A 21,031-square-metre vertical farm will open in Newark, New Jersey later this year, and is expected to grow close to a million kilograms of pesticide-free produce annually. Made out of an old steel factory, the farm will not only be 75 times more productive than a farm of a similar size spread across a flat, open field, but it requires far less to run.

Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions, the facility requires zero soil, 95 percent less water than traditional farms, and because it’s pesticide-free, doesn’t cause any harmful run-off to the environment surrounding it.

more

Postpocelipse said:

A 21,031-square-metre vertical farm will open in Newark, New Jersey later this year, and is expected to grow close to a million kilograms of pesticide-free produce annually. Made out of an old steel factory, the farm will not only be 75 times more productive than a farm of a similar size spread across a flat, open field, but it requires far less to run.

Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions, the facility requires zero soil, 95 percent less water than traditional farms, and because it’s pesticide-free, doesn’t cause any harmful run-off to the environment surrounding it.

more

Typical upper end production for grain crops is about 10t/Ha, so 500t/Ha (which is 1 miilon kg/20,000 m2) is pretty good, if they can actually achieve that.

I wonder what it is about growing on a vertical surface that allows such a great increase in productivity, compared with horizontal.

I suspect it’s a liberal supply of bull-shit that does the trick, but I could be wrong.

I don’t think you’re wrong.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Postpocelipse said:

A 21,031-square-metre vertical farm will open in Newark, New Jersey later this year, and is expected to grow close to a million kilograms of pesticide-free produce annually. Made out of an old steel factory, the farm will not only be 75 times more productive than a farm of a similar size spread across a flat, open field, but it requires far less to run.

Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions, the facility requires zero soil, 95 percent less water than traditional farms, and because it’s pesticide-free, doesn’t cause any harmful run-off to the environment surrounding it.

more

Typical upper end production for grain crops is about 10t/Ha, so 500t/Ha (which is 1 miilon kg/20,000 m2) is pretty good, if they can actually achieve that.

I wonder what it is about growing on a vertical surface that allows such a great increase in productivity, compared with horizontal.

I suspect it’s a liberal supply of bull-shit that does the trick, but I could be wrong.

fraction of the costs to take product the market

pesticide free – no costs buying pesticide and applying it

presumably little to no herbicide needed and no weed killer needed either

Hmm, they give no indication of what the “crops” will actually be.

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, they give no indication of what the “crops” will actually be.

things like lettuce and similar products I’d say , fast growth , high turn over

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, they give no indication of what the “crops” will actually be.

things like lettuce and similar products I’d say , fast growth , high turn over

turnover eh?…

wouldn’t that be apples?

mushrooms would be another , no light required

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, they give no indication of what the “crops” will actually be.

things like lettuce and similar products I’d say , fast growth , high turn over

It’s a very important question because the actual nutritional yield obviously depends on what the crop is. It’s hard to imagine very high nutritional crops like cereals being grown in this way.

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, they give no indication of what the “crops” will actually be.

things like lettuce and similar products I’d say , fast growth , high turn over

turnover eh?…

wouldn’t that be apples?

stumpy_seahorse said:

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

Hmm, they give no indication of what the “crops” will actually be.

things like lettuce and similar products I’d say , fast growth , high turn over

turnover eh?…

wouldn’t that be apples?

I’ve always thought of apple turnovers as being horizontal.

wookiemeister said:

mushrooms would be another , no light required

They make a big point of the efficiency of the lighting, so presumably not.

They growing these things under artificial light, presumably using solar power.

So they are turning sunlight into electricity, with huge losses, then transmitting that electricity with more losses, then converting that electricity back into light, with further huge losses.

And they claim this process is efficient.

>>Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions, the facility requires zero soil, 95 percent less water than traditional farms, and because it’s pesticide-free, doesn’t cause any harmful run-off to the environment surrounding it.<<

The excess nutrients in the runoff is what is commonly harmful to the environment. Maybe they reuse it, or funnel it into growing something that can utilise it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

mushrooms would be another , no light required

They make a big point of the efficiency of the lighting, so presumably not.

They growing these things under artificial light, presumably using solar power.

So they are turning sunlight into electricity, with huge losses, then transmitting that electricity with more losses, then converting that electricity back into light, with further huge losses.

And they claim this process is efficient.

