Is it a weed in a native garden? Why or why not?

Speedy said:

Is it a weed in a native garden? Why or why not?

A weed is a plant growing where it is not wanted.

The owner of the garden is the one who can say whether bracken is a weed.

If your definition of a weed is a plant that grows like the clappers and outcompetes less vigorous and more desirable plants, resulting in lots of swearing and regrets, then bracken may not be a good choice to introduce into a native garden.

If your definition of a weed is a plant out of place, then depending on your area, bracken could be OK in a native garden, as there is a native bracken.

ruby said:

If your definition of a weed is a plant that grows like the clappers and outcompetes less vigorous and more desirable plants, resulting in lots of swearing and regrets, then bracken may not be a good choice to introduce into a native garden.
ruby said:

He’s not asking whether it is a good choice. He is asking whether it is a weed.

If your definition of a weed is a plant out of place, then depending on your area, bracken could be OK in a native garden, as there is a native bracken.

There’s heaps of native bracken.

Well, I’ve made heaps of native bracken.
<insert swearing="" here="">

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-29/rome,-milan-banish-cars-as-smog-smothers-italy/7057390

the government could do better by simply giving people free electric scooters

Fair enough. I am the owner of the garden. Bracken is native to the area. I don’t mind it, but in some parts of my garden it does appear to be out-competing other plants which I have planted (but which are also native to the area).

Perhaps my question should have been:

“Is it desirable to allow bracken to grow in a native garden?”

or better still …

“Can bracken and other natives be grown together in a native garden successfully?”

it is easy to pull out to control. just weed out the ones you don’t want.

Speedy said:

Fair enough. I am the owner of the garden. Bracken is native to the area. I don’t mind it, but in some parts of my garden it does appear to be out-competing other plants which I have planted (but which are also native to the area).

Perhaps my question should have been:

“Is it desirable to allow bracken to grow in a native garden?”

or better still …

“Can bracken and other natives be grown together in a native garden successfully?”

I think the answer to this again will be – if you want it in the garden then it’s probably desirable and on the second probably, but you’ll be busy judging by Rubys response.

It is easy to pull out, so you can use it for mulch. But it grows again quickly.

JudgeMental said:

it is easy to pull out to control. just weed out the ones you don’t want.

Yes, that’s what I have been doing for many years. It is not too much work for a garden of my size.

Does it release a chemical to stunt the growth of other plants, or is it simply the competition for space and nutrients that out-competes the others?

that’s what i do. cut it up with the secateurs. good for putting potassium into the soil IIRC.

poikilotherm said:

Speedy said:

Fair enough. I am the owner of the garden. Bracken is native to the area. I don’t mind it, but in some parts of my garden it does appear to be out-competing other plants which I have planted (but which are also native to the area).

Perhaps my question should have been:

“Is it desirable to allow bracken to grow in a native garden?”

or better still …

“Can bracken and other natives be grown together in a native garden successfully?”

I think the answer to this again will be – if you want it in the garden then it’s probably desirable and on the second probably, but you’ll be busy judging by Rubys response.

So desirable it is then.

Perhaps I will allow it to grow in a few pockets only, away from some of the other plants.

Allelopathy: Bracken fern is known to produce and release allelopathic chemicals, which is an important factor in its ability to dominate other vegetation, particularly in regrowth after fire. Its chemical diffusions, shady canopy and its thick litter inhibit other plant species from establishing themselves – with the occasional exception of plants which support rare butterflies. Herb and tree seedling growth may be inhibited even after bracken fern is removed, apparently because active plant toxins remain in the soil.
Brackens substitute the characteristics of a woodland canopy, and are important for giving shade to European plants such as common bluebell and wood anemone, where the woodland does not exist. These plants are intolerant to stock trampling. Dead bracken provides a warm microclimate for development of the immature stages. Climbing corydalis, wild gladiolus and chickweed wintergreen also seem to benefit from the conditions found under bracken stands.
The high humidity helps mosses survive underneath including Campylopus flexuosus, Hypnum cupressiforme, Polytrichum commune, Pseudoscelopodium purum and Rhytidiadelphus squarrosus.

wiki

I have only been getting rid of the dead and dying stems. If dug up, the seem to be attached to a network of roots which can remain dormant for quite some time.

roundup will kill it.

