Does a conscious creature (and of non-organic) require half a working theory of consciousness (regarding its own) to be conscious, and would a complete (or near complete – it believed so) theory be more convincing than a half a theory and work in progress.

Is it a characteristic of consciousness (partly what generates it) that it is a work in progress, and that it’s inexact and never complete.

transition said:

Does a conscious creature (and of non-organic) require half a working theory of consciousness (regarding its own) to be conscious, and would a complete (or near complete – it believed so) theory be more convincing than a half a theory and work in progress.

Is it a characteristic of consciousness (partly what generates it) that it is a work in progress, and that it’s inexact and never complete.

You’ll have to explain the question better than that. What is “half a working theory”? And why should consciousness be a “work in progress”.

>half a working theory”?

what you and I work with every day, I presume.

don’t take half too literally

I’d what say what we refer to as consciousness is a process rather than an entity, and only partly a conscious process.

Consciousness of consciousness is something of a feedback loop.

Is it a characteristic of consciousness (partly what generates it) that it is a work in progress, and that it’s inexact and never complete? … I’d what say what we refer to as consciousness is a process rather than an entity, and only partly a conscious process.

That’s a big “yes” then. I agree.

What i’m getting at is that a theory of mind must go some way to being a theory of consciousness, even if not (mostly) in words/ed.
The other thing i’m getting at is that it (the mind) feels (senses of itself) to be incomplete, inexact, something of constant work/effort and revision. Keen as the representational apparatus is, some of the impetus for knowing may be a consequence of the limitations (its economy, and application – awareness of, a feel for).

can you have memory without memory fails?
can you walk a straight line without errors to correct from?
can you have (self-)awarenesses without absences?
can you consider the qualities of an infinity without a concept of the qualities of 1?
can you have a concept of the qualities of 1 without a concept of 0?
can you be self-aware (conscious) without in some way sensing it has limitations?

transition said:

What i’m getting at is that a theory of mind must go some way to being a theory of consciousness, even if not (mostly) in words/ed.
The other thing i’m getting at is that it (the mind) feels (senses of itself) to be incomplete, inexact, something of constant work/effort and revision. Keen as the representational apparatus is, some of the impetus for knowing may be a consequence of the limitations (its economy, and application – awareness of, a feel for).

can you have memory without memory fails?
can you walk a straight line without errors to correct from?
can you have (self-)awarenesses without absences?
can you consider the qualities of an infinity without a concept of the qualities of 1?
can you have a concept of the qualities of 1 without a concept of 0?
can you be self-aware (conscious) without in some way sensing it has limitations?

What if consciousness is only electrical energy in the brain?

transition said:

What i’m getting at is that a theory of mind must go some way to being a theory of consciousness, even if not (mostly) in words/ed.
The other thing i’m getting at is that it (the mind) feels (senses of itself) to be incomplete, inexact, something of constant work/effort and revision. Keen as the representational apparatus is, some of the impetus for knowing may be a consequence of the limitations (its economy, and application – awareness of, a feel for).

can you have memory without memory fails?
can you walk a straight line without errors to correct from?
can you have (self-)awarenesses without absences?
can you consider the qualities of an infinity without a concept of the qualities of 1?
can you have a concept of the qualities of 1 without a concept of 0?
can you be self-aware (conscious) without in some way sensing it has limitations?

OK, I’ll say yes, No and maybe.

can you be self-aware (conscious) without in some way sensing it has limitations?

—-

To consider a universe inside a multiverse leads to the limits of our understanding.
To have a universe where time might not have a beginning or end, really stretches our understanding of infinity.

>What if consciousness is only electrical energy in the brain?

you can probably see it any way you like for your individual purposes

transition said:

>What if consciousness is only electrical energy in the brain?

you can probably see it any way you like for your individual purposes

What about for scientific purposes?

