Date: 29/09/2015 16:25:41
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781683
Subject: Sugar an analgesic?

Totally anecdotal. I don’t take analgesics often. But:

After 2 hrs driving I had a seriously sore shoulder and leg. Took 2 ibuprofen and a diclofenac. Result, didn’t touch the pain at all. No change in pain level for next two hours.

Two days later.

After 2 hrs driving I had a seriously sore shoulder and leg. Took 1 jelly bean (I was hungry). Pains vanished almost instantly and stayed away for about an hour, after which they returned as bad as before, if not worse.

I know that “sugar pills” are sometimes used as placebos, but I was not expecting the jelly bean to have any effect on my pain so it came as a complete surprise, this seems to have a real physiological effect, on me at least. Has anyone done a scientific study on the pain-relieving effects of sugar? If so, where does stop the pain pathway? What about other sugars? Sweeteners? Is there a variant of sugar that lasts longer? Other mood-lifting things?

I note that Wikipedia has SFA about “sugar rush”.

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Date: 29/09/2015 16:32:11
From: poikilotherm
ID: 781689
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

Placebo, unless you’re an infant.

In younguns they reckon something really sweet in the mouth causes endogenous opioid activation (in this case they use sucrose).

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:00:25
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781713
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

poikilotherm said:


Placebo, unless you’re an infant.

In younguns they reckon something really sweet in the mouth causes endogenous opioid activation (in this case they use sucrose).

Had a look through Google scholar. The only study I found that tested if a temporary increase in blood glucose affected serotonin levels was in rainbow trout. And in that study they said specifically that they knew of no other experiment that looked for that. (There have been umpteen studies of the reverse, how neurotransmitter levels affect glucose metabolism). So perhaps it’s not blood glucose.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:10:48
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781716
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

poikilotherm said:


Placebo, unless you’re an infant.

In younguns they reckon something really sweet in the mouth causes endogenous opioid activation (in this case they use sucrose).

This may be related. Anyone here with access to Pub Med?

“Who responds to sugar pills?”
Moertel CG, Taylor WF, Roth A, Tyce FA, Mayo Clinic Proceedings
“Among 288 cancer patients undergoing controlled trials of oral analgesics there were 112 who received 50% or greater pain relief from placebo formulations. Patients who responded to placebo had a greater response rate to active drugs. Patient groups showing as increased placebo response included those with a high level of education, farmers, those with a professional occupation, women working outside the home, and patients who were widowed, separated, or divorced.”

Could it simply be that patients who responded best to sugar pills were those with less sugar in their normal diet? That could be consistent with the findings, and consistent with the idea that the sugar has a direct physiological effect.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:16:35
From: poikilotherm
ID: 781720
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


poikilotherm said:

Placebo, unless you’re an infant.

In younguns they reckon something really sweet in the mouth causes endogenous opioid activation (in this case they use sucrose).

This may be related. Anyone here with access to Pub Med?

“Who responds to sugar pills?”
Moertel CG, Taylor WF, Roth A, Tyce FA, Mayo Clinic Proceedings
“Among 288 cancer patients undergoing controlled trials of oral analgesics there were 112 who received 50% or greater pain relief from placebo formulations. Patients who responded to placebo had a greater response rate to active drugs. Patient groups showing as increased placebo response included those with a high level of education, farmers, those with a professional occupation, women working outside the home, and patients who were widowed, separated, or divorced.”

Could it simply be that patients who responded best to sugar pills were those with less sugar in their normal diet? That could be consistent with the findings, and consistent with the idea that the sugar has a direct physiological effect.

That’s from 1976…good luck.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:23:17
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781721
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

poikilotherm said:


mollwollfumble said:

poikilotherm said:

Placebo, unless you’re an infant.

In younguns they reckon something really sweet in the mouth causes endogenous opioid activation (in this case they use sucrose).

This may be related. Anyone here with access to Pub Med?

“Who responds to sugar pills?”
Moertel CG, Taylor WF, Roth A, Tyce FA, Mayo Clinic Proceedings 1976, 51(2):96-100

That’s from 1976…good luck.

Yes, from 1976, I temporarily forgot that the holiday forum doesn’t like square brackets. Pub Med anyone?

