream I want to share with you is an Australia which does not fear lack of water,” he told a conference in Canberra last week.

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if they can’t harvest the existing rainfall in things such as dams we’re boned

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

> Mr Forrest’s plan is to harvest 5,000 gigalitres of water from underground aquifers and rivers to droughtproof existing agricultural areas

Too late for the Murray-Darling. Far more than 50% (I can’t off-hand remember the exact percentage) of the underground water in the Murray-Darling basin is already being harvested for agriculture.

This is starting to be implemented in SE Qld, in the past ten years or so.

Please, please implement this for the Hunter River through Newcastle. Only a piddling tiny fraction of the underground water beneath the Hunter and its tributaries is being used for anything.

Do we have that much water near to or in the right places, that is not already developed?

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

I was talking about the ocean ones, I presumed possibly foolishly, that is where the desal plants would be.

AwesomeO said:

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

I was talking about the ocean ones, I presumed possibly foolishly, that is where the desal plants would be.

there is plenty of saline groundwater

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

location in the ocean of the outlets is also an issue. You can’t just dump highly saline water into the ocean and expect it to have no effect.

ref – the SA desal plant, whyalla outflow and cuttlefish

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

diddly-squat said:

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

I was talking about the ocean ones, I presumed possibly foolishly, that is where the desal plants would be.

there is plenty of saline groundwater

Whereabouts mostly, in the deserts?

AwesomeO said:

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

I was talking about the ocean ones, I presumed possibly foolishly, that is where the desal plants would be.

I think you could have a solar powered desal plant without too much problem – only issue would be the cost of the water…

stumpy_seahorse said:

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

location in the ocean of the outlets is also an issue. You can’t just dump highly saline water into the ocean and expect it to have no effect.

ref – the SA desal plant, whyalla outflow and cuttlefish

Is it highly saline? There is an ocean to return it to, and the ocean itself has salinity in layers of differing salinity. By that I mean, if you have an ocean of water available to process why process to the point it becomes highly saline, you are after all, not in the business of making salt but fresh water.

it isn’t just the salinity of the returned water. it is also the heat, alkalinity and any metals that have been picked up during treatment that can be a problem.

stumpy_seahorse said:

diddly-squat said:

AwesomeO said:

Apart from wage and electricity costs is there a reason why the desalination plants are not operating. They could at least be putting some water into the system. Otherwise machinery going idle breaks down and expertiese is lost.

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

location in the ocean of the outlets is also an issue. You can’t just dump highly saline water into the ocean and expect it to have no effect.

ref – the SA desal plant, whyalla outflow and cuttlefish

there are a number of ways to dilute and diffuse the rejects

• it is also the heat, alkalinity and any metals that have been picked up during treatment that can be a problem.

The heat can be exchanged with the incoming water and the metals were there to begin with…

AwesomeO said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

diddly-squat said:

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

location in the ocean of the outlets is also an issue. You can’t just dump highly saline water into the ocean and expect it to have no effect.

ref – the SA desal plant, whyalla outflow and cuttlefish

Is it highly saline? There is an ocean to return it to, and the ocean itself has salinity in layers of differing salinity. By that I mean, if you have an ocean of water available to process why process to the point it becomes highly saline, you are after all, not in the business of making salt but fresh water.

much higher salinity than ocean water (and the example given is estuarine water, so already a high salinity area wrt ocean water)

the metals can be from the equipment, and those are what i refer to.

• the metals can be from the equipment, and those are what i refer to.

For metals from the equipment to be a problem I would think you’d be dissolving a desal plant in quick time…

diddly-squat said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

diddly-squat said:

one of problems of desal plants is what you do with the highly-saline byproduct… if you are by the ocean then it’s not a drama but if you are inland you need evaporation ponds coupled with a disposal program.

location in the ocean of the outlets is also an issue. You can’t just dump highly saline water into the ocean and expect it to have no effect.

ref – the SA desal plant, whyalla outflow and cuttlefish

there are a number of ways to dilute and diffuse the rejects

perhaps you should contact them. It is still not in use until they can figure out the solution.

diluting it kinda defeats the purpose of desalinating water…

• diluting it kinda defeats the purpose of desalinating water…

Dilute it with saline water…

just going by what studies say.

furious said:

• diluting it kinda defeats the purpose of desalinating water…

Dilute it with saline water…

which is what is happening when they flow it out into the ocean.. the only way to have an effect is to dilute it with a lower salinity water, which needs the desal plant to produce… so you’re going nowhere.

a desal plant with a long outflow pipe off the bottom of WA would be a start, but desal plants are built where water is needed, not where they will have a lower affect on surroundings

• just going by what studies say.