>What if consciousness is only electrical energy in the brain?

you explain first what only ^ means, not to me, later maybe to me, and we’ll pick things up from there if you like.

transition said:

>What if consciousness is only electrical energy in the brain?

you explain first what only ^ means, not to me, later maybe to me, and we’ll pick things up from there if you like.

Things only attached to and part of the human body.

CrazyNeutrino said:

transition said:

>What if consciousness is only electrical energy in the brain?

you explain first what only ^ means, not to me, later maybe to me, and we’ll pick things up from there if you like.

Things only attached to and part of the human body.

Can sensory perception be deceiving?

>Things only attached to and part of the human body.

do you reckon blood flowing around your body and blood pressure contribute much to (your) consciousness.

how about the bio-history of all your ancestor going way back, hundreds of thousands of years, or millions. Or even the kindredness with your own species from your lifetime only, if you’d like to ignore that history.

transition said:

>Things only attached to and part of the human body.

do you reckon blood flowing around your body and blood pressure contribute much to (your) consciousness.

how about the bio-history of all your ancestor going way back, hundreds of thousands of years, or millions. Or even the kindredness with your own species from your lifetime only, if you’d like to ignore that history.

Well without blood flow around the body consciousness will fail. Second para is a bit mixed, kindredness with your own species, well yes, and other species as well. Bio-history, what do you mean by that? An instinctive memory from ancestors? Yeah, why not, if ants and antelopes can manifest instinct no reason why humans don’t possess it.

transition said:

>Things only attached to and part of the human body.

do you reckon blood flowing around your body and blood pressure contribute much to (your) consciousness.

how about the bio-history of all your ancestor going way back, hundreds of thousands of years, or millions. Or even the kindredness with your own species from your lifetime only, if you’d like to ignore that history.

DNA And RNA molecules can carry passed on information

this is well known

the other theory about our brain is that its only half of the equation, its the nerves from the stomach that affect out brain and there are many of them

we shouldn’t assume that the brain per se is the seat of all consciousness, its the connection point for nerves across the body , the autonomic nervous system makes decisions before we are even aware of the need to do things and the brain is effectively left out of the decision initially

depression they are suggesting now could be related to stomach health – believe it or not

>Well without blood flow around the body consciousness will fail.

Was getting at the feel of mental activity (well, of internal mental states) has about it something from having blood (pressure and flow), probably being warm too, and that going into basic homeostasis (body temp regulation, and fuel being burned), so i’m saying that’s likely an imporatant aspect of the human organic experience (we’re fleshy). I’d say things like perspiration add to that experience. To mention just a few.

>Second para is a bit mixed, kindredness with your own species, well yes, and other species as well. Bio-history, what do you mean by that? An instinctive memory from ancestors? Yeah, why not, if ants and antelopes can manifest instinct no reason why humans don’t possess it.

True, mixed, was listening music about to go watch TV. Wasn’t a complete derailment.

You did well, was getting to philogeny, and ontogeny. Further, consider to the enterprise of looking back, way back, taking that into the future.

>the other theory about our brain is that its only half of the equation, its the nerves from the stomach that affect out brain and there are many of them

I been following that too, it is interesting.

Doesnt seem entirely daft, I mean you have mental states, if you said how’s your tummy state you could probably tell me.

transition said:

>Well without blood flow around the body consciousness will fail.

Was getting at the feel of mental activity (well, of internal mental states) has about it something from having blood (pressure and flow), probably being warm too, and that going into basic homeostasis (body temp regulation, and fuel being burned), so i’m saying that’s likely an imporatant aspect of the human organic experience (we’re fleshy). I’d say things like perspiration add to that experience. To mention just a few.

Yes, all of those are a part of consciousness combined with physiological responses. Feeling warm, pain etc. and when you are feeling very very cold those physiological responses might become mixed and might make you feel incredibly hot. Fatigued and starving might make you feel transcendental. They are all aspects of consciousness and you are arguing about how much of that is compromised and what it is that the consciousness is responding to.

