Date: 11/01/2016 13:07:28
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 829381
Subject: Goose bumps?

The human body contains of the rough order of 5 million muscles, most of them arrector pili muscles attached to hair follicles.
Right?

Nobody knows within a factor of two or more, because sometimes a single arrector pili muscle connects to more than one hair follicle.
Right?

Other mammals, particularly the otter, cat and porcupine, have been observed to have arrector pili muscles that make hairs stand erect. How far in evolutionary terms do you need to go before they don’t exist, and the number of muscles in a body drops back to a saner 1000 or so? Are there mammals that don’t have them? Hairs, feathers and scales are keratinous structures linked by evolution, so why don’t fish have arrector pili muscles, or do they?

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:18:21
From: OCDC
ID: 829383
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

mollwollfumble said:

Are there mammals that don’t have them?
Pinnipeds.

mollwollfumble said:

Hairs, feathers and scales are keratinous structures linked by evolution, so why don’t fish have arrector pili muscles, or do they?
By definition, arrector pili are attached to hair follicles.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:23:16
From: The_observer
ID: 829384
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

OCDC said:


mollwollfumble said:
Are there mammals that don’t have them?
Pinnipeds.

mollwollfumble said:

Hairs, feathers and scales are keratinous structures linked by evolution, so why don’t fish have arrector pili muscles, or do they?
By definition, arrector pili are attached to hair follicles.

“Pinnipeds (sea mammals like seals and walruses) and sea otters lack arrector pili, almost certainly reflecting a secondary loss after invasion of the water.

Why they’ve lost them, and we haven’t, is a mystery. Perhaps they’re more deleterious if you’re living in water.”
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Date: 11/01/2016 13:26:56
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829385
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

I find goose bumps on women are sexy, and some aspects of visual stimuli are evolutionary

for example the brain rewards people for looking at beautiful faces, and the reward is chemical

but I can see hair and goose bumps fading away in the future

and with people walking around in shoes all the time toes and feet might change as well

people cover their bodies with clothing that effects mate choice (less sexual pheromones floating around in the air)

the pill effects women choosing a mate

women have babies later on in life will have evolution effects as well, maybe weakening the human genome

and in general there are many ways humans are distancing from nature

living in square boxes and driving to work 9 to 5 for most of their lives

religion has also distanced people from nature

media driven pornography is effecting people

but getting back to goose bumps

clothing and living indoors will see goose bumps and hair become a thing of the past

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:31:58
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829387
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

clothing and living indoors will see goose bumps and hair become a thing of the past

don’t think evolution quite works like that.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:34:47
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829388
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

ChrispenEvan said:


clothing and living indoors will see goose bumps and hair become a thing of the past

don’t think evolution quite works like that.

people have been wearing clothing for hundreds of thousands of years

must have some effect

but if you can prove otherwise I’ll listen

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:37:34
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829389
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

but if you can prove otherwise I’ll listen

LOL, you made the claim, you back it up.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:42:07
From: dv
ID: 829392
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Ermagerd, Lamerkersm!

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:43:01
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829393
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

ChrispenEvan said:


but if you can prove otherwise I’ll listen

LOL, you made the claim, you back it up.

so you cannot prove otherwise?

well Ill have go at it

for the simple reason that wearing clothing for most of the time rubs away at the hair and the skin

and the body is warmer with clothing and bedding, warmer bodies mean less insulation, inhibiting hair growth

also clothing blocks out sunlight which would also have an effect on inhibiting hair growth

imo

but they could many other reasons

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:43:57
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829395
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

though epigenetics is an interesting process.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:44:38
From: roughbarked
ID: 829396
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


ChrispenEvan said:

but if you can prove otherwise I’ll listen

LOL, you made the claim, you back it up.

so you cannot prove otherwise?