With a couple of countries now producing 100% renewable energy I don’t think they are concerned about power consumption but H2O and chemicals.

95% is kinda significant a water saving.

Expect things like broccoli to do well here.

Postpocelipse said:

95% is kinda significant a water saving.

Unless it’s a pure bull-shit saving like the supposed efficiency of energy use.

Postpocelipse said:

With a couple of countries now producing 100% renewable energy I don’t think they are concerned about power consumption but H2O and chemicals.

Even if this is true, which I very much doubt, the USA certainly isn’t one of them, so efficiency of energy use is certainly an issue.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Postpocelipse said:

With a couple of countries now producing 100% renewable energy I don’t think they are concerned about power consumption but H2O and chemicals.

Even if this is true, which I very much doubt, the USA certainly isn’t one of them, so efficiency of energy use is certainly an issue.

There are a lot of crops that are both water hungry and pesticide heavy to produce. This addresses those well and I haven’t looked up the energy usage factors so cannot comment further at this point.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Postpocelipse said:

95% is kinda significant a water saving.

Unless it’s a pure bull-shit saving like the supposed efficiency of energy use.

How a Japanese Vertical Farm is Growing Strawberries using LED for the First Time

The first ROBOFARM to open in Japan: Entirely autonomous factory will produce 30,000 heads of lettuce a day and increase to half a million within five years

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

mushrooms would be another , no light required

They make a big point of the efficiency of the lighting, so presumably not.

They growing these things under artificial light, presumably using solar power.

So they are turning sunlight into electricity, with huge losses, then transmitting that electricity with more losses, then converting that electricity back into light, with further huge losses.

And they claim this process is efficient.

my reasoningon that score is this

unlike crops grown in a field , there is no day and night , the plants are exposed to light of the right frequency 24/7 and hence grow all the time , any losses from transforming energy into another would be more than made up for by the fact you are growing crops at least twice as fast meaning you make more money in a shorter time

the frequency of the light is important I think , it’s normally got a purple tinge to it so I’d expect they are also pumping the best frequency for growth as well

so not not only are you using zero pesticides and I’d also say herbicides but you are growing more In a smaller space twice as fast and a stones throw from the market ie the customer simply walks in and buys the product instead of millions of litres of diesel being used to ship food around the place

sounds much more profitable to me

It’s all very nice but if you do the energy/yield maths, you can’t feed humanity like this.

dv said:

It’s all very nice but if you do the energy/yield maths, you can’t feed humanity like this.

solar panels provide power en situ – you aren’t using any power subject to price rises , you aren’t losing power by requiring it to be transported vast distances nor burning fossil fuels to grow fuel. farmers only exist because diesel is made cheap for them
by the government

the customer is on hand – little to no fossil fuel required to shift product to market

food is grown twice as fast hence twice the profit in half the time

wookiemeister said:

solar panels provide power en situ

Again, the maths for that doesn’t work. The solar panels to power this thing would have to be 20 to 50 times the area.

wookiemeister said:

the frequency of the light is important I think , it’s normally got a purple tinge to it so I’d expect they are also pumping the best frequency for growth as well

It is a grow lux. Balanced for plant growth.

dv said:

It’s all very nice but if you do the energy/yield maths, you can’t feed humanity like this.

too true. It is a pipe dream.

Postpocelipse said:

Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions,

What a load of tommyrot.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions,

What a load of tommyrot.

Aye.

I’ll concede that it ameliorates one environmental problem (pesticide runoff) but in most ways it is environmentally worse.

dv said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Built by AeroFarms, which is a US-based company intent on creating more environmentally friendly farming solutions,

What a load of tommyrot.

Aye.

I’ll concede that it ameliorates one environmental problem (pesticide runoff) but in most ways it is environmentally worse.

How so? The lighting uses LED.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

roughbarked said:

What a load of tommyrot.

Aye.

I’ll concede that it ameliorates one environmental problem (pesticide runoff) but in most ways it is environmentally worse.

How so? The lighting uses LED.

Whereas normal agriculture does not require electrical illumination.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

roughbarked said:

What a load of tommyrot.

Aye.

I’ll concede that it ameliorates one environmental problem (pesticide runoff) but in most ways it is environmentally worse.

How so? The lighting uses LED.

They have to. The losses are too great for them to run anything else.

