Yesterday’s science book was “Packing for Mars – The curious science of life in space” by Mary Roach.
Non-fiction, a hands-on review of what it takes to be an astronaut, from an author with an unerring eye for the absurd.

Today’s science book is “A is for Arsenic – The poisons of Agatha Christie” by Kathryn Harkup.
Non-fiction, everything you ever wanted to know about poisons Arsenic, Belladonna, Cyanide, Digitalis, etc.

So if you want to know anything about what to pack for your next trip to Mars, or the best way to poison your wealthy uncle, I’m an expert for the next week.

thallium is my choice

wookiemeister said:

thallium is my choice

Alcohol is proly the way to go, especially if you want to change your mind half way through.

bob(from black rock) said:

wookiemeister said:

thallium is my choice

Alcohol is proly the way to go, especially if you want to change your mind half way through.

Do it once. Do it right. Inland Taipan venom.

Tamb said:

bob(from black rock) said:

wookiemeister said:

thallium is my choice

Alcohol is proly the way to go, especially if you want to change your mind half way through.

Do it once. Do it right. Inland Taipan venom.

Cleopatra would agree, she tried out quite a lot of alternative poisons on her slaves (including arsenic) before settling on snakebite.

Advantages and disadvantages of arsenic. Advantages:
Tasteless
The troxide looks like an ordinary white powder
Very soluble in hot water
Symptoms sometimes indistinguishable from gastro
Easy to purify at home

Disadvantages
Slow
Easy to test for, except when corpse is buried in soil that contains arsenic
Dosage difficult, best is small frequent doses because the organ damage is cumulative
Small frequent doses is easiest to test for

The method of death can be one of three
Dehydration following vomiting and diarrhea
Arsenic substitutes for phosphorus in ATP
Arsenic binds to sulfur causing protein misfolding

DIY arsenic production at home
Add arsenic containing substance eg soil, metal ore, etc to strong acid, the arsenic will dissolve. Slowly add zinc, the hydrogen produce reacts with the arsenic to produce arsene gas. Dry the gas by passing through calcium chloride. Heat to decompose the arsene into almost pure arsenic.

wookiemeister said:

thallium is my choice

Interesting choice, sometimes called the “Poisoner’s poison”. Available as an additive used in making camera lenses. Used in several real life cases.

The definitive feature of thallium poison is hair loss, so the ideal person to poison with thallium would be one undergoing chemotherapy. Other symptoms are extremely varied and therefore difficult to pin down. Also relatively difficult to test for post mortem. In addition, taking the antidote (which happens to be one of the cyanides) can make things worse as it just moves the thallium further down the digestive tract where it is reabsorbed.

Precisely how thallium interacts with the human body is not well known. It acts as a potassium substitute, so affects all processes involving potassium, such as nerve conduction. It also has a weak affinity for -SH so causes misfolding of proteins.

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

thallium is my choice

Interesting choice, sometimes called the “Poisoner’s poison”. Available as an additive used in making camera lenses. Used in several real life cases.

The definitive feature of thallium poison is hair loss, so the ideal person to poison with thallium would be one undergoing chemotherapy. Other symptoms are extremely varied and therefore difficult to pin down. Also relatively difficult to test for post mortem. In addition, taking the antidote (which happens to be one of the cyanides) can make things worse as it just moves the thallium further down the digestive tract where it is reabsorbed.

Precisely how thallium interacts with the human body is not well known. It acts as a potassium substitute, so affects all processes involving potassium, such as nerve conduction. It also has a weak affinity for -SH so causes misfolding of proteins.

Couldn’t you just poison a bald person, good way to kill Captain Picard or Kojak, or even Sinead O’Connor

The Young Poisoner’s Handbook

Graham Young has been obsessed with death and the macabre since childhood. He is highly intelligent, with an aptitude for chemistry; he dreams of poisoning as many people as he can

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Poisoner’s_Handbook

Serial Killer Graham Young The Teacup Poisoner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uk0EfJwRgY

just watching the doco on graham young, only ever seen the film

somehow he was always able to get significant quantities of poisons

apparently 1080 is a poison , tasteless, colourless, you just fall over dead without knowing what hit you

i’ve stopped eating out in my area – food poisoning, being hit with two types of food poisoning from the same meal to me spells a deliberate poisoning i’ve complained to the council but they won;t be able to do much

on new years eve we went down to watch the fireworks eating homemade food, i nibbled a bit and stayed away from the dips from the shop

what you find is some character has removed the cold stuff from the fridge , left them on the shelf and someone comes along and puts it back in the fridge like a time bomb – someone comes along and gets sick.

two of our number were made violently sick that night

i don’t chance buying meat for myself from the “deli”, food contamination in my local woolies, it wouldn’t surprise me if people were getting sick

i only buy food for the dogs from the deli

just finished watching the graham young doco

i think older more switched on people might have twigged he was responsible for poisoning

normally with these sorts of characters i find there is something incongruous – something that doesn’t fit

the moody , “quiet” types are the ones to watch carefully

/* A is for Arsenic */

As if they got it right.

