What does more damage? religions or illicit dugs?

bob(from black rock) said:

What does more damage? religions or illicit dugs?

Define the difference.

If it wasn’t for religion, we’d be much further advanced in sensible measures for dealing with the misuse of drugs.

Therefore, as religion inhibits the rational treatment of drug abuse, it’s religion that’s the greater problem.

Drugs poison those who abuse them.

Religion can poison the lives of people who are just trying to cope with their own existence.

Here’s the best summary of religion i’ve seen for a while:

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2296

bob(from black rock) said:

What does more damage? religions or illicit dugs?

In ethical questions, I always go back to Jeremy Bentham. Work it out yourself from that.

mollwollfumble said:

bob(from black rock) said:

What does more damage? religions or illicit dugs?

In ethical questions, I always go back to Jeremy Bentham. Work it out yourself from that.

Well, i could go and ask J.B. directly, i suppose.

But, i’d be really surprised if i got an answer.

find the figures for drug related deaths

find the figures for deaths caused by religious wars

Why illicit drugs?

Alcohol and tobacco do significant harm.

CrazyNeutrino said:

find the figures for drug related deaths

find the figures for deaths caused by religious wars

Any particular religious wars? I think if you examine religious wars you will find they are just good old nationalistic wars. And you have to go a long way to get past the death tolls at the hand of Mao, Hitler and Stalin in our recent history.

AwesomeO said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

find the figures for drug related deaths

find the figures for deaths caused by religious wars

Any particular religious wars? I think if you examine religious wars you will find they are just good old nationalistic wars. And you have to go a long way to get past the death tolls at the hand of Mao, Hitler and Stalin in our recent history.

All religious wars

yes religious wars tend to get mixed with social politics, resources, and other reasons

CrazyNeutrino said:

AwesomeO said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

find the figures for drug related deaths

find the figures for deaths caused by religious wars

Any particular religious wars? I think if you examine religious wars you will find they are just good old nationalistic wars. And you have to go a long way to get past the death tolls at the hand of Mao, Hitler and Stalin in our recent history.

All religious wars

yes religious wars tend to get mixed with social politics, resources, and other reasons

Which ones are you thinking of?

AwesomeO said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

AwesomeO said:

Any particular religious wars? I think if you examine religious wars you will find they are just good old nationalistic wars. And you have to go a long way to get past the death tolls at the hand of Mao, Hitler and Stalin in our recent history.

All religious wars

yes religious wars tend to get mixed with social politics, resources, and other reasons

Which ones are you thinking of?

How about the Protestants and the Catholics since Henry VIII
The Muslims and the Christians since before the Crusades.

PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

All religious wars

yes religious wars tend to get mixed with social politics, resources, and other reasons

Which ones are you thinking of?

How about the Protestants and the Catholics since Henry VIII
The Muslims and the Christians since before the Crusades.

Protestants and Catholics is a good one. Though more about Henry resenting rule from Rome. And the crusades were basically a land grab from muslims and then a fightback blessed by the pope. Point being it is hard to point at any purely or even majorly religious wars. And I would suggest those majorly religious wars are dwarfed by the dimensions of good old war for territory and control.

AwesomeO said:

Protestants and Catholics is a good one. Though more about Henry resenting rule from Rome. And the crusades were basically a land grab from muslims and then a fightback blessed by the pope. Point being it is hard to point at any purely or even majorly religious wars. And I would suggest those majorly religious wars are dwarfed by the dimensions of good old war for territory and control.

The only one I can think of as a purely religious war was the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars. But that was in the early 1200s.

AwesomeO said:

PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

Which ones are you thinking of?

How about the Protestants and the Catholics since Henry VIII
The Muslims and the Christians since before the Crusades.

>>Protestants and Catholics is a good one. Though more about Henry resenting rule from Rome.<<

The Catholics didn’t think so.

>>And the crusades were basically a land grab from muslims and then a fightback blessed by the pope. Point being it is hard to point at any purely or even majorly religious wars.<<

The Muslims pushed the Christians out of holy city of Jerusalem and the Christians wanted it back.

>>And I would suggest those majorly religious wars are dwarfed by the dimensions of good old war for territory and control.<<

No doubt.

the crusades were different for different groups of people. the masses thought of it as a pilgrimage and to reclaim jeruselem. the knights, not all, thought of it as getting some land and reclaiming jeruselem. they were far from being a solely religious exercise.

the pope gave the green light to the invasion of 1066

Is ISIS a religion?

ISIS vs coalition?

