Animals’ nurturing of young, even ants, impresses me.
Seems a complex task, even the humble domestic cat or canine.

Humans are unusual in the extent of what they do and can nurture. Hobbies, professions, machines, whatever.

Take a dog with a bunch of pups. Mum has to keep them warm, fed, keep them from and ward off potential hostiles. Keep track of them, in case any might wander off. Has to be receptive to their hunger, secure food for self, and them.

This to me indicates sets of awareness.

How much of a step is it to take such awareesses and get self-awareness.

What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

mollwollfumble said:

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

Cuckoo ducks wouldn’t survive as the host birds would be dead.

Wouldn’t be too much of a stretch that mum cat or mum dog has a fondness for her little ones.
The replicator, her DNA, her potential little replicators
What is fondness.

It’d be too much to attribute the same mental states as maybe a human experiences, but observation suggests certainly some similarities of experience.

Desires/attractors, inclining nurture.

Mum cat probably experiences something that is like my little ones. Ownership of a sort.

Maternal desires in a female human before having a baby might be said want my little ones.

Not knowing where a child is and wanting to know might be said where is my little one.

I have a hunch that something more can be added to these sorts of things to get self-awareness.

mollwollfumble said:

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

I think that would be a minor consideration for survival in such a calamitous event. A safe environment with a food source (whatever that might be) and the ability to adapt would rate much higher. Mostly it can be summed up in one word – luck!

transition said:

Animals’ nurturing of young, even ants, impresses me.
Seems a complex task, even the humble domestic cat or canine.

Humans are unusual in the extent of what they do and can nurture. Hobbies, professions, machines, whatever.

Take a dog with a bunch of pups. Mum has to keep them warm, fed, keep them from and ward off potential hostiles. Keep track of them, in case any might wander off. Has to be receptive to their hunger, secure food for self, and them.

This to me indicates sets of awareness.

How much of a step is it to take such awareesses and get self-awareness.

What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Yes, some good points there. I would think social animals would be more aware of others and in turn themselves. There again, solitary animals would need to be more aware in order to survive, as they would have no social assistance. An interesting conundrum of which other factors must likely need be taken into account to determine a level of awareness. Perhaps awareness is a result of its advantage to the animal, regardless of species.

mollwollfumble said:

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

self awareness can be extended to the whole species itself having awareness, which would be taking self awareness to the next level

if say there was a flood and birds took advantage of that flood to create more offspring during wet seasons, but when a drought happens the species dies off

if say a species was self aware then the species would not over react to a drought and quality of life would be maintained

when the species has no self awareness quality of life can be diminished

the human race has very little self awareness, this is shown by the resistance to excepting climate change

but climate change also has business skeptics thus taking it even longer to accept change

and how can millions of business around the whole become self aware of damage to humanity?

how can Billions of greedy humans become “human being species aware” and change their behavior en mass to save themselves and future generations

but a lot of people and businesses don’t care for future generations

that attitude itself damages and diminishes future human quality of life

yes, it would be good for all humans to have global/spatial, history/time awareness of what we are doing to ourselves on the planet

10,000 year extinction predications should be taken more seriously like the doomsday clock

CrazyNeutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

self awareness can be extended to the whole species itself having awareness, which would be taking self awareness to the next level

if say there was a flood and birds took advantage of that flood to create more offspring during wet seasons, but when a drought happens the species dies off

if say a species was self aware then the species would not over react to a drought and quality of life would be maintained

when the species has no self awareness quality of life can be diminished

the human race has very little self awareness, this is shown by the resistance to excepting climate change

but climate change also has business skeptics thus taking it even longer to accept change

and how can millions of business around the whole become self aware of damage to humanity?

how can Billions of greedy humans become “human being species aware” and change their behavior en mass to save themselves and future generations

but a lot of people and businesses don’t care for future generations

that attitude itself damages and diminishes future human quality of life

yes, it would be good for all humans to have global/spatial, history/time awareness of what we are doing to ourselves on the planet

10,000 year extinction predications should be taken more seriously like the doomsday clock

Intelligence and education you would think more than capable of understanding the perils of global warming. However, greed and self-interest will usually circumvent logic.

CrazyNeutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

self awareness can be extended to the whole species itself having awareness, which would be taking self awareness to the next level

if say there was a flood and birds took advantage of that flood to create more offspring during wet seasons, but when a drought happens the species dies off

if say a species was self aware then the species would not over react to a drought and quality of life would be maintained

when the species has no self awareness quality of life can be diminished

the human race has very little self awareness, this is shown by the resistance to excepting climate change

but climate change also has business skeptics thus taking it even longer to accept change

and how can millions of business around the whole become self aware of damage to humanity?

how can Billions of greedy humans become “human being species aware” and change their behavior en mass to save themselves and future generations

but a lot of people and businesses don’t care for future generations

that attitude itself damages and diminishes future human quality of life

yes, it would be good for all humans to have global/spatial, history/time awareness of what we are doing to ourselves on the planet

10,000 year extinction predications should be taken more seriously like the doomsday clock

and to reflect on that a bit more

looking around different countries, there are quality of life issues almost everywhere

for examples China’s and India’s air quality, killing millions, water quality in various countries.

PermeateFree said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

> What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Slightly off topic, but first thing I would do is stop mass extinctions. Young that can’t survive without a parent’s nurturing aren’t going to survive a mass extinction that kills such adults off. The lack of a need for parental care is one reason why creatures such as plants, cockroaches, most fish, amphibians, cuckoo-ducks and other critters that don’t need parental care could survive mass extinction events where most mammal species would perish.

self awareness can be extended to the whole species itself having awareness, which would be taking self awareness to the next level

if say there was a flood and birds took advantage of that flood to create more offspring during wet seasons, but when a drought happens the species dies off

if say a species was self aware then the species would not over react to a drought and quality of life would be maintained

when the species has no self awareness quality of life can be diminished

the human race has very little self awareness, this is shown by the resistance to excepting climate change

but climate change also has business skeptics thus taking it even longer to accept change

and how can millions of business around the whole become self aware of damage to humanity?

how can Billions of greedy humans become “human being species aware” and change their behavior en mass to save themselves and future generations

but a lot of people and businesses don’t care for future generations

that attitude itself damages and diminishes future human quality of life

yes, it would be good for all humans to have global/spatial, history/time awareness of what we are doing to ourselves on the planet

10,000 year extinction predications should be taken more seriously like the doomsday clock

Intelligence and education you would think more than capable of understanding the perils of global warming. However, greed and self-interest will usually circumvent logic.

Vote for Clive Palmer is not the answer Humanity needs

People need some CEO GREED awareness, Rorting the system Awareness, Legal rights rorting awareness, human rights credibility, and environmental credibility to enter parliament, focus on small families, small cars, small homes, improving existing hardware but a reasoned move to bring in renewable energy supplies

we need to go back to free education once or twice, but user pays if keep changing work fields

CrazyNeutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

self awareness can be extended to the whole species itself having awareness, which would be taking self awareness to the next level

if say there was a flood and birds took advantage of that flood to create more offspring during wet seasons, but when a drought happens the species dies off

if say a species was self aware then the species would not over react to a drought and quality of life would be maintained

when the species has no self awareness quality of life can be diminished

the human race has very little self awareness, this is shown by the resistance to excepting climate change

but climate change also has business skeptics thus taking it even longer to accept change

and how can millions of business around the whole become self aware of damage to humanity?

how can Billions of greedy humans become “human being species aware” and change their behavior en mass to save themselves and future generations

but a lot of people and businesses don’t care for future generations

that attitude itself damages and diminishes future human quality of life

yes, it would be good for all humans to have global/spatial, history/time awareness of what we are doing to ourselves on the planet

10,000 year extinction predications should be taken more seriously like the doomsday clock

Intelligence and education you would think more than capable of understanding the perils of global warming. However, greed and self-interest will usually circumvent logic.

Vote for Clive Palmer is not the answer Humanity needs

People need some CEO GREED awareness, Rorting the system Awareness, Legal rights rorting awareness, human rights credibility, and environmental credibility to enter parliament, focus on small families, small cars, small homes, improving existing hardware but a reasoned move to bring in renewable energy supplies

we need to go back to free education once or twice, but user pays if keep changing work fields

If I read you correctly, you are saying the world is totally fucked.

PermeateFree said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Intelligence and education you would think more than capable of understanding the perils of global warming. However, greed and self-interest will usually circumvent logic.

Vote for Clive Palmer is not the answer Humanity needs

People need some CEO GREED awareness, Rorting the system Awareness, Legal rights rorting awareness, human rights credibility, and environmental credibility to enter parliament, focus on small families, small cars, small homes, improving existing hardware but a reasoned move to bring in renewable energy supplies

we need to go back to free education once or twice, but user pays if keep changing work fields

If I read you correctly, you are saying the world is totally fucked.

Holistically globally and through time, it certainly looks that way.

We don’t hear a lot of chat about holistic global spatial awareness, Humans mining all over the world, Humans causing deforestation all over the world, humans farming all over the world, in the present and back through time thousands of years.

All that presents an environment cost, to us.