>They are all aspects of consciousness

I got derailed was encouraging CN to maybe justify or soften re it’s just electrical energy

Anyway, lady has made cup of tea, then get bedroom fire going

Nightio

AwesomeO said:

transition said:

>Well without blood flow around the body consciousness will fail.

Was getting at the feel of mental activity (well, of internal mental states) has about it something from having blood (pressure and flow), probably being warm too, and that going into basic homeostasis (body temp regulation, and fuel being burned), so i’m saying that’s likely an imporatant aspect of the human organic experience (we’re fleshy). I’d say things like perspiration add to that experience. To mention just a few.

Yes, all of those are a part of consciousness combined with physiological responses. Feeling warm, pain etc. and when you are feeling very very cold those physiological responses might become mixed and might make you feel incredibly hot. Fatigued and starving might make you feel transcendental. They are all aspects of consciousness and you are arguing about how much of that is compromised and what it is that the consciousness is responding to.

Adequate oxygen is vital for the brain

http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/traumatic-brain-injury-types/anoxic-brain-injury/index.html

Adequate oxygen is vital for the brain. Many factors can cause the brain to receive inadequate oxygen. When oxygen levels are significantly low for four minutes or longer, brain cells begin to die and after five minutes permanent anoxic brain injury can occur. Anoxic brain injury which is also called cerebral hypoxia or hypoxic-anoxic injury (HAI) is a serious, life-threatening injury; it can cause cognitive problems and disabilities. Some HAI injuries are due to a partial lack of oxygen; the term hypoxic means partial lack. Other HAI injuries are due to a complete lack of oxygen; the term anoxic means total lack. The greater the loss of oxygen, the more wide-spread and serious the injury will be.
The Brain’s Dependance on Oxygen

The death of brain cells interrupts the brain’s electrochemical impulses and interferes with the performance of neurotransmitters—the chemical messengers which transmit messages within the brain. The neurotransmitters regulate body functions and influence behavior. For example, the neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine help regulate moods, while the endorphins increase pleasure and control pain. The neurotransmitter acetylcholine plays an important role in memory.

4 minutes and longer without blood will lead to Death

some people can act like they have HAI injuries

/tic

the brain is electro chemical like the rest of the body

CrazyNeutrino said:

AwesomeO said:

transition said:

>Well without blood flow around the body consciousness will fail.

Was getting at the feel of mental activity (well, of internal mental states) has about it something from having blood (pressure and flow), probably being warm too, and that going into basic homeostasis (body temp regulation, and fuel being burned), so i’m saying that’s likely an imporatant aspect of the human organic experience (we’re fleshy). I’d say things like perspiration add to that experience. To mention just a few.

Yes, all of those are a part of consciousness combined with physiological responses. Feeling warm, pain etc. and when you are feeling very very cold those physiological responses might become mixed and might make you feel incredibly hot. Fatigued and starving might make you feel transcendental. They are all aspects of consciousness and you are arguing about how much of that is compromised and what it is that the consciousness is responding to.

Adequate oxygen is vital for the brain

http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/traumatic-brain-injury-types/anoxic-brain-injury/index.html

Adequate oxygen is vital for the brain. Many factors can cause the brain to receive inadequate oxygen. When oxygen levels are significantly low for four minutes or longer, brain cells begin to die and after five minutes permanent anoxic brain injury can occur. Anoxic brain injury which is also called cerebral hypoxia or hypoxic-anoxic injury (HAI) is a serious, life-threatening injury; it can cause cognitive problems and disabilities. Some HAI injuries are due to a partial lack of oxygen; the term hypoxic means partial lack. Other HAI injuries are due to a complete lack of oxygen; the term anoxic means total lack. The greater the loss of oxygen, the more wide-spread and serious the injury will be.
The Brain’s Dependance on Oxygen

The death of brain cells interrupts the brain’s electrochemical impulses and interferes with the performance of neurotransmitters—the chemical messengers which transmit messages within the brain. The neurotransmitters regulate body functions and influence behavior. For example, the neurotransmitters serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine help regulate moods, while the endorphins increase pleasure and control pain. The neurotransmitter acetylcholine plays an important role in memory.