ISIS isn’t a religion.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is ISIS a religion?

ISIS vs coalition?

I’d say no.

More a medieval fantasy revivalist movement. They want to establish a caliphate, just like in the old days 800 years ago.

quite a few of the knights in the crusades were second sons so they had no hope of inheriting any land. they saw the crusades as a way to acquire some.

ChrispenEvan said:

ISIS isn’t a religion.

What is it?

Ive heard it being called a death cult

cults are usually religious in nature

ChrispenEvan said:

the crusades were different for different groups of people. the masses thought of it as a pilgrimage and to reclaim jeruselem. the knights, not all, thought of it as getting some land and reclaiming jeruselem. they were far from being a solely religious exercise.

And what war isn’t?

from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL /‘a?s?l/; Arabic: ?????? ????????? ?? ?????? ???????), also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or the Islamic State of Iraq and ash-Sham (ISIS /‘a?s?s/), or simply as the Islamic State, is a Salafi jihadi militant group that as of March 2015 had control over territory occupied by 10 million people in Iraq and Syria, as well as limited territorial control in Libya and Nigeria. The group also operates or has affiliates in other parts of the world including Southeast Asia.

The group is known in Arabic as ad-Dawlah al-Islamiyah fil-?Iraq wash-Sham, leading to the acronym Da’ish, Da’eesh, or DAESH (??, Arabic pronunciation: ), the Arabic equivalent of “ISIL”. On 29 June 2014, the group proclaimed itself to be a worldwide caliphate, with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi being named its caliph, and renamed itself “Islamic State” (???? ?????????, ad-Dawlah al-Islamiyah). The new name and the idea of a caliphate has been widely criticised and condemned, with the United Nations, various governments, and mainstream Muslim groups all refusing to acknowledge it. As caliphate, it claims religious, political and military authority over all Muslims worldwide and that “the legality of all emirates, groups, states, and organisations, becomes null by the expansion of the khilafah’s authority and arrival of its troops to their areas”. Many Islamic and non-Islamic communities judge the group to be unrepresentative of Islam.

we were talking of religious wars, weren’t we? i, and others, have just pointed out that solely religious wars are a rarity.

ISIS isn’t a religion. just as the australian army wouldn’t be a religion even if all members were catholic.

ChrispenEvan said:

we were talking of religious wars, weren’t we? i, and others, have just pointed out that solely religious wars are a rarity.

yes,

although I think resources, politics and religion get all thrown in the same basket

so it gets difficult to sort out what really going on

ChrispenEvan said:

ISIS isn’t a religion. just as the australian army wouldn’t be a religion even if all members were catholic.

It is fightng for a religious based outcome though.

ChrispenEvan said:

ISIS isn’t a religion. just as the australian army wouldn’t be a religion even if all members were catholic.

this bit from wiki

As caliphate, it claims religious, political and military authority over all Muslims worldwide and that “the legality of all emirates, groups, states, and organisations, becomes null by the expansion of the khilāfah’s authority and arrival of its troops to their areas”. Many Islamic and non-Islamic communities judge the group to be unrepresentative of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

so your premise of religious wars was false? and you now agree with, most of, us?

ChrispenEvan said:

we were talking of religious wars, weren’t we? i, and others, have just pointed out that solely religious wars are a rarity.

Different things have different meanings to different people and with any war with the multitude of people being effected, you will many different reasons for them being involved. I don’t think it is a pertinent argument, when such a situation applies to all wars.

maybe it is but i was answering the question as whether ISIS is a religion. and it isn’t.

ChrispenEvan said:

so your premise of religious wars was false? and you now agree with, most of, us?

Yes my thinking has changed a bit

ChrispenEvan said:

maybe it is but i was answering the question as whether ISIS is a religion. and it isn’t.

How would you describe ISIS

a military organization?

while taking comparison for a wander

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_accidents

“Road injuries resulted in 1.4 million deaths in 2013 up from 1.1 million deaths in 1990. About 68,000 of these occurred in children less than five years old. Almost all high-income countries have a decreasing death rates, while the majority of low-income countries having increased deaths rates due to traffic collisions. Middle-income countries have the highest rate with 20 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants, 80% of all road fatalities by only 52% of all vehicles. While the death rate in Africa is the highest (24.1 per 100,000 inhabitants), the lowest rate is to be found in Europe (10.3).”

Prohibition in the US began at the instigation of religious groups.

Prohibition was the greatest boon imaginable for criminal activity.