The book “A is for arsenic” also discusses Graham Young. Because of his thorough knowledge of the chemistry of poisons he was able to convince people that he was an expert, and so obtain poisons that way. While in psychiatric care he also made cyanide from laurel leaves.
——————————————————————-
Antidotes

I had no idea how many antidotes are actually deadly poisons in their own right.
From the following list of seven deadly poisons:

Thallium, Atropine, Cyanide, Pilocarpine, Radiation, Cadmium, Sarin
select pairs A, B such that A is used as an antidote of B.

Give up? Here’s what I’ve found out so far.

1. Pilocarpine is used as an antidote of Atropine
2. Atropine is used as an antidote of Pilocarpine
Well, I suppose that makes sense, Both pilocarpine and atropine act on the same neuroreceptors but have opposite effects.

3. Atropine is used as an antidote of Sarin
Sarin is one of the organophosphates. Atropine has also been prescribed as an antidote to the common cold and irritable bowel syndrome, is an ingredient in some cough syrup, and has been prescribed for bedwetting.

4. Cyanide is used as an antidote of Thallium
5. Cyanide is used an an antidote of Radiation poisoning
6. Cadmium is used as an antidote of Cyanide
Cyanide acts by binding to metals, its deadly action comes from binding to the iron in haemoglobin and cytochrome c. Cadmium (deadly in itself) binds more tightly to cyanide than iron does, and so if administered fast enough acts as an antidote to cyanide. The radiation poisoning referred to is from cesium-137, a deadly fission product.

So, of the seven deadly poisons listed, four are also used as antidotes. Can you think of any others?

Arsenic compounds are used in the treatment of heartworm in dogs, and in chemotherapeutic drugs for leukemia and other blood disorders.

Oops, a mistake there, should have said “Cobalt” not “Cadmium”

mollwollfumble said:

I had no idea how many antidotes are actually deadly poisons in their own right.
From the following list of seven deadly poisons:

Thallium, Atropine, Cyanide, Pilocarpine, Radiation, Cobalt, Sarin
select pairs A, B such that A is used as an antidote of B.

… Can you think of any others?

Am reading further. If committing suicide and don’t have any inland taipans handy, consider spotted hemlock. Advantages are:
a) Relatively pleasant death, no vomiting or convulsions, see death of Socrates.
b) Hasn’t been used in a confirmed murder case since 399 BC.
c) No antidote known.
d) Difficult to detect after death

The more I read the more I’m amazed at how many of the different types of poison kill by upsetting the action of neurotransmitter acetylcholine. This must be really finely balanced in the body to be upset so easily. If acetylcholine is reduced by the action of atropine then the result is often a hilarious set of hallucinations (realistic ones not psychadelic ones).

Either by binding to the same synapse site as acetylcholine as an agonist (pilocarpine) or antagonist (atropine = belladonna), or by stopping the acetylcholine breakdown pathway permanently (sarin = organophosphate) or temporarily (eserine = phytostygmine). For example, by poisoning yourself sub-lethally with eserine before being exposed to sarin you can save yourself from the greater danger posed by sarin.

I’m not up to strychnine and curare in the book yet, but lets include them here.
7. Atropine (=belladonna) is an antidote for digoxin (=foxglove)
8. Atropine (=belladonna) is an antidote for eserine
9. Eserine is an antidote for atropine
10. Eserine is an antidote for curare
11. Eserine is a (less effective) antidote for strychnine
12. Hemlock is an antidote for strychnine

That’s two more deadly poisons available for use as antidotes.

mollwollfumble said:

Oops, a mistake there, should have said “Cobalt” not “Cadmium”

mollwollfumble said:

I had no idea how many antidotes are actually deadly poisons in their own right.
From the following list of seven deadly poisons:

Thallium, Atropine, Cyanide, Pilocarpine, Radiation, Cobalt, Sarin
select pairs A, B such that A is used as an antidote of B.

… Can you think of any others?