JudgeMental said:

Allelopathy: Bracken fern is known to produce and release allelopathic chemicals, which is an important factor in its ability to dominate other vegetation, particularly in regrowth after fire. Its chemical diffusions, shady canopy and its thick litter inhibit other plant species from establishing themselves – with the occasional exception of plants which support rare butterflies. Herb and tree seedling growth may be inhibited even after bracken fern is removed, apparently because active plant toxins remain in the soil.
Brackens substitute the characteristics of a woodland canopy, and are important for giving shade to European plants such as common bluebell and wood anemone, where the woodland does not exist. These plants are intolerant to stock trampling. Dead bracken provides a warm microclimate for development of the immature stages. Climbing corydalis, wild gladiolus and chickweed wintergreen also seem to benefit from the conditions found under bracken stands.
The high humidity helps mosses survive underneath including Campylopus flexuosus, Hypnum cupressiforme, Polytrichum commune, Pseudoscelopodium purum and Rhytidiadelphus squarrosus.

wiki

Thanks. That explains things. Those roots underground must release these chemicals even when there appears to be no plant there.

I’d dispute the easy to pull out, but then my experience is 130 acres of it. If you are prepared to continue the control you have been applying, it’s fine. In the bush, it sort of overshadows the other plants, so the orchids don’t flower as prolifically. After our bushfire, the bracken curls regenerated quite quickly (I’ll have to find my notes as to just how quickly) but in fact the orchids were still there underneath and had a brilliant season before the bracken got tall again. In places on our block there are fronds over 2m tall. This stuff has been there a very long time.

As we can’t have bushfires all the time, and we are next to a bluegum plantation, we have a plan (OK, not yet actually put into action) to slash down the bracken in patches on a rotating basis to let the underneath plants, orchids and herbs, have a go every few years. You could probably do that on a small scale.

When I enquired about actually getting rid of some of it, apparently you need a bracken roller. You cut down the fronds and then run a very heavy roller over to squash the spreading root system under the ground. It’s a bit like couch grass…..it just keeps spreading.

JudgeMental said:

roundup will kill it.

Not our version it won’t. And most definitely not mature fronds.

JudgeMental said:

Allelopathy: Bracken fern is known to produce and release allelopathic chemicals, which is an important factor in its ability to dominate other vegetation, particularly in regrowth after fire. Its chemical diffusions, shady canopy and its thick litter inhibit other plant species from establishing themselves – with the occasional exception of plants which support rare butterflies. Herb and tree seedling growth may be inhibited even after bracken fern is removed, apparently because active plant toxins remain in the soil.
Brackens substitute the characteristics of a woodland canopy, and are important for giving shade to European plants such as common bluebell and wood anemone, where the woodland does not exist. These plants are intolerant to stock trampling. Dead bracken provides a warm microclimate for development of the immature stages. Climbing corydalis, wild gladiolus and chickweed wintergreen also seem to benefit from the conditions found under bracken stands.
The high humidity helps mosses survive underneath including Campylopus flexuosus, Hypnum cupressiforme, Polytrichum commune, Pseudoscelopodium purum and Rhytidiadelphus squarrosus.

wiki

Thanks for that.

that’s why you get it early when it is in its greatest growth state. it is the best way to use that herbicide.

Here you go…all you ever wanted to know about Australian bracken, when considered from the pastoralists viewpoint!

http://weeds.dpi.nsw.gov.au/Weeds/Details/235

Speedy said:

JudgeMental said:

Allelopathy: Bracken fern is known to produce and release allelopathic chemicals, which is an important factor in its ability to dominate other vegetation, particularly in regrowth after fire. Its chemical diffusions, shady canopy and its thick litter inhibit other plant species from establishing themselves – with the occasional exception of plants which support rare butterflies. Herb and tree seedling growth may be inhibited even after bracken fern is removed, apparently because active plant toxins remain in the soil.
Brackens substitute the characteristics of a woodland canopy, and are important for giving shade to European plants such as common bluebell and wood anemone, where the woodland does not exist. These plants are intolerant to stock trampling. Dead bracken provides a warm microclimate for development of the immature stages. Climbing corydalis, wild gladiolus and chickweed wintergreen also seem to benefit from the conditions found under bracken stands.
The high humidity helps mosses survive underneath including Campylopus flexuosus, Hypnum cupressiforme, Polytrichum commune, Pseudoscelopodium purum and Rhytidiadelphus squarrosus.

wiki

Thanks. That explains things. Those roots underground must release these chemicals even when there appears to be no plant there.

Bracken in Australia will completely dominate the understory vegetation and if you check well established bracken in the bush, next to nothing will be growing under it. It can expand rapidly and within a short time take over quite large areas. However, it may offer protection to small native animals from introduced predators and small birds will often nest in it.

buffy said:

I’d dispute the easy to pull out, but then my experience is 130 acres of it. If you are prepared to continue the control you have been applying, it’s fine. In the bush, it sort of overshadows the other plants, so the orchids don’t flower as prolifically. After our bushfire, the bracken curls regenerated quite quickly (I’ll have to find my notes as to just how quickly) but in fact the orchids were still there underneath and had a brilliant season before the bracken got tall again. In places on our block there are fronds over 2m tall. This stuff has been there a very long time.