Without prohibition, organised crime would never have become what it was or is.

transition said:

while taking comparison for a wander

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_accidents

“Road injuries resulted in 1.4 million deaths in 2013 up from 1.1 million deaths in 1990. About 68,000 of these occurred in children less than five years old. Almost all high-income countries have a decreasing death rates, while the majority of low-income countries having increased deaths rates due to traffic collisions. Middle-income countries have the highest rate with 20 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants, 80% of all road fatalities by only 52% of all vehicles. While the death rate in Africa is the highest (24.1 per 100,000 inhabitants), the lowest rate is to be found in Europe (10.3).”

what percentage is alcohol related?

how many people die from smoking cigarettes

I’m still a bit confused as to what ISIS really is.

why don’t you google for these answers?

ChrispenEvan said:

why don’t you google for these answers?

A militant group with religious aspirations?

In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.

CrazyNeutrino said:

I’m still a bit confused as to what ISIS really is.

A few hundred years ago there was an empire based in Baghdad that ruled over much of middle east and north Africa,.The emperor was called the Caliph and the empire known as the caliphate. Over time the empire crumbled, and split and new empires arose.

ISIS want to revive that medieval empire. It is as much military and political as religiously motivated.

A bit like someone in Europe pining for the good old days of the Roman empire and wanting to go around conquering territories trying to revive it.

I think the media has confused a lot of people on what ISIS really is

Tony keeps saying that ISIS are a Death Cult

wiki says a militant group

party_pants said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I’m still a bit confused as to what ISIS really is.

A few hundred years ago there was an empire based in Baghdad that ruled over much of middle east and north Africa,.The emperor was called the Caliph and the empire known as the caliphate. Over time the empire crumbled, and split and new empires arose.

ISIS want to revive that medieval empire. It is as much military and political as religiously motivated.

A bit like someone in Europe pining for the good old days of the Roman empire and wanting to go around conquering territories trying to revive it.

Yes, they do have a medieval vibe

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think the media has confused a lot of people on what ISIS really is

Tony keeps saying that ISIS are a Death Cult

wiki says a militant group

Well if he called them islamic militants luvvies would go batshit.

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think the media has confused a lot of people on what ISIS really is

Tony keeps saying that ISIS are a Death Cult

wiki says a militant group

Don’t take Tony’s words too seriously.

Death cult as in they are very barbaric in their actions and treatment of prisoners I guess.

AwesomeO said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think the media has confused a lot of people on what ISIS really is

Tony keeps saying that ISIS are a Death Cult

wiki says a militant group

Well if he called them islamic militants luvvies would go batshit.

Im ok with militant group

The beliefs and aims of ISIL are generally those of mainstream Wahhabi (Salafi) Islamism, as practised in Saudi Arabia and advocated by the Muslim Brotherhood. But they are more apocalyptic in outlook (expecting an imminent Day of Judgement and its divine intervention) which probably accounts for their totally unrealistic expectation of “victory” in their destructive cause. Wikipedia takes up the story:

Ideology and beliefs

Main article: Ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

ISIL is a Salafi group. It follows an extreme interpretation of Islam, promotes religious violence, and regards those who do not agree with its interpretations as infidels or apostates. According to Hayder al Khoei, ISIL’s philosophy is represented by the symbolism in the Black Standard variant of the legendary battle flag of Muhammad that it has adopted: the flag shows the Seal of Muhammad within a white circle, with the phrase above it, “There is no God but Allah”. Such symbolism has been said to point to ISIL’s belief that it represents the restoration of the caliphate of early Islam, with all the political, religious and eschatological ramifications that this would imply.

According to some observers, ISIL emerged from the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, the first post-Ottoman Islamist group dating back to the late 1920s in Egypt. It adheres to global jihadist principles and follows the hard-line ideology of al-Qaeda and many other modern-day jihadist groups. However, other sources trace the group’s roots not to the Islamism of the Muslim Brotherhood and the more mainstream jihadism of al-Qaeda, but to Wahhabism. The New York Times wrote:

For their guiding principles, the leaders of the Islamic State … are open and clear about their almost exclusive commitment to the Wahhabi movement of Sunni Islam. The group circulates images of Wahhabi religious textbooks from Saudi Arabia in the schools it controls. Videos from the group’s territory have shown Wahhabi texts plastered on the sides of an official missionary van.