I wonder what the point is. We throw away huge amounts of food now that we have plenty. How about working out ways for the have nots to get some of the excess?

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Aye.

I’ll concede that it ameliorates one environmental problem (pesticide runoff) but in most ways it is environmentally worse.

How so? The lighting uses LED.

Whereas normal agriculture does not require electrical illumination.

So how many heads of lettuce a day does the standard technique produce? For salad crops this is ideal I think.

roughbarked said:

I wonder what the point is. We throw away huge amounts of food now that we have plenty. How about working out ways for the have nots to get some of the excess?

High water crops don’t keep too well generally.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

I wonder what the point is. We throw away huge amounts of food now that we have plenty. How about working out ways for the have nots to get some of the excess?

High water crops don’t keep too well generally.

All too true. However, those who have no water can benefit from the technology that has been developed to resolve such issues.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

I wonder what the point is. We throw away huge amounts of food now that we have plenty. How about working out ways for the have nots to get some of the excess?

High water crops don’t keep too well generally.

All too true. However, those who have no water can benefit from the technology that has been developed to resolve such issues.

I don’t expect there will be one generic solution to these issues.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

How so? The lighting uses LED.

Whereas normal agriculture does not require electrical illumination.

So how many heads of lettuce a day does the standard technique produce? For salad crops this is ideal I think.

The standard technique produces almost all lettuce, about 25 million tonnes per year.

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Whereas normal agriculture does not require electrical illumination.

So how many heads of lettuce a day does the standard technique produce? For salad crops this is ideal I think.

The standard technique produces almost all lettuce, about 25 million tonnes per year.

I have wondered why cucumber, broccoli etc. isn’t part of the program.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

So how many heads of lettuce a day does the standard technique produce? For salad crops this is ideal I think.

The standard technique produces almost all lettuce, about 25 million tonnes per year.

I have wondered why cucumber, broccoli etc. isn’t part of the program.

And why this hasn’t been applied on micro-scale for restaurants and people who enjoy regular fresh salads.

I mean as an experiment, I don’t want to knock it. It iss interesting. These designs tell us that, in some putative future in which electrical power is hyperabundant (from fusion energy or whatever) we could feed a trillion people on earth without clearing any more land.

dv said:

I mean as an experiment, I don’t want to knock it. It iss interesting. These designs tell us that, in some putative future in which electrical power is hyperabundant (from fusion energy or whatever) we could feed a trillion people on earth without clearing any more land.

I would be interested to see the reasons they have chosen to limit the crops produced.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

So how many heads of lettuce a day does the standard technique produce? For salad crops this is ideal I think.

The standard technique produces almost all lettuce, about 25 million tonnes per year.

I have wondered why cucumber, broccoli etc. isn’t part of the program.

Yeah, you’d think that Macdonals would want a gherkin farm somewhere other than just outside my backdoor.

Postpocelipse said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

The standard technique produces almost all lettuce, about 25 million tonnes per year.

I have wondered why cucumber, broccoli etc. isn’t part of the program.

And why this hasn’t been applied on micro-scale for restaurants and people who enjoy regular fresh salads.

You want fresh salad? Come and stay with me for a while. I could keep all the restaurants in my city with fresh parsley sage rosemary and thyme every day. Food miles? a 12 km drive.

dv said:

I mean as an experiment, I don’t want to knock it. It iss interesting. These designs tell us that, in some putative future in which electrical power is hyperabundant (from fusion energy or whatever) we could feed a trillion people on earth without clearing any more land.

True enough for that particular pipe dream.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

The standard technique produces almost all lettuce, about 25 million tonnes per year.

I have wondered why cucumber, broccoli etc. isn’t part of the program.

Yeah, you’d think that Macdonals would want a gherkin farm somewhere other than just outside my backdoor.

Well….. exactly.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

I mean as an experiment, I don’t want to knock it. It iss interesting. These designs tell us that, in some putative future in which electrical power is hyperabundant (from fusion energy or whatever) we could feed a trillion people on earth without clearing any more land.

I would be interested to see the reasons they have chosen to limit the crops produced.

Because the others don’t work?

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Postpocelipse said:

I have wondered why cucumber, broccoli etc. isn’t part of the program.

And why this hasn’t been applied on micro-scale for restaurants and people who enjoy regular fresh salads.

