Is it possible?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

already being used

Saturn V second stage used a hydrogen to produce thrust

normal ICEs can be adjusted to use hydrogen , you set the ignition to top dead centre – no advance or retarding of ignition

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

Been around for many decades, nothing new.

solid state fuel cells are still expensive – too expensive , its easier just combusting hydrogen with air

Spiny Norman said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

Been around for many decades, nothing new.

Are there hydrogen engines for cars?

personally with rocket engines i wouldn’t use hydrogen

N2O4 is potentially much easier to store and use than liquid hydrogen as is liquid propane for the fuel

CrazyNeutrino said:

Spiny Norman said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

Been around for many decades, nothing new.

Are there hydrogen engines for cars?

honda Clarity.

(ok, not hydrogen engine, but powered by hydrogen…

as far as i know liquid hydrogen still needs to be pumped to the combustion chamber, unlike something like N2O its not self pressurising

hydrogen cars aren’t practical

wookiemeister said:

as far as i know liquid hydrogen still needs to be pumped to the combustion chamber, unlike something like N2O its not self pressurising

hydrogen cars aren’t practical

in what way?

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

as far as i know liquid hydrogen still needs to be pumped to the combustion chamber, unlike something like N2O its not self pressurising

hydrogen cars aren’t practical

in what way?

Asking wookie for a practical description?

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

as far as i know liquid hydrogen still needs to be pumped to the combustion chamber, unlike something like N2O its not self pressurising

hydrogen cars aren’t practical

in what way?

its how the hydrogen is stored, any whizz bang way of doing it is expensive – if it were cheap and practical everyone would be driving hydrogen cars

then theres the way we produce it – electrolysis is an energy hungry way of doing it but the fact is that regardless of what research has happened nothing happens with it.

to be honest i’m more inclined to think that diesel derived from good old coal is better

its low in sulphur, coal is abundant and nowadays cheap as chips

you use solar radiation to heat the coal and inject hydrogen i think as art of the process

wookiemeister said:

you use solar radiation to heat the coal and inject hydrogen i think as art of the process

Hang on, how are you storing the hydrogen?

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

you use solar radiation to heat the coal and inject hydrogen i think as art of the process

Hang on, how are you storing the hydrogen?

you don’t, all production is during daylight hours

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

as far as i know liquid hydrogen still needs to be pumped to the combustion chamber, unlike something like N2O its not self pressurising

hydrogen cars aren’t practical

in what way?

its how the hydrogen is stored, any whizz bang way of doing it is expensive – if it were cheap and practical everyone would be driving hydrogen cars

then theres the way we produce it – electrolysis is an energy hungry way of doing it but the fact is that regardless of what research has happened nothing happens with it.

you can lease a purely hydrogen delivered production car in america for less than $500/month, when they get further into production, it is estimated that they will cost the same as the equivalent ICE model car

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

in what way?

its how the hydrogen is stored, any whizz bang way of doing it is expensive – if it were cheap and practical everyone would be driving hydrogen cars

then theres the way we produce it – electrolysis is an energy hungry way of doing it but the fact is that regardless of what research has happened nothing happens with it.

you can lease a purely hydrogen delivered production car in america for less than $500/month, when they get further into production, it is estimated that they will cost the same as the equivalent ICE model car

we’ll see

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

?

Perth had hydrogen buses a decade ago.

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

its how the hydrogen is stored, any whizz bang way of doing it is expensive – if it were cheap and practical everyone would be driving hydrogen cars

then theres the way we produce it – electrolysis is an energy hungry way of doing it but the fact is that regardless of what research has happened nothing happens with it.

you can lease a purely hydrogen delivered production car in america for less than $500/month, when they get further into production, it is estimated that they will cost the same as the equivalent ICE model car

we’ll see

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

you can lease a purely hydrogen delivered production car in america for less than $500/month, when they get further into production, it is estimated that they will cost the same as the equivalent ICE model car

we’ll see

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

we’ll see

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

hydrogen is not available everywhere, you’d need to build an entire infrastructure

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

we’ll see

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

Acetylene is harder.

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

hydrogen is not available everywhere, you’d need to build an entire infrastructure

So which part of the H isn’t in you?

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

Acetylene is harder.

yeah but no one is proposing running cars on acetylene in the practical world

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

it’s not a ‘well see’… it’s happening now

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

hydrogen is not available everywhere, you’d need to build an entire infrastructure

that’s the only limiting factor in production at the moment.

