Date: 12/04/2015 03:55:28
From: dv
ID: 707168
Subject: Fixing Reptilia

Linnæus and Laurenti and other 18th century taxonomists, as we now call them, had not much to go on other than morphology and behaviour of existing critters. Fossils were known but the field of systematic palaeontology could not even be said to be in its infancy, and DNA would not even be discovered for another 200 years.

The calls they made were reasonable given what was known at the time and some of the taxa they described are still known and basically unchanged. Some have gone by the wayside as more has been learnt, and through the 20th and 21st centuries there were major reconfigurations of the taxa as the molecular and fossil evidence rolled in. In second half of the 20th century, Huxley and Hennig and others advocated a strict cladistic approach, by which any taxon should be monophylic: that is, any taxon should consist of a crown and all its descendants. In some cases the crown may be something not specifically known from the fossil record but that can be referred to in abstract: eg you could define it as the most recent common ancestor of, say, coelacanths and lungfish. For comparison, paraphylic taxa involve part of the descent from an ancestor but with some excluded groups. Polyphylic groups include parts of multiple chains of descent.

The cladistic approach was an important influence over the past half-century. There are now no polyphylic vertebrate taxa and a scarce few paraphylic taxa.

The one major paraphylic taxon among the vertebrates remaining that still gets a bit of play: a lot of refs will still list the surviving classes of tetrapods as Class Amphibia, Class Mammalia, Class Aves, and Class Reptilia. (Note: Amniota is a clade containing mammals, birds, reptiles.)

But strictly, Reptilia is bunk from a cladistic understanding. Even from morphology, a close look at crocodiles indicates that they are more closely related to birds than they are to turtles, tuatara, snakes, or lizards, and fossil evidence and molecular analysis backs this up to the point where it is not disputed. There is therefore no clade that can contain turtles AND crocodiles, but not birds.

There is also a minor issue related to certain extinct ancestors of the modern mammals: Reptilia includes early therapsids but not their descendants the modern mammals, so that is also a cladistic no-no.

How to deal with this is a matter of dispute and various ideas have come up, among them:

1/ Do nothing, just leave Reptilia as it is for old time’s sake

2/ A phylocode-friendly idea to split off those early “mammal-like reptiles”, and call Reptilia all the descendants of the most recent common ancestor of turtles and crocodiles. So this would include snakes, lizards, tuatara, turtles, crocodiles … AND birds.

3/ Just forget about Reptilia: stop talking about it altogether, it is a classical relic of a term. Amniota would be divided into Synapsida (which includes mammals and the mammal-like “reptiles”), and Sauropsida. Sauropsida is divided into Anapsida (which has turtles and such) and Diapsida. Diapsida is Lepidosauromorpha (including lizards, snakes, tuatara), Archosauromorpha (includes crocodiles and birds) and some other extinct stuff.

The removal of Reptilia from formal literature would not change the fact that “reptiles” would remain a word used in ordinary life. Class Pisces was ditched over a hundred years ago once it was understood not to be a meaningful group from a phylogenic point of view, but of course people still talk about “fish”. For that matter, people use terms referring to all kinds of polyphylic groups: “sea creatures”, “rats”, etc.

FTR, the most recent common ancestor of birds and crocodiles lived about 250 million years ago. The most recent common ancestor of crocodiles and turtles lived about 310 million years ago.

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Date: 12/04/2015 09:49:43
From: Arts
ID: 707189
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Interesting side note.. Carl Linnaeus changed his name to reflect his binomial system of nomenclature(he is known as ‘the father of modern ecology) His name was Carl Von Linne and he officially changed it to Carolus Linnaeus … that’s dedication for you.

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Date: 12/04/2015 09:54:12
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 707190
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Arts said:


Interesting side note.. Carl Linnaeus changed his name to reflect his binomial system of nomenclature(he is known as ‘the father of modern ecology) His name was Carl Von Linne and he officially changed it to Carolus Linnaeus … that’s dedication for you.

or nutter.