You want fresh salad? Come and stay with me for a while. I could keep all the restaurants in my city with fresh parsley sage rosemary and thyme every day. Food miles? a 12 km drive.

I’m a parsley fan but also favour basil as a salad base. I’d like to build my own pink-light room ultimately.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

I mean as an experiment, I don’t want to knock it. It iss interesting. These designs tell us that, in some putative future in which electrical power is hyperabundant (from fusion energy or whatever) we could feed a trillion people on earth without clearing any more land.

I would be interested to see the reasons they have chosen to limit the crops produced.

Because the others don’t work?

I think it is far more to do with the automation/robotic element than any natural limits.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

And why this hasn’t been applied on micro-scale for restaurants and people who enjoy regular fresh salads.

You want fresh salad? Come and stay with me for a while. I could keep all the restaurants in my city with fresh parsley sage rosemary and thyme every day. Food miles? a 12 km drive.

I’m a parsley fan but also favour basil as a salad base. I’d like to build my own pink-light room ultimately.

I have homegrown basil pesto coming out my ears. Plus enough lawnmower fuel to keep curve happy for the rest of his life.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

I would be interested to see the reasons they have chosen to limit the crops produced.

Because the others don’t work?

I think it is far more to do with the automation/robotic element than any natural limits.

Since when do plants not enjoy it when you eliminate their competition expenditure?

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

I would be interested to see the reasons they have chosen to limit the crops produced.

Because the others don’t work?

I think it is far more to do with the automation/robotic element than any natural limits.

yep. they don’t work.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

You want fresh salad? Come and stay with me for a while. I could keep all the restaurants in my city with fresh parsley sage rosemary and thyme every day. Food miles? a 12 km drive.

I’m a parsley fan but also favour basil as a salad base. I’d like to build my own pink-light room ultimately.

I have homegrown basil pesto coming out my ears. Plus enough lawnmower fuel to keep curve happy for the rest of his life.

Does storing it in your body produce 2-stroke?

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Because the others don’t work?

I think it is far more to do with the automation/robotic element than any natural limits.

yep. they don’t work.

Private producers won’t need automation. The potential for the system is greater than is being explored currently.

Postpocelipse said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Because the others don’t work?

I think it is far more to do with the automation/robotic element than any natural limits.

Since when do plants not enjoy it when you eliminate their competition expenditure?

since you give them nothing to live for.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

I’m a parsley fan but also favour basil as a salad base. I’d like to build my own pink-light room ultimately.

I have homegrown basil pesto coming out my ears. Plus enough lawnmower fuel to keep curve happy for the rest of his life.

Does storing it in your body produce 2-stroke?

I normally get more than two strokes in.

Postpocelipse said:

Private producers won’t need automation.

Something inherently wrong here.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Postpocelipse said:

I think it is far more to do with the automation/robotic element than any natural limits.

Since when do plants not enjoy it when you eliminate their competition expenditure?

since you give them nothing to live for.

Competition is the purpose of life?

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Since when do plants not enjoy it when you eliminate their competition expenditure?

since you give them nothing to live for.

Competition is the purpose of life?

IN the world of plants too? Yes. ‘Fraid so.

What do you want to do, create a whole new set of herbaceous juvenile delinquents, homophobic terrorists and the like?

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

since you give them nothing to live for.

Competition is the purpose of life?

IN the world of plants too? Yes. ‘Fraid so.

What do you want to do, create a whole new set of herbaceous juvenile delinquents, homophobic terrorists and the like?

More anthropocentric reasoning I think. Perhaps we need a mutant vegetable group to run things for a while?

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Competition is the purpose of life?

IN the world of plants too? Yes. ‘Fraid so.

What do you want to do, create a whole new set of herbaceous juvenile delinquents, homophobic terrorists and the like?

More anthropocentric reasoning I think. Perhaps we need a mutant vegetable group to run things for a while?

We’ve already had the Triffids thanks.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

IN the world of plants too? Yes. ‘Fraid so.

What do you want to do, create a whole new set of herbaceous juvenile delinquents, homophobic terrorists and the like?

More anthropocentric reasoning I think. Perhaps we need a mutant vegetable group to run things for a while?

We’ve already had the Triffids thanks.

Non-Ent and more biologically animal. Like the Orc to the flora-world’s Ent. You need to brush up on your Warcraft.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

More anthropocentric reasoning I think. Perhaps we need a mutant vegetable group to run things for a while?

