The madness of a simple tally of Daily Mail & Sun readers on the day, as summarised by Kenneth Rogoff:

THE REAL LUNACY of the United Kingdom’s vote to leave the European Union was not that British leaders dared to ask their populace to weigh the benefits of membership against the immigration pressures it presents. Rather, it was the absurdly low bar for exit, requiring only a simple majority. Given voter turnout of 70 percent, this meant that the leave campaign won with only 36 percent of eligible voters backing it.

This isn’t democracy; it is Russian roulette for republics. A decision of enormous consequence — far greater even than amending a country’s constitution (of course, the United Kingdom lacks a written one) — has been made without any appropriate checks and balances.

Does the vote have to be repeated after a year to be sure? No. Does a majority in Parliament have to support Brexit? Apparently not. Did the UK’s population really know what they were voting on? Absolutely not. Indeed, no one has any idea of the consequences, both for the UK in the global trading system, or the effect on domestic political stability. I am afraid it is not going to be a pretty picture…

Full: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/06/24/britain-democratic-failure/Mx888Cle7t6OUyuWyX8n2M/story.html

Bubblecar said:

The madness of a simple tally of Daily Mail & Sun readers on the day, as summarised by Kenneth Rogoff:

THE REAL LUNACY of the United Kingdom’s vote to leave the European Union was not that British leaders dared to ask their populace to weigh the benefits of membership against the immigration pressures it presents. Rather, it was the absurdly low bar for exit, requiring only a simple majority. Given voter turnout of 70 percent, this meant that the leave campaign won with only 36 percent of eligible voters backing it.

This isn’t democracy; it is Russian roulette for republics. A decision of enormous consequence — far greater even than amending a country’s constitution (of course, the United Kingdom lacks a written one) — has been made without any appropriate checks and balances.

Does the vote have to be repeated after a year to be sure? No. Does a majority in Parliament have to support Brexit? Apparently not. Did the UK’s population really know what they were voting on? Absolutely not. Indeed, no one has any idea of the consequences, both for the UK in the global trading system, or the effect on domestic political stability. I am afraid it is not going to be a pretty picture…

Full: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/06/24/britain-democratic-failure/Mx888Cle7t6OUyuWyX8n2M/story.html

Stiff upper lip and all that.

roughbarked said:

Bubblecar said:

The madness of a simple tally of Daily Mail & Sun readers on the day, as summarised by Kenneth Rogoff:

THE REAL LUNACY of the United Kingdom’s vote to leave the European Union was not that British leaders dared to ask their populace to weigh the benefits of membership against the immigration pressures it presents. Rather, it was the absurdly low bar for exit, requiring only a simple majority. Given voter turnout of 70 percent, this meant that the leave campaign won with only 36 percent of eligible voters backing it.

This isn’t democracy; it is Russian roulette for republics. A decision of enormous consequence — far greater even than amending a country’s constitution (of course, the United Kingdom lacks a written one) — has been made without any appropriate checks and balances.

Does the vote have to be repeated after a year to be sure? No. Does a majority in Parliament have to support Brexit? Apparently not. Did the UK’s population really know what they were voting on? Absolutely not. Indeed, no one has any idea of the consequences, both for the UK in the global trading system, or the effect on domestic political stability. I am afraid it is not going to be a pretty picture…

Full: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/06/24/britain-democratic-failure/Mx888Cle7t6OUyuWyX8n2M/story.html

Stiff upper lip and all that.

Means nothing with a wobbly bottom line……..

is this the same democratic system that elects a senator in Australia in ONE votes difference ?

or the one where thousands of votes are simply “lost “ by the electoral austhorities in Australia ?

the great thing is that the working class in Britain will finally have work rather than be steam rollered by millions of people from developing and failed nations .

cheap labour can now make a bee line to Germany and deliver the final blow to Europe

wookiemeister said:

the great thing is that the working class in Britain will finally have work rather than be steam rollered by millions of people from developing and failed nations .

cheap labour can now make a bee line to Germany and deliver the final blow to Europe

If Scotland succeeds in leaving the UK & joining the EU there will have to be borders & immigration control.

I was strongly in favour of UK staying in the EU, but I think much of the talk of the dire consequences is greatly exaggerated.

As for the referendum being undemocratic, that’s just loser talk. If a party had won an election on a platform of leaving the EU (plus a whole load of other stuff) would that be any more democratic?

The Rev Dodgson said:

I was strongly in favour of UK staying in the EU, but I think much of the talk of the dire consequences is greatly exaggerated.

As for the referendum being undemocratic, that’s just loser talk. If a party had won an election on a platform of leaving the EU (plus a whole load of other stuff) would that be any more democratic?

Without compulsory voting I think a 70% turnout is excellent.

wookiemeister said:

the great thing is that the working class in Britain will finally have work rather than be steam rollered by millions of people from developing and failed nations .

cheap labour can now make a bee line to Germany and deliver the final blow to Europe

Probably there are millions of people in the UK who actually believe this sort of thing, which I have no doubt that wookie intended to be ironic.

Tamb said:

wookiemeister said:

the great thing is that the working class in Britain will finally have work rather than be steam rollered by millions of people from developing and failed nations .

cheap labour can now make a bee line to Germany and deliver the final blow to Europe

If Scotland succeeds in leaving the UK & joining the EU there will have to be borders & immigration control.

so be it

but we may have to consider Scotland’s borders to be revised as some Scottish may nit want to be part of the EU and may want to remain tied to Britain ( it’s a possibility )

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

the great thing is that the working class in Britain will finally have work rather than be steam rollered by millions of people from developing and failed nations .

cheap labour can now make a bee line to Germany and deliver the final blow to Europe

Probably there are millions of people in the UK who actually believe this sort of thing, which I have no doubt that wookie intended to be ironic.

I’m sure they will be fine

I don’t live there so it’s not going to affect me very much , the pound has slid some catastrophic slide of a few pence

if it’s going to be cheaper for me to go on holiday in Britain to walk offas dyke and the Pembrokeshire coast path , bring it on.

thank god it’s all over

the EEC was only ever meant to be a trading system that slowed easier progress through Europe and some marginally relaxed border crossings – not the monster it became

it was the conquest of sovereignty by unelected officials in Europe that never got over the Second World War

I guess it means Britain is no longer slowing refugees in and no longer billions of pounds to the EU – let them stew on it

good old EU mentality

they are telling Britain to leave quickly to stop a chain reaction

It is just a hiccup.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-24/bernie-sanders-says-he-will-vote-for-hillary-clinton/7542864

turncoat

as it turns out I think Sanders foreign policies differed little to Hilary’s

I’m not sure trump would allow the American army to storm the Middle East wasting more money nor propping up religious extremists with guns costing the country untold billions of dollars

wookiemeister said:

good old EU mentality

they are telling Britain to leave quickly to stop a chain reaction

Too late. They can’t tell Britain anything now.

roughbarked said:

It is just a hiccup.

I’m amazed they allowed them
to leave , wait and see, they haven’t left yet

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

good old EU mentality

they are telling Britain to leave quickly to stop a chain reaction

Too late. They can’t tell Britain anything now.

I think things will be fine

all the parasites in Britain will migrate to Europe now the handouts will stop

wookiemeister said:

I’m amazed they allowed them
to leave , wait and see, they haven’t left yet

Allowed? Who besides the UK’s voting public allowed this to happen?

that’s probably why the EU wants britain to exit quickly

it stops the parasites from going over easily

wookiemeister said:

that’s probably why the EU wants britain to exit quickly

it stops the parasites from going over easily

The EU have their own business to run.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts—W1AA_n4nEb

wookiemeister said:

Tamb said:

wookiemeister said:

the great thing is that the working class in Britain will finally have work rather than be steam rollered by millions of people from developing and failed nations .

cheap labour can now make a bee line to Germany and deliver the final blow to Europe

If Scotland succeeds in leaving the UK & joining the EU there will have to be borders & immigration control.

so be it

but we may have to consider Scotland’s borders to be revised as some Scottish may nit want to be part of the EU and may want to remain tied to Britain ( it’s a possibility )

The Scottish First Minister said on TV last night that a devolution referendum was on the table.