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:30:13
From: poikilotherm
ID: 781722
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


poikilotherm said:

mollwollfumble said:

This may be related. Anyone here with access to Pub Med?

“Who responds to sugar pills?”
Moertel CG, Taylor WF, Roth A, Tyce FA, Mayo Clinic Proceedings 1976, 51(2):96-100

That’s from 1976…good luck.

Yes, from 1976, I temporarily forgot that the holiday forum doesn’t like square brackets. Pub Med anyone?

Yes. It’s not there. Only goes back to 1980.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:37:41
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781726
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

poikilotherm said:


That’s from 1976…good luck.

Going back beyond 1976, to 1955.

Beecher HK (1955) The powerful placebo. JAMA 159: 1602–6.
Beecher “suggested that about 35% of patients with a variety of conditions could be improved or cured by placebos”

Without reading the article, though, I can’t know which substances were used in the placebos.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:46:13
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781732
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

This one’s a LOL. Again, unfortunately, the abstract doesn’t say which chemicals in the placebo. Do you see the LOL? Patients given placebo reported a significantly better level of pain reduction than those given the painkiller!

“Lancet. 1978 Sep 23;2(8091):654-7.
The mechanism of placebo analgesia.
Levine JD, Gordon NC, Fields HL.
Abstract
The effect of naloxone on dental postoperative pain was studied to examine the hypothesis that endorphins mediate placebo analgesia. All patients had extraction of impacted mandibular third molars with diazepam, N2O, and local block with mepivacaine. 3 h and 4 h after surgery naloxone or a placebo was given under randomised, double-blind conditions. Pain was evaluated on a visual analogue scale. Patients given naloxone reported significantly greater pain than those given placebo.”

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:52:05
From: transition
ID: 781736
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

i’d expect the work of satisfying desires (of hunger for example, even if not hungry at the time) releases feel-good-chemicals (natural opiates, or influences receptor sensitivity),

also higher blood sugar levels may stimulate certain things that usually’d be associated with physical activity (feel good things).

sitting in a vehicle for any period results in a type of sensory deprivation, which may make some discomforts seem worse, because you’re not exercising etc pumping the natural opiates, which is sort of tied in with mental states and distraction or ignoring mechanisms.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:53:17
From: poikilotherm
ID: 781737
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


This one’s a LOL. Again, unfortunately, the abstract doesn’t say which chemicals in the placebo. Do you see the LOL? Patients given placebo reported a significantly better level of pain reduction than those given the painkiller!

“Lancet. 1978 Sep 23;2(8091):654-7.
The mechanism of placebo analgesia.
Levine JD, Gordon NC, Fields HL.
Abstract
The effect of naloxone on dental postoperative pain was studied to examine the hypothesis that endorphins mediate placebo analgesia. All patients had extraction of impacted mandibular third molars with diazepam, N2O, and local block with mepivacaine. 3 h and 4 h after surgery naloxone or a placebo was given under randomised, double-blind conditions. Pain was evaluated on a visual analogue scale. Patients given naloxone reported significantly greater pain than those given placebo.”

Naloxone is not a pain killer.

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Date: 29/09/2015 17:55:55
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781738
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


“Lancet. 1978 Sep 23;2(8091):654-7.
The mechanism of placebo analgesia.
Levine JD, Gordon NC, Fields HL.
Abstract
The effect of naloxone on dental postoperative pain was studied to examine the hypothesis that endorphins mediate placebo analgesia. All patients had extraction of impacted mandibular third molars with diazepam, N2O, and local block with mepivacaine. 3 h and 4 h after surgery naloxone or a placebo was given under randomised, double-blind conditions. Pain was evaluated on a visual analogue scale. Patients given naloxone reported significantly greater pain than those given placebo.”

Oops. Naloxone is not an analgesic. Doesn’t say which placebo. Let me read it again. The important sentence is this one “Endorphin release mediates placebo analgesia for dental postoperative pain.” So, perhaps sugar pills cause a “sugar rush” that is the same as a “endorphin rush” similar to the euphoric effects of sex, exercise, whatever. I can’t prove that without knowing which chemicals were in their placebos.

