I was reading a scifi where the good guys set off a high-altitude nuclear EMP weapon over Chicago.

It got me wondering. I know the advertising blurb – an EMP device fries unprotected electronic circuits even if they’re not connected to a power supply.

But what would an EMP device (nuclear or hand-held) really do? Would it electrocute dolphins? Would it set aluminium window frames on fire? Or crack mirrors? Or give everyone a grand mal seizure?

mollwollfumble said:

I was reading a scifi where the good guys set off a high-altitude nuclear EMP weapon over Chicago.

It got me wondering. I know the advertising blurb – an EMP device fries unprotected electronic circuits even if they’re not connected to a power supply.

But what would an EMP device (nuclear or hand-held) really do? Would it electrocute dolphins? Would it set aluminium window frames on fire? Or crack mirrors? Or give everyone a grand mal seizure?

Define EMP, please.

• Define EMP, please

Electo-Magnetic Pulse…

An electromagnetic pulse (EMP), also sometimes called a transient electromagnetic disturbance, is a short burst of electromagnetic energy. Such a pulse may occur in the form of a radiated, electric or magnetic field or a conducted electric current depending on the source, and may be natural or man-made. The term “electromagnetic pulse” is commonly abbreviated to the initialism EMP (which is pronounced by saying the letters separately, “E-M-P”).

EMP interference is generally disruptive or damaging to electronic equipment, and at higher energy levels a powerful EMP event such as a lightning strike can damage physical objects such as buildings and aircraft structures. The management of EMP effects is an important branch of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) engineering.

The damaging effects of high-energy EMP have been used to create EMP weapons. These are typically divided into nuclear and non-nuclear devices. Such weapons, both real and fictional, are becoming known to the public by means of popular culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

I first encountered EMP grenades in the game Deus Ex around the turn of the century.

So sunspotty, solar windy type disturbances? Auroras?

• I first encountered EMP grenades in the game Deus Ex around the turn of the century.

They used a fictional EMP device in Ocean’s 11 (the remake) …

• So sunspotty, solar windy type disturbances? Auroras?

Well, apparently, heightened solar activity can reek havoc on satellites…

furious said:

• So sunspotty, solar windy type disturbances? Auroras?

Well, apparently, heightened solar activity can reek havoc on satellites…

Wasn’t there a big power outage in Canada some years ago from something like that?

• Wasn’t there a big power outage in Canada some years ago from something like that?

Possibly. There was another, much longer ago, that was of a magnitude that could be trouble on the ground today…

The solar storm of 1859, also known as the Carrington event, was a powerful geomagnetic solar storm

“Studies have shown that a solar storm of this magnitude occurring today would likely cause widespread problems for modern civilization. The solar storm of 2012 was of similar magnitude, but it passed Earth’s orbit without striking the planet.”

Was probably 2012, then, that annoyed Canada.

A solar storm is not the same as an EMP.

• A solar storm is not the same as an EMP.

Doesn’t it disrupt electrics in the same fashion or is there a different mechanism?

• Was probably 2012, then, that annoyed Canada.

That one missed but this one refers to Canada:

The solar storm of 2012 that almost sent us back to a post-apocalyptic Stone Age

“Prior to the July 2012 storm, the largest recorded storm was the Carrington Event of 1859. A massive solar flare and CME struck Earth, destroying much of the Victorian telegraph network in Europe and North America. Other solar storms have hit Earth since then, but fortunately we’ve only been hit by one large storm during modern times, which caused the 1989 Quebec blackout.”

furious said:

• A solar storm is not the same as an EMP.

Doesn’t it disrupt electrics in the same fashion or is there a different mechanism?

Different mechanism. They are both electromagnetic radiation but one is a short, sharp, very high energy pulse which disrupts electrocnics by zapping semiconductor junctions. A solar storm sets up currents flowing in long transmission lines which then blows up transformers etc. It will have no effect on small junction devices.

• Different mechanism. They are both electromagnetic radiation but one is a short, sharp, very high energy pulse which disrupts electrocnics by zapping semiconductor junctions. A solar storm sets up currents flowing in long transmission lines which then blows up transformers etc. It will have no effect on small junction devices.

Thanks.

Would a well designed Faraday cage around a bunch of electronics/computers prevent EMP damage?

Yes.

The Russian Mig-25 used vacuum tubes in the avionics, partly as the are not susceptible to EMP like solid state junction are.