ChrispenEvan said:

Yeah and look where they put the people they didn’t want! Stupid alright……..

The Australian Flag without the Federation Star is an affront :(

ChrispenEvan said:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts—W1AA_n4nEb

The map I found to be most telling was the one showing every region of England voting to leave – except for a small patch down the south. London voted to remain in with about 60% voting that way. The rest of England chose out, with 57% voting that way. It’s like it is two separate countries.

Exactly……….

this has a pretty good lot of demographics

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts—W1AA_n4nEb

The map I found to be most telling was the one showing every region of England voting to leave – except for a small patch down the south. London voted to remain in with about 60% voting that way. The rest of England chose out, with 57% voting that way. It’s like it is two separate countries.

The irony is that it is the regions where most immigrants live that were happy to stay in the EU.

Saw a little piece on Facebook yesterday that went something like this:

While traveling on a bus in Wales a passenger was becoming increasingly annoyed at another female passenger who was wearing a head-scarf and talking on her phone in a language other than English. After five minutes he finally snapped and exclaimed “Speak English, you’re in Britain so you should should speak English”. At that moment another lady turned around and said “Actually you’re in Wales and she is speaking Welsh’.

May be just made up click-bait and but I still find a a tad amusing.

and comments from young people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people-who-voted-to-remain-in-eu

ChrispenEvan said:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts—W1AA_n4nEb

Sorry, that could not be found.

seems as stupid as the west australians that want to secede from the rest of australia.

ChrispenEvan said:

seems as stupid as the west australians that want to secede from the rest of australia.

I thought the end of the mining boom put an end to that nonsense.

there is a link to the left, at the top, rev.

how old people…

ChrispenEvan said:

seems as stupid as the west australians that want to secede from the rest of australia.

Stupid WAliens? Well I never…

:-P

probably sibeen.

:-)

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

seems as stupid as the west australians that want to secede from the rest of australia.

I thought the end of the mining boom put an end to that nonsense.

I think it died with old Lang Hancock and was buried with him.

ChrispenEvan said:

there is a link to the left, at the top, rev.

how old people…

?
To the left at the top of what?

Anyway googling some of the headline gives me a link to the page that works (which looks identical to your link that doesn’t work)

Maybe for referenda on long term issues all votes should be weighted in proportion to the expected remaining life-span of the voter.

I’d vote for that.

Not that my vote would be worth much.

The Rev Dodgson said:

As for the referendum being undemocratic, that’s just loser talk.

This.

No system of democracy is ever perfect, but it’s no good blaming the system if it didn’t return the result you wanted. This reminds me of the student union mentality when I was at uni in the early 1990s.

ChrispenEvan said:

and comments from young people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people-who-voted-to-remain-in-eu

Just saw a figure that less than 60% of the 24 and under bothered to vote.

ChrispenEvan said:

seems as stupid as the west australians that want to secede from the rest of australia.

Memories of the Hutt River Principality & Prince Leonard.

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

and comments from young people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people-who-voted-to-remain-in-eu

Just saw a figure that less than 60% of the 24 and under bothered to vote.

Aint no one got time fo dat.

poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

and comments from young people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people-who-voted-to-remain-in-eu

Just saw a figure that less than 60% of the 24 and under bothered to vote.

Aint no one got time fo dat.

Actually, I’m trying to get a decent figure for yesterday. At the last election only about 42% of those under 24 voted.

poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

and comments from young people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/meet-the-75-young-people-who-voted-to-remain-in-eu

Just saw a figure that less than 60% of the 24 and under bothered to vote.

Aint no one got time fo dat.

Vote?? I don’t have an app for that.

So is this why opinion polls have been getting it so badly wrong recently?

Young people are over-represented in the opinion polls, and under-represented in the real poll?

The Rev Dodgson said:

So is this why opinion polls have been getting it so badly wrong recently?

Young people are over-represented in the opinion polls, and under-represented in the real poll?

More like “correctly represented in the real poll.”

The Rev Dodgson said:

So is this why opinion polls have been getting it so badly wrong recently?

Young people are over-represented in the opinion polls, and under-represented in the real poll?

There is the problem that young people may only have mobile phones and are less likely to be called by polling firms.

NinaB@queenbernstein: Scotland hates both Brexit and you, you mangled apricot hellbeast!

Brexumptuous

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

Just saw a figure that less than 60% of the 24 and under bothered to vote.

Aint no one got time fo dat.

Vote?? I don’t have an app for that.

There’s an idea…

When the mass migrations begin (Syria is just a blip), I thing England will be very pleased it left the EU, although probably there will be some pain between.

doubt any refugee will even want to go to a busted arse country like england will be. probably why most want to go to germany even now.

ChrispenEvan said:

doubt any refugee will even want to go to a busted arse country like england will be. probably why most want to go to germany even now.

A lot of people in Germany and indeed the EU wish the refugees would go somewhere else. Just a matter of time before things turn really nasty.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I was strongly in favour of UK staying in the EU, but I think much of the talk of the dire consequences is greatly exaggerated.

I am not an economist.
Economists are predicting a protracted recession.

As for the referendum being undemocratic, that’s just loser talk.

There might be something to that.
It’s not as though it was even very close, a 4% margin is clear enough.

Things looking grim for the pound

People are forming long lines to buy as many pounds as they can – a grim day for Britain

This is wookiemeister reporting

It seems to me like a general dissatisfaction exists with the way things are. Although many people have benefited greatly by England being part of the EU, many and probably the greater number have not, all they are left with is inconvenience and higher costs. Not quite the same, but to illustrate the general idea is when someone opens up a lucrative market in Australia for say selling seafood in China or Japan, everyone especially the politicians congratulates the industry, but the public ends up getting less of the product and at considerably higher cost.

The quality of life has been reduced for people at the lower end of the economy, although those at the other end have done very well and few people have the ability to start a business to radically improve their situation, so their ability to reach the other end of the scale is impossible for them to achieve. The gap between those with money, and those without, is widening and the middle class is disappearing because of it. Most people at the bottom end know they have little hope of radically improving themselves or even buying a house, so is it any wonder the average English person is tired of having to compete with often better educated foreigners and being overlooked and discarded in favour of the mighty dollar?

I think people generally are so fed up of having their lives reduced to a price and them to just a commodity, where the dollar is king and everything is sacrificed in order to secure more and then largely for the benefit of the few.

Converted, preached to.

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

wookiemeister said:

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

You have checked they are people right. Their faces don’t come off with a screwdriver to reveal flashing diodes and wires?

Postpocelipse said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

You have checked they are people right. Their faces don’t come off with a screwdriver to reveal flashing diodes and wires?

or an iPhone

Postpocelipse said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

You have checked they are people right. Their faces don’t come off with a screwdriver to reveal flashing diodes and wires?

Good point. I’ll take a screwdriver on my next visit.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Postpocelipse said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

You have checked they are people right. Their faces don’t come off with a screwdriver to reveal flashing diodes and wires?

Good point. I’ll take a screwdriver on my next visit.

Can’t be too certain since that Dr started getting about with his alien parties……..

The Rev Dodgson said:

Postpocelipse said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

You have checked they are people right. Their faces don’t come off with a screwdriver to reveal flashing diodes and wires?

Good point. I’ll take a screwdriver on my next visit.

Remember, if you can’t get their face off you might need to try a phillips head. Maybe pack a full set of tech-bits just to be sure…….

Possibly a small jack-hammer……

Best leverage point is just behind the jaw……

I have actually heard there is a new infiltration model. Fully bio except for the eyes. These will pop out with just a small flat head to reveal the transmitter attached at the rear of the optic ball……

Postpocelipse said:

I have actually heard there is a new infiltration model. Fully bio except for the eyes. These will pop out with just a small flat head to reveal the transmitter attached at the rear of the optic ball……

So if jack-hammering their face off doesn’t work just try the eyeball……

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

I think you ought to read my posts more slowly, before you make such misinformed and silly comment.

PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

wookiemeister said:

Britain stopped training people because it was easier to import

when I left 20 years ago there were no apprenticeships , so if you had gone through education system you had very little chance of doing anything

before the Internet it was virtually impossible to learn very much except from books of dubious value

the NHS has to import doctors and nurses because Britain now discriminates against the working class and especially against native white Englishman . if you are wealthy or have a bit of money in the bank it isn’t a problem , you know people . the army is usually the only option but it leaves you with few skills except killing people.

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

I think you ought to read my posts more slowly, before you make such misinformed and silly comment.

I think you ought to read my posts more slowly, before you make such misinformed and silly comment.

The Rev Dodgson said:

PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So wookie, roughbarked and permeate are all in agreement. It must be true I suppose.

I guess the 100 or so middle class people I know in the UK, all of whom are doing at least OK, must be the last ones left.

I think you ought to read my posts more slowly, before you make such misinformed and silly comment.

I think you ought to read my posts more slowly, before you make such misinformed and silly comment.

He’s probably a robot. I’ll distract him while you pry his face off.

Richard Littler
1 hr ·
The more I read around the referendum and its aftermath, the more I’m convinced that a Brexit, though likely, isn’t 100% certain. It’s not so cut and dried.

Many people don’t realise that a referendum is just opinion gathering. Nothing more. A referendum is asking colleagues if they think it’s a good idea to jump out of a plane. Invoking Article 50 (which the UK must do if it is to formally begin exit proceedings) is actually jumping out of a plane. Big difference.
The referendum is not legally binding as such and parliament has the right to go against the majority vote and make its own decision.

Notice how Cameron has refused to invoke Article 50 and Boris is suddenly not so keen to rush things. “There’s no need for haste”. Equally, Article 50 states that the EU cannot push the UK into exit proceedings.

Additionally, while both sides of the EU debate did not play fair, some of the Leave campaign’s key points have been exposed as fabrications in the last 48 hours (or rather, lots of Leave voters are cottoning on). Leave campaign u-turns already include the NHS (no, it probably won’t get the £350m, which itself was a manipulated figure), immigration (Brexit MEP Hannan finally admitted that the UK will still allow free movement after all) and the economy (The pound is, well, no longer worth the pound it was a week ago).

This has triggered a rash of ‘Bregret’. The simple fact is that many Brits weren’t informed enough (look up Ebbw Vale, Cornwall, the Daily Mail comments, “what is the EU?” google search, protest voting, etc). Do I really need to bother writing satirical Scarfolk posts if I’m outdone by real life?

This has in part brought about a petition for a 2nd referendum, which is the most signed in parliamentary history (currently just shy of 3 million signatures). It’s a petition that was called for by Farage himself, should the result have been in the favour of remaining with such a small margin. Which is what it is: a small margin. The country is more or less split down the middle. Leavers vs remainers, young vs old.

Until this is all sorted out (which could take time) Britain is being taken apart. A 2nd Scottish referendum is very possible, Sinn Fein is questioning the legal right of the UK to take Northern Ireland with it. And Brits are at each other’s throats. Whichever way it goes, half the country – or whatever’s left of it – will feel disenfranchised.

With all this in mind, I wonder if a straightforward “We vote, we leave” Brexit, as many people seem to assume will occur, is even possible.

they will never let them leave

the parasite is too strong and people too stupid

ChrispenEvan said:

Richard Littler
1 hr ·
The more I read around the referendum and its aftermath, the more I’m convinced that a Brexit, though likely, isn’t 100% certain. It’s not so cut and dried.

Many people don’t realise that a referendum is just opinion gathering. Nothing more. A referendum is asking colleagues if they think it’s a good idea to jump out of a plane. Invoking Article 50 (which the UK must do if it is to formally begin exit proceedings) is actually jumping out of a plane. Big difference.
The referendum is not legally binding as such and parliament has the right to go against the majority vote and make its own decision.

Notice how Cameron has refused to invoke Article 50 and Boris is suddenly not so keen to rush things. “There’s no need for haste”. Equally, Article 50 states that the EU cannot push the UK into exit proceedings.

Additionally, while both sides of the EU debate did not play fair, some of the Leave campaign’s key points have been exposed as fabrications in the last 48 hours (or rather, lots of Leave voters are cottoning on). Leave campaign u-turns already include the NHS (no, it probably won’t get the £350m, which itself was a manipulated figure), immigration (Brexit MEP Hannan finally admitted that the UK will still allow free movement after all) and the economy (The pound is, well, no longer worth the pound it was a week ago).

This has triggered a rash of ‘Bregret’. The simple fact is that many Brits weren’t informed enough (look up Ebbw Vale, Cornwall, the Daily Mail comments, “what is the EU?” google search, protest voting, etc). Do I really need to bother writing satirical Scarfolk posts if I’m outdone by real life?

This has in part brought about a petition for a 2nd referendum, which is the most signed in parliamentary history (currently just shy of 3 million signatures). It’s a petition that was called for by Farage himself, should the result have been in the favour of remaining with such a small margin. Which is what it is: a small margin. The country is more or less split down the middle. Leavers vs remainers, young vs old.

Until this is all sorted out (which could take time) Britain is being taken apart. A 2nd Scottish referendum is very possible, Sinn Fein is questioning the legal right of the UK to take Northern Ireland with it. And Brits are at each other’s throats. Whichever way it goes, half the country – or whatever’s left of it – will feel disenfranchised.

With all this in mind, I wonder if a straightforward “We vote, we leave” Brexit, as many people seem to assume will occur, is even possible.

It’s a worry and a decision that neither side expected.
What they need is a someone to negotiate a settlement and devise a road map that everyone is happy with.
An international top shelf negotiator who strides across all countries and continents with good grace and respect, someone like Ecky Thump but tracking him down wont be easy.

>With all this in mind, I wonder if a straightforward “We vote, we leave” Brexit, as many people seem to assume will occur, is even possible.

It’s a done deal, as far as Europe is concerned. They just want the UK out quickly because the procrastination simply extends the economic damage caused by uncertainty, while serving no useful purpose.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true—bJhqBql0VZ

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

It is as if Britain has found a means to illustrate the impending doom of considering an arse-clown with a permanent bad hair day disposition for leadership.

ChrispenEvan said:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true—bJhqBql0VZ

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

I’ve only been skim following this whole thing, but I could see the enormous amount of work involved if they pulled out. You didn’t have to have a very deep knowledge to see it.

ChrispenEvan said:

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

Suppose they gave an election and nobody came.

ChrispenEvan said:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true—bJhqBql0VZ

…(snip)…

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

Interesting.

buffy said:

ChrispenEvan said:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true—bJhqBql0VZ

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

I’ve only been skim following this whole thing, but I could see the enormous amount of work involved if they pulled out. You didn’t have to have a very deep knowledge to see it.

Pulling out is never an effective method

So is it a done deal official and all the like or just talk, if the later you’d lose face if you reversed the decision but perhaps create less of a mess, either way you’ve probably lost the confidence of your voters.

Cymek said:

So is it a done deal official and all the like or just talk, if the later you’d lose face if you reversed the decision but perhaps create less of a mess, either way you’ve probably lost the confidence of your voters.

Well the deal isn’t done yet (the process of exiting isn’t quite as simple as waving goodbye and walking out the door), but the decision to leave the EU has been made and that’s not going to change.

By all accounts it will take the best part of 2 years for the UK to fully extract itself from the EU.

Here’s an interesting article put together by Deloitte explaining the key implications of BREXIT.

http://www.deloitte.co.uk/email/wqv31t9kqm.pdf

They should just blame it on the work experience kid and say sorry we didn’t really want to leave.

Apparently the new name for the decision is Briclusterfuck

diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

So is it a done deal official and all the like or just talk, if the later you’d lose face if you reversed the decision but perhaps create less of a mess, either way you’ve probably lost the confidence of your voters.

Well the deal isn’t done yet (the process of exiting isn’t quite as simple as waving goodbye and walking out the door), but the decision to leave the EU has been made and that’s not going to change.

By all accounts it will take the best part of 2 years for the UK to fully extract itself from the EU.

Here’s an interesting article put together by Deloitte explaining the key implications of BREXIT.

http://www.deloitte.co.uk/email/wqv31t9kqm.pdf

Interesting, diddly.
Goodness. What have they done.
I had to laugh at the line ‘So for now there are some known knowns…..but don’t misunderestimate them yet!’

