If you take the essence of the idea of theft, what would be the most common forms of totally legal theft, in the human world. I’m thinking of the social field.
Identity theft.
>Identity theft.
that’d be (for the purposes of) to pose or impersonate..to deceive…….to put someone at risk……and extract or put to use private or confidential information that is not for whoever for some purpose it’s not meant.
of sorry you mean legal theft
government selling Australian owned departments, which become privatized
no mining tax so mining companies can operate tax free where if there was mining tax billions of dollars could be collected
unused gigabyte allowances that just disappear which have been paid for
CrazyNeutrino said:
of sorry you mean legal theftgovernment selling Australian owned departments, which become privatized
no mining tax so mining companies can operate tax free where if there was mining tax billions of dollars could be collected
unused gigabyte allowances that just disappear which have been paid for
with every other company and individuals paying tax why not mining?
>with every other company and individuals paying tax why not mining?
gather mining employees and shareholders do, and there’s GST…
anyway, was sort of in the territory of the more mundane non-political
that every-day-social
you take power of attorney over your mum/ dad and then take their belongings
the government declares an elderly person not fit to administer their estate and legally take control of it then run it into the ground with various bills/ fees the government imposes on the person
you get into cahoots with a solicitor and sell your parents house whilst you’ve taken POA, the solicitor removes the need for any other siblings to sign their right of ownership away and you just take the house legally
in this country solicitors have taken peoples houses legally !!!
as all laws are backed up with a man with a gun , you take over legally and then the men with guns are yours
taxes are a form of legal theft – you have no say in how much the government takes from you
if you don’t like it they kill you or imprison you and take any property you have
all legal theft is backed up with force from a man with a gun (or woman)
if you are an unborn child you have least rights until you hit a magical age
before that age you can be killed and experimented upon – legally
Ludicrous fees/charges on bank accounts, airline tickets and other “processing” fees.
Justify that fee part 1 (1.30 video)
Justify that fee part 2 (1.40 video)
a lot of speeding fines appears to be just revenue collecting
vs actual speeding where dangerous
CrazyNeutrino said:
a lot of speeding fines appears to be just revenue collectingvs actual speeding where dangerous
was thinking some theft is probably necessary to social life, part of the give and take, keeps the wheels greased.
Palestine is a country acquired legally by stealing it from the Palestinians
Australia likewise – we declared it terra nullis
wookiemeister said:
Palestine is a country acquired legally by stealing it from the PalestiniansAustralia likewise – we declared it terra nullis
like America with the native Indians
and lots of other examples
CrazyNeutrino said:
wookiemeister said:
Palestine is a country acquired legally by stealing it from the PalestiniansAustralia likewise – we declared it terra nullis
like America with the native Indians
and lots of other examples
if theft is legal then all disputes should be settled with force
those uninterested in war and defending themselves are consigned to history
if theft is legal then and if you use force and violence to get what you want then its still legal anyway
violence is legal
Low-range speeding tickets. Up to about 5km/h or so over the posted limit.
It’s just thievery.
CrazyNeutrino said:
a lot of speeding fines appears to be just revenue collectingvs actual speeding where dangerous
Nah crap. It’s all about road safety. I heard a politician say more than once.
Ideally, all government revenue would come from speeding and other traffic fines, so that good folks would live tax free and low level sociopaths would foot the bill.
Re the OP:
Property is a social convention only defined by law: it has no absolute or external meaning outside that framework, so it means nothing to discuss legal theft.
dv said:
Re the OP:Property is a social convention only defined by law: it has no absolute or external meaning outside that framework, so it means nothing to discuss legal theft.
Whilst that may be true taking the words with a very restricted meaning, the fact is that words do not have very restricted meanings, so the discussion is not meaningless.
I take the question to mean: what are the most common ways in which legal activities result in some people receiving income without providing any useful goods or services in return, or receiving grossly disproportionate income for the goods and services provided?
On that basis I would say those who provide financial services, and those who speculate on stock markets, and other similar markets were the most common people involved in legal theft.
transition said:
If you take the essence of the idea of theft, what would be the most common forms of totally legal theft, in the human world. I’m thinking of the social field.
Most common, probably negligence, being paid for something that you don’t do properly. Others would include:
Overcharging, profiteering.
Holding in trust. (Remember that having something in hand is nine-tenths of the law).
Hustling, particularly in the USA.