As we can’t have bushfires all the time, and we are next to a bluegum plantation, we have a plan (OK, not yet actually put into action) to slash down the bracken in patches on a rotating basis to let the underneath plants, orchids and herbs, have a go every few years. You could probably do that on a small scale.

When I enquired about actually getting rid of some of it, apparently you need a bracken roller. You cut down the fronds and then run a very heavy roller over to squash the spreading root system under the ground. It’s a bit like couch grass…..it just keeps spreading.

2m tall is really something, buffy. Ours are smaller than that, but some would still be taller than 1m. They are the hard-leaf bracken, although there are a few stands of the soft-leaf variety in some of the shadier, wetter pockets of bushland nearby.

Your plan sounds like a good one.

The bracken roller sounds like it will kill everything underneath it though, not just the bracket roots.

goats

While the common myth is that goats eat anything, the truth is that goats love invasive plants and overgrown brush. Just a few types of vegetation that goats can eat and clear away include

http://rentagoat.com/what-do-goats-eat/

JudgeMental said:

that’s why you get it early when it is in its greatest growth state. it is the best way to use that herbicide.

Trouble being that as the bracken spreads into new areas, the roundup will also kill off the vegetation you want to keep. There is a spray specifically developed for its control, although from experience, it will only keep it in check in areas where not established, It should also only be sprayed onto new fronds.

I suspect before the fox and cat were introduced, small herbivores would eat the developing new fronds and so keep it under control, but as these animals have largely disappeared, it now it is very difficult to get the upper hand.

Speedy said:

buffy said:

I’d dispute the easy to pull out, but then my experience is 130 acres of it. If you are prepared to continue the control you have been applying, it’s fine. In the bush, it sort of overshadows the other plants, so the orchids don’t flower as prolifically. After our bushfire, the bracken curls regenerated quite quickly (I’ll have to find my notes as to just how quickly) but in fact the orchids were still there underneath and had a brilliant season before the bracken got tall again. In places on our block there are fronds over 2m tall. This stuff has been there a very long time.

As we can’t have bushfires all the time, and we are next to a bluegum plantation, we have a plan (OK, not yet actually put into action) to slash down the bracken in patches on a rotating basis to let the underneath plants, orchids and herbs, have a go every few years. You could probably do that on a small scale.

When I enquired about actually getting rid of some of it, apparently you need a bracken roller. You cut down the fronds and then run a very heavy roller over to squash the spreading root system under the ground. It’s a bit like couch grass…..it just keeps spreading.

2m tall is really something, buffy. Ours are smaller than that, but some would still be taller than 1m. They are the hard-leaf bracken, although there are a few stands of the soft-leaf variety in some of the shadier, wetter pockets of bushland nearby.

Your plan sounds like a good one.

The bracken roller sounds like it will kill everything underneath it though, not just the bracket roots.

Should only be used in bracken dominated areas, not where other vegetation survives.

wookiemeister said:

I think the goats would eat everything else before eating the bracken, plus they spread weeds everywhere.

Just checking my notes and our burn was very hot (this was in 2005):

The Xanthorrhoea was in obvious regrowth in 11 days:

And I don’t have a photo of the bracken in my Photobucket, but it showed up at 18 days. At 40 days the fronds had opened into fronds, but were sparse. By 60 days we had a light green show across most of the bracken area. The prickly wattle has certainly been able to compete. Ten years on it has grown phenomenally amongst the bracken.

>>I suspect before the fox and cat were introduced, small herbivores would eat the developing new fronds and so keep it under control, but as these animals have largely disappeared, it now it is very difficult to get the upper hand<<

I reckon new fronds must be nectar to wallabies…..I was tramping around looking to see what was coming up and damn nearly walked into a wallaby so intent on eating the new fronds that it didn’t hear or see me either.

:)

buffy said:

Just checking my notes and our burn was very hot (this was in 2005):

The Xanthorrhoea was in obvious regrowth in 11 days:

And I don’t have a photo of the bracken in my Photobucket, but it showed up at 18 days. At 40 days the fronds had opened into fronds, but were sparse. By 60 days we had a light green show across most of the bracken area. The prickly wattle has certainly been able to compete. Ten years on it has grown phenomenally amongst the bracken.

