Date: 1/08/2015 16:03:45
From: dv
ID: 755988
Subject: International Celestial Reference Frame

There was a time when the position and orbital parameters of objects within the solar system (and, indeed, without) were given in reference to the ecliptic plane and vernal equinox.

However the vernal equinox moves pretty quickly, and even the ecliptic plane moves, so astronomers and other off-earth enthusiasts now use the ICRF. This was first established in 1998 and significantly updated and improved in 2009 (as ICRF2).

The ICRF2 does not make reference to the ecliptic, the celestial equator, the equinoxes, but is instead based on very long base line interferometry of hundreds of extremely distant extragalactic sources (mainly, quasars), whose combined movement from year to year, or indeed from millennium to millennium, is not significant in comparison to the precision required for this purpose.

The coordinate system based on the ICRF2 is called the ICRS (International Celestial Reference System). The axes of the ICRS do roughly match the axes of the ecliptic-equinox based systems (as at year 2000), but are basically fixed (inertial). The gap between the ICRS and the ecliptic and equinox will increase over time.

Orbital elements for solar system objects that you encounter generally are likely to refer to the ICRS.

The ICRS is centred on the barycentre (centre of mass) of the solar system rather than the centre of the sun. The position of the barycentre with respect to the sun depends largely on the relative positions of the gas giants. The xy plane of the ICRS is inclined by about 1.5 degrees with respect to the invariable plane: this is the plane perpendicular to the total angular momentum of the solar system (which again is mainly influenced by the sun and the gas giants).

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2015 16:16:28
From: PermeateFree
ID: 755992
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

dv said:


There was a time when the position and orbital parameters of objects within the solar system (and, indeed, without) were given in reference to the ecliptic plane and vernal equinox.

However the vernal equinox moves pretty quickly, and even the ecliptic plane moves, so astronomers and other off-earth enthusiasts now use the ICRF. This was first established in 1998 and significantly updated and improved in 2009 (as ICRF2).

The ICRF2 does not make reference to the ecliptic, the celestial equator, the equinoxes, but is instead based on very long base line interferometry of hundreds of extremely distant extragalactic sources (mainly, quasars), whose combined movement from year to year, or indeed from millennium to millennium, is not significant in comparison to the precision required for this purpose.

The coordinate system based on the ICRF2 is called the ICRS (International Celestial Reference System). The axes of the ICRS do roughly match the axes of the ecliptic-equinox based systems (as at year 2000), but are basically fixed (inertial). The gap between the ICRS and the ecliptic and equinox will increase over time.

Orbital elements for solar system objects that you encounter generally are likely to refer to the ICRS.

The ICRS is centred on the barycentre (centre of mass) of the solar system rather than the centre of the sun. The position of the barycentre with respect to the sun depends largely on the relative positions of the gas giants. The xy plane of the ICRS is inclined by about 1.5 degrees with respect to the invariable plane: this is the plane perpendicular to the total angular momentum of the solar system (which again is mainly influenced by the sun and the gas giants).

Do you wish to ask a question?

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2015 16:17:23
From: dv
ID: 755993
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

PermeateFree said:

Do you wish to ask a question?

No but, happily, you’ve asked one.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2015 16:19:53
From: PermeateFree
ID: 755994
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

dv said:


PermeateFree said:

Do you wish to ask a question?

No but, happily, you’ve asked one.

Just trying to provide perspective.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2015 17:32:05
From: Ian
ID: 756019
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

..is very handy as many astronomers are pretty crap at identifying points in the night sky otherwise.

Reply Quote

Date: 2/08/2015 04:44:12
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 756201
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

> The ICRF2 does not make reference to the ecliptic, the celestial equator, the equinoxes, but is instead based on very long base line interferometry of hundreds of extremely distant extragalactic sources (mainly, quasars).

Good. I had suspected (and fervently hoped) that such a system existed. The positions and orientations of the Earth and solar system objects is not anywhere near stable enough.

> The position of the barycentre with respect to the sun depends largely on the relative positions of the gas giants.

I’ve been told that that is outside the surface of the Sun.

> The xy plane of the ICRS is inclined by about 1.5 degrees with respect to the plane perpendicular to the total angular momentum of the solar system.

Why?

Reply Quote

Date: 2/08/2015 10:30:06
From: dv
ID: 756263
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

mollwollfumble said:

> The xy plane of the ICRS is inclined by about 1.5 degrees with respect to the plane perpendicular to the total angular momentum of the solar system.

Why?

They wanted to start off by having it broadly similar to the old ecliptic system. (Note that the ecliptic is also inclined at about 1.5 degrees with respect to the Invariable plane.)

Funnily enough, the invariable plane is not truly invariable as it is in fact turned somwhat by tidal forces of other stars, but it changes vvvvvvery slowly.

Reply Quote

Date: 2/08/2015 10:39:10
From: JudgeMental
ID: 756271
Subject: re: International Celestial Reference Frame

“Why would you listen to an astronomer about a planet? … You really should listen to planetary scientists that know something about this subject.”

wouldn’t the planetary scientists be a little busy rewriting “the planet and solar system formation” theory handbook in light of all the strange extrasolar discoveries?

Reply Quote