Legal services. eg., a Lawyer charging $2,000 for writing two letters.
Ingratiation.
Blackmail – usually totally legal, especially when used in political circles.
Kickback.
Pedaling influence.
A cut-out man.
Finder’s fee for recovering “lost” property.
Cheap knock-off copies.
Making and selling “sports cars”.
Mark-up on resale as in, for example, “the ethics of a used car salesman”.
Hiding faults in, for example, a house by covering them or distracting attention away from them.
See definition of the word “trick”.
Lies in advertising.
Planned obsolescence.
Borrowing. (Remember advice from Polonius).
Loan sharking, eg. Diners Card, American Express, Credit Wash, Nimble, Wallet Wizard, Mafia.
“The sting”, “Not a penny more, not a penny less”.
Selling the same thing twice (eg. IP).
Finding a source of income that there’s no tax on.
The toll on the Sydney Harbour Bridge. (Don’t pretend that the Gov’t is still paying off its construction cost).
Declaring bankruptcy.
Receivership. (i.e. collect loans owed to someone else and pay the collected money to yourself).
One person I know makes a living out of ingratiating himself with old and sick people, in order to get left something in their will, and/or get a gift before that. He’s never worked a day in his life and pays no tax, but drives a Rolls Royce. Perfectly legal.
One example from “The Godfather” where the owner of a trucking company also owns a road-repair business. The trucks are overloaded which damage the roads insuring steady work for the road repair gang.
mollwollfumble said:
transition said:
If you take the essence of the idea of theft, what would be the most common forms of totally legal theft, in the human world. I’m thinking of the social field.
Most common, probably negligence, being paid for something that you don’t do properly. Others would include:
Overcharging, profiteering.
Holding in trust. (Remember that having something in hand is nine-tenths of the law).
Hustling, particularly in the USA.
Legal services. eg., a Lawyer charging $2,000 for writing two letters.
Ingratiation.
Blackmail – usually totally legal, especially when used in political circles.
Kickback.
Pedaling influence.
A cut-out man.
Finder’s fee for recovering “lost” property.
Cheap knock-off copies.
Making and selling “sports cars”.
Mark-up on resale as in, for example, “the ethics of a used car salesman”.
Hiding faults in, for example, a house by covering them or distracting attention away from them.
See definition of the word “trick”.
Lies in advertising.
Planned obsolescence.
Borrowing. (Remember advice from Polonius).
Loan sharking, eg. Diners Card, American Express, Credit Wash, Nimble, Wallet Wizard, Mafia.
“The sting”, “Not a penny more, not a penny less”.
Selling the same thing twice (eg. IP).
Finding a source of income that there’s no tax on.
The toll on the Sydney Harbour Bridge. (Don’t pretend that the Gov’t is still paying off its construction cost).
Declaring bankruptcy.
Receivership. (i.e. collect loans owed to someone else and pay the collected money to yourself).One person I know makes a living out of ingratiating himself with old and sick people, in order to get left something in their will, and/or get a gift before that. He’s never worked a day in his life and pays no tax, but drives a Rolls Royce. Perfectly legal.
One example from “The Godfather” where the owner of a trucking company also owns a road-repair business. The trucks are overloaded which damage the roads insuring steady work for the road repair gang.
Some of those I agree with, some could be considered theft but are in fact illegal (although perhaps difficult to police), and some are not theft at all, in any sense of the word.
For instance, in no sense is it theft to charge for the use of a facility that is providing a very useful service, even if that facility has been there a very long time and the income received has more than paid for the cost of construction. Indeed, if the facility is publicly owned, it could be considered theft not to charge for it.
mollwollfumble said:
Making and selling “sports cars”.
That doesn’t make a lot of sense sorry.
dv said:
Ideally, all government revenue would come from speeding and other traffic fines, so that good folks would live tax free and low level sociopaths would foot the bill.
That I agree with. Perhaps hoping for all revenue to come in this way is over-optimistic, but the more that can come from voluntary taxation the better.
The Rev Dodgson said:
dv said:
Ideally, all government revenue would come from speeding and other traffic fines, so that good folks would live tax free and low level sociopaths would foot the bill.
That I agree with. Perhaps hoping for all revenue to come in this way is over-optimistic, but the more that can come from voluntary taxation the better.
DV was joking.
Spiny Norman said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
dv said:
Ideally, all government revenue would come from speeding and other traffic fines, so that good folks would live tax free and low level sociopaths would foot the bill.