Honda in Japan are tooling up for a 2016 run of FCVs.
It’s predecessor the clarity gets 360kn to a tank and has been successful on a lease option in the US

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

the thing is this

battery driven cars are already in full swing and getting better mileage all the time, assuming its basic private use

electricity is available almost everywhere, is easily produced and easily stored

hydrogen needs to be first produced then stored AND its also prone to leaking and hard to store

Acetylene is harder.

yeah but no one is proposing running cars on acetylene in the practical world

However I see it standing aorund in shed corners and backs of utes, everywhere.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

Acetylene is harder.

yeah but no one is proposing running cars on acetylene in the practical world

However I see it standing aorund in shed corners and backs of utes, everywhere.

blame abbott…

stumpy_seahorse said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

yeah but no one is proposing running cars on acetylene in the practical world

However I see it standing aorund in shed corners and backs of utes, everywhere.

blame abbott…

How would he know anything about leaks? ;)

battery cars

very few moving parts

are you burning with air

are you also creating NO2 from the combustion process? – you’ll need an expensive catalytic converter for that car

wookiemeister said:

battery cars

very few moving parts

are you burning with air

are you also creating NO2 from the combustion process? – you’ll need an expensive catalytic converter for that car

only emmisions are water

wookiemeister said:

battery cars

very few moving parts

are you burning with air

are you also creating NO2 from the combustion process? – you’ll need an expensive catalytic converter for that car

Are you criticizing yourself?

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

battery cars

very few moving parts

are you burning with air

are you also creating NO2 from the combustion process? – you’ll need an expensive catalytic converter for that car

only emmisions are water

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

battery cars

very few moving parts

are you burning with air

are you also creating NO2 from the combustion process? – you’ll need an expensive catalytic converter for that car

only emmisions are water

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

who said it burns anything?

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

only emmisions are water

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

who said it burns anything?

well who says it doesn’t ?

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

who said it burns anything?

well who says it doesn’t ?

well, I’m no sciencematician… but i think the chemistry says it doesn’t…

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

who said it burns anything?

well who says it doesn’t ?

well, I’m no sciencematician… but i think the chemistry says it doesn’t…

this is your story, how does it use the hydrogen?

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

battery cars

very few moving parts

are you burning with air

are you also creating NO2 from the combustion process? – you’ll need an expensive catalytic converter for that car

only emmisions are water

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

In the presence of a catalyst, nitrous oxide will decompose exothermically into nitrogen and oxygen and produce a specific impulse of about 170 s.

Stars burn hydrogen and produce water.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stars burn hydrogen and produce water.

WE aren’t sure at present whether it is Hydrogen or Nitrogen they think they are talking about.

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

well who says it doesn’t ?

well, I’m no sciencematician… but i think the chemistry says it doesn’t…

this is your story, how does it use the hydrogen?

it’s not ‘my story’… it’s an existing vehicle…

electrolysis

Canyou use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

only emmisions are water

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

In the presence of a catalyst, nitrous oxide will decompose exothermically into nitrogen and oxygen and produce a specific impulse of about 170 s.

yes

they are added weight and expense using expensive metals

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stars burn hydrogen and produce water.

produce helium first

as i said we’ll see

hydroge is a dead duck for the moment – its like fusion always round the corner , then something happens

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Rivaz_engine

De Rivaz engine

The de Rivaz engine was a pioneering reciprocating engine designed and developed from 1804 by the Franco-Swiss inventor Isaac de Rivaz. The engine has a claim to be the world’s first internal combustion engine and contained some features of modern engines including spark ignition and the use of hydrogen gas as a fuel.

Starting with a stationary engine suitable to work a pump in 1804, de Rivaz progressed to a small experimental vehicle built in 1807, which was the first wheeled vehicle to be powered by an internal combustion engine. In subsequent years de Rivaz developed his design, and in 1813 built a larger 6-meter long vehicle, weighing almost a ton.