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Date: 29/09/2015 18:13:18
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781760
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

From before starting this topic, I’ve reasoned that the best way to test analgesia with sugar (and related substances) is with rats. Rats wouldn’t be so influenced by purely psychological factors. I’d test pain by looking for “glottal stops” in the breathing pattern, using a belt around the chest, a non-invasive technique. The more stress a rat is under, the more irregular its breathing would be.

No time to read it yet, doesn’t mention sugar. About the relative strength of different types of placebos. Full article publically available.
http://media.virbcdn.com/files/7c/FileItem-112506-KaptchukJCEdevises2000.pdf

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Date: 29/09/2015 18:43:00
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781782
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


From before starting this topic, I’ve reasoned that the best way to test analgesia with sugar (and related substances) is with rats. Rats wouldn’t be so influenced by purely psychological factors. I’d test pain by looking for “glottal stops” in the breathing pattern, using a belt around the chest, a non-invasive technique. The more stress a rat is under, the more irregular its breathing would be.

Looks like using placebos on rats is a hot topic in science right now. This paper looks good. They used temperature to induce mild pain and then slipped a placebo in in place of morphine, and got an excellent placebo response. Again, I don’t know WHICH placebo.
“Placebo‐induced analgesia in an operant pain model in rats. Nolan, Todd A.; Price, Donald D.; Caudle, Robert M.; et al, Pain. 153(10):2009-2016, October 2012.”

I wouldn’t like to cross the author of the next paper though, they induced pain by slicing through the rat’s spinal cord – shudder. Then concluded that placebos were only mildly effective in stopping pain. Not surprised, given the horrendous nature of the pain.
“The elusive rat model of conditioned placebo analgesia. McNabb, Christopher T.; White, Michelle M.; Harris, Amber L.; et al, Pain. 155(10):2022-2032, October 2014.”

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Date: 29/09/2015 21:21:41
From: transition
ID: 781848
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

>and got an excellent placebo response.

I think the term placebo is a bit overused, perhaps misused.

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Date: 29/09/2015 23:29:45
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781912
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

transition said:


>and got an excellent placebo response.

I think the term placebo is a bit overused, perhaps misused.

Actually, the first definitive paper on the medical uses of placebos, Beecher 1955, says exactly that. To quote from the abstract:

“Such tablets are sometimes called placebos, but it is better to call them dummies. According to the Shorter Oxford Dictionary the word placebo has been used since 1811 to mean a medicine given more to please than to benefit the patient. Dummy tablets are not particularly noted for the pleasure which they give to their recipients.”

—-

Placebo-induced analgesia in an operant pain model in rats. Nolan TA1, Price DD, Caudle RM, Murphy NP, Neubert JK. Pain. 2012 Oct;153(10):2009-16.

Got a friend to log me on to PubMed so I could read this. Pain was assessed using “lick response”. “Rodents express their willingness to withstand thermal pain to obtain sweet reward”. This “tests mild non-injurious pain and utilizes operant responses”. “A standard rodent water bottle containing diluted (1:2 with water) sweetened condensed milk solution at room temperature (Carnation, Nestlé USA, Glendale, CA) was mounted outside the cage as a palatable reward to incentivize rats to expose their faces to the heat from an aluminium tubing heated to 48°C behind a slit. Injected Naloxone was used to suppress the placebo effect in some cases.

I think that what they call a placebo is “phosphate buffered saline (PBS), pH 7.4 injected subcutaneously”. Hmm, not what I’d call a sugar pill. Interesting that the rats were tested in a pain avoidance mode, ie. they were given the placebo or morphine or naloxone before deciding whether to subject themselves to the painful stimulus. I’d call that ethical experimentation.

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Date: 30/09/2015 08:57:00
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 781956
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


From before starting this topic, I’ve reasoned that the best way to test analgesia with sugar (and related substances) is with rats. Rats wouldn’t be so influenced by purely psychological factors. I’d test pain by looking for “glottal stops” in the breathing pattern, using a belt around the chest, a non-invasive technique. The more stress a rat is under, the more irregular its breathing would be.