Studies by those opposed to desal plants?

• the only way to have an effect is to dilute it with a lower salinity water

Or with greater quantities of medium salinity water…

surely you know me and what i post by now.

furious said:

• the only way to have an effect is to dilute it with a lower salinity water

Or with greater quantities of medium salinity water…

like adding it to a large body of saline water?

stumpy_seahorse said:

furious said:

• diluting it kinda defeats the purpose of desalinating water…

Dilute it with saline water…

which is what is happening when they flow it out into the ocean.. the only way to have an effect is to dilute it with a lower salinity water, which needs the desal plant to produce… so you’re going nowhere.

a desal plant with a long outflow pipe off the bottom of WA would be a start, but desal plants are built where water is needed, not where they will have a lower affect on surroundings

I thinks it is a question of ocean currents and mixing and dispersing the saline outflow with the sea water. Harder to achieve for Whyalla with it being near the head of Spencer Gulf, which is sort of funnel-shaped.

This is probably a naive question, but can’t they extract the salt from the waste water for sale as table salt?

• This is probably a naive question, but can’t they extract the salt from the waste water for sale as table salt?

Seen a thing on the TV years ago about some mob sucking up saline ground water and evaporating it for the salt whilst simultaneously reclaiming good land for cropping or something…

btm said:

This is probably a naive question, but can’t they extract the salt from the waste water for sale as table salt?

Most desal plants use the reverse osmosis process. With this only a fairly small percentage of the sea water intake is converted to fresh water. The vast majority of it simply passes through the system and returns back out to sea, only slightly more salty than it started.

Perhaps if you used some other system you’d have much more saline outflow.

a dam if high enough would provide water pressure to irrigate fields

water on itself is nice but water pressure for free is better

if you did it right it would mean that farmers wouldn’t need to run pumps to irrigate fields

wookiemeister said:

a dam if high enough would provide water pressure to irrigate fields

water on itself is nice but water pressure for free is better

if you did it right it would mean that farmers wouldn’t need to run pumps to irrigate fields

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

stumpy_seahorse said:

furious said:

• diluting it kinda defeats the purpose of desalinating water…

Dilute it with saline water…

which is what is happening when they flow it out into the ocean.. the only way to have an effect is to dilute it with a lower salinity water, which needs the desal plant to produce… so you’re going nowhere.

a desal plant with a long outflow pipe off the bottom of WA would be a start, but desal plants are built where water is needed, not where they will have a lower affect on surroundings

of course tides and currents are going to have to be considered…

the whole thing with emerging technology is that you might not need these vast areas to irrigate after all

a more automated cropping system could use water more wisely

sugar cane is a devil for water use, they flood the furrows and the water runs down it, some farmers use a special moving sprinkler system but very few and certainly not for cane from everything I’ve seen.

growing cane for fuel is a waste of time and money , emerging technology will see more electric cars on the road, joe average only needs an electric car not a petrol car – power that car with solar during the day and its a win win

if you could have electric trucks transporting food around that would bring food prices down considerably – its the diesel used to transport all this food

its all very well talking about irrigating all this land but the fuel use to just go and get it would be enormous

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

a dam if high enough would provide water pressure to irrigate fields

water on itself is nice but water pressure for free is better

if you did it right it would mean that farmers wouldn’t need to run pumps to irrigate fields

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

just put your crop growing areas downstream of large dams instead

the “outback” doesn’t have the infrastructure to do what some geezer who sits in an office all day thinks could be done

the initial investment would be too great

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

a dam if high enough would provide water pressure to irrigate fields

water on itself is nice but water pressure for free is better

if you did it right it would mean that farmers wouldn’t need to run pumps to irrigate fields

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

that, and increasing the water head doesn’t come for free

using desal water for irrigation would be stupid.

wookiemeister said:

the whole thing with emerging technology is that you might not need these vast areas to irrigate after all

a more automated cropping system could use water more wisely

sugar cane is a devil for water use, they flood the furrows and the water runs down it, some farmers use a special moving sprinkler system but very few and certainly not for cane from everything I’ve seen.