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Date: 12/04/2015 09:59:43
From: Arts
ID: 707191
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Peak Warming Man said:


Arts said:

Interesting side note.. Carl Linnaeus changed his name to reflect his binomial system of nomenclature(he is known as ‘the father of modern ecology) His name was Carl Von Linne and he officially changed it to Carolus Linnaeus … that’s dedication for you.

or nutter.

to be a scientist in the 1700’s you had to be a little nuts…

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Date: 12/04/2015 10:43:51
From: dv
ID: 707212
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Arts said:


Peak Warming Man said:

Arts said:

Interesting side note.. Carl Linnaeus changed his name to reflect his binomial system of nomenclature(he is known as ‘the father of modern ecology) His name was Carl Von Linne and he officially changed it to Carolus Linnaeus … that’s dedication for you.

or nutter.

to be a scientist in the 1700’s you had to be a little nuts…


Hmmm, it might have made more sense to call himself Linnaeus carolus then, as the former is his more generic name and the latter is his personal name.

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Date: 12/04/2015 13:30:13
From: wookiemeister
ID: 707305
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Peak Warming Man said:


Arts said:

Interesting side note.. Carl Linnaeus changed his name to reflect his binomial system of nomenclature(he is known as ‘the father of modern ecology) His name was Carl Von Linne and he officially changed it to Carolus Linnaeus … that’s dedication for you.

or nutter.


aka

a man of vision

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:00:58
From: Bubblecar
ID: 707403
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

I can see the problem and I’m happy to let the relevant eggheads revise the formal terminology. But in everyday usage by common people, “reptile”, “reptilian” etc. are pleasing words that will be around for a long time yet.

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:02:01
From: OCDC
ID: 707404
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

dv said:

3/ Just forget about Reptilia: stop talking about it altogether, it is a classical relic of a term. Amniota would be divided into Synapsida (which includes mammals and the mammal-like “reptiles”), and Sauropsida. Sauropsida is divided into Anapsida (which has turtles and such) and Diapsida. Diapsida is Lepidosauromorpha (including lizards, snakes, tuatara), Archosauromorpha (includes crocodiles and birds) and some other extinct stuff.
This.

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:05:24
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 707405
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Bubblecar said:


I can see the problem and I’m happy to let the relevant eggheads revise the formal terminology. But in everyday usage by common people, “reptile”, “reptilian” etc. are pleasing words that will be around for a long time yet.

Like when you say ‘the Queens a reptilian’ and what-not?

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:08:39
From: Bubblecar
ID: 707407
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Witty Rejoinder said:


Bubblecar said:

I can see the problem and I’m happy to let the relevant eggheads revise the formal terminology. But in everyday usage by common people, “reptile”, “reptilian” etc. are pleasing words that will be around for a long time yet.

Like when you say ‘the Queens a reptilian’ and what-not?

Or “he was a shifty-looking fellow with cold, reptilian features” etc.

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:10:13
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 707408
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Bubblecar said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

I can see the problem and I’m happy to let the relevant eggheads revise the formal terminology. But in everyday usage by common people, “reptile”, “reptilian” etc. are pleasing words that will be around for a long time yet.

Like when you say ‘the Queens a reptilian’ and what-not?

Or “he was a shifty-looking fellow with cold, reptilian features” etc.

And a lean and hungry look.

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:40:42
From: PermeateFree
ID: 707425
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

>>The placement of turtles has historically been highly variable. Classically, turtles were considered to be related to the primitive anapsid reptiles. Molecular work has usually placed turtles within the diapsids. So far three turtle genomes have been sequenced. The results place turtles as a sister clade to the archosaurs, the group that includes crocodiles, dinosaurs, and birds.<<

Plus a whole lot more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:46:34
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 707429
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

dv said:


The one major paraphylic taxon among the vertebrates remaining that still gets a bit of play: a lot of refs will still list Class Reptilia.