According to The Economist, dissidents in the ISIL capital of Ar-Raqqah report that “all 12 of the judges who now run its court system … are Saudis”. Saudi Wahhabi practices also followed by the group include the establishment of religious police to root out “vice” and enforce attendance at salat prayers, the widespread use of capital punishment, and the destruction or re-purposing of any non-Sunni religious buildings. Bernard Haykel has described al-Baghdadi’s creed as “a kind of untamed Wahhabism”.

ISIL aims to return to the early days of Islam, rejecting all innovations in the religion, which it believes corrupts its original spirit. It condemns later caliphates and the Ottoman Empire for deviating from what it calls pure Islam, and seeks to revive the original Wahhabi project of the restoration of the caliphate governed by strict Salafist doctrine. Following Salafi-Wahhabi tradition, ISIL condemns the followers of secular law as disbelievers, putting the current Saudi government in that category.

Salafists such as ISIL believe that only a legitimate authority can undertake the leadership of jihad, and that the first priority over other areas of combat, such as fighting non-Muslim countries, is the purification of Islamic society. For example, ISIL regards the Palestinian Sunni group Hamas as apostates who have no legitimate authority to lead jihad and it regards fighting Hamas as the first step toward confrontation with Israel.

Eschatology

One difference between ISIL and other Islamist and jihadist movements is its emphasis on eschatology and apocalypticism, and its belief that the arrival of the Mahdi is imminent. ISIL believes it will defeat the army of “Rome” at the town of Dabiq in fulfilment of prophecy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Ideology_and_beliefs

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think the media has confused a lot of people on what ISIS really is

Tony keeps saying that ISIS are a Death Cult

wiki says a militant group

The “death cult” tag refers to their apocalyptic focus.

thanks Mr Car.

Bubblecar said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think the media has confused a lot of people on what ISIS really is

Tony keeps saying that ISIS are a Death Cult

wiki says a militant group

The “death cult” tag refers to their apocalyptic focus.

Ok, I understand that

Drugs poison those who abuse them.

Religion can and does poison the lives of people who are just trying to cope with their own existence.

As the Captain said. As adjusted by myself.

Not much more to be said really only that a good example to explain why religious wars are really just excuses to grab hour land and money, was the burning of witches. An easy land acquisition when all her relatives lived a years journey away by sailing ship.

“you’re a witch you bitch! If you don’t sik when I tie you up and toss you in the dam then I’ll cover you with pitch and stike a light your land will be cleansed so that us good folk can have it.

• your land will be cleansed so that us good folk can have it.

Because there was such a shortage of land in the new world…

furious said:

• your land will be cleansed so that us good folk can have it.

Because there was such a shortage of land in the new world…

There was always grass greener on the other side of the fence.

roughbarked said:

Not much more to be said really only that a good example to explain why religious wars are really just excuses to grab hour land and money, was the burning of witches. An easy land acquisition when all her relatives lived a years journey away by sailing ship.

“you’re a witch you bitch! If you don’t sink when I tie you up and toss you in the dam then I’ll cover you with pitch and strike a light your land will be cleansed so that us good folk can have it.

Given that women weren’t actually allowed to own land at the time, this scenario seems somewhat unlikely.

I notice that no-one has mentioned a religion whose name begins with s. Is that because you’re too frightened to, or too stupid to? They have a stranglehold on world censorship, including news censorship, book censorship, TV censorship, film censorship and web censorship.

They got to Hamish Blake, they got to Claire Hooper, they got to mollwollfumble. Already in their earliest days an FBI raid found that they had a “hit list of critics” and “reports continually surfaced” regarding the church’s “tactics of harassment, intimidation and defamation of critics”.

All I know about them is what I heard before the censorship curtain came down. In 1986, the year its founder died, this church stated that it had 6 million followers worldwide (though some outside the church consider it may have been only 1 million at the time). It was then growing exponentially. One of their early recruitment organisations was Narcanon, the narcotics equivalent of Al-anon, and they also deliberately did recruitment using a prisoners aide society. Secret followers include a certain Australian singer whose name begins with K, and a member of Danish royalty.

The last organised attack on them was by a web organisation known as Anonymous. They got to Anonymous and no more attacks will happen. Their wikipedia page is deliberately many years out of date and inaccurate.

mollwollfumble said:

I notice that no-one has mentioned a religion whose name begins with s. Is that because you’re too frightened to, or too stupid to? They have a stranglehold on world censorship, including news censorship, book censorship, TV censorship, film censorship and web censorship.

They got to Hamish Blake, they got to Claire Hooper, they got to mollwollfumble. Already in their earliest days an FBI raid found that they had a “hit list of critics” and “reports continually surfaced” regarding the church’s “tactics of harassment, intimidation and defamation of critics”.