growing cane for fuel is a waste of time and money , emerging technology will see more electric cars on the road, joe average only needs an electric car not a petrol car – power that car with solar during the day and its a win win

if you could have electric trucks transporting food around that would bring food prices down considerably – its the diesel used to transport all this food

its all very well talking about irrigating all this land but the fuel use to just go and get it would be enormous

a standar 14 span rotating pivot irrigator costs $1000 per revolution to irrigate a crop

the key to any advancement an any civilisation is cheap energy

the romans had slaves

the british had coal

solar power lots of it providing lots of cheap power for decades with little to no maintenance is the key

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

a dam if high enough would provide water pressure to irrigate fields

water on itself is nice but water pressure for free is better

if you did it right it would mean that farmers wouldn’t need to run pumps to irrigate fields

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

just put your crop growing areas downstream of large dams instead

the “outback” doesn’t have the infrastructure to do what some geezer who sits in an office all day thinks could be done

the initial investment would be too great

problem with that is that there are large urban communities downstream of most large dams (except the Ord of course)

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

a dam if high enough would provide water pressure to irrigate fields

water on itself is nice but water pressure for free is better

if you did it right it would mean that farmers wouldn’t need to run pumps to irrigate fields

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

that, and increasing the water head doesn’t come for free

the investment in a dam is quite low compared to the benefits for decades or centuries afterwards

dams are seen as environmental vandalism these days.

wookiemeister said:

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

that, and increasing the water head doesn’t come for free

the investment in a dam is quite low compared to the benefits for decades or centuries afterwards

so now all we need are large, unpopulated, catchments in the vicinity of prime agricultural land… thanks for the heads up…

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

the whole thing with emerging technology is that you might not need these vast areas to irrigate after all

a more automated cropping system could use water more wisely

sugar cane is a devil for water use, they flood the furrows and the water runs down it, some farmers use a special moving sprinkler system but very few and certainly not for cane from everything I’ve seen.

growing cane for fuel is a waste of time and money , emerging technology will see more electric cars on the road, joe average only needs an electric car not a petrol car – power that car with solar during the day and its a win win

if you could have electric trucks transporting food around that would bring food prices down considerably – its the diesel used to transport all this food

its all very well talking about irrigating all this land but the fuel use to just go and get it would be enormous

a standar 14 span rotating pivot irrigator costs $1000 per revolution to irrigate a crop

They should have gone linear then, hours of endless back and forth without one singly rotation completed, therefore no fees.

:P

diddly-squat said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

The most distinguishing feature of the Australian outback is its vast… flatness.

just put your crop growing areas downstream of large dams instead

the “outback” doesn’t have the infrastructure to do what some geezer who sits in an office all day thinks could be done

the initial investment would be too great

problem with that is that there are large urban communities downstream of most large dams (except the Ord of course)

not all queensland has a few dams where this is not the case

Burdekin dam provides water to an entire irrigation area but its currently being run very inefficiently, they are still using the river to transport the water instead of large pipes or dedicated canals

using the river could involve significant losses up to 30 percent

diddly-squat said:

wookiemeister said:

diddly-squat said:

that, and increasing the water head doesn’t come for free

the investment in a dam is quite low compared to the benefits for decades or centuries afterwards

so now all we need are large, unpopulated, catchments in the vicinity of prime agricultural land… thanks for the heads up…

or just move the people away from these areas down stream and discourage population growth in areas that are better used for agricultural

wookiemeister said:

diddly-squat said:

wookiemeister said:

the investment in a dam is quite low compared to the benefits for decades or centuries afterwards

so now all we need are large, unpopulated, catchments in the vicinity of prime agricultural land… thanks for the heads up…

or just move the people away from these areas down stream and discourage population growth in areas that are better used for agricultural

Might adversely affect residential property prices.

