Date: 28/09/2015 12:53:49
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781168
Subject: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Am reading a SciFi book. The book begins with a physics lecturer being taunted and killed in the Chinese Cultural Revolution for teaching the subjects of relativity and the Copenhagen interpretation, which the Revolution claimed were lies. (Reading this made me so angry that I had to stop reading many times).

Fast forward to the future. What if the revolutionaries were correct, and fundamental physics is wrong? The scientific method is based on the sequence – make an observation – derive a hypothesis to explain the observation – independent confirmation – continuing confirmation to progressively better accuracy. Now consider two scenarios out of the realm of metaphysics:
1) The Shooter. A shooter decides one day to shoot holes in a piece of metal 2 cm apart. Later, 2-D scientists living on that metal by use of the scientific method conclude that the presence of holes 2 cm apart is a fundamental physical law.
2) The farmer. Scientists among the turkeys by use of the scientific method conclude that food arrives at 11 am each day. Which it does, until Thanksgiving.
In each scenario a scientific theory, supported by full use of the scientific method, is wrong.

Now back to the present. Are there any indications yet that fundamental physics may be falling apart? That made me think of the following.

1) Godel went mad in his later years, shuffling around campus talking to himself. It was rumoured that not only had he proved that all mathematics was either incomplete or self-contradictory (as we all know) but had followed that up by proving that all physics is self-contradictory.

2) When asked (in the early 1980s) what he thought the next great breakthrough would be in physics, Feynman replied that he thought it would be the introduction of more uncertainty.

3) There is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that bypasses the problems that led to the Copenhagen interpretation, by means of the introduction of non-repeatability. We don’t have to worry about the collapse of the wave function, it says, because that is only needed if experiments are exactly repeatable – and no experiment can be repeated exactly.

4) There is a well known theory in fluid mechanics that turbulent fluid motion can never be exactly computed, because the number of unknowns always exceeds the number of equations. Introducing more equations just results in creating more unknowns.

5) Failure of all proposed explanations of “dark matter”. Failure to detect any properties of dark matter other than their gravitational influence.

Those are the main five that immediately sprung to mind. Other topics that may or may not be related are:

1) The perennial failure of all experiments into controlled nuclear fusion, since the late ’70s.
2) The continued failure of attempts to prove that the theory of quarks is mathematically self-consistent, failure of supersymmetry, failure of string theory (which relies on supersymmetry), continued failure of “theories of everything”. In short, theoretical physics died somewhere in the late ’70s.
3) Still no firm “yes or no” for either the strong anthropocentric principle or weak anthropocentric principle.
4) Lack of detection of gravity waves.
5) Physical theories that I call “see-saw theories” because every decade opinion swings in the opposite direction. These include “is travel backwards in time possible?”, “are wormholes possible?”, “could the Big Bang have been preceded by a Big Crunch?”, “do pentaquarks exist?”
6) Many examples where later experiments have failed to confirm earlier ones. One example I can think of right now is that an advanced experiment based on the style of Millikan Oil Drop experiment found free quarks, ie. quarks not bound inside subatomic particles. That was not confirmed by at least one later experiment.

What do you think? Could fundamental physics be wrong?

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Date: 28/09/2015 13:22:32
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 781183
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Notmollwollfumble said:

What do you think? Could fundamental physics be wrong?

No. Not in and of itself. Math defines our sense of certainty. Physics exists and complies with uncertainty until the observer applies his/her math to that observed. The more certain the observation the greater the uncertainty supporting it. Short answer in lieu of answering the scenarios provided.

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Date: 28/09/2015 14:07:31
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 781198
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Would this be a fair summary?

Mathematics measures certainty. Physics defines principles that can be limited to a certainty in a universe where uncertainty available is always exponentially greater than any certifiable observation.

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Date: 28/09/2015 14:08:57
From: Bubblecar
ID: 781200
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

>3) Still no firm “yes or no” for either the strong anthropocentric principle or weak anthropocentric principle.

I think you mean “anthropic principle”. The weak anthropic principle basically just states the obvious.

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Date: 28/09/2015 15:03:09
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 781216
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Bubblecar said:


>3) Still no firm “yes or no” for either the strong anthropocentric principle or weak anthropocentric principle.

I think you mean “anthropic principle”. The weak anthropic principle basically just states the obvious.

That humans are weak?

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Date: 28/09/2015 15:15:34
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 781217
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

How does that fit in with everything that’s been discovered?

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Date: 28/09/2015 15:31:49
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 781221
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

CrazyNeutrino said:


How does that fit in with everything that’s been discovered?

The observable exists within the EH of determinable certainties, the measurement of which requires careful consideration of uncertainty? Work for you at all? :P

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Date: 28/09/2015 15:50:24
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 781228
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

I’d like to see physics re-written from scratch using Planck units.
I suspect more interesting things might be revealed to us by doing so.

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Date: 28/09/2015 16:32:42
From: Bubblecar
ID: 781253
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Postpocelipse said:


Bubblecar said:

>3) Still no firm “yes or no” for either the strong anthropocentric principle or weak anthropocentric principle.

I think you mean “anthropic principle”. The weak anthropic principle basically just states the obvious.

That humans are weak?

That living beings should expect to find that the conditions of the universe they inhabit are compatible with their existence.