well Ill have go at it

for the simple reason that wearing clothing for most of the time rubs away at the hair and the skin

and the body is warmer with clothing and bedding, warmer bodies mean less insulation, inhibiting hair growth

also clothing blocks out sunlight which would also have an effect on inhibiting hair growth

imo

but they could many other reasons

http://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/posts/829380/

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:45:08
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829398
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

for the simple reason that wearing clothing for most of the time rubs away at the hair and the skin

and the body is warmer with clothing and bedding, warmer bodies mean less insulation, inhibiting hair growth

also clothing blocks out sunlight which would also have an effect on inhibiting hair growth

that’s definitely isn’t how evolution works.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:45:39
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829399
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

ChrispenEvan said:


though epigenetics is an interesting process.

yes, behaviours that influence genetics is interesting

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:47:40
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829401
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


ChrispenEvan said:

but if you can prove otherwise I’ll listen

LOL, you made the claim, you back it up.

so you cannot prove otherwise?

well Ill have go at it

for the simple reason that wearing clothing for most of the time rubs away at the hair and the skin

and the body is warmer with clothing and bedding, warmer bodies mean less insulation, inhibiting hair growth

also clothing blocks out sunlight which would also have an effect on inhibiting hair growth

imo

but they could many other reasons

its not an overnight thing, it takes many years

and some changes in genetics happen faster than others

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:48:18
From: dv
ID: 829403
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CN: evolution works by critters with particular traits not dying before they reproduce, or otherwise being favoured in terms of number of offspring or their offspring’s chance to make it to maturity etc.

If you want to show that hairlessness will increase by evolution, you need to show that hairiness is making people die young, or stopping them from reproducing.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:48:58
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829404
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

ChrispenEvan said:


for the simple reason that wearing clothing for most of the time rubs away at the hair and the skin

and the body is warmer with clothing and bedding, warmer bodies mean less insulation, inhibiting hair growth

also clothing blocks out sunlight which would also have an effect on inhibiting hair growth

that’s definitely isn’t how evolution works.

well thats what I would call external influences effecting genetic evolution over time

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:49:26
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829406
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

i guess being warmer could result in those people being in bed and therefore breeding rather than freezing their arses off outside and dying.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:51:08
From: dv
ID: 829407
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

ChrispenEvan said:


i guess being warmer could result in those people being in bed and therefore breeding rather than freezing their arses off outside and dying.

Surely hairier people are less likely to freeze.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:53:27
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829408
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Surely hairier people are less likely to freeze.

i was thinking not too hairy, not having a pelt say.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 13:53:53
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829410
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=external+influnces+on+genetics

from
https://www.boundless.com/psychology/textbooks/boundless-psychology-textbook/intelligence-11/introduction-to-intelligence-61/genetic-and-environmental-impacts-on-intelligence-243-12778/

A gene is the unit of heredity by which a biological trait is passed down through generations of human beings. Heritability describes what percentage of the variation of a trait in a population is due to genetic differences in that population (as opposed to environmental factors). Some traits, like eye color, are highly heritable and can be easily traced. However, even highly heritable traits are subject to environmental influences during development. Intelligence is generally considered to be even more complicated to trace to one source because it is a polygenic trait, influenced by many interacting genes.

Source: Boundless. “Genetic and Environmental Impacts on Intelligence.” Boundless Psychology. Boundless, 20 Aug. 2015. Retrieved 11 Jan. 2016 from https://www.boundless.com/psychology/textbooks/boundless-psychology-textbook/intelligence-11/introduction-to-intelligence-61/genetic-and-environmental-impacts-on-intelligence-243-12778/

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:55:39
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829411
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

and

External factors can affect your genes

https://www.healthxchange.com.sg/News/Pages/External-factors-can-affect-your-genes.aspx

Other studies have found that the same goes for maternal exposure to famine and chemical toxins.

For example, children conceived during the Dutch Hunger Winter of 1944 to 1945 had lower birthweight and a higher risk of cardiovascular disease later in life. Women who were exposed to a class of chemicals called phthalates, which are used to make plastics more flexible, gave birth to sons who had a higher rate of genital abnormalities.

And even people who had post-traumatic stress disorder – say, assault victims or soldiers after a war – showed changes in their immune-system gene expression.

What all this means is that humans are tremendously sensitive to external influences both in the womb and immediately after birth.