Probably because it is a fast grower and can grow over the bracken before it closes in on it.

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

I think the goats would eat everything else before eating the bracken, plus they spread weeds everywhere.

you could use them as an initial clearing mechanism

then spray the weeds as they pop up, perhaps hitting weeds with steam could be cheaper?

you could have a robot trundling around spraying weeds with steam

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2163583.htm

ANNE KRUGER, PRESENTER: The humble goat has an appetite that’s almost as legendary as its toughness. So much so, that it’s often blamed for turning marginal country into a desert.

wookiemeister said:

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2163583.htm

ANNE KRUGER, PRESENTER: The humble goat has an appetite that’s almost as legendary as its toughness. So much so, that it’s often blamed for turning marginal country into a desert.

JUSTINE HALL: I think that’s another one of the old wives tales, Tim, I’m sorry. Because in fact they pick the heads off before they mature and they have not set seed. And also their digestive tract, according to Professor Lang, is more like a camel, and whatever they eat they usually digest. So no, they don’t spread seed from that point of view. And as you saw today, they are picking the seed heads off before the flowers have even, as soon as they get a colour, they will take those heads off, by choice.

wookiemeister said:

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

I think the goats would eat everything else before eating the bracken, plus they spread weeds everywhere.

you could use them as an initial clearing mechanism

then spray the weeds as they pop up, perhaps hitting weeds with steam could be cheaper?

They would eat the new fronds, but unlikely to eat the over mature and dead fronds that make up most of the overgrown areas. Plus they would eat everything else they found tasty and don’t forget the weeds they will introduce, thereby creating another weed problem.

depends on how you apply the roundup. if you don’t want to kill other stuff, ball up a piece of cloth, tie to a stick, wet with roundup and dab it on the offending plant. i also use a 1 litre spray bottle that you can adjust to a jet.

I have found a use for the bracken fronds, but you have to be prepared to cut them and then snip them up. My chooks like them in their nesting box. And I like the results of mixing bracken, shredded paper and chook poo. Wonderful for the veggie garden, either buried under a row of lettuce seedlings, or used as a mulch to dig in later.

wookiemeister said:

then spray the weeds as they pop up, perhaps hitting weeds with steam could be cheaper?

A couple of guys I used to work for who have a very large and progressive flower farm have a machine that steams weeds. It does a very nice job, but you’d want to be careful who you let use it.

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2163583.htm

ANNE KRUGER, PRESENTER: The humble goat has an appetite that’s almost as legendary as its toughness. So much so, that it’s often blamed for turning marginal country into a desert.

JUSTINE HALL: I think that’s another one of the old wives tales, Tim, I’m sorry. Because in fact they pick the heads off before they mature and they have not set seed. And also their digestive tract, according to Professor Lang, is more like a camel, and whatever they eat they usually digest. So no, they don’t spread seed from that point of view. And as you saw today, they are picking the seed heads off before the flowers have even, as soon as they get a colour, they will take those heads off, by choice.

Ferns do not produce flowers or seed, so forget that aspect. There are many animals that are the main distributors of various plants that rely on the seed passing through their digestive track to aid germination, so you can forget about that too. Goats with hard hooves disturb the ground thereby creating a good habitat for weeds to invade. I sold a property to someone who kept goats and when they were removed after a few years they left a dreadful weed problem. Believe me, goats are not good for weed control in the bush.

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2163583.htm

ANNE KRUGER, PRESENTER: The humble goat has an appetite that’s almost as legendary as its toughness. So much so, that it’s often blamed for turning marginal country into a desert.

JUSTINE HALL: I think that’s another one of the old wives tales, Tim, I’m sorry. Because in fact they pick the heads off before they mature and they have not set seed. And also their digestive tract, according to Professor Lang, is more like a camel, and whatever they eat they usually digest. So no, they don’t spread seed from that point of view. And as you saw today, they are picking the seed heads off before the flowers have even, as soon as they get a colour, they will take those heads off, by choice.

Ferns do not produce flowers or seed, so forget that aspect. There are many animals that are the main distributors of various plants that rely on the seed passing through their digestive track to aid germination, so you can forget about that too. Goats with hard hooves disturb the ground thereby creating a good habitat for weeds to invade. I sold a property to someone who kept goats and when they were removed after a few years they left a dreadful weed problem. Believe me, goats are not good for weed control in the bush.

crazy idea

put boots on the goat’s’ feet

JudgeMental said:

depends on how you apply the roundup. if you don’t want to kill other stuff, ball up a piece of cloth, tie to a stick, wet with roundup and dab it on the offending plant. i also use a 1 litre spray bottle that you can adjust to a jet.