We’ve already had the Triffids thanks.

Non-Ent and more biologically animal. Like the Orc to the flora-world’s Ent. You need to brush up on your Warcraft.

I was over warcraft @ 14. I’m 17 now.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

We’ve already had the Triffids thanks.

Non-Ent and more biologically animal. Like the Orc to the flora-world’s Ent. You need to brush up on your Warcraft.

I was over warcraft @ 14. I’m 17 now.

Not a class distinguishing scientist?

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Non-Ent and more biologically animal. Like the Orc to the flora-world’s Ent. You need to brush up on your Warcraft.

I was over warcraft @ 14. I’m 17 now.

Not a class distinguishing scientist?

dunno what you mean.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

I was over warcraft @ 14. I’m 17 now.

Not a class distinguishing scientist?

dunno what you mean.

Acceptable……….

They showed an example of a vertical farm on a documentary I watched last night “Earth From Space” or something like that. It looked like they were growing purple lettuce in this example, everything was on racks, about 10 high, used purple and blue led lights, it didn’t go into much detail as it was just shown as a possible solution to increase food productivity when we have 2 billion more people to feed within another generation. I’d assume that you would get some water runoff from the top rack down to the ones below, plus as you control everything in the environment you’d have no evaporation or pests to worry about.

Cymek said:

They showed an example of a vertical farm on a documentary I watched last night “Earth From Space” or something like that. It looked like they were growing purple lettuce in this example, everything was on racks, about 10 high, used purple and blue led lights, it didn’t go into much detail as it was just shown as a possible solution to increase food productivity when we have 2 billion more people to feed within another generation. I’d assume that you would get some water runoff from the top rack down to the ones below, plus as you control everything in the environment you’d have no evaporation or pests to worry about.

Controlled environments are far more tricky than the ones we were born with.

I think the only reason this would be remotely viable is because it’s re-using an existing building.
Keeping a crop enclosed excludes pests, which would indeed lessen the need for pesticides. But people coming and going will still bring possible pests and diseases, so there’s still the possibility that you can get massive losses. There’s not just insects and mites to worry about, there’s also bacterial and fungal diseases, which are harder to control unless you make everyone suit up and go through foot baths.

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

They showed an example of a vertical farm on a documentary I watched last night “Earth From Space” or something like that. It looked like they were growing purple lettuce in this example, everything was on racks, about 10 high, used purple and blue led lights, it didn’t go into much detail as it was just shown as a possible solution to increase food productivity when we have 2 billion more people to feed within another generation. I’d assume that you would get some water runoff from the top rack down to the ones below, plus as you control everything in the environment you’d have no evaporation or pests to worry about.

Controlled environments are far more tricky than the ones we were born with.

That’s true I was assuming it was to supplement traditional farming and food growing practices as you can do it without needing actual fertile land. The GM grains modified to increase yields two or three fold and grown in drought and salty environments seemed more promising

ruby said:

I think the only reason this would be remotely viable is because it’s re-using an existing building.
Keeping a crop enclosed excludes pests, which would indeed lessen the need for pesticides. But people coming and going will still bring possible pests and diseases, so there’s still the possibility that you can get massive losses. There’s not just insects and mites to worry about, there’s also bacterial and fungal diseases, which are harder to control unless you make everyone suit up and go through foot baths.

Yeh. There are benefits but the wrongs still don’t make it right.

If you want to see some really good food growing that uses some neat technology, check out Sundrop Farms in South Australia. I suspect the fact that they use an arid location means less pests around the farm.

Sundrop Farms

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

They showed an example of a vertical farm on a documentary I watched last night “Earth From Space” or something like that. It looked like they were growing purple lettuce in this example, everything was on racks, about 10 high, used purple and blue led lights, it didn’t go into much detail as it was just shown as a possible solution to increase food productivity when we have 2 billion more people to feed within another generation. I’d assume that you would get some water runoff from the top rack down to the ones below, plus as you control everything in the environment you’d have no evaporation or pests to worry about.

Controlled environments are far more tricky than the ones we were born with.

That’s true I was assuming it was to supplement traditional farming and food growing practices as you can do it without needing actual fertile land. The GM grains modified to increase yields two or three fold and grown in drought and salty environments seemed more promising

Fertile land may be in shorter supply than natural sunlight.

ruby said:

If you want to see some really good food growing that uses some neat technology, check out Sundrop Farms in South Australia. I suspect the fact that they use an arid location means less pests around the farm.

Sundrop Farms

Arid locations are more isolated, yes. The original food bowl of the MIA, was one of those. However it is now so fruit fly ridden that the farmers have their hand out to the government and science to find a soution whilst at the same time they scream loudly that the rivers should not get the water they need to make a living from.

Ent misbehaving

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Controlled environments are far more tricky than the ones we were born with.

That’s true I was assuming it was to supplement traditional farming and food growing practices as you can do it without needing actual fertile land. The GM grains modified to increase yields two or three fold and grown in drought and salty environments seemed more promising

Fertile land may be in shorter supply than natural sunlight.

Natural sunlight can be integrated into these systems with the installation of magnifying sky-lighting which can be delivered via optic fibre. These initial installations appear to be committed to funding further development reliably rather than experimenting with greater production variety.

roughbarked said:

ruby said:

If you want to see some really good food growing that uses some neat technology, check out Sundrop Farms in South Australia. I suspect the fact that they use an arid location means less pests around the farm.

Sundrop Farms

Arid locations are more isolated, yes. The original food bowl of the MIA, was one of those. However it is now so fruit fly ridden that the farmers have their hand out to the government and science to find a soution whilst at the same time they scream loudly that the rivers should not get the water they need to make a living from.

If you pulled all the fruit off your trees for a year would it break the fruit fly cycle ?

dv said:

Ent misbehaving

Ent Interrupted

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

That’s true I was assuming it was to supplement traditional farming and food growing practices as you can do it without needing actual fertile land. The GM grains modified to increase yields two or three fold and grown in drought and salty environments seemed more promising

Fertile land may be in shorter supply than natural sunlight.

Natural sunlight can be integrated into these systems with the installation of magnifying sky-lighting which can be delivered via optic fibre. These initial installations appear to be committed to funding further development reliably rather than experimenting with greater production variety.

so simple, you’d think it could always have fed the miners fresh salads for smoko.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

That’s true I was assuming it was to supplement traditional farming and food growing practices as you can do it without needing actual fertile land. The GM grains modified to increase yields two or three fold and grown in drought and salty environments seemed more promising

Fertile land may be in shorter supply than natural sunlight.

Natural sunlight can be integrated into these systems with the installation of magnifying sky-lighting which can be delivered via optic fibre. These initial installations appear to be committed to funding further development reliably rather than experimenting with greater production variety.

I suppose if eventually we have power in cheap abundance, indoor growing under artificial lights may be extremely viable

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

ruby said:

If you want to see some really good food growing that uses some neat technology, check out Sundrop Farms in South Australia. I suspect the fact that they use an arid location means less pests around the farm.

Sundrop Farms

Arid locations are more isolated, yes. The original food bowl of the MIA, was one of those. However it is now so fruit fly ridden that the farmers have their hand out to the government and science to find a soution whilst at the same time they scream loudly that the rivers should not get the water they need to make a living from.

If you pulled all the fruit off your trees for a year would it break the fruit fly cycle ?

No. I can give reasons but the story will get long.

Cymek said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Fertile land may be in shorter supply than natural sunlight.

Natural sunlight can be integrated into these systems with the installation of magnifying sky-lighting which can be delivered via optic fibre. These initial installations appear to be committed to funding further development reliably rather than experimenting with greater production variety.

I suppose if eventually we have power in cheap abundance, indoor growing under artificial lights may be extremely viable

Natural sunlight can also be used to create natural ventilation and humidification.

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Arid locations are more isolated, yes. The original food bowl of the MIA, was one of those. However it is now so fruit fly ridden that the farmers have their hand out to the government and science to find a soution whilst at the same time they scream loudly that the rivers should not get the water they need to make a living from.

If you pulled all the fruit off your trees for a year would it break the fruit fly cycle ?

No. I can give reasons but the story will get long.

Damn, our trees have fruitfly and I am trying to get rid of them but obviously its a problem for everyone and no easy solution.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Fertile land may be in shorter supply than natural sunlight.

Natural sunlight can be integrated into these systems with the installation of magnifying sky-lighting which can be delivered via optic fibre. These initial installations appear to be committed to funding further development reliably rather than experimenting with greater production variety.

so simple, you’d think it could always have fed the miners fresh salads for smoko.

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

If you pulled all the fruit off your trees for a year would it break the fruit fly cycle ?

No. I can give reasons but the story will get long.

Damn, our trees have fruitfly and I am trying to get rid of them but obviously its a problem for everyone and no easy solution.

correct.
When the MIA was first set up and others followed, Fruit fly border controls were strict and continuous. There are basically non-existent at present and fruit fly is now everywhere.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Natural sunlight can be integrated into these systems with the installation of magnifying sky-lighting which can be delivered via optic fibre. These initial installations appear to be committed to funding further development reliably rather than experimenting with greater production variety.

so simple, you’d think it could always have fed the miners fresh salads for smoko.

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

so simple, you’d think it could always have fed the miners fresh salads for smoko.

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

so simple, you’d think it could always have fed the miners fresh salads for smoko.

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Far be it from me! Just repeating the obvious reflexively I expect.

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

Might find it cutting down on your pharmacy bills in the end……

Postpocelipse said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

Might find it cutting down on your pharmacy bills in the end……

We try to reuse all green waste, our back and front yard were builders and terrible Perth sand when we moved in, we’ve got six vegetable beds feed from tanks which are feed from both the roof and the mains when they run dry and about two dozen fruit trees. Eventually we’d liked to get a fish farm aquaculture set up

Cymek said:

Postpocelipse said:

Cymek said:

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

Might find it cutting down on your pharmacy bills in the end……

We try to reuse all green waste, our back and front yard were builders and terrible Perth sand when we moved in, we’ve got six vegetable beds feed from tanks which are feed from both the roof and the mains when they run dry and about two dozen fruit trees. Eventually we’d liked to get a fish farm aquaculture set up

I produce plenty of coffee ground waste which makes a great base for compost. Will have to request a spot up the back corner here to break it down.

Postpocelipse said:

Cymek said:

Postpocelipse said:

Might find it cutting down on your pharmacy bills in the end……

We try to reuse all green waste, our back and front yard were builders and terrible Perth sand when we moved in, we’ve got six vegetable beds feed from tanks which are feed from both the roof and the mains when they run dry and about two dozen fruit trees. Eventually we’d liked to get a fish farm aquaculture set up

I produce plenty of coffee ground waste which makes a great base for compost. Will have to request a spot up the back corner here to break it down.

It isn’t hard to maintain a compost and worm farm with basic preparation.

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

What do you mean, even if? Man, there are no food miles or even minutes.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

There should be a tree on every block grafted with multiple fruits. Basic food production should be the domain of the population over private enterprise. It is a basic right of the human condition.

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Far be it from me! Just repeating the obvious reflexively I expect.

History is useful but movement should essentially be in the direction one wants to move.

Postpocelipse said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

Might find it cutting down on your pharmacy bills in the end……

I dont have much in the way of pharmacy bills.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Far be it from me! Just repeating the obvious reflexively I expect.

History is useful but movement should essentially be in the direction one wants to move.

Cultural constipation is a constant threat.

Postpocelipse said:

Cymek said:

Postpocelipse said:

Might find it cutting down on your pharmacy bills in the end……

We try to reuse all green waste, our back and front yard were builders and terrible Perth sand when we moved in, we’ve got six vegetable beds feed from tanks which are feed from both the roof and the mains when they run dry and about two dozen fruit trees. Eventually we’d liked to get a fish farm aquaculture set up

I produce plenty of coffee ground waste which makes a great base for compost. Will have to request a spot up the back corner here to break it down.

Grow mushrooms in it.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Cymek said:

We try to reuse all green waste, our back and front yard were builders and terrible Perth sand when we moved in, we’ve got six vegetable beds feed from tanks which are feed from both the roof and the mains when they run dry and about two dozen fruit trees. Eventually we’d liked to get a fish farm aquaculture set up

I produce plenty of coffee ground waste which makes a great base for compost. Will have to request a spot up the back corner here to break it down.

Grow mushrooms in it.

Haven’t got a good spot on this property for that.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

I produce plenty of coffee ground waste which makes a great base for compost. Will have to request a spot up the back corner here to break it down.

Grow mushrooms in it.

Haven’t got a good spot on this property for that.

Make one. Tunnel vision isn’t terribly difficult.

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

You are trying to preach to the long converted now.

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

What do you mean, even if? Man, there are no food miles or even minutes.

It’s not feeding the starving masses but yes you make a good point

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Grow mushrooms in it.

Haven’t got a good spot on this property for that.

Make one. Tunnel vision isn’t terribly difficult.

Don’t mess with my mental orientation.

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

Growing you own food is quite rewarding even if its just in your backyard

What do you mean, even if? Man, there are no food miles or even minutes.

It’s not feeding the starving masses but yes you make a good point

Look, I have no trouble feeding twenty vegetarians off half an acre and the growing area is way less if you take in other infrastructure such as housing and their toiletries.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Haven’t got a good spot on this property for that.

Make one. Tunnel vision isn’t terribly difficult.

Don’t mess with my mental orientation.

That’s not my job. You are the visionary.

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

What do you mean, even if? Man, there are no food miles or even minutes.

It’s not feeding the starving masses but yes you make a good point

Look, I have no trouble feeding twenty vegetarians off half an acre and the growing area is way less if you take in other infrastructure such as housing and their toiletries.

What’s especially rewarding is self sprouting vegetables that grow out of compost you put on the garden, free stuff I did no work to get

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Make one. Tunnel vision isn’t terribly difficult.

Don’t mess with my mental orientation.

That’s not my job. You are the visionary.

Once again you replace my feet to the earth Sheifu…..

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

It’s not feeding the starving masses but yes you make a good point

Look, I have no trouble feeding twenty vegetarians off half an acre and the growing area is way less if you take in other infrastructure such as housing and their toiletries.

What’s especially rewarding is self sprouting vegetables that grow out of compost you put on the garden, free stuff I did no work to get

indeed.

One only needs to allow stuff to work, to get along. It is mindblowingly simple. it is a matter of bemusement that people find other things to fill the news with.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Don’t mess with my mental orientation.

That’s not my job. You are the visionary.

Once again you replace my feet to the earth Sheifu…..

wax on, wax off.

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

That’s not my job. You are the visionary.

Once again you replace my feet to the earth Sheifu…..

wax on, wax off.

The task of shining your date is endless but rewarding……

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Once again you replace my feet to the earth Sheifu…..

wax on, wax off.

The task of shining your date is endless but rewarding……

I was talking about polishing your own fingernails to see your reflection.

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

Once again you replace my feet to the earth Sheifu…..

wax on, wax off.

The task of shining your date is endless but rewarding……

Sometimes its so slippery you can fall over.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

wax on, wax off.

The task of shining your date is endless but rewarding……

Sometimes its so slippery you can fall over.

If you are going to mess with mine or any others date… what would one expect?

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

wax on, wax off.

The task of shining your date is endless but rewarding……

I was talking about polishing your own fingernails to see your reflection.

You don’t want me barking at my own reflection do you?

Postpocelipse said:

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

The task of shining your date is endless but rewarding……

I was talking about polishing your own fingernails to see your reflection.

You don’t want me barking at my own reflection do you?

No. That’s why ‘m inferring that you should stop.

Here’s an analysis, admittedly a few years old, of one of the major vertical farms in the USA.

https://energyfarms.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/energy-and-vertical-farms/

Bottom line, producing a head of lettuce and a quarter-pound of tilapia requires 8 pounds of coal (100000 kJ).

It cost about 33 times as much energy as using traditional outdoor farming and fishing would do.

The thing about lettuce is that it contains hardly any nutritional energy.

That quarter pound (113 grams) of tilapia contains about 600 kJ of useful energy. The head of lettuce, about 200 kJ.

dv said:

Bottom line, producing a head of lettuce and a quarter-pound of tilapia requires 8 pounds of coal (100000 kJ)

GO TEAM!

dv said:

Here’s an analysis, admittedly a few years old, of one of the major vertical farms in the USA.

https://energyfarms.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/energy-and-vertical-farms/

Bottom line, producing a head of lettuce and a quarter-pound of tilapia requires 8 pounds of coal (100000 kJ).

It cost about 33 times as much energy as using traditional outdoor farming and fishing would do.

The thing about lettuce is that it contains hardly any nutritional energy.

That quarter pound (113 grams) of tilapia contains about 600 kJ of useful energy. The head of lettuce, about 200 kJ.

I’d refrained from going that far but yes, I did think of mentioning it.