That I agree with. Perhaps hoping for all revenue to come in this way is over-optimistic, but the more that can come from voluntary taxation the better.
DV was joking.
He was only joking in the same sense that I was.
The Rev Dodgson said:
On that basis I would say those who provide financial services, and those who speculate on stock markets, and other similar markets were the most common people involved in legal theft.
But from whom are they stealing?
The Rev Dodgson said:
.I take the question to mean: what are the most common ways in which legal activities result in some people receiving income without providing any useful goods or services in return, or receiving grossly disproportionate income for the goods and services provided?
Then it would be more usefully be expressed that way.
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
On that basis I would say those who provide financial services, and those who speculate on stock markets, and other similar markets were the most common people involved in legal theft.
But from whom are they stealing?
All the people who pay fees far in excess of the value received.
dv said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
.I take the question to mean: what are the most common ways in which legal activities result in some people receiving income without providing any useful goods or services in return, or receiving grossly disproportionate income for the goods and services provided?
Then it would be more usefully be expressed that way.
Fees for my transition translation service are most reasonable.
The Rev Dodgson said:
dv said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
.I take the question to mean: what are the most common ways in which legal activities result in some people receiving income without providing any useful goods or services in return, or receiving grossly disproportionate income for the goods and services provided?
Then it would be more usefully be expressed that way.
Fees for my transition translation service are most reasonable.
And not theft
I would like to nominate ‘work creation’ as the most common form of all.
Spiny Norman said:
mollwollfumble said:
Making and selling “sports cars”.That doesn’t make a lot of sense sorry.
“Sports cars” are a way of legally parting the gullible from a very large amount of money. In what “sport” are “sports cars” supposed to participate? I haven’t seen any unmodified new street legal Maserati in any recent sporting events, for example.
I’m sure I could name another 20 or so examples of legal theft.
eg. “War” is a common and totally legal way of performing theft.
legal theft can only be carried out by a stronger party
mollwollfumble said:
Spiny Norman said:
mollwollfumble said:
Making and selling “sports cars”.That doesn’t make a lot of sense sorry.
“Sports cars” are a way of legally parting the gullible from a very large amount of money. In what “sport” are “sports cars” supposed to participate? I haven’t seen any unmodified new street legal Maserati in any recent sporting events, for example.
You need to look a bit more carefully then, there’s plenty involved.
An example here of a Lamborghini running the Targa Tassie event. There’s many very expensive cars that run in that race.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VL4p2N11vg
Also, by Sports Car, they don’t mean it’s purely built to run in motorsport, only that it’s sporty as such. You know, fun to drive because it has lots of power, handles nicely, makes a good noise, etc. Regular cars are generally frightfully dull in those aspects.
Spiny Norman said:
mollwollfumble said:
Spiny Norman said:That doesn’t make a lot of sense sorry.
“Sports cars” are a way of legally parting the gullible from a very large amount of money. In what “sport” are “sports cars” supposed to participate? I haven’t seen any unmodified new street legal Maserati in any recent sporting events, for example.
You need to look a bit more carefully then, there’s plenty involved.
An example here of a Lamborghini running the Targa Tassie event. There’s many very expensive cars that run in that race.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VL4p2N11vg
Also, by Sports Car, they don’t mean it’s purely built to run in motorsport, only that it’s sporty as such. You know, fun to drive because it has lots of power, handles nicely, makes a good noise, etc. Regular cars are generally frightfully dull in those aspects.
most common of totally legal theft
I would have thought that “religions” fills this better than anything else.
bit random, but how much of your normal did/do you pinch, or, what do you pinch from that abnormal to trend your normal in the desired direction.
bob(from black rock) said:
Spiny Norman said:
mollwollfumble said:“Sports cars” are a way of legally parting the gullible from a very large amount of money. In what “sport” are “sports cars” supposed to participate? I haven’t seen any unmodified new street legal Maserati in any recent sporting events, for example.
You need to look a bit more carefully then, there’s plenty involved.
An example here of a Lamborghini running the Targa Tassie event. There’s many very expensive cars that run in that race.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VL4p2N11vg
Also, by Sports Car, they don’t mean it’s purely built to run in motorsport, only that it’s sporty as such. You know, fun to drive because it has lots of power, handles nicely, makes a good noise, etc. Regular cars are generally frightfully dull in those aspects.
most common of totally legal theft
I would have thought that “religions” fills this better than anything else.