All I know about them is what I heard before the censorship curtain came down. In 1986, the year its founder died, this church stated that it had 6 million followers worldwide (though some outside the church consider it may have been only 1 million at the time). It was then growing exponentially. One of their early recruitment organisations was Narcanon, the narcotics equivalent of Al-anon, and they also deliberately did recruitment using a prisoners aide society. Secret followers include a certain Australian singer whose name begins with K, and a member of Danish royalty.

The last organised attack on them was by a web organisation known as Anonymous. They got to Anonymous and no more attacks will happen. Their wikipedia page is deliberately many years out of date and inaccurate.

Were you a scientologist mollwoll?

mollwollfumble said:

They got to Hamish Blake, they got to Claire Hooper, they got to mollwollfumble.

What do you mean they ‘got’ to you?
You’re far too smart to be taken in by their nonsense. Pretty much anyone with an IQ above 85 would also qualify.

Back in the 70s, i was accosted by a Scientology ‘pollster’ at Central Railway in Sydney. I was invited to view a film on and introduction to Scientology (their premises was right by Central Railway in those days). As i had 90 mins or so to fill before my train left, and i really knew nothing of Scientology, i said yes.

At the Scientology premises, i joined three or four other people in a room with student desks and chairs, and a projector an screen. A brief film was shown, talking about Hubbard, ‘engrams’, ‘auditing’ and ‘becoming clear’ and possibly other things (it was a long time ago).

At the end, the eager Scientology recruiter asked us what we thought of the presentation.

A chap of about my age stood up, cleared his throat, and said in a clear, calm voice, “You people are fucking nuts.” Then he left.

The presenter looked a little bit flustered. I stood up, and said, in as kindly a tone as i could, “he’s right you know – you are”. And then i left.

captain_spalding said:

Back in the 70s, i was accosted by a Scientology ‘pollster’ at Central Railway in Sydney. I was invited to view a film on and introduction to Scientology (their premises was right by Central Railway in those days). As i had 90 mins or so to fill before my train left, and i really knew nothing of Scientology, i said yes.

At the Scientology premises, i joined three or four other people in a room with student desks and chairs, and a projector an screen. A brief film was shown, talking about Hubbard, ‘engrams’, ‘auditing’ and ‘becoming clear’ and possibly other things (it was a long time ago).

At the end, the eager Scientology recruiter asked us what we thought of the presentation.

A chap of about my age stood up, cleared his throat, and said in a clear, calm voice, “You people are fucking nuts.” Then he left.

The presenter looked a little bit flustered. I stood up, and said, in as kindly a tone as i could, “he’s right you know – you are”. And then i left.

The right course of action. Personalities that aren’t flawed are less able to be brainwashed.

Then I saw the beast coming up out of the sea, it had ten horns and seven heads.

“One of Iran’s female vice presidents has condemned “sanctimonious” groups whose threats of violent confrontation at a volleyball match ultimately triggered a clampdown on women spectators…

Religious hardliners said they would spill blood if women were allowed into the stadium, branding female volleyball fans “prostitutes” and “sluts” on online forums and on posters allegedly distributed in downtown Tehran.” – ABC News

Hmm…would they also brand men who attend female sporting events (if there are any) as ‘perverts’ and ‘rapists’?

captain_spalding said:

“One of Iran’s female vice presidents has condemned “sanctimonious” groups whose threats of violent confrontation at a volleyball match ultimately triggered a clampdown on women spectators…

Religious hardliners said they would spill blood if women were allowed into the stadium, branding female volleyball fans “prostitutes” and “sluts” on online forums and on posters allegedly distributed in downtown Tehran.” – ABC News

Hmm…would they also brand men who attend female sporting events (if there are any) as ‘perverts’ and ‘rapists’?

There is a sexist element to Islam.

captain_spalding said:

Hmm…would they also brand men who attend female sporting events (if there are any) as ‘perverts’ and ‘rapists’?

If so, they wouldn’t be the first.

CrazyNeutrino said:

There is a sexist element to Islam.

O’reely.

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

There is a sexist element to Islam.

O’reely.

No, I was just kidding

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Hmm…would they also brand men who attend female sporting events (if there are any) as ‘perverts’ and ‘rapists’?

If so, they wouldn’t be the first.

Well, i’ve attended sporting events between female teams, and i’m definitely not a rapist.

CrazyNeutrino said:

There is a sexist element to Islam.

What is it about women that terrifies so many Muslim ‘clerics’?

captain_spalding said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

There is a sexist element to Islam.