Could you use a Faraday cage around a satellite or parts of the space station?

could a Faraday cage protect an astronaut working outside the station?

something like a shark cage but would have to be way more flexible

CrazyNeutrino said:

Would a well designed Faraday cage around a bunch of electronics/computers prevent EMP damage?

That’s part of my original question. It would help, but would a nuclear EMP melt the Faraday cage?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Could you use a Faraday cage around a satellite or parts of the space station?
could a Faraday cage protect an astronaut working outside the station?
something like a shark cage but would have to be way more flexible

No, no, well perhaps. Cosmic and gamma rays in space are not even remotely like an EMP.

A Faraday cage will only protect a satellite against radio waves and microwaves, not against IR, visible, UV, X-rays, gamma rays or cosmic rays. Gamma and cosmic rays are the most damaging.

I say perhaps, because I have seen a proposal for a colossal Moon-sited static-electricity system that has the potential to protect against the low-energy range of cosmic rays (not EM waves).

I think it would, otherwise militaries would not harden electronics against EMP. Incidentally, wild weasel missions not only use emissions seeking missiles, they can pour down thousands of watts of energy tuned to destroy electronic systems. There is also the electronic confetti used to short out and destroy national grids. All different aspects of electronic warfare.

Electronic confetti is a bad word, metallic and carbon confetti is better.

mollwollfumble said:

That’s part of my original question. It would help, but would a nuclear EMP melt the Faraday cage?

No, no no. A nuke EMP is set off way high in the atmosphere. Semiconductor junctions are fragile little beasts, which is why people working on them take ESD precautions. A few thousand volts and poof, it’s rooted. The voltage levels set up across a Faraday cage may heat up the copper a degree or two, but that’s about it. Even though the energy spike is quite large the power is quite low as it appears for such a short duration.

buffy said:

furious said:

• So sunspotty, solar windy type disturbances? Auroras?

Well, apparently, heightened solar activity can reek havoc on satellites…

Wasn’t there a big power outage in Canada some years ago from something like that?

that was a cascading effect caused by the way the protection system was set up I think

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

That’s part of my original question. It would help, but would a nuclear EMP melt the Faraday cage?

No, no no. A nuke EMP is set off way high in the atmosphere. Semiconductor junctions are fragile little beasts, which is why people working on them take ESD precautions. A few thousand volts and poof, it’s rooted. The voltage levels set up across a Faraday cage may heat up the copper a degree or two, but that’s about it. Even though the energy spike is quite large the power is quite low as it appears for such a short duration.

I’ve only ever seen two places ever worry about ESD, TAFE and a calibration and testing lab – everyone else feels very happy to handle fragile and susceptible electronics with their hands with no precautions

the brains of military aircraft are protected from the EMP of nuclear explosions, especially if they are designed to carry nuclear missiles/ bombs to a target

Russia would be set up to deal with electronic warfare aircraft as they are set up to fight NATO, their spy network that’s burrowed its way deeply into the western power structures would mean they have all our plans regarding these devices

wookiemeister said:

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

That’s part of my original question. It would help, but would a nuclear EMP melt the Faraday cage?

No, no no. A nuke EMP is set off way high in the atmosphere. Semiconductor junctions are fragile little beasts, which is why people working on them take ESD precautions. A few thousand volts and poof, it’s rooted. The voltage levels set up across a Faraday cage may heat up the copper a degree or two, but that’s about it. Even though the energy spike is quite large the power is quite low as it appears for such a short duration.

I’ve only ever seen two places ever worry about ESD, TAFE and a calibration and testing lab – everyone else feels very happy to handle fragile and susceptible electronics with their hands with no precautions

Proper handing involves anti-static bags, anti-static straps, and anti-static pads etc and can save lots of money.

mollwollfumble said:

I was reading a scifi where the good guys set off a high-altitude nuclear EMP weapon over Chicago.

It got me wondering. I know the advertising blurb – an EMP device fries unprotected electronic circuits even if they’re not connected to a power supply.