More…

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

i’m not sure, if you are burning with air you are also burning with nitrogen

In the presence of a catalyst, nitrous oxide will decompose exothermically into nitrogen and oxygen and produce a specific impulse of about 170 s.

yes

they are added weight and expense using expensive metals

But in fact, it is rocket science: http://www.braeunig.us/space/propel.htm

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

In the presence of a catalyst, nitrous oxide will decompose exothermically into nitrogen and oxygen and produce a specific impulse of about 170 s.

yes

they are added weight and expense using expensive metals

But in fact, it is rocket science: http://www.braeunig.us/space/propel.htm

that’s nitrous roughie not nitrous dioxide

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

yes

they are added weight and expense using expensive metals

But in fact, it is rocket science: http://www.braeunig.us/space/propel.htm

that’s nitrous roughie not nitrous dioxide

rofl… what’s an O between friends..

CrazyNeutrino said:

Canyou use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

Can you use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Canyou use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

Can you use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

do the experiment and report back

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

But in fact, it is rocket science: http://www.braeunig.us/space/propel.htm

that’s nitrous roughie not nitrous dioxide

rofl… what’s an O between friends..

nitrogen dioxide NO2

nitrous oxide N2O

catalytic converters would break both molecules anyway i believe

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/australias-first-hydrogen-car-launched-with-solar-refueller-63637

Australia’s first hydrogen car launched, with solar refueller
Nearly four months after its arrival on Australian soil, the nation’s first hydrogen fuel cell passenger vehicle has been officially unveiled in Sydney, alongside another first – a solar powered hydrogen refuelling station.

The South Korean-made Hyundai SUV ix35 Fuel Cell, which first arrived in Sydney in early December, was launched by federal industry minister Ian Macfarlane – who, according to this report, was also “taken for a spin” in the vehicle – at Hyundai Australia’s Macquarie Park headquarters on Wednesday.

More…

CrazyNeutrino said:

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/australias-first-hydrogen-car-launched-with-solar-refueller-63637

Australia’s first hydrogen car launched, with solar refueller
Nearly four months after its arrival on Australian soil, the nation’s first hydrogen fuel cell passenger vehicle has been officially unveiled in Sydney, alongside another first – a solar powered hydrogen refuelling station.

The South Korean-made Hyundai SUV ix35 Fuel Cell, which first arrived in Sydney in early December, was launched by federal industry minister Ian Macfarlane – who, according to this report, was also “taken for a spin” in the vehicle – at Hyundai Australia’s Macquarie Park headquarters on Wednesday.

More…

that would have to be a powerful solar powered fuelling station

and then again, you still need to build the infrastructure to make this hydrogen and presumably maintain it

battery driven cars are simply a high current plug

im still not convinced

current battery driven cars you go home and charge up

Hmm I just looked at the date for that article

1 april, lol

I’ll find another article

my take on it

use coal to drive larger vehicles and 4WDs actually going bush

use batteries to run all domestic use vehicles

you standardise what vehicles run

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/hybrid-technology/hydrogen-cars.htm

How Hydrogen Cars Work

i’m not convinced with the whole hybrid thing now – effectively you have two engines and two power sources

you lug around batteries with your petrol motor/ hydrogen motor

or you need two tanks/ hydrogen and petrol

I say just make it one motor, one storage – it makes it simpler

the simplest way to achieve vehicle efficiency is to make it lighter – just make the vehicle from aluminium – solid state technology!

Would it possible to make a battery that can be recharged by refilling a compressed gas bottle?
Kinda like a hydrogen fuel cell but not, just a bit of a similar process.

Spiny Norman said:

Would it possible to make a battery that can be recharged by refilling a compressed gas bottle?
Kinda like a hydrogen fuel cell but not, just a bit of a similar process.

you’d need a liquid that would allow gas to dissolve into it like carbon dioxide and water I suppose

stumpy_seahorse said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Canyou use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

Can you use natural gas tank in a car to store hydrogen?

do the experiment and report back

From

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a10175/the-hydrogen-car-is-back-again-16528552/

Are they safe

Yes. Stringent requirements established by the Department of Transportation (DOT) and Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) ensure that the technology is safe. Automakers are required to build robust hydrogen storage tanks that not only hold the fuel at up to 10,000 psi but also withstand arcane-sounding trials such as “bonfire” and “gunshot” tests by the DOT. Tanks are usually made of several layers of carbon fiber wrapped around aluminum or polyethylene liners, and many are also protected by external layers of steel. Regulations covering PRDs (pressure-relief devices) govern both temperatures and pressures at which gas is released, typically well below what is standard for safe operating conditions.

Spiny Norman said:

Would it possible to make a battery that can be recharged by refilling a compressed gas bottle?
Kinda like a hydrogen fuel cell but not, just a bit of a similar process.