From animal and human-genetics studies, researchers have found that such changes can affect the expression of genes, even as the underlying genetic code remains the same.

This relatively new field of study, which has taken off in the past five or so years, is known as epigenetics, meaning “over or above genetics” in Greek.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:56:37
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829412
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Other studies have found that the same goes for maternal exposure to famine and chemical toxins.

epigenetics i believe.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:58:47
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829413
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

ChrispenEvan said:


Other studies have found that the same goes for maternal exposure to famine and chemical toxins.

epigenetics i believe.

This relatively new field of study, which has taken off in the past five or so years, is known as epigenetics, meaning “over or above genetics” in Greek.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:58:53
From: The_observer
ID: 829414
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

“In humans, the arrector pili—and their function when we’re cold or watching a scary movie—is a vestigial trait. It serves no purpose in our own species, but is there as an evolutionary remnant, for it has an adaptive function in our relatives, and did so in our ancestors. It’s evidence of our evolution from fur-raising ancestors.

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Date: 11/01/2016 13:59:27
From: dv
ID: 829415
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Yeah… of course external factors affect genetics. This is not exactly news.

But to recap:
You’ve made a claim that natural selection will lead to human hairlessness.
You now need to show how hairlessness will lead to improved survival levels or greater numbers of offspring.

We’re still at that point in the conversation.

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:00:31
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829417
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


ChrispenEvan said:

Other studies have found that the same goes for maternal exposure to famine and chemical toxins.

epigenetics i believe.

This relatively new field of study, which has taken off in the past five or so years, is known as epigenetics, meaning “over or above genetics” in Greek.

epigenetics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

Epigenetics is the study, in the field of genetics, of cellular and physiological phenotypic trait variations that are caused by external or environmental factors that switch genes on and off and affect how cells read genes instead of being caused by changes in the DNA sequence. Hence, epigenetic research seeks to describe dynamic alterations in the transcriptional potential of a cell. These alterations may or may not be heritable, although the use of the term “epigenetic” to describe processes that are not heritable is controversial. Unlike genetics based on changes to the DNA sequence (the genotype), the changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have other causes, thus use of the prefix epi- (Greek: επί- over, outside of, around).

this bit

caused by external or environmental factors

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:01:02
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829419
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

dv said:


Yeah… of course external factors affect genetics. This is not exactly news.

But to recap:
You’ve made a claim that natural selection will lead to human hairlessness.
You now need to show how hairlessness will lead to improved survival levels or greater numbers of offspring.

We’re still at that point in the conversation.

Give me money and a lab

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:01:42
From: dv
ID: 829421
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


dv said:

Yeah… of course external factors affect genetics. This is not exactly news.

But to recap:
You’ve made a claim that natural selection will lead to human hairlessness.
You now need to show how hairlessness will lead to improved survival levels or greater numbers of offspring.

We’re still at that point in the conversation.

Give me money and a lab

Can you at least suggest a mechanism that would supoort your claim?

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 14:02:05
From: The_observer
ID: 829422
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


dv said:

Yeah… of course external factors affect genetics. This is not exactly news.

Give me money and a lab

LOL, I can just imagine

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 14:03:27
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829423
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

dv said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

dv said:

Yeah… of course external factors affect genetics. This is not exactly news.

But to recap:
You’ve made a claim that natural selection will lead to human hairlessness.
You now need to show how hairlessness will lead to improved survival levels or greater numbers of offspring.

We’re still at that point in the conversation.

Give me money and a lab

Can you at least suggest a mechanism that would supoort your claim?

Our ancestors were more more hairy in the past

or did we all have bare skin from day one?

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:04:06
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 829424
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

no, this bit

Epigenetics is the study, in the field of genetics, of cellular and physiological phenotypic trait variations that are caused by external or environmental factors that switch genes on and off and affect how cells read genes instead of being caused by changes in the DNA sequence.

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:04:37
From: The_observer
ID: 829425
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

why evolution is true

A vestigial trait in humans: the arrector pili

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:05:34
From: wookiemeister
ID: 829426
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


dv said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Give me money and a lab

Can you at least suggest a mechanism that would supoort your claim?

