Date: 17/09/2015 00:06:07
From: dv
ID: 776649
Subject: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

NASA researchers have discovered a global ocean underneath the icy surface of Saturn’s moon Enceladus.

Previous data from NASA’s Cassini space mission revealed there was steam, liquid and ice located in the south pole of the moon.

But now scientists believe the vast water reservoir is coming from an ocean between the moon’s rocky core and icy crust.

They found Enceladus has a slight wobble as it orbits Saturn, indicating that the ocean should extend across the entire moon.

—-

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-16/nasa-mission-finds-global-ocean-on-saturn-moon/6780456

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Date: 17/09/2015 00:07:48
From: dv
ID: 776650
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

This looks like a job for …

seismic

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Date: 17/09/2015 00:12:17
From: Bubblecar
ID: 776651
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Assuming there’s no life down there, I wonder how easy it would be to establish terrestrial marine life in such an environment.

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Date: 17/09/2015 00:25:34
From: dv
ID: 776659
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Bubblecar said:


Assuming there’s no life down there, I wonder how easy it would be to establish terrestrial marine life in such an environment.

The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

There exists beneath the water a rocky core and there is considerable dispute about its temperature. If it is warm then perhaps there exist the equivalents of our “black smokers” and other warm vents that could provide a stream of nutrients, warmth and high oxidation-state compounds: that might be a better bet than the shallower, colder water, but I am not an expert.

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Date: 17/09/2015 00:26:03
From: diddly-squat
ID: 776661
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

dv said:


This looks like a job for …

seismic

I’m imagining the designing that particular acquisition program won’t be too much of a problem…

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Date: 17/09/2015 00:45:02
From: dv
ID: 776666
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

diddly-squat said:


dv said:

This looks like a job for …

seismic

I’m imagining the designing that particular acquisition program won’t be too much of a problem…

Ambient noise should be low…
Not many stakeholders to negotiate with …

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Date: 17/09/2015 00:46:55
From: diddly-squat
ID: 776668
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

dv said:


diddly-squat said:

dv said:

This looks like a job for …

seismic

I’m imagining the designing that particular acquisition program won’t be too much of a problem…

Ambient noise should be low…
Not many stakeholders to negotiate with …

8)

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:22:24
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 776867
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

>>The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

What do these contemporary macroscopic thingies live on?
I don’t know what you’re saying there.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:24:05
From: dv
ID: 776868
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Peak Warming Man said:


>>The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

What do these contemporary macroscopic thingies live on?
I don’t know what you’re saying there.

Typo. Replace live with life.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:24:16
From: AwesomeO
ID: 776869
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Peak Warming Man said:


>>The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

What do these contemporary macroscopic thingies live on?
I don’t know what you’re saying there.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:25:59
From: AwesomeO
ID: 776871
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Oops sorry. It is starting to seem, from this system at least, water in the solar system is not rate at all. Liquid water might be. But reserves of frozen water all over the place bode well for space space space.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:28:04
From: dv
ID: 776873
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

AwesomeO said:


Oops sorry. It is starting to seem, from this system at least, water in the solar system is not rate at all. Liquid water might be. But reserves of frozen water all over the place bode well for space space space.

Well I think it has been a very long time since anyone thought water was rare in the solar system. You would have to go back to the seventies at least.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:33:09
From: AwesomeO
ID: 776879
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

dv said:


AwesomeO said:

Oops sorry. It is starting to seem, from this system at least, water in the solar system is not rate at all. Liquid water might be. But reserves of frozen water all over the place bode well for space space space.

Well I think it has been a very long time since anyone thought water was rare in the solar system. You would have to go back to the seventies at least.

When I said from this system I meant the example from this to the universe. I was not aware it was current thinking that water was common across the universe, it may be current thinking so I am obviously out of touch.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:34:33
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 776880
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

dv said:


Peak Warming Man said:

>>The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

What do these contemporary macroscopic thingies live on?
I don’t know what you’re saying there.

Typo. Replace live with life.

Yeah I got that, are you saying there could be life without nutrients, just water and maybe a bit of sun.
Let’s start with what is the very minimum needed to sustain a life form that we know of.

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Date: 17/09/2015 15:50:25
From: dv
ID: 776890
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Peak Warming Man said:


dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

>>The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

What do these contemporary macroscopic thingies live on?
I don’t know what you’re saying there.

Typo. Replace live with life.

Yeah I got that, are you saying there could be life without nutrients, just water and maybe a bit of sun.
Let’s start with what is the very minimum needed to sustain a life form that we know of.

No, I am not saying that at all. I said that “contemporary macroscopic life on earth tends to like oxidated environments”: ie environments that have O2 or at least some high oxidation state compounds. I contrasted that to the shallow waters on Enceladus which are likely to be anoxic.

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Date: 17/09/2015 16:02:46
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 776893
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Is it possible to have life with a different liquid to water? say a hydrocarbon?

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Date: 17/09/2015 16:20:08
From: Dropbear
ID: 776902
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

bob(from black rock) said:


Is it possible to have life with a different liquid to water? say a hydrocarbon?

Not as we know it

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Date: 17/09/2015 16:45:59
From: PermeateFree
ID: 776907
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

We have our Snowball Earth as a comparison, which came very close to killing off life at the time. This period is known as “The Marinoan glaciation was a period of worldwide glaciation that lasted from approximately 650 to 635 Ma (million years ago) during the Cryogenian period. The glaciation may have covered the entire planet, in an event called the Snowball Earth.” It was thought that the temperatures around the Equator at the time were similar to today’s polar regions.