4 minutes and longer without blood will lead to Death

some people can act like they have HAI injuries

/tic

the brain is electro chemical like the rest of the body

If you are quoting me for a reason, I do not deny at all that the brain is electro chemical like the rest of the body.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia

Cerebral hypoxia is a form of hypoxia (reduced supply of oxygen) specifically involving the brain; when the brain is completely deprived of oxygen it is called cerebral anoxia. There are four categories of cerebral hypoxia; they are, in order of severity: diffuse cerebral hypoxia (DCH), focal cerebral ischemia, cerebral infarction, and global cerebral ischemia. Prolonged hypoxia induces neuronal cell death via apoptosis, resulting in a hypoxic brain injury.

Cases of total oxygen deprivation are termed “anoxia”, which can be hypoxic in origin (reduced oxygen availability) or ischemic in origin (oxygen deprivation due to a disruption in blood flow). Brain injury as a result of oxygen deprivation either due to hypoxic or anoxic mechanisms are generally termed hypoxic/anoxic injuries (HAI). Hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy (HIE) is a condition that occurs when the entire brain is deprived of an adequate oxygen supply, but the deprivation is not total. While HIE is associated in most cases with oxygen deprivation in the neonate due to birth asphyxia, it can occur in all age groups, and is often a complication of cardiac arrest.

>>>If you are quoting me for a reason, I do not deny at all that the brain is electro chemical like the rest of the body.

Didn’t mean to quote you,

Sorry about that

some people can act like they have HAI injuries

Tony Abbott for example

he has existed without oxygen for some time

CrazyNeutrino said:

some people can act like they have HAI injuries

Tony Abbott for example

he has existed without oxygen for some time

No one on this forum mind you

Interesting theory

Has you know Consciousness in the brain must have a blood flow

sorry for posting information that everyone knew

transition said:

What i’m getting at is that a theory of mind must go some way to being a theory of consciousness, even if not (mostly) in words/ed.
The other thing i’m getting at is that it (the mind) feels (senses of itself) to be incomplete, inexact, something of constant work/effort and revision. Keen as the representational apparatus is, some of the impetus for knowing may be a consequence of the limitations (its economy, and application – awareness of, a feel for).

can you have memory without memory fails?
can you walk a straight line without errors to correct from?
can you have (self-)awarenesses without absences?
can you consider the qualities of an infinity without a concept of the qualities of 1?
can you have a concept of the qualities of 1 without a concept of 0?
can you be self-aware (conscious) without in some way sensing it has limitations?

This isn’t a direct answer, but it may be the answer you’re looking for.

> can you consider the qualities of an infinity without a concept of the qualities of 1?

Aristotle distinguished between two different types of infinity, “potential infinity” that can never be reached, and “actual infinity” than can be formally described. I’ve been looking in great detail into “actual infinity” and can say with great confidence than none of the dozen or so different types of actual infinity (eg. aleph null) can be conceived without a concept of the qualities of 1. On the other hand, you can consider the qualities of “potential infinity” without a concept of the qualities of “1”. A simple example is “infinity is huger than huge”, and we can get more subtle qualities of “potential infinity” than that – for example I can quote without trying a dozen or so different paradoxes involving infinity. All of these shed some light on the nature of “potential infinity”. Many mathematicians, perhaps even most mathematicians, are quite happy to deny the existence of “actual infinity”. There was a recent TV documentary about infinity that spent a full hour talking about “potential infinity” without even once mentioning “actual infinity”.

Douglas Adams gives a good definition of “potential infinity”. “Infinite: Bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some. Much bigger than that in fact, really amazingly immense, a totally stunning size, “wow, that’s big”, time. Infinity is just so big that by comparison, bigness itself looks really titchy. Gigantic multiplied by colossal multiplied by staggeringly huge is the sort of concept we’re trying to get across here.”