It’s what happens when you give serfs the vote.
Most of it can be sheeted home to King John and that crazy day out at Runnymede.

Didn’t we have a lovely time the day we went to Runnymede.

The UK. Day 3

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

Bubblecar said:

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

See what happens when you don’t vote…

Peak Warming Man said:

Didn’t we have a lovely time the day we went to Runnymede.

Too many syllylllables in Runnymede….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8WiPy1xSkw

But apparently Blackpool fits….

The sensible part of the UK may still be able to sort this out, Scotland could block the exit-
Och aye

wookie mode on

I predict civil war

Cymek said:

wookie mode on

I predict civil war

But that is why he is not here…he’s deploying his drones to cut the supply lines.

poikilotherm said:

Bubblecar said:

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

See what happens when you don’t vote…

roffle…

John Howard on Brexit-
<<<The desire="" to="" control="" immigration="" was="" “part="" of”="" the="" reason="" for="" the="" vote="" to="" leave,="" but="" also="" said="" it="" was="" “absurd”="" that="" the="" UK="" was="" subject="" to="" the="" European="" Court="" of="" Justice.<="" p="">

“For the nation that gave us the Magna Carta, for heaven’s sake, and the glorious revolution, to be subject to an international court on those things is ridiculous. We wouldn’t accept it in Australia.”>>>

Excepting, of course, the Trans Pacific Partnership, the China free trade agreement and the other trade deals that the Libs signed us up to, that are subject to ISDS provisions and visa agreements.

diddly-squat said:

poikilotherm said:

Bubblecar said:

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

See what happens when you don’t vote…

roffle…

That’s what I’ve saying to the whinging under 24s. 40% of you didn’t vote so you got what you deserved.

Okay, so assuming that the Conservative Party splits and there are fresh elections due to no party having the confidence of the house, and the result is a coalition government between UKIP and the Brexiterer-Conservatives…

Once Northern Ireland votes to reunify and the South and Scotland votes for independence, is this ultraconservative government likely to just let them go, nicely?

ruby said:

John Howard on Brexit-
<<<The desire="" to="" control="" immigration="" was="" “part="" of”="" the="" reason="" for="" the="" vote="" to="" leave,="" but="" also="" said="" it="" was="" “absurd”="" that="" the="" UK="" was="" subject="" to="" the="" European="" Court="" of="" Justice.<="" p="">

“For the nation that gave us the Magna Carta, for heaven’s sake, and the glorious revolution, to be subject to an international court on those things is ridiculous. We wouldn’t accept it in Australia.”>>>

Excepting, of course, the Trans Pacific Partnership, the China free trade agreement and the other trade deals that the Libs signed us up to, that are subject to ISDS provisions and visa agreements.

It seems a bit strange for the former PM of a federation of once independent states to say that federation would not accept being part of a much looser federation.

The Rev Dodgson said:

ruby said:

John Howard on Brexit-
<<<The desire="" to="" control="" immigration="" was="" “part="" of”="" the="" reason="" for="" the="" vote="" to="" leave,="" but="" also="" said="" it="" was="" “absurd”="" that="" the="" UK="" was="" subject="" to="" the="" European="" Court="" of="" Justice.<="" p="">

“For the nation that gave us the Magna Carta, for heaven’s sake, and the glorious revolution, to be subject to an international court on those things is ridiculous. We wouldn’t accept it in Australia.”>>>

Excepting, of course, the Trans Pacific Partnership, the China free trade agreement and the other trade deals that the Libs signed us up to, that are subject to ISDS provisions and visa agreements.

It seems a bit strange for the former PM of a federation of once independent states to say that federation would not accept being part of a much looser federation.

Good grief, how did that happen? Not John Howard, we know how that happened. shakes fist at silly voters who listen to scare campaigns

The Rev Dodgson said:

ruby said:

John Howard on Brexit-
<<<The desire="" to="" control="" immigration="" was="" “part="" of”="" the="" reason="" for="" the="" vote="" to="" leave,="" but="" also="" said="" it="" was="" “absurd”="" that="" the="" UK="" was="" subject="" to="" the="" European="" Court="" of="" Justice.<="" p="">

“For the nation that gave us the Magna Carta, for heaven’s sake, and the glorious revolution, to be subject to an international court on those things is ridiculous. We wouldn’t accept it in Australia.”>>>

Excepting, of course, the Trans Pacific Partnership, the China free trade agreement and the other trade deals that the Libs signed us up to, that are subject to ISDS provisions and visa agreements.

It seems a bit strange for the former PM of a federation of once independent states to say that federation would not accept being part of a much looser federation.

But they’re foreign & therefore unacceptable. Remember “Wogs begin at Calais”

And PWM…thank you not a lot for the earworm. I’ve got Bangor stuck in the brain now. I’ll have to go and polish my shoes and try to replace it with something different. This morning it was past the point of no return from Phantom of the Opera. What should I change it to?

Bubblecar said:

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry about all the people writing to say they voted Leave to send a message, never dreaming the result would be a win for Leave.

ruby said:

The sensible part of the UK may still be able to sort this out, Scotland could block the exit-
Och aye

Yes, I wasn’t including the Scots in that description.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry about all the people writing to say they voted Leave to send a message, never dreaming the result would be a win for Leave.

There was one Leave woman featured in the news saying her family realised they’d made a mistake when Cameron resigned. They were shocked, they didn’t think he’d do that….

Bubblecar said:

ruby said:

The sensible part of the UK may still be able to sort this out, Scotland could block the exit-
Och aye

Yes, I wasn’t including the Scots in that description.

IF they block the exit they will have no hope of another devolution referendum.

Tamb said:

IF they block the exit they will have no hope of another devolution referendum.

They want independence, not devolution. And attempting to obstruct that will just cause yet more problems for Westminster.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

I’ve washed my hands of them. A nation of arseholes and fuckwits.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry about all the people writing to say they voted Leave to send a message, never dreaming the result would be a win for Leave.

There was one Leave woman featured in the news saying her family realised they’d made a mistake when Cameron resigned. They were shocked, they didn’t think he’d do that….

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry about all the people writing to say they voted Leave to send a message, never dreaming the result would be a win for Leave.

There was one Leave woman featured in the news saying her family realised they’d made a mistake when Cameron resigned. They were shocked, they didn’t think he’d do that….

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

Even when you win, you lose…

Bubblecar said:

Tamb said:

IF they block the exit they will have no hope of another devolution referendum.

They want independence, not devolution. And attempting to obstruct that will just cause yet more problems for Westminster.

I agree. Yes independence. I used devolution because some Scottish talking head used it & it sounded plausible. Don’t know who is dumber, her or me.

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry about all the people writing to say they voted Leave to send a message, never dreaming the result would be a win for Leave.

There was one Leave woman featured in the news saying her family realised they’d made a mistake when Cameron resigned. They were shocked, they didn’t think he’d do that….

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

Seriously it would be better for them to do this by voting for minor parties in elections…

poikilotherm said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

There was one Leave woman featured in the news saying her family realised they’d made a mistake when Cameron resigned. They were shocked, they didn’t think he’d do that….

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

The Brits were the first with the Industrial Revolution and is also leading the world by being the first to lead devolution. Who knows, it might turn out to be the course in the long run.

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

diddly-squat said:

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

What’s that got to do with the price of sheep and milk during times of war?

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

diddly-squat said:

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

I know you were joking, but UK university education was fully metric from 1969, and all new engineering work was metric from 1972.

Other than beer, obviously.

I’m worried about the impact on the County Cricket competition with a lot of German players not being eligible anymore.

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

diddly-squat said:

To me BREXIT is like the ultimate up yours to the political establishment… The leadership of both major parties as well as scores of economists said that it would be crazy in the coconut to leave… but still here we are…

I think it sets a very interesting precedent for the upcoming election here where it’s likely that we’ll see a very large swing away from both the ALP and LibNats.