>..social animals would be more aware of others and in turn themselves.

yeah, bear in mind humans strategically limit their sociability/social exchanges also, which in some ways might seem a contradiction, it certainly involves things somewhat paradoxical.

being a social creature and the work of constraining that also involves self-awareness.

anyway, more thoughts later about the nurturescape

PermeateFree said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Intelligence and education you would think more than capable of understanding the perils of global warming. However, greed and self-interest will usually circumvent logic.

Vote for Clive Palmer is not the answer Humanity needs

People need some CEO GREED awareness, Rorting the system Awareness, Legal rights rorting awareness, human rights credibility, and environmental credibility to enter parliament, focus on small families, small cars, small homes, improving existing hardware but a reasoned move to bring in renewable energy supplies

we need to go back to free education once or twice, but user pays if keep changing work fields

If I read you correctly, you are saying the world is totally fucked.

We need to keep people like Clive Palmer out of politics

otherwise we will end up like Americas political system

“Situation Normal, All Fucked Up”

CrazyNeutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Vote for Clive Palmer is not the answer Humanity needs

People need some CEO GREED awareness, Rorting the system Awareness, Legal rights rorting awareness, human rights credibility, and environmental credibility to enter parliament, focus on small families, small cars, small homes, improving existing hardware but a reasoned move to bring in renewable energy supplies

we need to go back to free education once or twice, but user pays if keep changing work fields

If I read you correctly, you are saying the world is totally fucked.

Holistically globally and through time, it certainly looks that way.

We don’t hear a lot of chat about holistic global spatial awareness, Humans mining all over the world, Humans causing deforestation all over the world, humans farming all over the world, in the present and back through time thousands of years.

All that presents an environment cost, to us.

I sympathise with your general attitude, but I think the cost to the environment, is the environment, plus all that try to live within it. The only species who seems to think it irrelevant is ourselves.

transition said:

>..social animals would be more aware of others and in turn themselves.

yeah, bear in mind humans strategically limit their sociability/social exchanges also, which in some ways might seem a contradiction, it certainly involves things somewhat paradoxical.

being a social creature and the work of constraining that also involves self-awareness.

anyway, more thoughts later about the nurturescape

I think you need to quote my entire sentence, as you take me out of context.

when you think about it

a species needs to perceive its environment

this is how perception traits would self develop into self awareness

self awareness = perception, one or more ways to perceive the environment

CrazyNeutrino said:

when you think about it

a species needs to perceive its environment

this is how perception traits would self develop into self awareness

self awareness = perception, one or more ways to perceive the environment

Good point.

>the environment

environment maybe shouldn’t be used to mean that external, exclusively (or the default). Seems a bit disturbing when it is.

transition said:

Animals’ nurturing of young, even ants, impresses me.
Seems a complex task, even the humble domestic cat or canine.

Humans are unusual in the extent of what they do and can nurture. Hobbies, professions, machines, whatever.

Take a dog with a bunch of pups. Mum has to keep them warm, fed, keep them from and ward off potential hostiles. Keep track of them, in case any might wander off. Has to be receptive to their hunger, secure food for self, and them.

This to me indicates sets of awareness.

How much of a step is it to take such awareesses and get self-awareness.

What would you reconfigure or additionally configure to perform that trick.

Life requires energy, perception awareness requires energy, more energy to self replicate, and more energy again to sustain greater numbers

transition said:

>the environment

environment maybe shouldn’t be used to mean that external, exclusively (or the default). Seems a bit disturbing when it is.

Not sure what you mean, but the environment is where we live, without it we would really be in trouble.

transition said:

>the environment

environment maybe shouldn’t be used to mean that external, exclusively (or the default). Seems a bit disturbing when it is.

Living objects exist and move around in space time

It would be disturbing if there was no external environment

no space to move around in?

What is interesting is how many species have developed multi sensory perception capability,

and the ranges those sensors have,

and for the ability to store those perceptions as memories

CrazyNeutrino said:

What is interesting is how many species have developed multi sensory perception capability,

and the ranges those sensors have,

and for the ability to store those perceptions as memories

my guess is that those species that tend not to store information stay un developed.

and those that store information go on to develop further

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

What is interesting is how many species have developed multi sensory perception capability,

and the ranges those sensors have,

and for the ability to store those perceptions as memories

my guess is that those species that tend not to store information stay un developed.

and those that store information go on to develop further

I don’t think creatures are developed or undeveloped. If they are alive and doing well, then they are well developed to their environment. If they are not and cannot adapt, they simply die out.