Interesting question. The first thing that springs to mind is the hydrogen fuel cell, but you’ve excluded that. Another is a flow battery, like the vanadium redox battery, although that uses liquid electrolyte rather than gas. Otherwise, I don’t know. I’ll have to look into it.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stars burn hydrogen and produce water.

Ummmmm?

No. Stars “burn” Hydrogen and produce Helium. The “burning” of hydrogen fuel in a star is a nuclear reaction, not a chemical reaction. It is not oxidation.

Michael V said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stars burn hydrogen and produce water.

Ummmmm?

No. Stars “burn” Hydrogen and produce Helium. The “burning” of hydrogen fuel in a star is a nuclear reaction, not a chemical reaction. It is not oxidation.

tony probably thinks stars burn coal

btm said:

Spiny Norman said:

Would it possible to make a battery that can be recharged by refilling a compressed gas bottle?
Kinda like a hydrogen fuel cell but not, just a bit of a similar process.

Interesting question. The first thing that springs to mind is the hydrogen fuel cell, but you’ve excluded that. Another is a flow battery, like the vanadium redox battery, although that uses liquid electrolyte rather than gas. Otherwise, I don’t know. I’ll have to look into it.

Thinking about this some more, I don’t think it’s possible. The molecules in a gas — even highly compressed — are too far apart for efficient electron transfer, so a gas couldn’t be used directly as the electrolyte. It may be possible to dissolve the gas in another (liquid) material, but diffusion is far too slow and the liquid would be unusable after the chemical reaction using the fuel. It may be possible to use liquefied gas, but (apart from violating you “compressed gas” clause) it would probably take more energy that could be extracted.

btm said:

btm said:

Spiny Norman said:

Would it possible to make a battery that can be recharged by refilling a compressed gas bottle?
Kinda like a hydrogen fuel cell but not, just a bit of a similar process.

Interesting question. The first thing that springs to mind is the hydrogen fuel cell, but you’ve excluded that. Another is a flow battery, like the vanadium redox battery, although that uses liquid electrolyte rather than gas. Otherwise, I don’t know. I’ll have to look into it.

Thinking about this some more, I don’t think it’s possible. The molecules in a gas — even highly compressed — are too far apart for efficient electron transfer, so a gas couldn’t be used directly as the electrolyte. It may be possible to dissolve the gas in another (liquid) material, but diffusion is far too slow and the liquid would be unusable after the chemical reaction using the fuel. It may be possible to use liquefied gas, but (apart from violating you “compressed gas” clause) it would probably take more energy that could be extracted.

You do know that there are methane fuel cells, don’t you? They operate at lower temperature than hydrogen fuel cells. You can actually feed it with natural gas. Methane fuel cell performance is sort of approaching that of hydrogen power cells (eg. 0.36 W/cm^2 for methane vs 0.55 to 1.5 W/cm^2 for hydrogen)

mollwollfumble said:

You do know that there are methane fuel cells, don’t you? They operate at lower temperature than hydrogen fuel cells. You can actually feed it with natural gas. Methane fuel cell performance is sort of approaching that of hydrogen power cells (eg. 0.36 W/cm^2 for methane vs 0.55 to 1.5 W/cm^2 for hydrogen)

Yes. There are a bunch of different types of fuel cell; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell . Do they count as batteries? If not, are they relevant to this question?

DV was right about hydrogen powered buses in Perth.

They were canned because of astronomical maintenance costs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/297003/geho0209bpin-e-e.pdf

Has a simple way to make fuel from water been found? Device splits H2O to create hydrogen and oxygen 24 hours a day

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3141220/Has-simple-way-make-fuel-water-Device-splits-H2O-make-hydrogen-oxygen-gas-24-hours-day.html#ixzz3eIqBBqO5
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

In simpler terms here is the conundrum, bend over and grasp your ankles, lift yourself of the ground, now carry yourself anywhere you want at any speed you want, the oil companies will do their best to surpress this.

dv said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

?

Perth had hydrogen buses a decade ago.

Yes it was a world first trial I think and I’ve heard nothing since

Cymek said:

dv said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Is it possible?

?

Perth had hydrogen buses a decade ago.

Yes it was a world first trial I think and I’ve heard nothing since

In terms of answering the question in the OP, that hardly matters. If hydrogen engines were in regular use 10 years ago then they must be possible.