Our ancestors were more more hairy in the past

or did we all have bare skin from day one?


hairier

don’t fall into the pigeon english as spoken to the badly educated and non english speaker

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Date: 11/01/2016 14:07:02
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829427
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

The_observer said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

dv said:

Yeah… of course external factors affect genetics. This is not exactly news.

Give me money and a lab

LOL, I can just imagine

Im thinking genetic engineering

and using all those millions of tiny muscles to be reprogrammed from hair follicle duty to do something else

maybe something like the human skin being able to reflect light to show movie’s or emotions?

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 14:08:32
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829430
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

wookiemeister said:


CrazyNeutrino said:

dv said:

Can you at least suggest a mechanism that would supoort your claim?

Our ancestors were more more hairy in the past

or did we all have bare skin from day one?


hairier

don’t fall into the pigeon english as spoken to the badly educated and non english speaker

I’m so used to that we are hairy site

oops

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 14:08:49
From: dv
ID: 829431
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

CrazyNeutrino said:


dv said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Give me money and a lab

Can you at least suggest a mechanism that would supoort your claim?

Our ancestors were more more hairy in the past

or did we all have bare skin from day one?

Good rejoinder!

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 14:41:01
From: Bubblecar
ID: 829443
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Some ideas:

Determining the evolutionary function of androgenic hair must take into account both human evolution and the thermal properties of hair itself.

The thermodynamic properties of hair are based on the properties of the keratin strands and amino acids that combine into a ‘coiled’ structure. This structure lends to many of the properties of hair, such as its ability to stretch and return to its original length. It should be noted that this coiled structure does not predispose curly or frizzy hair, both of which are defined by oval or triangular hair follicle cross-sections.

Evolution of less body hair

Hair is a very good thermal conductor and aids heat transfer both into and out of the body. When goose bumps are observed, small muscles (Arrector pili muscle) contract to raise the hairs both to provide insulation, by reducing cooling by air convection of the skin, as well as in response to central nervous stimulus, similar to the feeling of ‘hairs standing up on the back of your neck’. This phenomenon also occurs when static charge is built up and stored in the hair. Keratin however can easily be damaged by excessive heat and dryness, suggesting that extreme sun exposure, perhaps due to a lack of clothing, would result in perpetual hair destruction, eventually resulting in the genes being bred out in favor of high skin pigmentation. It is also true that parasites can live on and in hair thus peoples who preserved their body hair would have required greater general hygiene to prevent diseases.

Markus J. Rantala of the Department of Biological and Environmental Science, University of Jyväskylä, Finland, said humans evolved by “natural selection” to be hairless when the trade off of “having fewer parasites” became more important than having a “warming, furry coat”.

P.E. Wheeler of the Department of Biology at Liverpool Polytechnic said quadrupedal Savannah mammals of similar volume to humans have body hair to keep warm while only larger quadrupedal Savannah mammals lack body hair, because their body volume itself is enough to keep them warm. Therefore, Wheeler said humans who should have body hair based on predictions of body volume alone for Savannah mammals evolved no body hair after evolving bipedalism which he said reduced the amount of body area exposed to the sun by 40%, reducing the solar warming effect on the human body.

Decreased body hair began in humanoids over 2 million years ago and aided persistence hunting (the ability to catch prey in very long distance chases) in the warm savannas where humanoids first evolved. The two main advantages are felt to be bipedal locomotion and greater thermal load dissipation capacity due to better sweating and less hair.

Sexual selection

Cambridge University zoologist Charles Goodhart believed men have long preferred the “hairless trait” in women, ever since the existence of the “hairless trait” occurred in our hairy forebears 70,000–120,000 years ago during the last episode of global warming. Goodhart argued that humans are relatively hairless today compared to our ancestors because women who were sexually selected for their “hairless trait” passed it on to both their male and female offspring.