What is it about women that terrifies so many Muslim ‘clerics’?

( . Y . )

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Hmm…would they also brand men who attend female sporting events (if there are any) as ‘perverts’ and ‘rapists’?

If so, they wouldn’t be the first.

Well, i’ve attended sporting events between female teams, and i’m definitely not a rapist.

Didn’t say you were. I would say the same about myself as well. However I have seen scathing comment written about men watching female sports and the comments they make. In many cases it is as well founded as the fact that women watch football for the men in the tight uniforms or that the women get a giggle when they watch cricketers doing “there’s the rub”.

captain_spalding said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

There is a sexist element to Islam.

What is it about women that terrifies so many Muslim ‘clerics’?

They prefer their dancing boys.

Whether or not i’m a ‘pervert’ is, however, open to subjective debate.

captain_spalding said:

Whether or not i’m a ‘pervert’ is, however, open to subjective debate.

Everything is legal behond closed doors?

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

There is a sexist element to Islam.

What is it about women that terrifies so many Muslim ‘clerics’?

( . Y . )

God put breasts on women to make suckers out of all the men?

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Back in the 70s, i was accosted by a Scientology ‘pollster’ at Central Railway in Sydney. I was invited to view a film on and introduction to Scientology (their premises was right by Central Railway in those days). As i had 90 mins or so to fill before my train left, and i really knew nothing of Scientology, i said yes.

At the Scientology premises, i joined three or four other people in a room with student desks and chairs, and a projector an screen. A brief film was shown, talking about Hubbard, ‘engrams’, ‘auditing’ and ‘becoming clear’ and possibly other things (it was a long time ago).

At the end, the eager Scientology recruiter asked us what we thought of the presentation.

A chap of about my age stood up, cleared his throat, and said in a clear, calm voice, “You people are fucking nuts.” Then he left.

The presenter looked a little bit flustered. I stood up, and said, in as kindly a tone as i could, “he’s right you know – you are”. And then i left.

The right course of action. Personalities that aren’t flawed are less able to be brainwashed.

Scientologists are nutcases

mollwollfumble said:

I notice that no-one has mentioned a religion whose name begins with s. Is that because you’re too frightened to, or too stupid to? They have a stranglehold on world censorship, including news censorship, book censorship, TV censorship, film censorship and web censorship.

They got to Hamish Blake, they got to Claire Hooper, they got to mollwollfumble. Already in their earliest days an FBI raid found that they had a “hit list of critics” and “reports continually surfaced” regarding the church’s “tactics of harassment, intimidation and defamation of critics”.

All I know about them is what I heard before the censorship curtain came down. In 1986, the year its founder died, this church stated that it had 6 million followers worldwide (though some outside the church consider it may have been only 1 million at the time). It was then growing exponentially. One of their early recruitment organisations was Narcanon, the narcotics equivalent of Al-anon, and they also deliberately did recruitment using a prisoners aide society. Secret followers include a certain Australian singer whose name begins with K, and a member of Danish royalty.

The last organised attack on them was by a web organisation known as Anonymous. They got to Anonymous and no more attacks will happen. Their wikipedia page is deliberately many years out of date and inaccurate.

I hate scientology as much as anyone, but what is this stuff about it not being criticised?

Other than Islam, I can’t think of any religion that is more criticised.

In relation to their Criticism/Harm ratio they must be orders of magnitudes higher than the main religions (since their numbers are small, not because they do little harm).

The Rev Dodgson said:

I hate scientology as much as anyone,

Following that comment, I thought I really ought to do a “what have the Scientologists done for us?” routine.

Here it is so far:

What have the Scientologists ever done for us?

> Were you a scientologist mollwoll?

Never.

> They got to Hamish Blake, they got to Claire Hooper, they got to mollwollfumble.

In Hamish’s case, he made a TV skit about Ryantology, much later he was invited on a talk show with Lisa Simpson. She snubbed him totally. as a person who wants everyone to love him, that hurt him permanently.

In Claire’s case, she made a scientology joke in her book about Wikka. She was forced by the publisher to remove it.

In mollwollfumble’s case, it’s difficult to distinguish between real paranoia and genuine intimidation. Where those anonymous phone calls really from scientologists? Was that internet tab logout that was replaced by ad for a well known associated organism purely a coincidence?

Air and water are also dangerous materials, anyone who has ever died from whatever causes, have all drunk water, and breathed air, if you don’t do either of these things, you will not die of asphyxiation or dehydration.