PermeateFree said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

What is interesting is how many species have developed multi sensory perception capability,

and the ranges those sensors have,

and for the ability to store those perceptions as memories

my guess is that those species that tend not to store information stay un developed.

and those that store information go on to develop further

I don’t think creatures are developed or undeveloped. If they are alive and doing well, then they are well developed to their environment. If they are not and cannot adapt, they simply die out.

yes, I could have chosen better words, I believe in evolution, there would be many instances of the environment changing rapidity or more slowly, a successful species, an unsuccessful species, those that fall between somewhere, maybe like a local volcano eruption that could wipe out some local species, or damage numbers etc, deforestation by humans.

>Not sure what you mean, but the environment is where we live, without it we would really be in trouble

I try to keep within me skin, and within me cranial cavity.

then there’s the experience of that, courtesy me brain’n blood pumping around, metabolism, homeostasis, whatever

transition said:

>Not sure what you mean, but the environment is where we live, without it we would really be in trouble

I try to keep within me skin, and within me cranial cavity.

then there’s the experience of that, courtesy me brain’n blood pumping around, metabolism, homeostasis, whatever

air pressure and density and a bit of gravity

>air pressure and density and a bit of gravity

you mean that internal environment, envelope of gas and all around the earth.

Thinking about the homunculus idea earlier, wondering if you replaced the little man inside the little man and so on with instead memory of sorts, the product of changes to self through life experience (development).

Lot of what’s done while growing up, maturing I suppose, the details fade, but it has like a trajectory. Some aspects of youthfulness a person likes to preserve.

transition said:

Thinking about the homunculus idea earlier, wondering if you replaced the little man inside the little man and so on with instead memory of sorts, the product of changes to self through life experience (development).

Lot of what’s done while growing up, maturing I suppose, the details fade, but it has like a trajectory. Some aspects of youthfulness a person likes to preserve.

one should keep in min that teen sexual imagination goes with teen perception of sexuality

Human hormones, chemicals create 3D mirror scenes of sexual activity in the brains of teenagers going through puberty and into early adult life

if one could identify those chemicals involved and apply them to older people to stimulate their imaginations

Do people go through peak imagination with sexual development?

look at all artists who grow up then compose music/ paint, then the behavior wears away as they get older?

but not everybody, some will continue to practice art and music.

CrazyNeutrino said:

transition said:

Thinking about the homunculus idea earlier, wondering if you replaced the little man inside the little man and so on with instead memory of sorts, the product of changes to self through life experience (development).

Lot of what’s done while growing up, maturing I suppose, the details fade, but it has like a trajectory. Some aspects of youthfulness a person likes to preserve.

one should keep in min that teen sexual imagination goes with teen perception of sexuality

Human hormones, chemicals create 3D mirror scenes of sexual activity in the brains of teenagers going through puberty and into early adult life

if one could identify those chemicals involved and apply them to older people to stimulate their imaginations

Do people go through peak imagination with sexual development?

look at all artists who grow up then compose music/ paint, then the behavior wears away as they get older?

but not everybody, some will continue to practice art and music.

there seems to be a deep connection between sexuality and imagination

CrazyNeutrino said:

transition said:

Thinking about the homunculus idea earlier, wondering if you replaced the little man inside the little man and so on with instead memory of sorts, the product of changes to self through life experience (development).

Lot of what’s done while growing up, maturing I suppose, the details fade, but it has like a trajectory. Some aspects of youthfulness a person likes to preserve.

!https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Infinite_regress_of_homunculus.png/300px-Infinite_regress_of_homunculus.png

one should keep in min that teen sexual imagination goes with teen perception of sexuality

Human hormones, chemicals create 3D mirror scenes of sexual activity in the brains of teenagers going through puberty and into early adult life

if one could identify those chemicals involved and apply them to older people to stimulate their imaginations

Do people go through peak imagination with sexual development?

look at all artists who grow up then compose music/ paint, then the behavior wears away as they get older?

but not everybody, some will continue to practice art and music.

I’d hate to be a teenager again.

>if one could identify

‘em breedin’ related activities yeah, a life force, without which you might go extinct

anyways, what’s ya humunculus doin’.

Somewhat different topic but I find it interesting that mammals (non human) and other animals will rear the young of a different species and even form what appears to be friendships, sometimes between predator and prey. If we could prove that another species on the planet was self aware would we still kill or eat it

Cymek said:

Somewhat different topic but I find it interesting that mammals (non human) and other animals will rear the young of a different species and even form what appears to be friendships, sometimes between predator and prey. If we could prove that another species on the planet was self aware would we still kill or eat it

Yes, people eat people after all.

>If we could prove that another species on the planet was self aware would we still kill or eat it

the idea spun around some, how does the expression of human self-awareness appear to (potential) predators of humans (exluding our own species for the moment).