Am reading further. If committing suicide and don’t have any inland taipans handy, consider spotted hemlock. Advantages are:
a) Relatively pleasant death, no vomiting or convulsions, see death of Socrates.
b) Hasn’t been used in a confirmed murder case since 399 BC.
c) No antidote known.
d) Difficult to detect after death

The more I read the more I’m amazed at how many of the different types of poison kill by upsetting the action of neurotransmitter acetylcholine. This must be really finely balanced in the body to be upset so easily. If acetylcholine is reduced by the action of atropine then the result is often a hilarious set of hallucinations (realistic ones not psychadelic ones).

Either by binding to the same synapse site as acetylcholine as an agonist (pilocarpine) or antagonist (atropine = belladonna), or by stopping the acetylcholine breakdown pathway permanently (sarin = organophosphate) or temporarily (eserine = phytostygmine). For example, by poisoning yourself sub-lethally with eserine before being exposed to sarin you can save yourself from the greater danger posed by sarin.

I’m not up to strychnine and curare in the book yet, but lets include them here.
7. Atropine (=belladonna) is an antidote for digoxin (=foxglove)
8. Atropine (=belladonna) is an antidote for eserine
9. Eserine is an antidote for atropine
10. Eserine is an antidote for curare
11. Eserine is a (less effective) antidote for strychnine
12. Hemlock is an antidote for strychnine

That’s two more deadly poisons available for use as antidotes.

I’m going to have to google it because I’m unsure that hemlock exists in Australia.

Following suggestions on another thread, I went looking for apricots and cassava as sources of cyanide for me to eat. Didn’t see them at the local fruit shop, must be out of season.

mollwollfumble said:

Following suggestions on another thread, I went looking for apricots and cassava as sources of cyanide for me to eat. Didn’t see them at the local fruit shop, must be out of season.

you can try to poison yourself with apricot seeds but i don;t think you’ll have any luck – i’ve already tried it with no luck

Oersipan (from Persicus (peach) and marzipan; also known as Parzipan) is a material used in confectionery. It is similar to marzipan but apricot or peach kernels are used instead of almonds. Persipan consists of 40% ground kernels and 60% sugar. The kernels have a strong bitter flavour caused by the presence of amygdalin, a toxic cyanogenic glycoside which has to be detoxified before the kernels can be used. The cores are normally not used otherwise, making persipan lower-priced than marzipan. It also has a somewhat different taste. Persipan often contains 0.5% starch so that it can be easily differentiated from marzipan with an iodine test.

Persipan is generally used in confectionery in place of marzipan and as an ingredient of pastry and sweet foods, such as Stollen. It is rarely eaten by itself. In recent years, the use of persipan has increased, and the resulting rise in demand has led to shortages of the kernels.

Reading about ricin has made me think about the number of poisons (other than in food and medicine) that I’ve eaten at times, and how that’s led me to some great alternative foods.

I have eaten, with no noticeable effect, relatively small amounts of
Castor oil bean – ricin
Lead
Oleander sap – cardiac glycoside
Water chestnut – saponins
Beefsteak fungus – luciferase
Apricot kernel – cyanide
Apple pips (very many) – cyanide
Pine needles and pine gum
Eucalyptus leaves and gum

On the other hand,my forays into food have netted me a large number of great foods that nobody ever eats. Including

Puffball fungus
Tree strawberry
Lantana berry
Wattle seeds
Wattle gum
Feral fennel
Buffalo and Kikuyu stalks, couch is good too
The grass seeds that look like an old-fashioned beehive

I’d be happy to eat those again any time any where, preferably not straight after they’ve been sprayed by herbicide.

I used to drink quite a bit of sulfuric acid. It’s delicious, but if you plan to try it start out with very dilute and work up to it. Also, use pure H₂SO₄, not battery acid.

mollwollfumble said:

Reading about ricin has made me think about the number of poisons (other than in food and medicine) that I’ve eaten at times, and how that’s led me to some great alternative foods.

I have eaten, with no noticeable effect, relatively small amounts of
Castor oil bean – ricin
Lead
Oleander sap – cardiac glycoside
Water chestnut – saponins
Beefsteak fungus – luciferase
Apricot kernel – cyanide
Apple pips (very many) – cyanide
Pine needles and pine gum
Eucalyptus leaves and gum

On the other hand,my forays into food have netted me a large number of great foods that nobody ever eats. Including

Puffball fungus
Tree strawberry
Lantana berry
Wattle seeds
Wattle gum
Feral fennel
Buffalo and Kikuyu stalks, couch is good too
The grass seeds that look like an old-fashioned beehive

I’d be happy to eat those again any time any where, preferably not straight after they’ve been sprayed by herbicide.

I hear paraquat works wonders for sleep.