Date: 14/11/2015 04:44:25
From: The_observer
ID: 800803
Subject: Present Rate of Warming

“But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past”

Idea of slow climate change in the past is flawed, researchers say
Nov. 11, 2015

NUREMBERG, Germany, Nov. 11 (UPI) — Climate scientists have mostly been operating under the assumption that climate change in the past happened at a much slower pace than the changes being witnessed today. But researchers in Germany say that assumption is false.

Though the scarcity of proper geologic records inhibits the study of climate changes over short periods of prehistoric time, it’s a mistake to assume the absence of rapid change. Accelerated climate change in the past, scientists from the University of Erlangen-Nuremberg argue, may be invisible, but it’s not absent.

As explained in new paper on the subject, published in the journal Nature Communications, the issue is perspective.

Modern climate change is studied in precise increments of time, allowing researchers to see the sharp rise in temperature and greenhouse gas concentrations. But periods of climatic change from the past are viewed with a wide angle lens.

“Today we can measure the smallest fluctuations in climate whenever they occur,” climate scientist Kilian Eichenseer explained in a press release. “Yet when we look at geological history we’re lucky if we can determine a change in climate over a period of ten thousand years.”

Eichenseer and his colleagues say the speed of climate change in the past was likely similar to today. It isn’t the rate of climate change that’s changed, but our view of time.

Maximum rates of climate change are systematically underestimated in the geological record

David B. Kemp, Kilian Eichenseer & Wolfgang Kiessling

Nature Communications 6, Article number: 8890 doi:10.1038/ncomms9890
Received 29 May 2015 Accepted 02 October 2015 Published 10 November 2015

Abstract

Recently observed rates of environmental change are typically much higher than those inferred for the geological past. At the same time, the magnitudes of ancient changes were often substantially greater than those established in recent history. The most pertinent disparity, however, between recent and geological rates is the timespan over which the rates are measured, which typically differ by several orders of magnitude. Here we show that rates of marked temperature changes inferred from proxy data in Earth history scale with measurement timespan as an approximate power law across nearly six orders of magnitude (102 to >107 years). This scaling reveals how climate signals measured in the geological record alias transient variability, even during the most pronounced climatic perturbations of the Phanerozoic. Our findings indicate that the true attainable pace of climate change on timescales of greatest societal relevance is underestimated in geological archives.

extract from Introduction

Determining the pace and magnitude of ancient climate change is reliant on the accuracy and validity of palaeotemperature proxies, the accuracy of dating methods and the fidelity of the stratigraphic record for recording climate.. These considerations temper the ability to compare directly ancient and modern rates of change. Nevertheless, the clearest disparity between recent and geological assessments of climate change is the attainable temporal resolution at which changes can be identified and rates determined. A compilation of 194 published oceanic and continental temperature changes spanning the Ordovician period (476 Myr ago) to the present provides a holistic picture of the attainable magnitude and rate of both warming and cooling episodes through Earth history across a range of measurement timespans. We demonstrate that magnitudes and rates of geological temperature changes in this compilation exhibit power law scaling with timespan, emphasising how geological data alias short-term climate variability. Consequently, the true attainable pace of ancient climate change may be commonly underestimated, compromising our understanding of the relative pace (and severity) of both ancient and recent climate change.

extract from Discussion

Analysis and discussion of geological and recent climate variability has hitherto failed to acknowledge timespan-dependent scaling as a first order control on the observable magnitude and rate of climate change. This has consequences for accurately assessing the impacts of climate change on life. For example, the niche evolution of vertebrates, inferred from ancestor–descendant comparisons over millions of years, has been contrasted with projected rates of climate change in this century to conclude that the rate of warming exceeds the adaptive potential of animals by orders of magnitude. Our work indicates instead that geological episodes of climatic or evolutionary change likely fail to capture the true pace of changes on timescales of most relevance for understanding the impact of similar changes today. Implicitly, our findings also mean that caution must be exercised when describing recent temperature changes as unprecedented in the context of geological rates. If rates of change are to be meaningfully interpreted, then the measurement timespan must be explicitly specified.

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Date: 14/11/2015 07:10:12
From: buffy
ID: 800806
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

I think this should be in this thread for completeness of definitions.

http://eo.ucar.edu/staff/rrussell/climate/paleoclimate/proxy_span_resolution.html

I think that is an OK reference. I suspect the finer resolution for icecores would be in the less compacted, later bits nearer the surface. I’d expect poorer resolution at longer time periods simply because of compaction. Kind of fits with this OP.

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Date: 14/11/2015 08:44:34
From: JudgeMental
ID: 800819
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:32:01
From: The_observer
ID: 800833
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

buffy said:

I think this should be in this thread for completeness of definitions.

http://eo.ucar.edu/staff/rrussell/climate/paleoclimate/proxy_span_resolution.html

I think that is an OK reference. I suspect the finer resolution for icecores would be in the less compacted, later bits nearer the surface. I’d expect poorer resolution at longer time periods simply because of compaction. Kind of fits with this OP.

Fair enough, but I don’t see what you think that link achieves, & you haven’t stated what you think it adds to the conversation, twice.

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:34:36
From: The_observer
ID: 800835
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

JudgeMental said:



Awwwww, whats up judge? upset you can no longer get around saying that present warming is faster than ever ?

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:36:07
From: JudgeMental
ID: 800837
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

awwww sorry mate that should have been in chat. here it makes it look like i’m feeding the troll.

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:39:31
From: JudgeMental
ID: 800841
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

here, cos if you had one of these you’d go to a real science forum and argue your case. but you don’t. cos you haven’t.

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:40:18
From: The_observer
ID: 800842
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

JudgeMental said:


awwww sorry mate that should have been in chat. here it makes it look like i’m feeding the troll.