“A tremendous glaciation would curtail photosynthetic life on Earth, thus letting the atmospheric oxygen be drastically depleted and perhaps even disappear, and thus allow non-oxidized iron-rich rocks to form. Probable refuges for life probably were:
Deep oceanic hydrothermal vents.
Deep-frozen eggs, dormant cells and spores.
Under ice layers.
In pockets of liquid water within and under the ice caps, similar to Lake Vostok in Antarctica.
In small oases of liquid water, as would be found near geothermal hotspots resembling Iceland today.”

Such habitats it they exist on Enceladus, may enable life to exist there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

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Date: 17/09/2015 17:24:02
From: dv
ID: 776910
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

AwesomeO said:


dv said:

AwesomeO said:

Oops sorry. It is starting to seem, from this system at least, water in the solar system is not rate at all. Liquid water might be. But reserves of frozen water all over the place bode well for space space space.

Well I think it has been a very long time since anyone thought water was rare in the solar system. You would have to go back to the seventies at least.

When I said from this system I meant the example from this to the universe. I was not aware it was current thinking that water was common across the universe, it may be current thinking so I am obviously out of touch.

(shrugs)
I mean let’s talk about what “rare” means. On one hand, water is easy to find in our solar system. On the other hand it makes up only a tiny fraction of the mass of our solar system. There has been water detected on a number of exoplanets now.

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Date: 17/09/2015 17:31:46
From: dv
ID: 776913
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

bob(from black rock) said:


Is it possible to have life with a different liquid to water? say a hydrocarbon?

Hydrocarbons would not be much chop because they cannot dissolve electrolytes such as salts and acids, they have no autoionising potential, so they don’t assist much in precipitation reactions and electron transfers that we associate with any kind of life comparable to what we know

Some authors (and I admit I lack the skills to determine the strength of their claims) suggest that ammonia could possibly support life: it has an autoionising potential, it can do the things that I mention above (albeit, not as well as water).

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Date: 17/09/2015 17:39:10
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 776922
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

How about alcohol? as a reformed “pisshead” I would like to think so.

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Date: 17/09/2015 17:41:09
From: dv
ID: 776923
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

bob(from black rock) said:


How about alcohol? as a reformed “pisshead” I would like to think so.

Alcohol could also be a goer.

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Date: 17/09/2015 17:44:57
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 776925
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

dv said:


bob(from black rock) said:

How about alcohol? as a reformed “pisshead” I would like to think so.

Alcohol could also be a goer.

Brake fluid??? Hydro carbons?

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Date: 17/09/2015 17:48:40
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 776927
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

bob(from black rock) said:


dv said:

bob(from black rock) said:

How about alcohol? as a reformed “pisshead” I would like to think so.

Alcohol could also be a goer.

Brake fluid??? Hydro carbons?

Mercury???

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Date: 17/09/2015 18:22:20
From: dv
ID: 776939
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

Brake fluid and hydrocarbons maybe not.

Dunno about Hg.

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Date: 18/09/2015 01:25:54
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 777034
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

A chart showing 10 of the likeliest ocean worlds in our solar system

This chart shows all 10 of the likeliest ocean worlds in space

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Date: 20/09/2015 21:43:58
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 778489
Subject: re: Nasa confirms vast ocean on Enceladus.

dv said:


Bubblecar said:

Assuming there’s no life down there, I wonder how easy it would be to establish terrestrial marine life in such an environment.

The liquid is quite deep and we can expect it to be anoxic and cool. Contemporary macroscopic live on earth tends to like oxidated environments. There are extremophiles (Archae) on earth that could deal with such an environment but not fish or molluscs etc.

There exists beneath the water a rocky core and there is considerable dispute about its temperature. If it is warm then perhaps there exist the equivalents of our “black smokers” and other warm vents that could provide a stream of nutrients, warmth and high oxidation-state compounds: that might be a better bet than the shallower, colder water, but I am not an expert.

I’m going to agree and disagree. First of all, there cannot be any dispute about temperature because the transition from liquid to solid occurs at a temperature that is almost completely independent of pressure. That means that the top of the liquid ocean is going to be close to 2 degrees C, suitably cold for most types of oceanic life on Earth. The bottom of the ocean in Enceladus is going to be much hotter than 100 degrees C, so every form of oceanic life on Earth could find a comfortable temperature zone in Enceladus ocean. P.S. I cave already calculated these temperatures for all the solar system objects likely to or known to have subsurface oceans.

As for oxidation state, that hadn’t occurred to me, and it doesn’t matter much. We know that carbon-based life can only be abiologically generated in a reducing environment, so you are MUCH more likely to find living organisms in a reducing environment than in an oxidising environment. The first blue-green algae got an enormous competitive advantage by polluting its environment with oxygen, killing off almost all of its competitors. Anaerobic archaea and bacteria still haven’t recovered from that toxic atmospheric oxygen pollution.

I agree that black smokers near the bottom of Enceladus ocean may be producing sulphur rich water that single and multicellular lifeforms could live off. But I’m firmly of the opinion that we don’t know yet whether the probability of formation of life in that environment is more like 100% or one in 10 to the power minus 5 million. (See Topic 13 of “Topics in astronomy”).

I expect Enceladus ocean to have no life in it, in which case we could export an ecosystem there – it would have a much better chance of permanent survival than on the surface of Mars. But in some cases (such as humans in scuba gear) it would take a while for exported lifeforms to acclimatise to the very high pressures.

The ocean of Enceladus would survive the expansion of the Sun into a red giant. The ocean of Earth definitely would not.

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