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Date: 28/09/2015 16:39:43
From: Bubblecar
ID: 781256
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Here’s Victor Stenger looking at the anthropic principle in detail:

http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/ant_encyc.pdf

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Date: 28/09/2015 16:48:30
From: dv
ID: 781258
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

I used to have a misanthropic principal.

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Date: 28/09/2015 16:59:20
From: Bubblecar
ID: 781261
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

The Final Anthropic Principle (FAP) seems to have an appropriate acronym:

“Intelligent information processing must come into evidence in the Universe, and,
once it comes into existence, it will never die out.”

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Date: 28/09/2015 17:25:55
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781263
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

> Math defines our sense of certainty.

You can say that knowing that Godel proved that all mathematics is either incomplete or self-contradictory?

Bubblecar said:


>3) Still no firm “yes or no” for either the strong anthropocentric principle or weak anthropocentric principle.

I think you mean “anthropic principle”. The weak anthropic principle basically just states the obvious.

Oops, you’re right “anthropic principle”. I disagree that the weak anthropic principle states the obvious. Instead, it’s more like a hand-waving bug fix invoked to explain why the universe is such an incredibly peculiar place. If the weak anthropic principle is discarded, then it still should be possible to derive the properties of the universe from first principles (such as Noether’s theorem, and slow-roll inflation). One article from not too long ago claimed that the weak anthropic principle was insufficient as a bug fix, that humans could exist under a much wider range of physical constants than previously thought, provided all constants were varied together (rather than one at a time).

> 6) Many examples where later experiments have failed to confirm earlier ones.

Brought to mind Galileo’s discovery of Neptune. He included it on a star chart and then rubbed it out, presumably because it had moved. It wasn’t rediscovered for about another 230 years. A variation on the theme is the Maunder minimum.

I’ve been thinking still more. I’m personally prepared to cling tenaciously to the godlike nature of physics until it’s conclusively proved that general relativity is not only wrong, but wrong in such a way that it can’t be fixed by either new mathematics or quantum mechanics. One such way to rip general relativity apart would be to prove the non-existence of gravitational waves. Looking it up now, the non-existence of gravitational waves would also destroy special relativity because, to a first approximation, the gravitational wave solutions from GR match those from SR. So when gravitational waves are first observed I will breathe a huge sigh of relief.

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Date: 28/09/2015 17:40:33
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781264
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

mollwollfumble said:


> 6) Many examples where later experiments have failed to confirm earlier ones.

I’ve been thinking still more. I’m personally prepared to cling tenaciously to the godlike nature of physics until it’s conclusively proved that general relativity is not only wrong, but wrong in such a way that it can’t be fixed by either new mathematics or quantum mechanics. One such way to rip general relativity apart would be to prove the non-existence of gravitational waves. Looking it up now, the non-existence of gravitational waves would also destroy special relativity because, to a first approximation, the gravitational wave solutions from GR match those from SR. So when gravitational waves are first observed I will breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Oops again. I’m not sure that gravitational waves exist in special relativity.

The discovery of gravitational waves by Joe Weber in 1969 was one of those examples where later experiments failed to confirm earlier ones.

The energy loss by the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar has been often cited as evidence that gravitational waves exist, but the evidence is indirect at best. None of the current best gravitational wave detectors have found a thing.

Posted by “lbenes 18 hours ago”, “I’ve always felt that theoretical physicists should give more thought to the implication that gravitational waves don’t exist.”

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Date: 28/09/2015 17:51:37
From: Postpocelipse
ID: 781267
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve been thinking still more. I’m personally prepared to cling tenaciously to the godlike nature of physics until it’s conclusively proved that general relativity is not only wrong, but wrong in such a way that it can’t be fixed by either new mathematics or quantum mechanics. One such way to rip general relativity apart would be to prove the non-existence of gravitational waves. Looking it up now, the non-existence of gravitational waves would also destroy special relativity because, to a first approximation, the gravitational wave solutions from GR match those from SR. So when gravitational waves are first observed I will breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Could gravitational waves represent the EH of observable as mediated between GR & SR uncertainty?

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Date: 28/09/2015 18:49:57
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 781307
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Gravity tends to pull things in rather than the opposite

How can these gravity waves, exceed the pull of gravity itself, the source whatever it the source maybe, large star, black hole?

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Date: 28/09/2015 19:28:17
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781331
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

CrazyNeutrino said:


Gravity tends to pull things in rather than the opposite

How can these gravity waves, exceed the pull of gravity itself, the source whatever it the source maybe, large star, black hole?

They don’t exceed the pull of gravity, they modulate it. They make gravity slightly stronger and weaker in a sinusoidal fashion over time. It can be a bit more subtle than that because they can be polarised.

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Date: 28/09/2015 19:30:55
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781332
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Postpocelipse said:


Could gravitational waves represent the EH of observable as mediated between GR & SR uncertainty?

Please explain. I don’t understand the question.

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Date: 28/09/2015 21:02:10
From: transition
ID: 781369
Subject: re: metaphysics, shooter and farmer.

Wont pretend to understand half of the OP, but doesn’t it seem like there’s something like a possibility space, as if of all the things that could (have) happen/ed (most of which didn’t/don’t happen) determine what does happen.

It’s like the unhappened are essential to that what does happen, and even of the past it seems to me that if possibility space didn’t have some peculiar continuity, all that is apparently certain would disappear, vanish, to never have been.

There’s a hint of this, maybe, in human memory, having a concept and knowledge of past, employing that in the now (to the extent it exists), and projecting into or of the future.

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