But strictly, Reptilia is bunk from a cladistic understanding. Even from morphology, a close look at crocodiles indicates that they are more closely related to birds than they are to turtles, tuatara, snakes, or lizards, and fossil evidence and molecular analysis backs this up to the point where it is not disputed. There is therefore no clade that can contain turtles AND crocodiles, but not birds.

How to deal with this is a matter of dispute and various ideas have come up, among them:

1/ Do nothing, just leave Reptilia as it is for old time’s sake

2/ A phylocode-friendly idea to split off those early “mammal-like reptiles”, and call Reptilia all the descendants of the most recent common ancestor of turtles and crocodiles. So this would include snakes, lizards, tuatara, turtles, crocodiles … AND birds.

3/ Just forget about Reptilia: stop talking about it altogether, it is a classical relic of a term. Amniota would be divided into Synapsida (which includes mammals and the mammal-like “reptiles”), and Sauropsida. Sauropsida is divided into Anapsida (which has turtles and such) and Diapsida. Diapsida is Lepidosauromorpha (including lizards, snakes, tuatara), Archosauromorpha (includes crocodiles and birds) and some other extinct stuff.

The removal of Reptilia from formal literature would not change the fact that “reptiles” would remain a word used in ordinary life. Class Pisces was ditched over a hundred years ago once it was understood not to be a meaningful group from a phylogenic point of view, but of course people still talk about “fish”. For that matter, people use terms referring to all kinds of polyphylic groups: “sea creatures”, “rats”, etc.

I totally agree with the above. I would even put it a bit stronger. The sooner scientists kill off “class “Reptilia” the better so far as I am concerned. A reasonable start would be to replace the current scheme by an earlier system based on the ancestral number of holes in the skull (anapsid – 0, synapsid – 1, diapsid – 2, triapsid – 3 or more). Anapsid includes chelonians (turtles), Synapsid includes mammals, Diapsid includes crocodilia, squamates (snakes & lizards) and “marine reptiles” (plesiosaur, mosasaur etc.), Triapsid includes dinosaurs and pterosaurs.

Using DNA studies the naming system based on the number of holes in the skull is confirmed and becomes more precise. The origin of the supposed Class of “Reptiles” then resolves itself into an evolutionary system. If I remember correctly, the molecular evolutionary system from more primitive to more advanced is:
Amphibians -> Chelonians -> Mammals -> Squamates -> “Marine reptiles” -> Crocodilia -> Pterosaurs -> Dinosaurs -> Birds.

The crocodilia, pterosaurs and dinosaurs all had an interesting common feature, all their earliest ancestors were facultative bipeds, animals that were equally at home on two legs as on four. The chelonians, mammals and squamates all had earliest ancestors that were obligate quadrupeds. The birds had ancestors that had obligate bipeds. So one replacement for “reptilia” would be a division based on the number of legs their distant ancestor walked on.

I strongly dislike calling all the animals whose ancestors were bipeds – “reptiles”. I refuse to call dinosaurs and pterosaurs “reptiles”. I extremely strongly dislike the term “marine reptile” for the mosasaurs, plesiosaurs, pliosaurs and ichthyosaurs, they are far less like the modern marine reptiles, turtles and sea snakes, than mammals are.

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Date: 12/04/2015 17:48:23
From: roughbarked
ID: 707430
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

mollwollfumble said:


dv said:

The one major paraphylic taxon among the vertebrates remaining that still gets a bit of play: a lot of refs will still list Class Reptilia.

But strictly, Reptilia is bunk from a cladistic understanding. Even from morphology, a close look at crocodiles indicates that they are more closely related to birds than they are to turtles, tuatara, snakes, or lizards, and fossil evidence and molecular analysis backs this up to the point where it is not disputed. There is therefore no clade that can contain turtles AND crocodiles, but not birds.

How to deal with this is a matter of dispute and various ideas have come up, among them:

1/ Do nothing, just leave Reptilia as it is for old time’s sake

2/ A phylocode-friendly idea to split off those early “mammal-like reptiles”, and call Reptilia all the descendants of the most recent common ancestor of turtles and crocodiles. So this would include snakes, lizards, tuatara, turtles, crocodiles … AND birds.

3/ Just forget about Reptilia: stop talking about it altogether, it is a classical relic of a term. Amniota would be divided into Synapsida (which includes mammals and the mammal-like “reptiles”), and Sauropsida. Sauropsida is divided into Anapsida (which has turtles and such) and Diapsida. Diapsida is Lepidosauromorpha (including lizards, snakes, tuatara), Archosauromorpha (includes crocodiles and birds) and some other extinct stuff.

The removal of Reptilia from formal literature would not change the fact that “reptiles” would remain a word used in ordinary life. Class Pisces was ditched over a hundred years ago once it was understood not to be a meaningful group from a phylogenic point of view, but of course people still talk about “fish”. For that matter, people use terms referring to all kinds of polyphylic groups: “sea creatures”, “rats”, etc.

I totally agree with the above. I would even put it a bit stronger. The sooner scientists kill off “class “Reptilia” the better so far as I am concerned. A reasonable start would be to replace the current scheme by an earlier system based on the ancestral number of holes in the skull (anapsid – 0, synapsid – 1, diapsid – 2, triapsid – 3 or more). Anapsid includes chelonians (turtles), Synapsid includes mammals, Diapsid includes crocodilia, squamates (snakes & lizards) and “marine reptiles” (plesiosaur, mosasaur etc.), Triapsid includes dinosaurs and pterosaurs.

Using DNA studies the naming system based on the number of holes in the skull is confirmed and becomes more precise. The origin of the supposed Class of “Reptiles” then resolves itself into an evolutionary system. If I remember correctly, the molecular evolutionary system from more primitive to more advanced is:
Amphibians -> Chelonians -> Mammals -> Squamates -> “Marine reptiles” -> Crocodilia -> Pterosaurs -> Dinosaurs -> Birds.

The crocodilia, pterosaurs and dinosaurs all had an interesting common feature, all their earliest ancestors were facultative bipeds, animals that were equally at home on two legs as on four. The chelonians, mammals and squamates all had earliest ancestors that were obligate quadrupeds. The birds had ancestors that had obligate bipeds. So one replacement for “reptilia” would be a division based on the number of legs their distant ancestor walked on.

I strongly dislike calling all the animals whose ancestors were bipeds – “reptiles”. I refuse to call dinosaurs and pterosaurs “reptiles”. I extremely strongly dislike the term “marine reptile” for the mosasaurs, plesiosaurs, pliosaurs and ichthyosaurs, they are far less like the modern marine reptiles, turtles and sea snakes, than mammals are.

All good points.

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Date: 12/04/2015 18:23:44
From: Arts
ID: 707450
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

dv said:


Arts said:

Peak Warming Man said:

or nutter.

to be a scientist in the 1700’s you had to be a little nuts…


Hmmm, it might have made more sense to call himself Linnaeus carolus then, as the former is his more generic name and the latter is his personal name.

he created the system, don’t tell him how to do his job :P

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Date: 17/04/2015 23:48:36
From: dv
ID: 709779
Subject: re: Fixing Reptilia

Amniota’s a nice case study about how major groups separated. Birds and mammals and turtles seems quite different from each other but at the time that the divisions occurred, the events were simple, common speciations.

Amniotes are distinguished by producing eggs with an amnios: a sac that prevents dehydration and allowed eggs to be laid on land. The first amniotes existed about 312 million years ago. Within 10 million years, the amniotes had undergone divergences into the various major groups as we describe them today: but at the time (302 million years ago) they didn’t look like mammals, turtles, birds of course: they only looked about as divergent as, say, the set of modern primates do.

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