Speaking of which, what are/is the latest releases in the loony fringe?
bob(from black rock) said:
bob(from black rock) said:
Spiny Norman said:You need to look a bit more carefully then, there’s plenty involved.
An example here of a Lamborghini running the Targa Tassie event. There’s many very expensive cars that run in that race.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VL4p2N11vg
Also, by Sports Car, they don’t mean it’s purely built to run in motorsport, only that it’s sporty as such. You know, fun to drive because it has lots of power, handles nicely, makes a good noise, etc. Regular cars are generally frightfully dull in those aspects.
most common of totally legal theft
I would have thought that “religions” fills this better than anything else.
Speaking of which, what are/is the latest releases in the loony fringe?
wookiemeister said:
bob(from black rock) said:
bob(from black rock) said:most common of totally legal theft
I would have thought that “religions” fills this better than anything else.
Speaking of which, what are/is the latest releases in the loony fringe?
how looney are we talking bob?
Well any body that tells you are evil, and you will burn in “Hell” for every unless you believe their “Fairy story” believe their crap and send them money.
bob(from black rock) said:
wookiemeister said:
bob(from black rock) said:Speaking of which, what are/is the latest releases in the loony fringe?
how looney are we talking bob?Well any body that tells you are evil, and you will burn in “Hell” for every unless you believe their “Fairy story” believe their crap and send them money.
hell is a purely human construct
Scientology is legal theft
they offer false science to people with the promise of being cleared
they have these 8 levels where each cost thousands of dollars
Have a laugh at this rubbish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan
more about their rubbish
http://listverse.com/2007/07/28/top-8-levels-of-scientology/
they get people to read their rubbish and then charge money for it
Scientology is a pyramid money scam
vulnerable people at the bottom handing over their money which goes to rich people at the top
Scientology is legal theft, it breaks up a lot of families due to financial stress
Scientology should be banned
level 1 = $2,750
level 2 = $5,225
level 3 = $8,910
Costs can vary considerably depending upon the needs of the individual, but a rough estimate suggests you’ll be paying $128,000 to reach Clear, another $33,000 to reach OT III, and an additional $100,000 to $130,000 to reach OT VIII, which is the highest level currently available.
from
http://altreligion.about.com/od/controversymisconception/a/scientology_cos.htm
so when people pay for rubbish that costs $33,000 $128,000 etc
legal theft
get real scientists to debunk their rubbish
and show politicians that it is rubbish
then protect the public from this sort of rubbish
Much of it has been said and though holding in trust was mentioned. Most people seem surprised when I tell them that if they leave anything to be repaired at a shop, if they don’t pick it up within three months it becomes the property of the shop. This happened to me once with a camera. I’d left it there for him to fix and he hadn’t fixed it yet every time I checked. Then I gave him some tiime to fix it by not bothering him. Then saw a notice in the paper that he was selling out. A closing down sale, come and pick up your stuff. I went in and he said oh that had been here longer than three months and I’ve sold it.
roughbarked said:
Much of it has been said and though holding in trust was mentioned. Most people seem surprised when I tell them that if they leave anything to be repaired at a shop, if they don’t pick it up within three months it becomes the property of the shop. This happened to me once with a camera. I’d left it there for him to fix and he hadn’t fixed it yet every time I checked. Then I gave him some tiime to fix it by not bothering him. Then saw a notice in the paper that he was selling out. A closing down sale, come and pick up your stuff. I went in and he said oh that had been here longer than three months and I’ve sold it.
Did he show you the law that he claims allows this action?
The Rev Dodgson said:
roughbarked said:
Much of it has been said and though holding in trust was mentioned. Most people seem surprised when I tell them that if they leave anything to be repaired at a shop, if they don’t pick it up within three months it becomes the property of the shop. This happened to me once with a camera. I’d left it there for him to fix and he hadn’t fixed it yet every time I checked. Then I gave him some tiime to fix it by not bothering him. Then saw a notice in the paper that he was selling out. A closing down sale, come and pick up your stuff. I went in and he said oh that had been here longer than three months and I’ve sold it.