So to answer, we can consider the qualities of an infinity without a concept of the qualities of 1. But our knowledge of infinity becomes much richer when se do have a concept of the qualities of 1.

Now, generalising that by turning it back to the original question, this answer may also be the answer to every other question you’ve answered. eg. You can be self-aware (conscious) without in some way sensing it has limitations, but sensing the limitations adds extra depth to the understanding.

Generalising it even further, an ancient question of philosophy is “can you have goodness without evil?”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil The simplest answer is “Yes you can, but having evil sharpens your perception of what it means to be good”. Bringing that back to the topic of consciousness, remember Hamlet’s “there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so”, our consciousness interacts with concepts such as good to bring it back into the theory of mind.

Am I waffling here?

> A simple example is “infinity is huger than huge”

Consider for example the definition “infinity is the only number that is larger than itself”. This and similar statements can be codified mathematically, and don’t depend on any knowledge of the properties of 1.

mollwollfumble said:

> A simple example is “infinity is huger than huge”

Consider for example the definition “infinity is the only number that is larger than itself”. This and similar statements can be codified mathematically, and don’t depend on any knowledge of the properties of 1.

How can it be larger than itself when it doesn’t have a defined largeness?

Please show mathematical coding.

“ A simple example is “infinity is huger than huge”,”

Since hugeness requires a knowledge of the concept of 1, how does this definition of infinity not require a knowledge of the concept of 1.

What is the difference between a “potential” and “actual” infinity?

The Rev Dodgson said:

“ A simple example is “infinity is huger than huge”,”

Since hugeness requires a knowledge of the concept of 1, how does this definition of infinity not require a knowledge of the concept of 1.

What is the difference between a “potential” and “actual” infinity?

sucks air through teeth

Potential infinity is more like near infinity, it’s close to infinity, very close, probably in the order of 0.99 of infinity and it has the potential to go that one last bit to actual infinity if you don’t watch it.

>“potential infinity” that can never be reached

Actual infinity can never be reached either, as its formal description tells us.

Bubblecar said:

>“potential infinity” that can never be reached

Actual infinity can never be reached either, as its formal description tells us.

Actually that’s an inappropriate way of putting it. Although one type of infinity is countable, there’s no end to the counting. So it’s not really meaningful to say “infinity can never be reached”, because it implies that infinity resides unreachably “at the end”. But there isn’t any end.

Bubblecar said:

Bubblecar said:

>“potential infinity” that can never be reached

Actual infinity can never be reached either, as its formal description tells us.

Actually that’s an inappropriate way of putting it. Although one type of infinity is countable, there’s no end to the counting. So it’s not really meaningful to say “infinity can never be reached”, because it implies that infinity resides unreachably “at the end”. But there isn’t any end.

I remember one day, it was a slow day, overcast and raining, not much happening that I decided to count to infinity.
I was going pretty well until around 3:00 pm when I lost count, I don’t know how far I’d got, probably getting up towards halfway I’d say. Anyway I was buggered if I was going to start again so I went and did something else, read the paper or some such.

There’s some theologian who claimed that time can’t be infinite, because “it would have taken an infinite length of time to reach now”. But he didn’t bother specifying “from when”. In fact the distance between any two points on a time line is always finite, even if the line itself is infinite.

His life’s seconds numbering tick tock tick tock
but it stopped short, never to go again
when the old man died.

>>Am I waffling here?

No, very Interesting

Maybe B.C. meant potential infinity rather than actual infinity when he was referring to nearly infinite?

CrazyNeutrino said:

>>Am I waffling here?

No, very Interesting

Maybe B.C. meant potential infinity rather than actual infinity when he was referring to nearly infinite?

How about infinity to the power of infinity? Oh shit! have I just destroyed the Universe??