Date: 4/08/2016 19:08:03
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 935700
Subject: Moon Express?

Spotted on tonight’s news.

Thrilled to announce formal US Government approval for our Moon Express 2017 mission.

Privately funded commercial space company created to develop and mine the resources of the Moon and further space.

In August 2010, Naveen Jain, Barney Pell and Robert D. Richards, co-founded Moon Express, a Mountain View, California-based company that plans to offer commercial lunar robotic transportation and data services with a long-term goal of mining the Moon for resources.

In mid-2012, Moon Express announced that it will work with International Lunar Observatory Association (ILOA) to put a shoebox-sized astronomical telescope on the Moon. Additional details were released in July 2013, including that there would be two telescopes: a 2 meters (6 ft 7 in) radio telescope as well as an optical telescope. The preferred location is 5 kilometers (3.1 mi)-high Malapert crater, with plans to land the mission no earlier than 2018.

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Date: 5/08/2016 06:10:04
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 935861
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Press release http://www.moonexpress.com/files/moon-express-press-kit.pdf

U S G O V E R N M E N T A P P R O V E S P L A N F O R M O O N E X P R E S S
TO BECOME FIRST PRIVATE COMPANY TO VENTURE BEYOND EARTH’S ORBIT

The U.S. Government has made a historic ruling to allow the first private enterprise,
Moon Express, Inc. (MoonEx), permission to travel beyond Earth’s orbit and land
on the Moon in 2017. This breakthrough U.S. policy decision provides authorization
to Moon Express for a maiden flight of its robotic spacecraft onto the Moon’s surface, beginning a new era of ongoing commercial lunar exploration and
discovery, unlocking the immense potential of the Moon’s valuable resources.
Moon Express received the green light for pursuing its 2017 lunar mission following
in depth consultations with the FAA, the White House, the State Department,
NASA and other federal agencies.

Up until now all commercial companies have been limited to operations in
Earth’s orbit, and only governments have sent missions to other worlds.
With this landmark ruling, Moon Express has become the first private company
approved to literally go out of this world as a pioneer of commercial space missions beyond
Earth orbit. The federal interagency approval of the Moon Express 2017 lunar mission
establishes an important precedent for the private sector to engage in peaceful space
exploration, bringing with it monumental implications for the advancement
of technology, science, research, and development, as well as commercial
ventures that expand Earth’s economic sphere.

Google X Prize.
http://lunar.xprize.org/teams/moon-express

Team Moon Express has won two Milestone Prizes: the Landing Prize ($1 million), and the Imaging Prize ($250,000), for a total of $1.25 million in prize winnings.

Moon Express is one of only two teams in the Google Lunar XPRIZE competition with a verified launch contract for its 2017 lunar mission. In October 2015, Moon Express announced that it had signed the worlds’ first multi-mission launch contract with Rocket Lab USA for 3 lunar missions between 2017 and 2020.

“We believe that it’s critical for humanity to become a multi-world species, and that our sister world, the Moon, is an eighth continent holding vast resources than can help us enrich and secure our future.”

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Date: 5/08/2016 09:10:01
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935877
Subject: re: Moon Express?

it’s going to be a very, very long time before any economic gain is derived from resources on the moon.

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Date: 5/08/2016 09:26:05
From: dv
ID: 935878
Subject: re: Moon Express?

But not that long in geological terms.

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Date: 5/08/2016 09:32:08
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935880
Subject: re: Moon Express?

dv said:


But not that long in geological terms.

I can see it now…

So Mr Investment Banker I have this project I’d like you to invest in…

Sure, where are you likely to start producing?

In about 35 million years time

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:10:49
From: Cymek
ID: 935886
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Do you need permission as a private citizen to send something/someone’s to the moon.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:14:29
From: dv
ID: 935888
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


Do you need permission as a private citizen to send something/someone’s to the moon.

You would need permission to launch anything through controlled airspace. Perhaps a sealaunch from international waters would require no permission.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:14:50
From: Cymek
ID: 935889
Subject: re: Moon Express?

What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:17:43
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935891
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

there are currently no economically extractable mineral resources on the moon, nor is there likely to be for a very, very long time…

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:17:51
From: Cymek
ID: 935892
Subject: re: Moon Express?

dv said:


Cymek said:

Do you need permission as a private citizen to send something/someone’s to the moon.

You would need permission to launch anything through controlled airspace. Perhaps a sealaunch from international waters would require no permission.

So it’s more just launching something from controlled airspace that the actual destination itself

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:20:05
From: dv
ID: 935893
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

At the moment there is no huge market for Helium 3. It is expensive, but you could not sell much of it.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:20:44
From: Cymek
ID: 935895
Subject: re: Moon Express?

diddly-squat said:


Cymek said:

What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

there are currently no economically extractable mineral resources on the moon, nor is there likely to be for a very, very long time…

It would make a lot more sense to mine the moon so you can live on the moon and the economics of returning it to Earth wouldn’t apply. I wonder which is more cost effective to prefabricate everything (or most of it anyway) on Earth or in orbit and take it to the moon or make the bulk of it on the moon using mined materials

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:21:59
From: Cymek
ID: 935896
Subject: re: Moon Express?

dv said:


Cymek said:

What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

At the moment there is no huge market for Helium 3. It is expensive, but you could not sell much of it.

The biggest need seems to be in fusion reactions which are around 50 years away for commercial use.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:28:16
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935897
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

there are currently no economically extractable mineral resources on the moon, nor is there likely to be for a very, very long time…

It would make a lot more sense to mine the moon so you can live on the moon and the economics of returning it to Earth wouldn’t apply. I wonder which is more cost effective to prefabricate everything (or most of it anyway) on Earth or in orbit and take it to the moon or make the bulk of it on the moon using mined materials

I think in this instance the sorts of materials you would likely be looking for would be things like water… harvesting water on the moon would be useful on many levels.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:36:24
From: dv
ID: 935898
Subject: re: Moon Express?

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:39:28
From: Cymek
ID: 935900
Subject: re: Moon Express?

dv said:


The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

The whole ball game would change if profit wasn’t the driving factor and it was because we could do it and then use whatever mined to continually expand the operation of space mining and colonisation.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:41:36
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935902
Subject: re: Moon Express?

dv said:


The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

I think artificial synthesis would come into play before extraction for near earth objects.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:44:47
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935903
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


dv said:

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

The whole ball game would change if profit wasn’t the driving factor and it was because we could do it and then use whatever mined to continually expand the operation of space mining and colonisation.

one of the primary problems with this is that many minerals processing and smelting technologies required not only large amounts of energy, (which in of itself is a solvable problem) but also require gravity. As a result there are a huge amount of off world infrastructure required to make this a reality.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:45:17
From: dv
ID: 935904
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


dv said:

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

The whole ball game would change if profit wasn’t the driving factor and it was because we could do it and then use whatever mined to continually expand the operation of space mining and colonisation.

I don’t think there is any point of mass colonisation of the moon, though I suppose a small base could be useful for supporting scientific investigation.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:45:50
From: dv
ID: 935905
Subject: re: Moon Express?

diddly-squat said:


dv said:

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

I think artificial synthesis would come into play before extraction for near earth objects.

Explain your point in greater detail, please, giving examples where possible.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:49:25
From: Cymek
ID: 935907
Subject: re: Moon Express?

diddly-squat said:


Cymek said:

dv said:

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

The whole ball game would change if profit wasn’t the driving factor and it was because we could do it and then use whatever mined to continually expand the operation of space mining and colonisation.

one of the primary problems with this is that many minerals processing and smelting technologies required not only large amounts of energy, (which in of itself is a solvable problem) but also require gravity. As a result there are a huge amount of off world infrastructure required to make this a reality.

Yes I was wondering if it could be adapted to work in microgravity, its not like it could easily be tested either.

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:50:25
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935908
Subject: re: Moon Express?

dv said:


diddly-squat said:

dv said:

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

I think artificial synthesis would come into play before extraction for near earth objects.

Explain your point in greater detail, please, giving examples where possible.

some of the lighter platinum group elements are synthesised as ‘by-products’ of nuclear fission

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Date: 5/08/2016 10:52:11
From: diddly-squat
ID: 935909
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Then there is this…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5GPWJPLcHg

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:06:34
From: dv
ID: 935946
Subject: re: Moon Express?

diddly-squat said:


dv said:

diddly-squat said:

I think artificial synthesis would come into play before extraction for near earth objects.

Explain your point in greater detail, please, giving examples where possible.

some of the lighter platinum group elements are synthesised as ‘by-products’ of nuclear fission

Yeah but that’s not going to, by itself, be a profitable exercise because of the low amounts. It isn’t used now because the technology to extract it from the waste doesn’t exist: in that regard it is on the same footing as space mining.

What would be required to retrieve PGEs from a NEA?

There is currently about a 220 tonne per year market for platinum. Its price is in the vicinity of 1100 USD/troz. I suppose we can expect that to trend up over the coming decade, but lets say that someone in forty years time has a plan to mine enough platinum to fulfill 30% of the market, 66 tonnes per annum, and that this extra amount keeps prices at their 2016 level. Suppose the plant is expected to operate for, oh, thirty years. Gross revenue, thus, would be about 70 billion USD2016.

Set aside for one moment the mining and refining aspect, we’ll return to that. Let’s start from the outside and work in, and say that we have ingots of platinum sitting on the surface of a NEA. There are various mission schemes ISRU but I willassume that the rocketry and fuel all has to come from earth (ie that there is no in situ manufacture of components or fuel). So we need to launch to LEO, trans-NEA, land, return. After LEO, this is about an 8km/s delta-v for the easiest targets. Using conventional ion rockets available today and common hardware ratios (and assuming you use atmospheric breaking at earth duh) bringing a tonne of platinum to earth would mean bringing about 5 tonnes of hardware to LEO.

The Falcon Heavy will shortly be able to take stuff 55000 kg to LEO at around $2700 per tonne. For $150 million USD2016 you can launch enough hardware to retrieve 11 tonnes of platinum from a NEA, which currently sells at $387 million USD2016. Because platinum is dense, the amount of dry hardware to be expended per mission would be small, and again using common ratios the expended hardware per mission might cost something like $50-100 million USD2016 (not counting development costs).

This basic maths is what makes me think that such an enterprise could exist in my life time.

Even if we make the pessimistic assumption that launch prices do not go down further, these numbers suggest that gross revenue minus launch and retrieval costs (sans development costs) would be around 29 billion USD2016. Some of it can be off the shelf already.

Also, the design phase occurs before the money starts coming in: We need to allow for the cost of finance. In order for that 29 billion USD2016 over 30 years to be worth it, the cost initially would have to be under 14 billion USD2016.

The retrieval hardware would be not fundamentally require any breakthroughs in technology: it shouldn’t cost more than a couple of billion to design.

So the question is, could someone twenty years from now design, build, deliver and install an extraterrestrial mining and refining plant for 12 billion USD2016?

Answer, I don’t know. There shouldn’t be anything fundamentally brainbending about it, it is a “mere” engineering problem. It don’t require any fundamental changes to energy, the economy or technology. As you note, the lack of gravitation is an issue but not something that requires unforeseen technological leaps: you would need to drill in to keep your plant in place, and you’d need to have some kind of rotating assembly to simulate gravity for sorting by density etc.
But forty years is a long time. Design and manufacture and testing could be so automated that costs are negligible.

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:10:55
From: wookiemeister
ID: 935950
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

plain old moon rock to be sold as souvenirs for lots of money

how many people do you know with their own piece of moon rock?

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:14:44
From: Tamb
ID: 935957
Subject: re: Moon Express?

wookiemeister said:


Cymek said:

What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

plain old moon rock to be sold as souvenirs for lots of money

how many people do you know with their own piece of moon rock?


I have an alleged piece of the Great Wall

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:16:26
From: wookiemeister
ID: 935961
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Tamb said:


wookiemeister said:

Cymek said:

What would be the most economical and useful substance to mine on the moon, Helium 3 perhaps

plain old moon rock to be sold as souvenirs for lots of money

how many people do you know with their own piece of moon rock?


I have an alleged piece of the Great Wall


i’ve got john the baptist’s little finger

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:18:18
From: Tamb
ID: 935964
Subject: re: Moon Express?

wookiemeister said:


Tamb said:

wookiemeister said:

plain old moon rock to be sold as souvenirs for lots of money

how many people do you know with their own piece of moon rock?


I have an alleged piece of the Great Wall


i’ve got john the baptist’s little finger


Geez, that bloke had a lot of fingers!

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:20:10
From: wookiemeister
ID: 935968
Subject: re: Moon Express?

you could probably find someone willing to pay 50 million to pay for a flight to go into lunar orbit for a few days

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:22:49
From: wookiemeister
ID: 935973
Subject: re: Moon Express?

in whih case a small space shuttle aircraft could be better

no separation required, the aircraft flies back and comes through the atmosphere

it wouldnt need to be that big

you’d pack it with HDPE for shielding

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:23:21
From: Cymek
ID: 935975
Subject: re: Moon Express?

The USA gifted moons rocks to various people and nations and got quite annoyed (which is understandable) when they were sold

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:24:11
From: wookiemeister
ID: 935976
Subject: re: Moon Express?

two man crew

pilot and tourist

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Date: 5/08/2016 12:27:29
From: wookiemeister
ID: 935978
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


The USA gifted moons rocks to various people and nations and got quite annoyed (which is understandable) when they were sold

i’ve seen some, we had an astronomy group at school and someone the RE teacher who ran the club (all 4 of us i believe) knew someone who could lay hands on the merchandise.

the rocks were fairly small and encased completely in plastic

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Date: 5/08/2016 15:22:02
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 936060
Subject: re: Moon Express?

Cymek said:


diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

dv said:

The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

OTOH I would not fall completely off my chair if, sometime before I die, it becomes possible to bring platinum group metals from a near earth asteroid to market on earth at a profit. It involves some optimistic assumptions but it is in the ballpark of not being an insane idea.

The whole ball game would change if profit wasn’t the driving factor and it was because we could do it and then use whatever mined to continually expand the operation of space mining and colonisation.

one of the primary problems with this is that many minerals processing and smelting technologies required not only large amounts of energy, (which in of itself is a solvable problem) but also require gravity. As a result there are a huge amount of off world infrastructure required to make this a reality.

Yes I was wondering if it could be adapted to work in microgravity, its not like it could easily be tested either.

That’s four very good points. Taking each in turn:

> The moon just doesn’t have anything valuable enough to support a commercial mining operation in the foreseeable future.

True. Moon rocks are almost solely basalt and breccia, both common on Earth. The Moon is deficient in heavy elements, which are the ones that tend to be most valuable.

> The whole ball game would change if profit wasn’t the driving factor

Yes. Such as the need to survive because parts of Earth were becoming uninhabitable.

> many minerals processing and smelting technologies required not only large amounts of energy, (which in of itself is a solvable problem) but also require gravity

I hadn’t thought of that, but you’re right. The alternative to gravity is of course centrifuge, but that is more energy expensive.

Gravity is used in such processes as the separation of slag from steel, separation of heavy minerals such as mineral sands and gold, It’s used in mixing of plastics (archimedes screw) and conveying by conveyer belt, as well as in most casting operations.

On the other hand, lower gravity could be an advantage in getting more uniform alloys. Conveyor belts on the Moon could carry more load. Structures could be and would have to be lighter. Lower gravity helps with gravity-limited operations such a radio telescope antenna deflection, and precision optics.

> I was wondering if it could be adapted to work in microgravity, its not like it could easily be tested either.

The ISS has now had a lot of practice in microgravity manufacturing. A key use is in creating alloys where one component has a much lower density than another, they can’t be made on Earth because gravity separates out the components before the alloy has time to form.

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Date: 6/08/2016 14:25:52
From: wookiemeister
ID: 936649
Subject: re: Moon Express?

http://www.n-prize.com/

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