wookiemeister said:

diddly-squat said:

wookiemeister said:

the investment in a dam is quite low compared to the benefits for decades or centuries afterwards

so now all we need are large, unpopulated, catchments in the vicinity of prime agricultural land… thanks for the heads up…

or just move the people away from these areas down stream and discourage population growth in areas that are better used for agricultural

wow… you should be a town planner…

diddly-squat said:

wookiemeister said:

diddly-squat said:

so now all we need are large, unpopulated, catchments in the vicinity of prime agricultural land… thanks for the heads up…

or just move the people away from these areas down stream and discourage population growth in areas that are better used for agricultural

wow… you should be a town planner…

you’d just restrict all further housing estates in those areas

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

I’m sure someone does

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

the ones near here are RO

just use rain water

no salt in the first place

the fremen didn’t seem to have any problem harvesting water and storing it

in carmens vicinity you have tinaroo dam for example

up high in the mountains

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

or perhaps go low tech and have a greenhouse set up where salt water evaporates into the air and is then condensed onto cold pipes from outside water

concentrating the suns energy in this case makes things more complicated – a large greenhouse is low cost, low tech

who knows you might even grow something in those greenhouses

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

Would still end up with the same problem of large volumes of salt water needing to be disposed of.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

Would still end up with the same problem of large volumes of salt water needing to be disposed of.

If inland, there’s bound to be an existing salt pan around somewhere. Just let it drain off into that.

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

party_pants said:

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

Would still end up with the same problem of large volumes of salt water needing to be disposed of.

If inland, there’s bound to be an existing salt pan around somewhere. Just let it drain off into that.

not necessarily… a lot of the coal mines in central Qld have to deal with large quantities of saline water that they can’t discharge off site.

they use a combination of RO plants and evaporator systems followed by burial

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

party_pants said:

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

Would still end up with the same problem of large volumes of salt water needing to be disposed of.

If inland, there’s bound to be an existing salt pan around somewhere. Just let it drain off into that.

How many thousands of litres per day? And what if you decide your water was best used in areas that didn’t have a salt problem?

Carmen_Sandiego said:

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Would still end up with the same problem of large volumes of salt water needing to be disposed of.

If inland, there’s bound to be an existing salt pan around somewhere. Just let it drain off into that.

How many thousands of litres per day? And what if you decide your water was best used in areas that didn’t have a salt problem?

Dunno the details. Just musing. In terms of salt-pans, there’s plenty of bigguns where you can’t see the other end for the horizon.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

Desalination of groundwater? Does anybody understand how the desalination process works?

Apparently they don’t.

party_pants said:

Carmen_Sandiego said:

party_pants said:

At least three of us were thinking about using concentrated solar heat to boil saline water into steam, rather than using reverse osmosis.

Would still end up with the same problem of large volumes of salt water needing to be disposed of.

If inland, there’s bound to be an existing salt pan around somewhere. Just let it drain off into that.

Ho ho.

wookiemeister said:

if they can’t harvest the existing rainfall in things such as dams we’re boned

If we cannot stop the world ripping Australia off, we are boned..

Well, you’d desalinate the salty water in a spot most convenient, and then pumpify the fresh water to where it was needed.

party_pants said:

Well, you’d desalinate the salty water in a spot most convenient, and then pumpify the fresh water to where it was needed.

One can see that environmental and engineering sciences are not your forté.

Twiggy can dream all he likes. He can throw all the money at it he likes. It simply is not going to happen. Supplying food and water to the workforce he’d require is at this moment, impossible.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Well, you’d desalinate the salty water in a spot most convenient, and then pumpify the fresh water to where it was needed.

One can see that environmental and engineering sciences are not your forté.

Well yeah, letting salty water drain into a dry and already lifeless salt-pan is just going to cause environmental hell for all of the seven lizards that live there.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Well, you’d desalinate the salty water in a spot most convenient, and then pumpify the fresh water to where it was needed.

One can see that environmental and engineering sciences are not your forté.

Well yeah, letting salty water drain into a dry and already lifeless salt-pan is just going to cause environmental hell for all of the seven lizards that live there.

hmmm.

GeoffD is sorely missed around here.

“So many explorers met their own deaths yet it was not in front of them but beneath their feet,” Mr Forrest said.

It is that life saving underground water he plans to harvest and put to work.

>>>>>>>>

Most of that water was undrinkable.

One cannot expect a rapist to know much about the quality of virginity.

There isn’t an irrigator in Australia who wouldn’t prefer to have the water fall from the sky a little more regularly than to get all the water he needed from the rivers.

If we were ever going to harvest the aquifers then we should have left the surface more pristine.

Boris said:

just going by what studies say.

Studies have been going on since we first arrived. This isn’t a new issue. If the even some of the answers could have been found then we’d have been working on finding the remainder. We chose to go in other directions and reaped short term benefits which are now returning to bite us on the bum.

The limits of growth were known long ago.