But what would an EMP device (nuclear or hand-held) really do? Would it electrocute dolphins? Would it set aluminium window frames on fire? Or crack mirrors? Or give everyone a grand mal seizure?

they exposed 100,000 soldiers in America to a nuclear bomb blast, the first bombs that went up don’t have anything recorded about seizures – Feynman writes about watching it go off with the naked eye through glass and doesn’t mention anything about seizures.

the idea about EMP is that it induces electrical flow in circuits where the electrical flow isn’t meant to go or be above certain voltages

CrazyNeutrino said:

wookiemeister said:

sibeen said:

No, no no. A nuke EMP is set off way high in the atmosphere. Semiconductor junctions are fragile little beasts, which is why people working on them take ESD precautions. A few thousand volts and poof, it’s rooted. The voltage levels set up across a Faraday cage may heat up the copper a degree or two, but that’s about it. Even though the energy spike is quite large the power is quite low as it appears for such a short duration.

I’ve only ever seen two places ever worry about ESD, TAFE and a calibration and testing lab – everyone else feels very happy to handle fragile and susceptible electronics with their hands with no precautions

Proper handing involves anti-static bags, anti-static straps, and anti-static pads etc and can save lots of money.

yes but no one knows or cares about it, then they wonder why the equipment is always failing, you can tell people about it but they look at you as if you are mad – I don’t mention it anymore if i’m in a work environment

an EMP from a nuclear device is a nice extra from the explosion but the overriding aim of a nuclear bomb is to kill as many people as possible , that’s why they’ll ring a city with a necklace of nuclear explosions and have one in the centre of the city just above it, its to give everyone a blast of radiation and also flatten buildings.

the only true purpose of a nuclear bomb is wholesale killing, the damage to infrastructure is something that happens along the way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_s8CrRN76M

THREADS Trailer

the lucky ones will die first

The Electromagnetic Bomb – a Weapon of Electrical Mass Destruction
Carlo Kopp
Defence Analyst
Melbourne, Australia
Carlo.Kopp@aus.net
http://www.cs.monash.edu.au/~carlo/

ABSTRACT

High Power Electromagnetic Pulse generation techniques and High Power Microwave technology have matured to the point where practical E-bombs (Electromagnetic bombs) are becoming technically feasible, with new applications in both Strategic and Tactical Information Warfare. The development of conventional E-bomb devices allows their use in non-nuclear confrontations. This paper discusses aspects of the technology base, weapon delivery techniques and proposes a doctrinal foundation for the use of such devices in warhead and bomb applications.

_________________________________________________

Everything you ever wanted to know about EMP weapons…and more!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/apjemp.htm

macx

macx said:

The Electromagnetic Bomb – a Weapon of Electrical Mass Destruction
Carlo Kopp
Defence Analyst
Melbourne, Australia
Carlo.Kopp@aus.net
http://www.cs.monash.edu.au/~carlo/

ABSTRACT

High Power Electromagnetic Pulse generation techniques and High Power Microwave technology have matured to the point where practical E-bombs (Electromagnetic bombs) are becoming technically feasible, with new applications in both Strategic and Tactical Information Warfare. The development of conventional E-bomb devices allows their use in non-nuclear confrontations. This paper discusses aspects of the technology base, weapon delivery techniques and proposes a doctrinal foundation for the use of such devices in warhead and bomb applications.

_________________________________________________

Everything you ever wanted to know about EMP weapons…and more!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/apjemp.htm

macx

Interesting, macx. I hadn’t realised there were non-nuclear options. Makes things even more convoluted.

if you were a mischievous sort it would be interesting to see what would happen if you connected a power source with a much higher voltage to the existing power network / or just induce it using a coil .

If you had a return path to earth via pipes say I suppose you blow the brains on anything connected to the power system on that circuit

you’d need to do this in the LV side of things and create the pulse in the active to drive current away from the device in transformers that takes care of lightning strikes

wookiemeister said:

if you were a mischievous sort it would be interesting to see what would happen if you connected a power source with a much higher voltage to the existing power network / or just induce it using a coil.

Coil-based handheld EMP devices appear regularly on TV programs such as CSI-Cyber, Scorpion, etc. and in some movies. I’d be interested in knowing whether they would cause people without tin helmets to immediately fall unconscious.

There was an example of the Hollywood version of a nuclear EMP device on James Bond “Goldeneye” last night. The spacecraft “Goldeneye” was an EMP device. I don’t think the visual effects shown were very realistic, particularly the St Elmo’s fire and delayed building collapse.

mollwollfumble said:

There was an example of the Hollywood version of a nuclear EMP device on James Bond “Goldeneye” last night. The spacecraft “Goldeneye” was an EMP device. I don’t think the visual effects shown were very realistic, particularly the St Elmo’s fire and delayed building collapse.

The sex wasn’t too bad though.