You have obviosly never done this on bracken on a large scale. If you are going to use that treatment, it would be much safer to pull out by hand the advancing fronds.

steam could be an environmentally friendly way of killing weeds

i’ve been shown a place in the snowy mountains where blackberry bush has taken over an entire valley ie as far as the eye can see

apparently its the millions of seeds that you’ll never be able to get rid of that are the ongoing problem

the only thing you can do is wait for the weed to pop up its head, spray it and keep doing that for a few hundred years or so?

one idea ive had is using quadcopters with a small vial of weed killer slung under the bottom

they fly low over the earth and spot a weed, they then spray directly onto the weed and fly off again

you could have hundreds of these drones working away

well, seeing as the original question was about a garden i thought i would keep the tips relevant to that question.

wookiemeister said:

apparently its the millions of seeds that you’ll never be able to get rid of that are the ongoing problem

the only thing you can do is wait for the weed to pop up its head, spray it and keep doing that for a few hundred years or so?

Bracken produces spores and very often they remain infertile (do not produce spores), but it relies on a vigorous underground rhizome to spread, which is very difficult to control. Most invasive weeds produce many seeds, very fast growing that will germinate very quickly.

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

apparently its the millions of seeds that you’ll never be able to get rid of that are the ongoing problem

the only thing you can do is wait for the weed to pop up its head, spray it and keep doing that for a few hundred years or so?

Bracken produces spores and very often they remain infertile (do not produce spores), but it relies on a vigorous underground rhizome to spread, which is very difficult to control. Most invasive weeds produce many seeds, very fast growing that will germinate very quickly.

i’ve seen this with this tree/ weed that seems to proliferate

it creates new “tree“s by sending roots around itself

i guess weed killer is the only way to kill these things

JudgeMental said:

well, seeing as the original question was about a garden i thought i would keep the tips relevant to that question.

Roundup is not a good herbicide for bracken, as it must be used in such high concentrations that it will also kill off most of the vegetation it comes in contact. So generally not good for a garden setting where individual plants are more important to the grower that those in the bush.

Roundup is very useful and I use it a lot, but even with low consentrations will damage surrounding vegetation. In a bush setting containing vegetation you want to keep, spraying is not a very good method, as it can create more problems than it is worth, by accidentally killing off good vegetation and leaving vacant ground for weeds to invade.

and i have told of a method that wont kill off surrounding plants. i utilise this method, amongst others, to control most weeds in and around my property. so i know from experience they work.

wookiemeister said:

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

apparently its the millions of seeds that you’ll never be able to get rid of that are the ongoing problem

the only thing you can do is wait for the weed to pop up its head, spray it and keep doing that for a few hundred years or so?

Bracken produces spores and very often they remain infertile (do not produce spores), but it relies on a vigorous underground rhizome to spread, which is very difficult to control. Most invasive weeds produce many seeds, very fast growing that will germinate very quickly.

i’ve seen this with this tree/ weed that seems to proliferate

it creates new “tree“s by sending roots around itself

i guess weed killer is the only way to kill these things

By doing so, you are also likely to damage the tree as you are referring to suckers that grow directly from the tree’s root system.

JudgeMental said:

and i have told of a method that wont kill off surrounding plants. i utilise this method, amongst others, to control most weeds in and around my property. so i know from experience they work.

No doubt you do, but you need to be very careful near other plants. The method you describe is very good for controlling flat weeds, especially in lawns.

Speedy said:

Fair enough. I am the owner of the garden. Bracken is native to the area. I don’t mind it, but in some parts of my garden it does appear to be out-competing other plants which I have planted (but which are also native to the area).

Perhaps my question should have been:

“Is it desirable to allow bracken to grow in a native garden?”

or better still …

“Can bracken and other natives be grown together in a native garden successfully?”

Close shading, ie: low shrubs that hug the ground or are pruned so that they shade the ground. This is one way to keep the bracken out.

I knew a woman called Fern once. She preferred Maiden Hair, but we thought of her as Bracken.

Woodie said:

I knew a woman called Fern once. She preferred Maiden Hair, but we thought of her as Bracken.

Still fronds?

dv said:

Woodie said:

I knew a woman called Fern once. She preferred Maiden Hair, but we thought of her as Bracken.

Still fronds?

I didn’t get it.

Spore joke.

Speedy said:

dv said:

Woodie said:

I knew a woman called Fern once. She preferred Maiden Hair, but we thought of her as Bracken.

Still fronds?

I didn’t get it.

Spore joke.

That’s how he look sporophyte