Did he show you the law that he claims allows this action?
it is legal to do this but they must have made reasonable steps to contact you first.
roughbarked said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
roughbarked said:
Much of it has been said and though holding in trust was mentioned. Most people seem surprised when I tell them that if they leave anything to be repaired at a shop, if they don’t pick it up within three months it becomes the property of the shop. This happened to me once with a camera. I’d left it there for him to fix and he hadn’t fixed it yet every time I checked. Then I gave him some tiime to fix it by not bothering him. Then saw a notice in the paper that he was selling out. A closing down sale, come and pick up your stuff. I went in and he said oh that had been here longer than three months and I’ve sold it.
Did he show you the law that he claims allows this action?
No.
So he was in fact breaking the law in two separate ways:
1. He sold something that he didn’t own, which is illegal.
2. He made a statement that was false and/or deceptive for the purposes of monetary gain, which is also illegal. (It’s not criminal, but it is forbidden by the trade practices act, so you can sue for damages).
Point 2 would also seem to make Scientology illegal.
On the other hand, it is likely that he was engaging in a form of legal theft, by the common practice of transferring business assets to a close family member, or otherwise getting them out of your name, but still having access to them, then declare the business bankrupt with huge debts.
Here’s how the selling after 3 months works in SA:
http://www.lsc.sa.gov.au/resources/Unclaimed_Goods_Feb2014.pdf
The main points being:
The holder of the goods has to contact the owner and set a date for collection. The 3 months runs from that date.
The money received for the goods belongs to the owner, after deduction of reasonable expenses.
I have just remembered a very common form of legal theft:
Gift vouchers with an expiry date.
The Rev Dodgson said:
I have just remembered a very common form of legal theft:Gift vouchers with an expiry date.
good point.
wookiemeister said:
if you are an unborn child you have least rights until you hit a magical agebefore that age you can be killed and experimented upon – legally
Yes, but if you are an unfertilised child it’s even worse, you just get flushed down the loo.
The Rev Dodgson said:
(It’s not criminal, but it is forbidden by the trade practices act, so you can sue for damages).
It was thirty years ago. There would have been a lot of other people chasing him for money.
However, I made sure everyone who might have wanted to shop with any business he set up, knew.
roughbarked said:
The Rev Dodgson said:(It’s not criminal, but it is forbidden by the trade practices act, so you can sue for damages).It was thirty years ago. There would have been a lot of other people chasing him for money.
However, I made sure everyone who might have wanted to shop with any business he set up, knew.
Yes, I wasn’t suggesting you had any real recourse to his actions, just that what he did was not in fact legal.
Another one.
Bitcoin.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Another one.Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is dodgy
Regional Coding, for books, music movies, games and software is legal theft
END REGIONAL CODING
Regional Coding is criminal
Australians are getting ripped off!
CrazyNeutrino said:
Regional Coding, for books, music movies, games and software is legal theftEND REGIONAL CODING
Regional Coding is criminal
Australians are getting ripped off!
We want our money back
CrazyNeutrino said:
CrazyNeutrino said:
Regional Coding, for books, music movies, games and software is legal theftEND REGIONAL CODING
Regional Coding is criminal
Australians are getting ripped off!
We want our money back
If I started a business and called it “Geographical Classification”
and charged 10 percent to 20 percent on top of movies, music, books, games, and software
I could make lots of free money for nothing
Money for nothing, chicks for free….
Paying for government services that take a public servant minutes or less to do but charging a cost equal to a couple of hours payrate.
CrazyNeutrino said:
CrazyNeutrino said:
CrazyNeutrino said:
Regional Coding, for books, music movies, games and software is legal theftEND REGIONAL CODING
Regional Coding is criminal
Australians are getting ripped off!
We want our money back
If I started a business and called it “Geographical Classification”
and charged 10 percent to 20 percent on top of movies, music, books, games, and software
I could make lots of free money for nothing
Money for nothing, chicks for free….
Cymek said:
Paying for government services that take a public servant minutes or less to do but charging a cost equal to a couple of hours payrate.
They learnt that trick from solicitors.
Cymek said:
Paying for government services that take a public servant minutes or less to do but charging a cost equal to a couple of hours payrate.
When doing briefs we had to include a cost of obtaining and answering, the smallest time block was an hour and it was at full cost recovery rates, not just an hourly wage.
AwesomeO said:
Cymek said:
Paying for government services that take a public servant minutes or less to do but charging a cost equal to a couple of hours payrate.
When doing briefs we had to include a cost of obtaining and answering, the smallest time block was an hour and it was at full cost recovery rates, not just an hourly wage.
No wonder nothing actually ever gets done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat