Super-female bearded dragons ‘more male than males’

When is a female a female? And when is a male a male? These are the questions that scientists continue to ponder after the latest research on an Australian lizard that reverses its sex when exposed to high incubation temperatures.

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See also Wikipedia article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature-dependent_sex_determination

In particular:
“The distinction between chromosomal sex-determination systems and temperature-dependent sex determination (TSD) is often blurred, because the sex of some species, such as the three-lined skink Bassiana duperreyi and the central bearded dragon Pogona vitticeps, is determined by sex chromosomes, but this is over-ridden by temperatures that are tolerable but extreme. For some TSD species, experiments conducted at the pivotal temperature, where temperature is equivocal in its influence, have demonstrated an underlying genetic predisposition to be one sex or the other.”

Just imagine if humans had temperature-dependent sex variation?

mollwollfumble said:

See also Wikipedia article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature-dependent_sex_determination

In particular:
“The distinction between chromosomal sex-determination systems and temperature-dependent sex determination (TSD) is often blurred, because the sex of some species, such as the three-lined skink Bassiana duperreyi and the central bearded dragon Pogona vitticeps, is determined by sex chromosomes, but this is over-ridden by temperatures that are tolerable but extreme. For some TSD species, experiments conducted at the pivotal temperature, where temperature is equivocal in its influence, have demonstrated an underlying genetic predisposition to be one sex or the other.”

Just imagine if humans had temperature-dependent sex variation?

Has sperm temperature ever been tested in human males?

How would that be tested?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Has sperm temperature ever been tested in human males?

How would that be tested?

By coming round to your place with electric testing sticks…..

mollwollfumble said:

Just imagine if humans had temperature-dependent sex variation?

It would be a cheap way of selecting the sex of your child, if you wanted to.

Postpocelipse said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Has sperm temperature ever been tested in human males?

How would that be tested?

By coming round to your place with electric testing sticks…..

For a 1000 males? groups set to different temps, would it influence gender?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Postpocelipse said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Has sperm temperature ever been tested in human males?

How would that be tested?

By coming round to your place with electric testing sticks…..

For a 1000 males? groups set to different temps, would it influence gender?

yes it does among various other factors

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

doesn’t that just set up a weary man for a double serve of the pie….

Postpocelipse said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

doesn’t that just set up a weary man for a double serve of the pie….

I’m not sure what you mean

Arts said:

Postpocelipse said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

doesn’t that just set up a weary man for a double serve of the pie….

I’m not sure what you mean

Work hard and come home to maybe 3 or 4 growing young ladies? You must think our brains are made of bricks.

:P

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

higher blood pressure

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

With these reptiles it is the egg temperature in the nest, or the higher super female internal temperatures that determines the sex of the offspring. Therefore using a similar situation with human reproduction, would it not be the internal temperature of the female that determines the sex of her child and not of the condition of the male sperm?

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

With these reptiles it is the egg temperature in the nest, or the higher super female internal temperatures that determines the sex of the offspring. Therefore using a similar situation with human reproduction, would it not be the internal temperature of the female that determines the sex of her child and not of the condition of the male sperm?

Actually yes, I think you are correct there.

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

there was a similar correlation with high g-force jobs (fighter pilots, automobile racers) that had a similar conclusion. ie, more likely to have a daughter than a son

stumpy_seahorse said:

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

there was a similar correlation with high g-force jobs (fighter pilots, automobile racers) that had a similar conclusion. ie, more likely to have a daughter than a son

Alternatively, could it not be the higher stress levels of the wife?

PermeateFree said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

party_pants said:

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

there was a similar correlation with high g-force jobs (fighter pilots, automobile racers) that had a similar conclusion. ie, more likely to have a daughter than a son

Alternatively, could it not be the higher stress levels of the wife?

Incubation of female sperm might be required.

Postpocelipse said:

PermeateFree said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

there was a similar correlation with high g-force jobs (fighter pilots, automobile racers) that had a similar conclusion. ie, more likely to have a daughter than a son

Alternatively, could it not be the higher stress levels of the wife?

Incubation of female sperm might be required.

I refer to the egg rather than the sperm.

PermeateFree said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

party_pants said:

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

there was a similar correlation with high g-force jobs (fighter pilots, automobile racers) that had a similar conclusion. ie, more likely to have a daughter than a son

Alternatively, could it not be the higher stress levels of the wife?

from what I remember, that wasn’t factored in.
(it was about 10-15 years ago)

PermeateFree said:

Postpocelipse said:

PermeateFree said:

Alternatively, could it not be the higher stress levels of the wife?

Incubation of female sperm might be required.

I refer to the egg rather than the sperm.

Aah I see. as you were….

stumpy_seahorse said:

PermeateFree said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

there was a similar correlation with high g-force jobs (fighter pilots, automobile racers) that had a similar conclusion. ie, more likely to have a daughter than a son

Alternatively, could it not be the higher stress levels of the wife?

from what I remember, that wasn’t factored in.
(it was about 10-15 years ago)

Didn’t need to. Women’s rights were barely heard of back then.

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born, thought to be a replenishment of the young males that have died. Perhaps it could also be that the women are relieved and generally happier that the war is over.

PermeateFree said:

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born, thought to be a replenishment of the young males that have died. Perhaps it could also be that the women are relieved and generally happier that the war is over.

I know it makes a difference in court whether she swooned from fright or delight………

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

stress tends to raise body temp? I dunno

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

With these reptiles it is the egg temperature in the nest, or the higher super female internal temperatures that determines the sex of the offspring. Therefore using a similar situation with human reproduction, would it not be the internal temperature of the female that determines the sex of her child and not of the condition of the male sperm?

Actually yes, I think you are correct there.

sperm is responsible for gender in humans

Arts said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

With these reptiles it is the egg temperature in the nest, or the higher super female internal temperatures that determines the sex of the offspring. Therefore using a similar situation with human reproduction, would it not be the internal temperature of the female that determines the sex of her child and not of the condition of the male sperm?

Actually yes, I think you are correct there.

sperm is responsible for gender in humans

So basically you are meaning selection of sperm by temperature, which is a slightly different approach to temperature selection of sex after conception.

PermeateFree said:

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born, thought to be a replenishment of the young males that have died. Perhaps it could also be that the women are relieved and generally happier that the war is over.

that could be due to higher testosterone levels of both males and females due to war time activities

party_pants said:

Arts said:

party_pants said:

Actually yes, I think you are correct there.

sperm is responsible for gender in humans

So basically you are meaning selection of sperm by temperature, which is a slightly different approach to temperature selection of sex after conception.

yes… but I am speculating using relatively basic knowledge

SUPER FEMALE BEARDED DRAGONS
SUPER FEMALE BEARDED DRAGONS
SUPER FEMALE BEARDED DRAGONS

Arts said:

party_pants said:

Arts said:

there were some studies done on males with more daughters than sons.. indications were that men with high stress jobs tend to produce more females. They concluded that ‘female’ sperm was more robust than ‘male’ sperm and could withstand the ‘stress levels’

extrapolating from this one might be tempted to think that higher testicular temps may produce more females

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

stress tends to raise body temp? I dunno

Maybe when he is stressed he literally gets his undies in a bunch

PermeateFree said:

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born

Ref?

The post ww2 baby boom was mainly female.

dv said:

Arts said:

party_pants said:

How do you link higher stress with higher testicular temps? Not sure I see the connection.

stress tends to raise body temp? I dunno

Maybe when he is stressed he literally gets his undies in a bunch

Loin girding is not good if you want a son?

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born

Ref?

The post ww2 baby boom was mainly female.

>>5 Conclusion
Belligerent countries during World War I and II experienced temporary, yet marked increases in
the secondary birth ratio that have long defied explanation. Based on German data from mid
century, we investigated the adult sex ratio as a potential deep determinant of these rises. Our
findings suggest that male shortfalls were indeed important for the observed increases in the rela-
tive number of boys among newborns.<<
http://www.rwi-essen.de/media/content/pages/publikationen/ruhr-economic-papers/REP_09_154.pdf

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born

Ref?

The post ww2 baby boom was mainly female.

>>The purpose of this paper is to provide manifold reasons attempting to explain why the birth sex ratio following war periods tend to rise in favor of males and what this implies in correlation with infant mortality; and, most of all, to answer the following question: is the combination of these findings proposing that this is an adaptive response of the parent to produce the sex with higher survival prospects in the given environment, or is this simply the by-product of environmental forces?<< https://kevishere.com/2011/05/27/sex_ratio_at_birth_after_conflict/

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

It is interesting to note that after a devastating war, a greater number of sons tend to be born

Ref?

The post ww2 baby boom was mainly female.

Mainly? I’m pretty sure it was reasonably close to 50/50.

PermeateFree said:

>>5 Conclusion
Our findings suggest that male shortfalls were indeed important for the observed increases in the rela-
tive number of boys among newborns.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. Was there a shortfall or an increase?

The Rev Dodgson said:

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

Mainly? I’m pretty sure it was reasonably close to 50/50.

PermeateFree said:

>>5 Conclusion
Our findings suggest that male shortfalls were indeed important for the observed increases in the rela-
tive number of boys among newborns.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. Was there a shortfall or an increase?

I think if you read the entire sentence, it is quite clear that there was a more than usual increase of male births, when compared to female ones.

The Rev Dodgson said:

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

Mainly? I’m pretty sure it was reasonably close to 50/50.

PermeateFree said:

>>5 Conclusion
Our findings suggest that male shortfalls were indeed important for the observed increases in the rela-
tive number of boys among newborns.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. Was there a shortfall or an increase?

To clarify your last comment, due to deaths of males during the war there were fewer adult males, but there were proportionately more male births.

dv said:

Nothing?

That took me like 10 minutes.

dv said:

dv said:

Nothing?

That took me like 10 minutes.

It’s awful being an under-appreciated artist isn’t it? I’ll bet you haven’t got the ticker to schtick at it……..

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

dv said:

Nothing?

That took me like 10 minutes.

It’s awful being an under-appreciated artist isn’t it? I’ll bet you haven’t got the ticker to schtick at it……..

Damn tooting, fuck that for a lark. I cry like a baby when 10 minutes is not appreciated, how would I go if I spent months on a project and couldn’t get a sale?

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Nothing?

That took me like 10 minutes.

It’s awful being an under-appreciated artist isn’t it? I’ll bet you haven’t got the ticker to schtick at it……..

Damn tooting, fuck that for a lark. I cry like a baby when 10 minutes is not appreciated, how would I go if I spent months on a project and couldn’t get a sale?

Took me about five years to prepare some of the experimental shit I’ve posted here. Glad I didn’t indulge for the ovations. ;)

dv said:

dv said:

Nothing?

That took me like 10 minutes.

Well actually we were discussing the abilities of females (or males) to have some out of the ordinary influence on the gender of their children. Sorry you don’t like the subject.

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

It’s awful being an under-appreciated artist isn’t it? I’ll bet you haven’t got the ticker to schtick at it……..

Damn tooting, fuck that for a lark. I cry like a baby when 10 minutes is not appreciated, how would I go if I spent months on a project and couldn’t get a sale?

Took me about five years to prepare some of the experimental shit I’ve posted here. Glad I didn’t indulge for the ovations. ;)

Yes but you’re an amateur in the truest and best sense.

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

dv said:

Nothing?

That took me like 10 minutes.

Well actually we were discussing the abilities of females (or males) to have some out of the ordinary influence on the gender of their children. Sorry you don’t like the subject.

What made you think I didn’t like the subject?

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Damn tooting, fuck that for a lark. I cry like a baby when 10 minutes is not appreciated, how would I go if I spent months on a project and couldn’t get a sale?

Took me about five years to prepare some of the experimental shit I’ve posted here. Glad I didn’t indulge for the ovations. ;)

Yes but you’re an amateur in the truest and best sense.

Why thank you!

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Took me about five years to prepare some of the experimental shit I’ve posted here. Glad I didn’t indulge for the ovations. ;)

Yes but you’re an amateur in the truest and best sense.

Why thank you!

I’ve never been so well complimented. :)

Postpocelipse said:

Postpocelipse said:

dv said:

Yes but you’re an amateur in the truest and best sense.

Why thank you!

I’ve never been so well complimented. :)

Well, so saying means I’m a good complimenter, so thank YOU.

dv said:

Postpocelipse said:

Postpocelipse said:

Why thank you!

I’ve never been so well complimented. :)

Well, so saying means I’m a good complimenter, so thank YOU.

LOL

PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

PermeateFree said:

Mainly? I’m pretty sure it was reasonably close to 50/50.

PermeateFree said:

>>5 Conclusion
Our findings suggest that male shortfalls were indeed important for the observed increases in the rela-
tive number of boys among newborns.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. Was there a shortfall or an increase?

To clarify your last comment, due to deaths of males during the war there were fewer adult males, but there were proportionately more male births.

And what is the evidence that this correlation is due to a causative inverse connection between male population and male birth rate?

The Rev Dodgson said:

PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

That doesn’t make any sense to me. Was there a shortfall or an increase?

To clarify your last comment, due to deaths of males during the war there were fewer adult males, but there were proportionately more male births.

And what is the evidence that this correlation is due to a causative inverse connection between male population and male birth rate?

I guess you might have to do a little work yourself and read the paper.

rolf

Ian said:

rolf

you couldn’t have done that into your hand?