No time to read it yet, doesn’t mention sugar. About the relative strength of different types of placebos. Full article publically available.
http://media.virbcdn.com/files/7c/FileItem-112506-KaptchukJCEdevises2000.pdf

On the linked article. In one study, oral placebo failed to lower blood pressure whereas injected placebo did. The oral drug also failed to reduce blood pressure. In another study: “88 highly refractory patients
with rheumatoid arthritis had previously “been exposed to an almost unbelievable number of nostrums, cultists, chemicals and physical agents, all of which had failed. When these patients received placebo pills for up to 4 weeks, 50% of them improved. If patients did not respond to the oral placebo, or had only a transient response, their treatment was changed by the investigators to injections of normal saline. Sixty-four percent of those resistant to placebo tablets responded to injections. 82% of all placebo-treated patients had some benefit, which lasted for 2 to 20 months.” (which placebo pills? I ask myself).

Also from linked article, sham acupuncture was compared to placebo pills. “a vexing problem in the study of
acupuncture, and other devices, is to select a placebo that mimics the verum and yet is a bona fide placebo!”. I would argue that the same problem exists with placebo pills. “In a study of 51 dental operative patients who received either real or sham acupuncture, blinding of patients was accomplished by hiding both the real and sham needles in a tube. The sham needle, however, never touched the skin because it became embedded in plastic on the undersurface of the holder. The result was that both real and sham acupuncture produced “100% success and high levels of patient acceptance”.

Other placebos compared included transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS), sham surgery for
such diverse conditions as angina pectoris, asthma, osteoarthritis of the knee, and Parkinson’s disease.

A Google scholar search for the main author, Kaptchuk, also produces a wide range of papers about other placebos, including acupuncture, homeopathy, medical devices, complementary and alternative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, “healing ritual”, nocebos, bias present even within double-blind randomised control trials, chiropractors, massage therapists, naturopathic physicians, effect of spoken words, interpersonal healing, ginseng, Navajo, biomedicine, ethics of using placebos in medical trials, the effect of informing patient up front that they are going to receive a placebo, supportive patient-physician relationship, yin-yang, “I made up the whole thing” patient response, “a taxonomy of unconventional healing practices”, holistic thinking, qigong, Gua Sha treatment.

Good stuff, I had no idea that there were so many different types of placebo.

One problem with the belt around the chest. Rats have hair. Hair flexes and has hysteresis. The more hair an animal has, the less accurate a belt around the chest (fitted with a strain gauge) would be at measuring breathing irregularities. Perhaps it should be nude mice.

So I’ve now narrowed the original question down. Given that a placebo effect is caused by a rise in endogenous endorphins, can this rise be triggered by sugar and similar chemicals purely by chemical means independent of psychological expectations, and if so is it triggered by taste or by ingestion?

Reply Quote

Date: 30/09/2015 09:09:57
From: poikilotherm
ID: 781960
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

mollwollfumble said:


mollwollfumble said:

From before starting this topic, I’ve reasoned that the best way to test analgesia with sugar (and related substances) is with rats. Rats wouldn’t be so influenced by purely psychological factors. I’d test pain by looking for “glottal stops” in the breathing pattern, using a belt around the chest, a non-invasive technique. The more stress a rat is under, the more irregular its breathing would be.

No time to read it yet, doesn’t mention sugar. About the relative strength of different types of placebos. Full article publically available.
http://media.virbcdn.com/files/7c/FileItem-112506-KaptchukJCEdevises2000.pdf

So I’ve now narrowed the original question down. Given that a placebo effect is caused by a rise in endogenous endorphins, can this rise be triggered by sugar and similar chemicals purely by chemical means independent of psychological expectations, and if so is it triggered by taste or by ingestion?

taste or taken orally, doesn’t work when similar things are injected or put directly into the gut.

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Date: 30/09/2015 10:04:27
From: transition
ID: 781992
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

my mind is a placebo

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:04:16
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 782788
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

poikilotherm said:


mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

From before starting this topic, I’ve reasoned that the best way to test analgesia with sugar (and related substances) is with rats. Rats wouldn’t be so influenced by purely psychological factors. I’d test pain by looking for “glottal stops” in the breathing pattern, using a belt around the chest, a non-invasive technique. The more stress a rat is under, the more irregular its breathing would be.