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

yeah… no… the core issue is freedom of movement… the idea behind BREXIT is that the UK can kick freedom of movement to the curb but still snuggle at night with their free trade agreements…

Me thinks this ex-lover will be a tad more jilted than that…

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

I know you were joking, but UK university education was fully metric from 1969, and all new engineering work was metric from 1972.

Other than beer, obviously.

They still use miles on the roads and mph in their cars.

poikilotherm said:

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

What’s that got to do with the price of sheep and milk during times of war?

There was/are a large number of Eurosceptics who worked against full EU integration.

Peak Warming Man said:

I’m worried about the impact on the County Cricket competition with a lot of German players not being eligible anymore.

nein of them..

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

I know you were joking, but UK university education was fully metric from 1969, and all new engineering work was metric from 1972.

Other than beer, obviously.

They still use miles on the roads and mph in their cars.

OK, but they’ve finally caught up with these new litre things for the petrol.

And the roads were designed in km, even if the signs were in miles.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

poikilotherm said:

Even when you win, you lose…

Britain was never fully in the EU. Retained the £ & imperial measurements.

I know you were joking, but UK university education was fully metric from 1969, and all new engineering work was metric from 1972.

Other than beer, obviously.

Wasn’t joking actually. Distances in miles. Dual weights & measures with the metric being in tiny font.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I know you were joking, but UK university education was fully metric from 1969, and all new engineering work was metric from 1972.

Other than beer, obviously.

They still use miles on the roads and mph in their cars.

OK, but they’ve finally caught up with these new litre things for the petrol.

And the roads were designed in km, even if the signs were in miles.

Get the Krauts to design their roads eh?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I know you were joking, but UK university education was fully metric from 1969, and all new engineering work was metric from 1972.

Other than beer, obviously.

They still use miles on the roads and mph in their cars.

OK, but they’ve finally caught up with these new litre things for the petrol.

And the roads were designed in km, even if the signs were in miles.

Most of the roads were designed by the Romans.

And France and Germany refused to change to driving on the left while Italy remained optional.

poikilotherm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

They still use miles on the roads and mph in their cars.

OK, but they’ve finally caught up with these new litre things for the petrol.

And the roads were designed in km, even if the signs were in miles.

Get the Krauts to design their roads eh?

Oh gawd! Not Hermann Tilke. :(

A new British Empire a new world order, a world where everything’s divided by twelve.

To look at it from another point of view, who thinks the EU and similar operations will solve the world’s problems? For there seems to be a great deal of discontent from many places and not only Britain. IMO, we need to start doing things differently and although Britain leaving the EU might not be the ideal thing to do, it is totally different and who knows there might be a silver lining.

Peak Warming Man said:

A new British Empire a new world order, a world where everything’s divided by twelve.

The purpose of twelve is to have left overs packed(just in case).

Doesn’t look like the cunning rabbit hutch plan will be put into operation today, so I’ve given them another frying pan full of oats.

PermeateFree said:

To look at it from another point of view, who thinks the EU and similar operations will solve the world’s problems? For there seems to be a great deal of discontent from many places and not only Britain. IMO, we need to start doing things differently and although Britain leaving the EU might not be the ideal thing to do, it is totally different and who knows there might be a silver lining.

I imagine if anything they will probably make it worse, they will be powerful enough economically and militarily to do what they regardless of the consequences

Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

To look at it from another point of view, who thinks the EU and similar operations will solve the world’s problems? For there seems to be a great deal of discontent from many places and not only Britain. IMO, we need to start doing things differently and although Britain leaving the EU might not be the ideal thing to do, it is totally different and who knows there might be a silver lining.

I imagine if anything they will probably make it worse, they will be powerful enough economically and militarily to do what they regardless of the consequences

Yea, they’ll probably invade Germany and overtake the VW factory…

poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

To look at it from another point of view, who thinks the EU and similar operations will solve the world’s problems? For there seems to be a great deal of discontent from many places and not only Britain. IMO, we need to start doing things differently and although Britain leaving the EU might not be the ideal thing to do, it is totally different and who knows there might be a silver lining.

I imagine if anything they will probably make it worse, they will be powerful enough economically and militarily to do what they regardless of the consequences

Yea, they’ll probably invade Germany and overtake the VW factory…

This cannot be allowed!!

Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

To look at it from another point of view, who thinks the EU and similar operations will solve the world’s problems? For there seems to be a great deal of discontent from many places and not only Britain. IMO, we need to start doing things differently and although Britain leaving the EU might not be the ideal thing to do, it is totally different and who knows there might be a silver lining.

I imagine if anything they will probably make it worse, they will be powerful enough economically and militarily to do what they regardless of the consequences

Things will undoubtedly change and some will probably be worse, but new ways of doing things will evolve. The EU has a major problem and that it the immigration of huge numbers of people. This will create considerable problems and possibly make its operation impossible, as countries take action to exclude people.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/eu-referendum-brexit-vote-leave-iain-duncan-smith-nhs?CMP=soc_567

Leading Brexit campaigner Iain Duncan Smith has distanced himself from a pledge by the official leave campaign to spend £350m “sent to the EU every week” on the NHS, saying he had never made the claim.

During the referendum campaign, Vote Leave issued posters reading: “Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week.” The campaign’s battlebus, outside which the former work and pensions secretary was frequently photographed, featured the slogan: “We send the EU £350 million a week – let’s fund our NHS instead.”

But asked about the statement on Sunday morning, Duncan Smith said he had never made the claim during the campaign.

Speaking to the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show, he said: “I never said that during the course of the election. The £350m was an extrapolation of the £19.1bn – that’s the total amount of money we gave across to the European Union. What we actually said was a significant amount of it would go to the NHS. It’s essentially down to the government, but I believe that is what was pledged and that’s what should happen. There was talk about it going to the NHS, but there are other bits and pieces like agriculture, which is part of the process. That is the divide up. It was never the total.”

——

Why would anyone have thought that the likes of Boris Johnson or IDS would have wanted to fund the NHS?

The survey by the Institute of Directors (IoD), which found that the majority of businesses believed Brexit was bad for them, comes amid fears that investors will wipe billions more pounds off share values on Monday morning, and signs that the pound, which hit a 30-year low on Friday, was coming under further pressure from trading in Asia. Sterling was down more than 1% as the Asian markets opened late on Sunday.

George Osborne will make a statement on Monday morning ‎to provide reassurance about financial and economic stability in light of the referendum result and the actions that he and the rest of the government will be taking to protect the national interest over the coming period.

The IoD said a quarter of the members polled in a survey were putting hiring plans on hold, while 5% said they were set to make workers redundant. Nearly two-thirds of those polled said the outcome of the referendum was negative for their business. One in five respondents, out of a poll of more than 1,000 business leaders, were considering moving some of their operations outside of the UK.

Market turmoil fears likely to force Mark Carney to abandon ECB meeting Read more
In preparation for further turmoil on the markets after a record $2tn (£1.5tn) was wiped off global share prices on Friday, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, was expected to abandon plans to travel to a meeting of central bankers and policy makers organised by the European Central Bank in Portugal on Wednesday. He will remain in London to oversee the response to the uncertainty.

Advertisement

The FTSE 100 index of leading shares is expected to fall by 2.8%, or around 180 points, when the market opens on Monday. City dealers are expected to arrive at their desks early to cope with an anticipated surge in orders, and analysts will be closely monitoring the pound, after it came under pressure in early trading on Sunday. Central bank bosses meeting in Switzerland have said they will carefully scrutinise market stability in the weeks ahead.

Meanwhile, fears are spreading that an estimated 100,000 roles could be lost in the financial sector if banks press on with contingency plans to move jobs out of the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/26/city-of-london-expecting-further-post-brexit-losses-when-trade-reopens

There’s been a lot of friction and heat generated over the brexit decision but no light so far.

Peak Warming Man said:

There’s been a lot of friction and heat generated over the brexit decision but no light so far.

Not even on the hill?

Karma

CrazyNeutrino said:

The UK. Day 3

Ozexit?

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

The UK. Day 3

Ozexit?

People should identify where they are going before they leave where they are.

Postpocelipse said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

The UK. Day 3

Ozexit?

People should identify where they are going before they leave where they are.

What are they, refugees on their own land?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe#comment-77454404

Geoffrey Robertson may be setting a record, over a thousand comments in about an hour. Most of them telling him to fuck off, quite rightly so, IMHO.

sibeen said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe#comment-77454404

Geoffrey Robertson may be setting a record, over a thousand comments in about an hour. Most of them telling him to fuck off, quite rightly so, IMHO.

A lot of butthurt from the stayers.

sibeen said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe#comment-77454404

Geoffrey Robertson may be setting a record, over a thousand comments in about an hour. Most of them telling him to fuck off, quite rightly so, IMHO.

Bastard. You made me look.

More evidence that UK Labour has turned into a cult led by two psychopaths:

The BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg and others have seen the documents which prove that Corbyn and his top team were guilty of much worse than a lack of enthusiasm. They engaged in “deliberate sabotage” of the remain campaign. They pulled out of critical media appearances at the last minute, or else passed up media opportunities to make the case against Brexit; they removed pro-EU lines from speeches; they repeatedly diluted the official Labour position of support for in.

My own reporting, speaking to those involved with the in campaign, confirms this account, as does Phil Wilson MP, parliamentary chair of Labour In For Britain. At those moments of the campaign when Labour was to be given the floor, the party had either prepared nothing or used its platform to attack the Tories fronting the remain campaign, rubbishing George Osborne’s warnings of the economic consequences of Brexit for example. There were plans for a dramatic intervention by all Labour’s leaders – past and present – to stand together and call for remain, designed to ram home to Labour supporters where their party stood. But that was scuppered by Corbyn’s refusal to be associated, even indirectly, with Tony Blair. One idea would have seen Blair in Belfast, Gordon Brown in Glasgow, Neil Kinnock in Cardiff and Jeremy Corbyn in England – but Team Corbyn said no to that and every other version of the plan.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/young-put-jeremy-corbyn-in-now-should-push-him-out

http://www.cnet.com/au/news/brexit-leave-campaign-wipes-website-amid-accusations-of-false-promises/

Leave campaign website flushed. The snake oil caravan has moved on.

always amuses me when this happens. it just goes to show that these types don’t know how the internet works.

Kelvin Mackenzie admits ‘buyer’s remorse’ after voting for Brexit
Mackenzie admitted his regret in the Sun which backed a Leave vote

The former editor of The Sun, Kelvin Mackenzie, says he has “buyers remorse” after voting for the UK to leave the European Union.

Mackenzie edited the paper from 1981 to 1994 and still contributes to the tabloid with a column.

The Sun, which has a history of backing a political force and then seeing them gain success, encouraged its readers to vote to leave the EU. On Friday morning, it was revealed Britain would be heading for a Brexit after 52 per cent of the electorate voted in favour of leaving the EU.

However, on Monday, Mackenzie admitted he was experiencing what he referred to as “buyer’s remorse” and said he was “fearful” of what is yet to come.

“When I put my cross against Leave I felt a surge as though for the first time in my life my vote did count. I had power,” he wrote.

“Four days later I don’t feel quite the same. I have buyer’s remorse. A sense of be careful what you wish for. To be truthful I am fearful of what lies ahead.”

Mackenzie’s admission follows a phenomenon wich emerged over the weekend dubbed “Bregret” as a number of Leave voters publicly expressed their regret at voting to leave the EU. Some said their regret came after witnessing the pound plummet to its lowest levels since 1985, £120bn being wiped off the FTSE 100, David Cameron resigning and the Labour leadership holding crisis talks. Others voiced their outrage that a pledge of the Leave campaign to spend the supposed £350million sent to the EU on a weekly basis on the NHS instead was immediately dismissed by Nigel Farage the morning after the vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/brexit-kelvin-mackenzie-eu-referendum-leave-vote-latest-news-bregret-the-sun-a7105431.html

dv said:

http://www.cnet.com/au/news/brexit-leave-campaign-wipes-website-amid-accusations-of-false-promises/

Leave campaign website flushed. The snake oil caravan has moved on.

Is snake oil made from snakes? or for snakes?

bob(from black rock) said:

dv said:

http://www.cnet.com/au/news/brexit-leave-campaign-wipes-website-amid-accusations-of-false-promises/

Leave campaign website flushed. The snake oil caravan has moved on.

Is snake oil made from snakes? or for snakes?

neither.

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

dv said:

http://www.cnet.com/au/news/brexit-leave-campaign-wipes-website-amid-accusations-of-false-promises/

Leave campaign website flushed. The snake oil caravan has moved on.

Is snake oil made from snakes? or for snakes?

neither.

Ploise exploin!

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Is snake oil made from snakes? or for snakes?

neither.

Ploise exploin!

no such thing as snake oil. That’s why any snake oil salesman is one to be distrusted.

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Is snake oil made from snakes? or for snakes?

neither.

Ploise exploin!

Buffalo wings……….

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

neither.

Ploise exploin!

no such thing as snake oil. That’s why any snake oil salesman is one to be distrusted.

So a bit like a vacuum salesman?

Postpocelipse said:

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

neither.

Ploise exploin!

Buffalo wings……….

Don’t swear at me, sonny jim. ;)

Half of the Labour shadow cabinet has resigned when will the grey haired loon resign?

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

neither.

Ploise exploin!

no such thing as snake oil. That’s why any snake oil salesman is one to be distrusted.

Those people with the magical tonic that talk it up and its all lies

roughbarked said:

Postpocelipse said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Ploise exploin!

Buffalo wings……….

Don’t swear at me, sonny jim. ;)

:P

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

Ploise exploin!

no such thing as snake oil. That’s why any snake oil salesman is one to be distrusted.

So a bit like a vacuum salesman?

come in sucker.

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

roughbarked said:

no such thing as snake oil. That’s why any snake oil salesman is one to be distrusted.

So a bit like a vacuum salesman?

come in sucker.

The modern equivalent is all the stupid exercise gimmicks on tv, like that vibrating board you stand on and you feel like you gone into warp drive

Peak Warming Man said:

Half of the Labour shadow cabinet has resigned when will the grey haired loon resign?

He’s not there to serve the Labour Party, he’s there to serve the party membership. Many of whom are now hard left entryists from the various activist groups he’s been involved with.

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Half of the Labour shadow cabinet has resigned when will the grey haired loon resign?

He’s not there to serve the Labour Party, he’s there to serve the party membership. Many of whom are now hard left entryists from the various activist groups he’s been involved with.

No matter how you slice it, now is the exact time for Labour to be closing ranks and focussing on the Conservatives, who are probably at their weakest ebb in over a decade.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Half of the Labour shadow cabinet has resigned when will the grey haired loon resign?

He’s not there to serve the Labour Party, he’s there to serve the party membership. Many of whom are now hard left entryists from the various activist groups he’s been involved with.

No matter how you slice it, now is the exact time for Labour to be closing ranks and focussing on the Conservatives, who are probably at their weakest ebb in over a decade.

It’s not going to be possible. Corbyn is more hated in the PLP than ever before, and understandably so since he more-or-less deliberately sabotaged their Remain campaign.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Half of the Labour shadow cabinet has resigned when will the grey haired loon resign?

He’s not there to serve the Labour Party, he’s there to serve the party membership. Many of whom are now hard left entryists from the various activist groups he’s been involved with.

No matter how you slice it, now is the exact time for Labour to be closing ranks and focussing on the Conservatives, who are probably at their weakest ebb in over a decade.

I don’t know what papers you are reading but Labour is in disarray over Brexit, it was their constituents who voted to leave and the grey haired loon did nothing about it while pretending to be for the stay campaign.

75% of the constituents in Corbyn’s constituency voted Remain.

“Labour is in disarray over Brexit, it was their constituents who voted to leave “

False. Some things are uncertain, some things are subjective, but some things are examinable via simple statistics.
There’s an almost perfect correlation between the Conservative vote at the last General Election and the Brexit vote at this referendum. The Labour areas of London, the Midlands, Liverpool, western Yorkshire all went for Remain.

>the Conservatives, who are probably at their weakest ebb in over a decade.

You have to bear in mind that Labour are at their weakest ebb ever. The leadership clique and the rest of the parliamentary party are essentially two different parties.

If there is indeed a split in the Conservatives then there could be an election sooner than anticipated so we can only hope the Blairites have finished their tantrum by then.

The Remain campaign always needed Labour voters to win the referendum and the fact that they did not play ball will be the subject of a long and acrimonious post-mortem within the opposition.

Not only did Labour – 90% of whose MPs backed staying in the EU – badly misjudge the mood of its supporters, when it realised something was wrong during the campaign, it was unable to do much about it.

Despite sending in big beasts such as Gordon Brown and Sadiq Khan to talk up the benefits of the EU, and hinting that further controls on immigration would be needed, it was unable to shift the impression of a growing schism between those running the party and its base.
—————————————

BBC.

dv said:

If there is indeed a split in the Conservatives then there could be an election sooner than anticipated so we can only hope the Blairites have finished their tantrum by then.

Oh dear, that “Blairites” word again. They’re not Blairites, they’re traditional Labour centrists. And they’re facing a tiny leadership clique consisting of hard-core Old Left, supported by huge numbers of Trotsky-type entryists.

Corbyn & co. have never had any loyalty to Labour. He was a useless backbencher routinely voting against his party for 30 fucking years. His loyalty lies with hard left activist groups who have traditionally always hated labour.

Why did they call for a vote if the outcome wasn’t clear

Peak Warming Man said:

The Remain campaign always needed Labour voters to win the referendum and the fact that they did not play ball will be the subject of a long and acrimonious post-mortem within the opposition.

Not only did Labour – 90% of whose MPs backed staying in the EU – badly misjudge the mood of its supporters, when it realised something was wrong during the campaign, it was unable to do much about it.

Despite sending in big beasts such as Gordon Brown and Sadiq Khan to talk up the benefits of the EU, and hinting that further controls on immigration would be needed, it was unable to shift the impression of a growing schism between those running the party and its base.
—————————————

BBC.

\

So what?

Labour voters, overwhelmingly, voted Remain. Corbyn attended hundreds of public meetings arguing the case for remain: and Labour voters overwhelmingly did. The numbers don’t lie, you can’t spin it.
A majority of Conservative (and of course almost all UKIP) voters voted Leave.

Cymek said:

Why did they call for a vote if the outcome wasn’t clear

There are different views and of course who of us really know Cameron’s mind, but one common view is that Cameron was confident of a Remain vote winning, and thought that holding a referendum would strengthen his hand against UKIP and against Euroskeptics in his own party.
If this is the case then this has got to be one of those outrageous cockups in the history of politics.

dv said:

Cymek said:

Why did they call for a vote if the outcome wasn’t clear

There are different views and of course who of us really know Cameron’s mind, but one common view is that Cameron was confident of a Remain vote winning, and thought that holding a referendum would strengthen his hand against UKIP and against Euroskeptics in his own party.
If this is the case then this has got to be one of those outrageous cockups in the history of politics.

I was wondering if it was something like, you thought you’d get kudos from everyone for it but alas no

dv said:

Cymek said:

Why did they call for a vote if the outcome wasn’t clear

There are different views and of course who of us really know Cameron’s mind, but one common view is that Cameron was confident of a Remain vote winning, and thought that holding a referendum would strengthen his hand against UKIP and against Euroskeptics in his own party.
If this is the case then this has got to be one of those outrageous cockups in the history of politics.

Not just Cameron – Boris was also banking on Remain winning. He knows that taking over from Cameron after a win for Leave is going to be an extremely thankless job.

Here’s the breakdown of Remain-Leave by voter-party
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Conservatives 42% Remain – 58% Leave
Labour 63% Remain – 37% Leave
LibDems 70% Remain – 30% Leave
UKIP 4% Remain – 96% Leave
Greens 75% Remain – 25% Leave
SNP 64% Remain – 36% Leave

>>So what?

The BBC article encapsulates my point.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>So what?

The BBC article encapsulates my point.

So you will be using it for your peak warming contracts from here?

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Cymek said:

Why did they call for a vote if the outcome wasn’t clear

There are different views and of course who of us really know Cameron’s mind, but one common view is that Cameron was confident of a Remain vote winning, and thought that holding a referendum would strengthen his hand against UKIP and against Euroskeptics in his own party.
If this is the case then this has got to be one of those outrageous cockups in the history of politics.

Not just Cameron – Boris was also banking on Remain winning. He knows that taking over from Cameron after a win for Leave is going to be an extremely thankless job.

He must be ruing his own powers of persuasion…

Labour is facing an extraordinary meltdown in its traditional heartlands as working-class areas voted ‘Leave’ in their droves.

Despite the party leadership and almost every Labour MP campaigning for Remain, traditional Labour areas ignored their pleas and voted to pull Britain out of the EU.

The results have piled huge pressure on Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, with many MPs blaming him for a lacklustre campaign and for failing to connect with working class voters.
———————————————-

There is just a shed load of evidence that labour failed to convince its constituents.
It’s a no brainer.

The grey haired loon needs to do the honourable thing and resign.

Peak Warming Man said:

The grey haired loon needs to do the honourable thing and resign.

Nah! fall on his sword.

me mum who’s got dual citizenship was pleased by the news

bob(from black rock) said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The grey haired loon needs to do the honourable thing and resign.

Nah! fall on his sword.

Or just continue to represent the membership who voted for him? Like he got 60%, the dude who came second got 20% … it’s not like it was lineball.
Labor is finally ahead of the Conservatives in the polls … Corbyn has no sane reason to resign. He’ll replace the quitters with younger, better people and roll on.

If I could have voted I’d have voted to Remain.

The Prime Minister has resigned.
The English football manager has resigned and the Queen is considering her position.

Peak Warming Man said:

Labour is facing an extraordinary meltdown in its traditional heartlands as working-class areas voted ‘Leave’ in their droves.

Despite the party leadership and almost every Labour MP campaigning for Remain, traditional Labour areas ignored their pleas and voted to pull Britain out of the EU.

The results have piled huge pressure on Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, with many MPs blaming him for a lacklustre campaign and for failing to connect with working class voters.
———————————————-

There is just a shed load of evidence that labour failed to convince its constituents.
It’s a no brainer.

Nah, like nearly two thirds went Remain. For numerate people it really is a no brainer. The “evidence” is just people trying to somehow perform contrafactual spin, but (shrugs) I guess people can make a living writing columns saying white is black.

Here’s the breakdown of Remain-Leave by voter-party
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Conservatives 42% Remain – 58% Leave
Labour 63% Remain – 37% Leave
LibDems 70% Remain – 30% Leave
UKIP 4% Remain – 96% Leave
Greens 75% Remain – 25% Leave
SNP 64% Remain – 36% Leave

Does UKIP stand for United Kingdom Ignorance Profundia?

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Labour is facing an extraordinary meltdown in its traditional heartlands as working-class areas voted ‘Leave’ in their droves.

Despite the party leadership and almost every Labour MP campaigning for Remain, traditional Labour areas ignored their pleas and voted to pull Britain out of the EU.

The results have piled huge pressure on Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, with many MPs blaming him for a lacklustre campaign and for failing to connect with working class voters.
———————————————-

There is just a shed load of evidence that labour failed to convince its constituents.
It’s a no brainer.

Nah, like nearly two thirds went Remain. For numerate people it really is a no brainer. The “evidence” is just people trying to somehow perform contrafactual spin, but (shrugs) I guess people can make a living writing columns saying white is black.

Here’s the breakdown of Remain-Leave by voter-party
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Conservatives 42% Remain – 58% Leave
Labour 63% Remain – 37% Leave
LibDems 70% Remain – 30% Leave
UKIP 4% Remain – 96% Leave
Greens 75% Remain – 25% Leave
SNP 64% Remain – 36% Leave

Given that the Remain and Leave campaigns were both headed by high profile Conservative politicians their numbers are not surprising but with such a small sample size, 12000 post poll punters, the results are pretty academic. Still the numbers for labour are weak on the stay side since they were not split on the issue.

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Labour is facing an extraordinary meltdown in its traditional heartlands as working-class areas voted ‘Leave’ in their droves.

Despite the party leadership and almost every Labour MP campaigning for Remain, traditional Labour areas ignored their pleas and voted to pull Britain out of the EU.

The results have piled huge pressure on Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, with many MPs blaming him for a lacklustre campaign and for failing to connect with working class voters.
———————————————-

There is just a shed load of evidence that labour failed to convince its constituents.
It’s a no brainer.

Nah, like nearly two thirds went Remain. For numerate people it really is a no brainer. The “evidence” is just people trying to somehow perform contrafactual spin, but (shrugs) I guess people can make a living writing columns saying white is black.

Here’s the breakdown of Remain-Leave by voter-party
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Conservatives 42% Remain – 58% Leave
Labour 63% Remain – 37% Leave
LibDems 70% Remain – 30% Leave
UKIP 4% Remain – 96% Leave
Greens 75% Remain – 25% Leave
SNP 64% Remain – 36% Leave

Given that the Remain and Leave campaigns were both headed by high profile Conservative politicians their numbers are not surprising but with such a small sample size, 12000 post poll punters, the results are pretty academic. Still the numbers for labour are weak on the stay side since they were not split on the issue.

More than enough to get a confidence level of 99% and a 2% margin of error with a population of 64 mill

poikilotherm said:

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Nah, like nearly two thirds went Remain. For numerate people it really is a no brainer. The “evidence” is just people trying to somehow perform contrafactual spin, but (shrugs) I guess people can make a living writing columns saying white is black.

Here’s the breakdown of Remain-Leave by voter-party
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Conservatives 42% Remain – 58% Leave
Labour 63% Remain – 37% Leave
LibDems 70% Remain – 30% Leave
UKIP 4% Remain – 96% Leave
Greens 75% Remain – 25% Leave
SNP 64% Remain – 36% Leave

Given that the Remain and Leave campaigns were both headed by high profile Conservative politicians their numbers are not surprising but with such a small sample size, 12000 post poll punters, the results are pretty academic. Still the numbers for labour are weak on the stay side since they were not split on the issue.

More than enough to get a confidence level of 99% and a 2% margin of error with a population of 64 mill

Yep.

Statistics beat opinion columns every day of the week.

dv said:

poikilotherm said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Given that the Remain and Leave campaigns were both headed by high profile Conservative politicians their numbers are not surprising but with such a small sample size, 12000 post poll punters, the results are pretty academic. Still the numbers for labour are weak on the stay side since they were not split on the issue.

More than enough to get a confidence level of 99% and a 2% margin of error with a population of 64 mill

Yep.

Statistics beat opinion columns every day of the week.

PWM has gone all UKIP…

It’s all academic since many of those supposed “Labour voters” are unlikely to vote Labour next time anyway.

>Corbyn has no sane reason to resign.

I thought you actually followed the politics of various countries. In how many other countries could the supposed “leader of the opposition” survive the resignation of most of his hand-picked shadow cabinet, while having never had majority support amongst the rest of his parliamentary party?

It’s a weird situation and means the party is absurdly dysfunctional. But he will hang on because:

a) He’s a totally self-centred shit who’s completely up himself.
b) He has the support of most of the membership, about half of whom are far-left entryists who joined the party after he became leader.

He talks about “democracy” while spitting on the millions of voters who elected his fellow MPs, hoping for a moderate Labour Party that’s fit for government.

Not much change in the pre-race favourites this year:

Pre-race favorites

The main pre-race favorites are Chris Froome, Nairo Quintana, and Alberto Contador. Other possible contenders for general classification include Richie Porte, Thibaut Pinot, Fabio Aru, Geraint Thomas, Vincenzo Nibali, Romain Bardet, and Tejay Van Garderen.[6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Tour_de_France

Bubblecar said:

Not much change in the pre-race favourites this year:

Pre-race favorites

The main pre-race favorites are Chris Froome, Nairo Quintana, and Alberto Contador. Other possible contenders for general classification include Richie Porte, Thibaut Pinot, Fabio Aru, Geraint Thomas, Vincenzo Nibali, Romain Bardet, and Tejay Van Garderen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Tour_de_France

…but they won’t be able to stop Brexit.

Have we reached peak butthurt yet?

AwesomeO said:

Have we reached peak butthurt yet?

Nooooo.

Lots of tragic British self-absorption to come.

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear?

completely pinched

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear?

completely pinched

sibeen said:

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear?

completely pinched

Jebus, when condensed like that the cluster assumes monumental proportions.

Not sure about the market crashing though, thought it had all bounced back.

sibeen said:

So, let me get this straight.
(snip)
Clear?

completely pinched

Yeap

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

Rule 303 said:

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

Must admit, that’s an eye roller.

roughbarked said:

Rule 303 said:

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

Must admit, that’s an eye roller.

Now it’ll be changed to Votey McStoteface……

Rule 303 said:

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

It may be a good decision. Time will tell.

AwesomeO said:

Rule 303 said:

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

It may be a good decision. Time will tell.

No, no, no. You cannot say that. These stupid people voted the wrong way…end of.

sibeen said:

AwesomeO said:

Rule 303 said:

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

It may be a good decision. Time will tell.

No, no, no. You cannot say that. These stupid people voted the wrong way…end of.

Well it’s not looking very bright for them. And Scotland will almost certainly go their own way, which in a post-Brexit situation means real proper borders, passports, customs control etc.

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

AwesomeO said:

It may be a good decision. Time will tell.

No, no, no. You cannot say that. These stupid people voted the wrong way…end of.

Well it’s not looking very bright for them. And Scotland will almost certainly go their own way, which in a post-Brexit situation means real proper borders, passports, customs control etc.

Markets seem to have recovered very quickly and from what I have read, under EU membership guidelines, Scotland doesn’t have a snowballs chance.

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

No, no, no. You cannot say that. These stupid people voted the wrong way…end of.

Well it’s not looking very bright for them. And Scotland will almost certainly go their own way, which in a post-Brexit situation means real proper borders, passports, customs control etc.

Markets seem to have recovered very quickly and from what I have read, under EU membership guidelines, Scotland doesn’t have a snowballs chance.

Way worse for Norn Iron than Scotland; but it is obvious, as bubbles states, that these people are not very bright.

AwesomeO said:

Markets seem to have recovered very quickly and from what I have read, under EU membership guidelines, Scotland doesn’t have a snowballs chance.

Markets were merely responding to the uncertainty raised by the referendum, which is non-binding. The UK is still in the EU at this point. Once they activate Article 50, it’s a different situation.

It’s quite possible that Scotland will be able to fast-track EU membership after leaving the UK.

Bubblecar said:

AwesomeO said:

Markets seem to have recovered very quickly and from what I have read, under EU membership guidelines, Scotland doesn’t have a snowballs chance.

Markets were merely responding to the uncertainty raised by the referendum, which is non-binding. The UK is still in the EU at this point. Once they activate Article 50, it’s a different situation.

It’s quite possible that Scotland will be able to fast-track EU membership after leaving the UK.

I do love that the “non-binding” crap all came out after the vote had been counted. That really is laughable.

sibeen said:

Way worse for Norn Iron than Scotland; but it is obvious, as bubbles states, that these people are not very bright.

Scotland’s independence drive was always likely to get back on the rails. And a Brexit in the name of “sovereignty” means the sovereignty of Westminster, making it all harder for the union case at the next referendum.

My prediction is they will slow walk to article 50 meanwhile negotiating an altered agreement. Reason I think that is motivation, no one in the the British establishment seems to want to leave and the EU would prefer they didn’t.

AwesomeO said:

My prediction is they will slow walk to article 50 meanwhile negotiating an altered agreement. Reason I think that is motivation, no one in the the British establishment seems to want to leave and the EU would prefer they didn’t.

Many Tory Party members have long been Leavers. UKIP is largely a product of disaffected hard-core establishment Tories.

Rule 303 said:

I am really struggling with the idea that they left a decision this important to the same populus who came up with ‘Boaty McBoatface’.

Yeah, nah….I got nothing :/

sibeen said:

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

Clear?

completely pinched

Seems like a pretty good summary.

Why don’t they just negotiate definite terms for leaving, have another referendum just to make sure that the majority still want to leave now that the conditions of leaving are known, get the answer no, then forget it ever happened as quickly as possible?