Markus J. Rantala of the Department of Biological and Environmental Science, University of Jyväskylä, Finland, said the existence of androgen dependent hair on men could be explained by sexual attraction whereby hair on the genitals would trap pheromones and hair on the chin would make the chin appear more massive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_hair#Evolution_of_less_body_hair

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 15:05:01
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829452
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Bubblecar said:


Some ideas:

Determining the evolutionary function of androgenic hair must take into account both human evolution and the thermal properties of hair itself.

The thermodynamic properties of hair are based on the properties of the keratin strands and amino acids that combine into a ‘coiled’ structure. This structure lends to many of the properties of hair, such as its ability to stretch and return to its original length. It should be noted that this coiled structure does not predispose curly or frizzy hair, both of which are defined by oval or triangular hair follicle cross-sections.

Evolution of less body hair

Hair is a very good thermal conductor and aids heat transfer both into and out of the body. When goose bumps are observed, small muscles (Arrector pili muscle) contract to raise the hairs both to provide insulation, by reducing cooling by air convection of the skin, as well as in response to central nervous stimulus, similar to the feeling of ‘hairs standing up on the back of your neck’. This phenomenon also occurs when static charge is built up and stored in the hair. Keratin however can easily be damaged by excessive heat and dryness, suggesting that extreme sun exposure, perhaps due to a lack of clothing, would result in perpetual hair destruction, eventually resulting in the genes being bred out in favor of high skin pigmentation. It is also true that parasites can live on and in hair thus peoples who preserved their body hair would have required greater general hygiene to prevent diseases.

Markus J. Rantala of the Department of Biological and Environmental Science, University of Jyväskylä, Finland, said humans evolved by “natural selection” to be hairless when the trade off of “having fewer parasites” became more important than having a “warming, furry coat”.

P.E. Wheeler of the Department of Biology at Liverpool Polytechnic said quadrupedal Savannah mammals of similar volume to humans have body hair to keep warm while only larger quadrupedal Savannah mammals lack body hair, because their body volume itself is enough to keep them warm. Therefore, Wheeler said humans who should have body hair based on predictions of body volume alone for Savannah mammals evolved no body hair after evolving bipedalism which he said reduced the amount of body area exposed to the sun by 40%, reducing the solar warming effect on the human body.

Decreased body hair began in humanoids over 2 million years ago and aided persistence hunting (the ability to catch prey in very long distance chases) in the warm savannas where humanoids first evolved. The two main advantages are felt to be bipedal locomotion and greater thermal load dissipation capacity due to better sweating and less hair.

Sexual selection

Cambridge University zoologist Charles Goodhart believed men have long preferred the “hairless trait” in women, ever since the existence of the “hairless trait” occurred in our hairy forebears 70,000–120,000 years ago during the last episode of global warming. Goodhart argued that humans are relatively hairless today compared to our ancestors because women who were sexually selected for their “hairless trait” passed it on to both their male and female offspring.

Markus J. Rantala of the Department of Biological and Environmental Science, University of Jyväskylä, Finland, said the existence of androgen dependent hair on men could be explained by sexual attraction whereby hair on the genitals would trap pheromones and hair on the chin would make the chin appear more massive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_hair#Evolution_of_less_body_hair

Parasites
bipedal motion
mate selection with males choosing females with less hair, with observation extending to this day with males preferring less hair down there

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 15:10:17
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 829455
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

Also notice photo shopping of women and men

Tendencies to brush out underarm hair and clean up skin imperfections, and other details.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/01/2016 16:00:52
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 829488
Subject: re: Goose bumps?

The_observer said:


OCDC said:

mollwollfumble said:
Are there mammals that don’t have them?
Pinnipeds.

mollwollfumble said:

Hairs, feathers and scales are keratinous structures linked by evolution, so why don’t fish have arrector pili muscles, or do they?
By definition, arrector pili are attached to hair follicles.

“Pinnipeds (sea mammals like seals and walruses) and sea otters lack arrector pili, almost certainly reflecting a secondary loss after invasion of the water.

Why they’ve lost them, and we haven’t, is a mystery. Perhaps they’re more deleterious if you’re living in water.”

So it would be fair to say that I am a mammal BECAUSE I have goose bumps?

That the presence of good bumps is what separates us from the reptiles?

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