You are trolling me in my thread fuckwit.

sorry, ognorant hypocritical fuckwit

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:41:02
From: JudgeMental
ID: 800843
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

:-)

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:42:57
From: The_observer
ID: 800844
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

JudgeMental said:


here, cos if you had one of these you’d go to a real science forum and argue your case. but you don’t. cos you haven’t.

this is the best you can do, pathetic.

funny how I’m the only one you make this argument against, dickhead

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:43:18
From: The_observer
ID: 800845
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

JudgeMental said:

:-)

:D

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:45:05
From: JudgeMental
ID: 800846
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

well, go to a real science forum if you are so confident. but you wont will you? cos you are spineless and gutless and know you’re talking shit.

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:47:23
From: The_observer
ID: 800851
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

JudgeMental said:


well, go to a real science forum if you are so confident. but you wont will you? cos you are spineless and gutless and know you’re talking shit.

listen fuckwit # 2; fuckwit # 1’s quote is at the very top of my OP.

I said to FW #1 last night that there is no proof to back that statement.

FW #1 asked for proof,,, & here I have posted it

simple

just like you

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:48:17
From: JudgeMental
ID: 800852
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

still not going to a real science forum. still, never expect it from people like you.

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Date: 14/11/2015 09:56:05
From: The_observer
ID: 800858
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

JudgeMental said:


still not going to a real science forum. still, never expect it from people like you.

1. tell that to everyone else that debates climate change on this forum.

2. if you have a problem with the science in the OP, then discuss that.

3. if you are upset by the science in the OP, not because it isn’t reputable, but because it goes against what you want to believe, carry on as you have been.

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Date: 14/11/2015 10:10:31
From: The_observer
ID: 800860
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

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Date: 14/11/2015 10:20:41
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 800861
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

A suitable message for the minority.

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Date: 14/11/2015 12:22:19
From: PermeateFree
ID: 800901
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

David B. Kemp, Kilian Eichenseer & Wolfgang Kiessling are referring to rapid climate change of millions of years ago, which have been known about for some time. Just look at the periods of mass extinctions, they are all accompanied by rapid climate change. That is the point!

Observer, stop cherry-picking information and look at the problem as a whole. Climate change is highly complex and involves many things, what you are trying to do is dishonest.

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Date: 14/11/2015 15:04:53
From: buffy
ID: 800974
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

The_observer said:


buffy said:

I think this should be in this thread for completeness of definitions.

http://eo.ucar.edu/staff/rrussell/climate/paleoclimate/proxy_span_resolution.html

I think that is an OK reference. I suspect the finer resolution for icecores would be in the less compacted, later bits nearer the surface. I’d expect poorer resolution at longer time periods simply because of compaction. Kind of fits with this OP.

Fair enough, but I don’t see what you think that link achieves, & you haven’t stated what you think it adds to the conversation, twice.

As I said, just for some definitions of terms. As you are trying to educate people in science, you need to define your terms for people who have a different knowledge set.

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Date: 15/11/2015 12:09:35
From: The_observer
ID: 801361
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

PermeateFree said:


David B. Kemp, Kilian Eichenseer & Wolfgang Kiessling are referring to rapid climate change of millions of years ago, which have been known about for some time. Just look at the periods of mass extinctions, they are all accompanied by rapid climate change. That is the point!

Observer, stop cherry-picking information and look at the problem as a whole. Climate change is highly complex and involves many things, what you are trying to do is dishonest.

moving the goal posts as usual pf.

you stated – “But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past”

I said to you that there is no proof to back up your statement.

you asked for evidence to back up my claim & I have provided it in the OP.

Now if you ever repeat again that “But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past” you are being dishonest.

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Date: 15/11/2015 12:14:10
From: roughbarked
ID: 801362
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

The_observer said:


PermeateFree said:

David B. Kemp, Kilian Eichenseer & Wolfgang Kiessling are referring to rapid climate change of millions of years ago, which have been known about for some time. Just look at the periods of mass extinctions, they are all accompanied by rapid climate change. That is the point!

Observer, stop cherry-picking information and look at the problem as a whole. Climate change is highly complex and involves many things, what you are trying to do is dishonest.

moving the goal posts as usual pf.

you stated – “But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past”

I said to you that there is no proof to back up your statement.

you asked for evidence to back up my claim & I have provided it in the OP.

Now if you ever repeat again that “But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past” you are being dishonest.

Nit picking is a pastime for those covered in them.

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Date: 15/11/2015 17:26:33
From: PermeateFree
ID: 801507
Subject: re: Present Rate of Warming

The_observer said:


PermeateFree said:

David B. Kemp, Kilian Eichenseer & Wolfgang Kiessling are referring to rapid climate change of millions of years ago, which have been known about for some time. Just look at the periods of mass extinctions, they are all accompanied by rapid climate change. That is the point!

Observer, stop cherry-picking information and look at the problem as a whole. Climate change is highly complex and involves many things, what you are trying to do is dishonest.

moving the goal posts as usual pf.

you stated – “But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past”

I said to you that there is no proof to back up your statement.

you asked for evidence to back up my claim & I have provided it in the OP.

Now if you ever repeat again that “But our current temperatures are increasing much faster than in the past” you are being dishonest.

I was asking references about your dismissal of dv’s post.

If I said the above then I apologise, because taking it to its logical conclusion that type of comment usually only applies to recent events, as very few things have not been exceeded at some period in the past. To rephrase that, it was not said in a scientific context, but about a world as we know it.

Should you wish to dwell on rapid climate change, just remember such events are strongly linked to mass extinctions, which is surely the main concern of these discussions.

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