Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

bob(from black rock) said:

Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

yes

bob(from black rock) said:

Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

Don’t know, but would imagine they would as they are the junior ABC of maths.

bob(from black rock) said:

Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

Aye, well in my day we had to recite the multiplications backwards in Latin whilst standing on our heads, and if we made a mistake we got a damn good thrashing.

I’m pretty sure kids these days don’t get that.

The Rev Dodgson said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

Aye, well in my day we had to recite the multiplications backwards in Latin whilst standing on our heads, and if we made a mistake we got a damn good thrashing.

I’m pretty sure kids these days don’t get that.

That’s why we remember them.

diddly-squat said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

yes

But note that while there is still some rote learning involved, the curriculum is more focused on teaching children problem solving strategies.

for instance, at the primary school my children attend(ed) they get the kids to rote learn a series of ‘sight words’ – these are words that they should be able to loo at and instantly identify. They are a combination of a common words and words that tend to be the exception rather than the rule when it comes to sounding them out. They then teach the kids a series of strategies to sound out and spell other words.

Same goes for maths.

The I times mensa is pointless really, it all starts to happen with the II times mensa.

II x I = II
II x II = IV
II x III = VI
II x IV = VIII

And so forth and so on.

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

Peak Warming Man said:

The I times mensa is pointless really, it all starts to happen with the II times mensa.

II x I = II
II x II = IV
II x III = VI
II x IV = VIII

And so forth and so on.

It’s only a problem when you get multiple menses.

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Anyway they’ve got Moffsoft FreeCalc.

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Without maths or English skills to function at uni, sure.

Can’t even colour between the fn lines. Stifles their creativity

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Without maths or English skills to function at uni, sure.

Have you seen examples of this

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Without maths or English skills to function at uni, sure.

Seriously… as far as I can see, kids leaving school now are fer better prepared for uni than was the case when I left school.

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

How are they better at problem solving? Problems have been solved in the past.

Cymek said:

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Without maths or English skills to function at uni, sure.

Have you seen examples of this

Uni types are constantly bemoaning having to get the “problem solvers” to do bridging courses before they can cope with uni maths

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Without maths or English skills to function at uni, sure.

Seriously… as far as I can see, kids leaving school now are fer better prepared for uni than was the case when I left school.

That’s probably true for social sciences. And bless them

I’ve been doing some uni lecturing for a couple of years, and the biggest problem I find is getting the students to step back and look at what it is they are modelling, rather than any lack of numeracy or literacy.

poikilotherm said:

It’s only a problem when you get multiple menses.

Tell me about it

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Without maths or English skills to function at uni, sure.

Seriously… as far as I can see, kids leaving school now are fer better prepared for uni than was the case when I left school.

That’s probably true for social sciences. And bless them

shrugs

I’m witness at the moment to the teaching methods as well as the content they are in senior school as well as in primary school.

It will undoubtedly give them a better skills and knowledge base leaving school than when I did.

We should also remember that according to old people, educational standards have been in a steady state of decline for at least the last 3000 years.

Ever since people started writing stuff down so kids didn’t learn to memorise any more.

I’ve actually just come back from Grand Parents Day at 5 year old grandson’s school.

I was quite impressed with the amount of number and letter work they do.

They were also encouraged to colour in between the lines.

I’m glad you feel that way Diddly. In so far as my kids were concerned, I found the priority was retaining them to the end of Yr 12, at any cost.

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

Seriously… as far as I can see, kids leaving school now are fer better prepared for uni than was the case when I left school.

That’s probably true for social sciences. And bless them

shrugs

I’m witness at the moment to the teaching methods as well as the content they are in senior school as well as in primary school.

It will undoubtedly give them a better skills and knowledge base leaving school than when I did.

How old are your children?
My two eldest are far smarter academically that I ever was or can hope to be.
I am not privy to the average student as mine were both in accelerated learning in both primary and high school.

The Rev Dodgson said:

We should also remember that according to old people, educational standards have been in a steady state of decline for at least the last 3000 years.

Ever since people started writing stuff down so kids didn’t learn to memorise any more.

+1

I will admit though that some schools may be guilty of teaching kids how to pass high school exams, as opposed to teaching them how to solve problems they may encounter at university.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve been doing some uni lecturing for a couple of years, and the biggest problem I find is getting the students to step back and look at what it is they are modelling, rather than any lack of numeracy or literacy.

People can get too close to their favorite concepts/subjects or they choose to limit their overview, perhaps even unknowingly

Dropbear said:

I’m glad you feel that way Diddly. In so far as my kids were concerned, I found the priority was retaining them to the end of Yr 12, at any cost.

my boys are in Yr 10 now and one of the big things they talk about is understanding your likely pathway and selecting subjects that will best facilitate that pathway. I think there is far more focus on on this these days. When I went to school there was no subject streaming (other than in maths) and little focus on what happens after you leave school.

But then I did go to shitty public school and my boys do attend a private school – so that may have some bearing on outcomes.

The Australian Industry Group welcomes the opportunity to comment on the Review of Australian
Curriculum. Rather than specifically address the terms of reference, this response focuses on
national curriculum issues of particular concern to the Ai Group. These concerns are:
The low levels of literacy of many school graduates
The low levels of numeracy of many school graduates
The decline in participation of STEM related subjects by secondary students

http://www.aigroup.com.au/portal/binary/com.epicentric.contentmanagement.servlet.ContentDeliveryServlet/LIVE_CONTENT/Policy%2520and%2520Representation/Submissions/Education%2520and%2520Training/2014/Ai%2520Group%2520Submission%2520to%2520Australian%2520Curriculum%2520Review.pdf

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

We should also remember that according to old people, educational standards have been in a steady state of decline for at least the last 3000 years.

Ever since people started writing stuff down so kids didn’t learn to memorise any more.

+1

I will admit though that some schools may be guilty of teaching kids how to pass high school exams, as opposed to teaching them how to solve problems they may encounter at university.

Its natural for people to find a better/faster way of doing things

shortcuts

CrazyNeutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve been doing some uni lecturing for a couple of years, and the biggest problem I find is getting the students to step back and look at what it is they are modelling, rather than any lack of numeracy or literacy.

People can get too close to their favorite concepts/subjects or they choose to limit their overview, perhaps even unknowingly

Also ties in with what d-s said about some schools concentrating on teaching them to pass exams, rather than to understand the subject.

Im sure everything’s peachy though :)

“The next series of PISA results were released in December 2013.3
This report revealed that the
reading skills of 15 year olds have slipped backwards over the past decade with Australia performing
at equal 10th. In Australia 36% of students failed to reach the national baseline proficiency level in
reading literacy compared to 14% in Shanghai-China, 21% in Hong Kong-China and 24% in Korea.4
Six
countries, including Australia, showed a significant decline in reading literacy performance between
PISA 2000 and PISA 2012.
“

diddly-squat said:

When I went to school there was no subject streaming (other than in maths) and little focus on what happens after you leave school.

No subject streaming? When I did it at the end of form 4 (year 10) you basically had to choose your subjects for the next two years and that basically broke down between the science subjects and the humanities subjects.

It shouldn’t be about uni, it used to be that only a small percentage of students, the academically very clever ones, went to uni, now just about everyone goes.
The system was designed that students peeled off education when they reached their level, the ones who struggled at Scholarship peeled off to do labouring etc, the ones who struggled at Junior peeled off and did trades like carpentry, plumbing etc, the ones who struggled at Senior peeled off and went into teaching, public service or banking et, the others went on to uni.

AwesomeO said:

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

How are they better at problem solving? Problems have been solved in the past.

Please Miss, no one has yet explained how modern kids are better at problem solving or how knowing the multiplication tables hinders problem solving.

AwesomeO said:

AwesomeO said:

How are they better at problem solving? Problems have been solved in the past.

Please Miss, no one has yet explained how modern kids are better at problem solving or how knowing the multiplication tables hinders problem solving.

You’ve questioned the decline in rote learning in the pass Skunky. Did it feature in your education?

I guess a silly example would be 12 times tables. People my age would struggle with their 13 times tables, not having rote learned it, but for a modern kid it’s no different to their 12 or 14 times

Witty Rejoinder said:

You’ve questioned the decline in rote learning in the pass Skunky. Did it feature in your education?

pass=past

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

When I went to school there was no subject streaming (other than in maths) and little focus on what happens after you leave school.

No subject streaming? When I did it at the end of form 4 (year 10) you basically had to choose your subjects for the next two years and that basically broke down between the science subjects and the humanities subjects.

no I mean inclusion of extension streams and the like.

for instance in Yr9 and Yr10 at the school the twin attend there is a regular maths and extension maths (what they call Key Plus Maths), the same goes for English. There is also streaming of science into Physical Science (physics and chem) and Natural Science (chem and biology).

This extends into Yr11 and Yr12 where the school offers 27 OP subjects and and 10 non-OP subjects

Dropbear said:

I guess a silly example would be 12 times tables. People my age would struggle with their 13 times tables, not having rote learned it, but for a modern kid it’s no different to their 12 or 14 times

IT’s rool difficult adding 13 to things each time, much easier adding 12…

Witty Rejoinder said:

AwesomeO said:

AwesomeO said:

How are they better at problem solving? Problems have been solved in the past.

Please Miss, no one has yet explained how modern kids are better at problem solving or how knowing the multiplication tables hinders problem solving.

You’ve questioned the decline in rote learning in the pass Skunky. Did it feature in your education?

Not hugely.

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

We should also remember that according to old people, educational standards have been in a steady state of decline for at least the last 3000 years.

Ever since people started writing stuff down so kids didn’t learn to memorise any more.

+1

I will admit though that some schools may be guilty of teaching kids how to pass high school exams, as opposed to teaching them how to solve problems they may encounter at university.

It’s why most private school kids drop out of uni ;)

• I guess a silly example would be 12 times tables. People my age would struggle with their 13 times tables, not having rote learned it, but for a modern kid it’s no different to their 12 or 14 times

13 is simple if you break it up into 10 and 3 but then you’d still have to know your 10x and 3x tables and how to add two numbers together…

poikilotherm said:

Dropbear said:

I guess a silly example would be 12 times tables. People my age would struggle with their 13 times tables, not having rote learned it, but for a modern kid it’s no different to their 12 or 14 times

IT’s rool difficult adding 13 to things each time, much easier adding 12…

My point is, I don’t need to think about what 12×9 is, but I do with 13×9

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

When I went to school there was no subject streaming (other than in maths) and little focus on what happens after you leave school.

No subject streaming? When I did it at the end of form 4 (year 10) you basically had to choose your subjects for the next two years and that basically broke down between the science subjects and the humanities subjects.

We must be of an age sibeen. I went to Koonung High School (government school) in Box Hill North between 1972 and 1977. It was exactly as you say. Forms 1 and 2 were very general. Forms 3 and 4 there was some subject choice. For forms 5 and 6 you knew damn well that to stay able to do most uni courses you had to do the science subjects because if you took all humanities your course choices were limited. But I speak as one of the academically inclined students.

So yeh as the Rev says, most old people think education standards are slipping for kids these days .. It just so happens in the last 20 years at least, it’s demonstrably and quantifiably so

buffy said:

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

When I went to school there was no subject streaming (other than in maths) and little focus on what happens after you leave school.

No subject streaming? When I did it at the end of form 4 (year 10) you basically had to choose your subjects for the next two years and that basically broke down between the science subjects and the humanities subjects.

We must be of an age sibeen. I went to Koonung High School (government school) in Box Hill North between 1972 and 1977. It was exactly as you say. Forms 1 and 2 were very general. Forms 3 and 4 there was some subject choice. For forms 5 and 6 you knew damn well that to stay able to do most uni courses you had to do the science subjects because if you took all humanities your course choices were limited. But I speak as one of the academically inclined students.

it’s still the same…

In year 8 students have no free choice as to which subjects they do

In year 9 and year 10 they get to choose from a series of subjects that are grouped (pick one from this gropup and two from another – that sort of thing)

Then year 11 and year 12 is when you choose a series of subjects based on the sort of tertiary (or vocational) pathway you want to follow.

AwesomeO said:

AwesomeO said:

diddly-squat said:

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

How are they better at problem solving? Problems have been solved in the past.

Please Miss, no one has yet explained how modern kids are better at problem solving or how knowing the multiplication tables hinders problem solving.

Problems get solved all the time

Dropbear said:

So yeh as the Rev says, most old people think education standards are slipping for kids these days .. It just so happens in the last 20 years at least, it’s demonstrably and quantifiably so

Australia slipping in ranking is different from the standard over time dropping.

I blame The Iphones and The Youtubes for these young whippersnappers being so dumb and not keeping off my dang lawn.

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

So yeh as the Rev says, most old people think education standards are slipping for kids these days .. It just so happens in the last 20 years at least, it’s demonstrably and quantifiably so

Australia slipping in ranking is different from the standard over time dropping.

Its both. I selectively quoted for brevity

CrazyNeutrino said:

AwesomeO said:

AwesomeO said:

How are they better at problem solving? Problems have been solved in the past.

Please Miss, no one has yet explained how modern kids are better at problem solving or how knowing the multiplication tables hinders problem solving.

Problems get solved all the time

I agree, I even said that problems have been solved in the past. But your claim was that kids today are better at problem solving, presumably despite not knowing times tables, I was wondering how you know that and the link with multiplication tables.

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

So yeh as the Rev says, most old people think education standards are slipping for kids these days .. It just so happens in the last 20 years at least, it’s demonstrably and quantifiably so

Australia slipping in ranking is different from the standard over time dropping.

Its both. I selectively quoted for brevity

Perhaps the standard hasn’t dropped but it hasn’t improved either and other nations have.

Cymek said:

I blame The Iphones and The Youtubes for these young whippersnappers being so dumb and not keeping off my dang lawn.

Heh. My dad could do good approximations of square roots in his head, and could juggle all sorts of equations mentally. He wasn’t particularly bright, but you had to be able to function without a slide rule or log book handy

Cymek said:

Dropbear said:

diddly-squat said:

Australia slipping in ranking is different from the standard over time dropping.

Its both. I selectively quoted for brevity

Perhaps the standard hasn’t dropped but it hasn’t improved either and other nations have.

The standard has dropped in Australia AND improved in the countries we are in competition with.

But hey they’re well rounded

Can you hear it?
The googling …

hey, so i’m googling the answer to 13×9, we’re not all Erdős you know!

ChrispenEvan said:

hey, so i’m googling the answer to 13×9, we’re not all Erdős you know!

Carry the two….oh damn..

Dropbear said:

ChrispenEvan said:

hey, so i’m googling the answer to 13×9, we’re not all Erdős you know!

Carry the two….oh damn..

There is a calculator on the desk here. Faster than Google.

bob(from black rock) said:

Do school kids learn the multiplication tables like we had to? I started school back in 1945.

Yep.

Good thing too.

Calculators are fine but if you don’t instantly know that 3 times 7 is 21, without even having to think about it, then you are going to be disadvantaged in life.

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Dropbear said:

Rote learning is frowned on these days

Which is largely why kids leave school as dumb as a bag full of sticks.

it’s not frowned on…it’s just not practiced to the same extent. Which is why kids leaving school these days are more adaptable and better at problem solving.

Anyway they’ve got Moffsoft FreeCalc.

I’ve got angry birds