No time to read it yet, doesn’t mention sugar. About the relative strength of different types of placebos. Full article publically available.
http://media.virbcdn.com/files/7c/FileItem-112506-KaptchukJCEdevises2000.pdf

So I’ve now narrowed the original question down. Given that a placebo effect is caused by a rise in endogenous endorphins, can this rise be triggered by sugar and similar chemicals purely by chemical means independent of psychological expectations, and if so is it triggered by taste or by ingestion?

taste or taken orally, doesn’t work when similar things are injected or put directly into the gut.

Exactly. Even though the brain chemistry may be similar for both (there’s no guarantee that the same endogenous chemicals are involved) there could easily be a significant distinction between a psychological aspect (similar to hypnosis) and a physio-chemical aspect (such as taste reflex).

Reply Quote

Date: 2/10/2015 09:10:05
From: Divine Angel
ID: 782792
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

All medications should be dispensed with a block of chocolate.

poik, what are your thoughts on having prescriptions for OTC meds containing codeine?

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:11:24
From: stumpy_seahorse
ID: 782793
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

Divine Angel said:


All medications should be dispensed with a block of chocolate.

including diabetes medications?…

:P

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:13:07
From: Divine Angel
ID: 782794
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

stumpy_seahorse said:


Divine Angel said:

All medications should be dispensed with a block of chocolate.

including diabetes medications?…

:P

Pharmacies often sell sugar free chocolate. Oh wait, that defeats the purpose of sugar as an analgesic. Never mind.

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:15:28
From: stumpy_seahorse
ID: 782796
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

Divine Angel said:


stumpy_seahorse said:

Divine Angel said:

All medications should be dispensed with a block of chocolate.

including diabetes medications?…

:P

Pharmacies often sell sugar free chocolate. Oh wait, that defeats the purpose of sugar as an analgesic. Never mind.

have you ever tasted said chocolate?…

there is no way on earth you can classify that crap as ‘chocolate’…

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:17:50
From: Divine Angel
ID: 782797
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

I don’t think I have. I have tasted soy chocolate though. WTF is up with that?!?

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:20:49
From: stumpy_seahorse
ID: 782799
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

Divine Angel said:


I don’t think I have. I have tasted soy chocolate though. WTF is up with that?!?

soy… blech
carob… blech..

there was a good cadburys one a few years back, but half a dozen squares of that and you’d be riding the porcelain bus forthe next 24 hours…

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:23:19
From: Arts
ID: 782801
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

the Aztecs used Cacao as a celebratory drink…. what happened to them? see, that’s what you get for not having real sugar in your chocolate

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:29:22
From: poikilotherm
ID: 782804
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

Divine Angel said:


All medications should be dispensed with a block of chocolate.

poik, what are your thoughts on having prescriptions for OTC meds containing codeine?

A bit nanny state esque, while it is a problem in some people, they’ll abuse it when on script as well…like oxycontin et al.

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:32:23
From: transition
ID: 782806
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

….. a reminder there is food around is reassuring, and generally (historically – probably going back millions of years) sugar’s like there’s fruit around, and if there’s fruit around things are good.

historically sugar = fruit = vitamin C = food plentiful

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:34:46
From: poikilotherm
ID: 782808
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

Divine Angel said:


stumpy_seahorse said:

Divine Angel said:

All medications should be dispensed with a block of chocolate.

including diabetes medications?…

:P

Pharmacies often sell sugar free chocolate. Oh wait, that defeats the purpose of sugar as an analgesic. Never mind.

‘tis quite high in fat when looking at the nutrition info.

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Date: 2/10/2015 09:35:09
From: transition
ID: 782809
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

it’s only recently sugar stopped being associated with Vitamin C (and broader food supply being adequate), one of those things the modern world dumbs people down regards.

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Date: 2/10/2015 11:24:34
From: transition
ID: 782873
Subject: re: Sugar an analgesic?

I can’t any gain in portraying reassurances and inducements related to basic desires and desire satisfaction (even hoped for as placebo effect.

I’d add too that medicine (in the modern context of medicalization) has a lot of power in our culture, not entirely unlike the medicine man and witchdoctor of past.

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