Date: 9/08/2016 15:01:15
From: dv
ID: 937814
Subject: Male line descent example

The Japanese Imperial Throne follows strict male line inheritance.

But
a) the Royal families keep having mostly girls and
b) they don’t bother having many kids.

0Mutsuhito (born 1852) is Japan’s analogue to Empress Sophia. He had four daughters and one son, Yoshihito.

1Yoshihito did have four sons as follows:

11Hirohito had five daughters and two sons.
His son 111Akihito is the current Emperor and has two sons and one daughter. Akihito’s son 1111Naruhito is in fact heir apparent to the throne. He married Masako and after eight years of married when Masako was 37, she gave birth to a girl, Aiko, and had no more children (she is now 52 and not likely to have more children.) This led to considerable controversy in Japan and consideration of the idea of changing the constitution to allow an Empress to rule or broaden the scope of the Royal family. Akihito’s other son 1112Fumihito looked to be heading the same way as he and his wife had had two daughters by the time she was 39, but when she was 40 years old she gave birth to a son 11121Hisahito who is now ten years old. This 11th hour birth is what forestalled constitutional change.
Hirohito’s other son, Masuhito, is still alive at 80 years old and has no children.

12Yasuhito had no children.

13Nubihito also had no children.

14Takahito is still alive at 100 years old, and has two daughters and three sons.
His eldest son 141Tomohito had two daughters, no sons.
His second son 142Yoshito had no children.
His third son 143Norihito had three daughters, no sons.

This is quite a remarkable outcome, that after FIVE generations a dynasty has only one male-line heir likely to continue the line, and even that was a close run thing. You’d think that people in a dynasty with this kind of inheritance would just keep fucking until they had sons galore, but all the lines are clogged by people with no children or people with daughters only.

The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form), and the key ancestor (Electress Sophia) was born in 1630, so there are thousands of potential heir-producers now (including my lady love Karin Vogel).
But by comparison, after five generations Sophia had produced a shit-ton of heirs even if we restrict it to male-line descent.

It makes one reflect on how precarious Y-DNA descent is and why the haplogroups winnow so rapidly. Of the people alive today, only a few hundred will have male line descendants alive a thousand years hence.

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:07:27
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 937849
Subject: re: Male line descent example

Earlier today I didn’t even know what a haplogroup was, let alone that they winnow rapidly.

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:09:42
From: AwesomeO
ID: 937852
Subject: re: Male line descent example

I believe it is the Jews and probably a few other groups that trace ancestry through the female line, unlike a bloke there is no doubting of the true maternity.

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:10:48
From: dv
ID: 937854
Subject: re: Male line descent example

The Rev Dodgson said:


Earlier today I didn’t even know what a haplogroup was, let alone that they winnow rapidly.

How much earlier?

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:13:21
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 937857
Subject: re: Male line descent example

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Earlier today I didn’t even know what a haplogroup was, let alone that they winnow rapidly.

How much earlier?

Up to about 1/2 an hour ago.

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:13:55
From: dv
ID: 937858
Subject: re: Male line descent example

AwesomeO said:


I believe it is the Jews and probably a few other groups that trace ancestry through the female line, unlike a bloke there is no doubting of the true maternity.

Kind of weird that they traced Jesus’s ancestry paternity through Joseph, even though he wasn’t related to him.

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:14:49
From: dv
ID: 937860
Subject: re: Male line descent example

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Earlier today I didn’t even know what a haplogroup was, let alone that they winnow rapidly.

How much earlier?

Up to about 1/2 an hour ago.

That’s quite a coincidence.

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:24:22
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 937863
Subject: re: Male line descent example

dv said:


AwesomeO said:

I believe it is the Jews and probably a few other groups that trace ancestry through the female line, unlike a bloke there is no doubting of the true maternity.

Kind of weird that they traced Jesus’s ancestry paternity through Joseph, even though he wasn’t related to him.

rushes off to Ray Comfort forum to tell Peat and Droppy

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Date: 9/08/2016 16:56:48
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 937872
Subject: re: Male line descent example

I’m not all that fond of the Japanese Imperial Throne. Because of its behaviour in the early and later parts of WWII. In the later part it was quite happy to sell out the Japanese people in return for retention of the throne. And the male line descent held back contraception in Japan for many decades, until Viagra came along, which they approved immediately.

It’s skewed me against hereditary monarchies in general. Including British and Danish.

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

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Date: 9/08/2016 17:00:58
From: Cymek
ID: 937873
Subject: re: Male line descent example

mollwollfumble said:


I’m not all that fond of the Japanese Imperial Throne. Because of its behaviour in the early and later parts of WWII. In the later part it was quite happy to sell out the Japanese people in return for retention of the throne. And the male line descent held back contraception in Japan for many decades, until Viagra came along, which they approved immediately.

It’s skewed me against hereditary monarchies in general. Including British and Danish.

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

Royalty is still a position of privilege that really doesn’t have a place in our modern world

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Date: 9/08/2016 17:03:02
From: AwesomeO
ID: 937874
Subject: re: Male line descent example

Cymek said:


mollwollfumble said:

I’m not all that fond of the Japanese Imperial Throne. Because of its behaviour in the early and later parts of WWII. In the later part it was quite happy to sell out the Japanese people in return for retention of the throne. And the male line descent held back contraception in Japan for many decades, until Viagra came along, which they approved immediately.

It’s skewed me against hereditary monarchies in general. Including British and Danish.

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

Royalty is still a position of privilege that really doesn’t have a place in our modern world

Even if a country wants to retain royalty for cultural reasons?

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Date: 9/08/2016 17:06:11
From: Cymek
ID: 937875
Subject: re: Male line descent example

AwesomeO said:


Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m not all that fond of the Japanese Imperial Throne. Because of its behaviour in the early and later parts of WWII. In the later part it was quite happy to sell out the Japanese people in return for retention of the throne. And the male line descent held back contraception in Japan for many decades, until Viagra came along, which they approved immediately.

It’s skewed me against hereditary monarchies in general. Including British and Danish.

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

Royalty is still a position of privilege that really doesn’t have a place in our modern world

Even if a country wants to retain royalty for cultural reasons?

That’s their business really, I just don’t think it’s necessary

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Date: 9/08/2016 17:07:34
From: furious
ID: 937876
Subject: re: Male line descent example

They should do it like on Naboo where they elect 16 year old girls to be queen for a couple of terms…

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Date: 9/08/2016 17:12:30
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 937878
Subject: re: Male line descent example

The Rev Dodgson said:


Earlier today I didn’t even know what a haplogroup was, let alone that they winnow rapidly.

Female and male haplogroups winnow at about the same rate, extrapolating from http://www.nature.com/news/genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not-live-too-far-apart-in-time-1.13478

I conclude that no Jews can claim a female line of descent.

The Torah doesn’t mention this anyway.

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Date: 9/08/2016 17:55:43
From: sibeen
ID: 937884
Subject: re: Male line descent example

mollwollfumble said:

I conclude that no Jews can claim a female line of descent.

Yahweh, that’s a bit strong. I suspect that 99.99999999999999999999999999% of humanity can claim a female line of descent.

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Date: 9/08/2016 19:08:53
From: dv
ID: 937912
Subject: re: Male line descent example

mollwollfumble said:

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

No.
The change occurred in 2015.

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Date: 9/08/2016 19:11:33
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 937913
Subject: re: Male line descent example

dv said:


mollwollfumble said:

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

No.
The change occurred in 2015.

where are we going to find a gender neutral monarch though????

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Date: 9/08/2016 19:13:39
From: dv
ID: 937914
Subject: re: Male line descent example

ChrispenEvan said:


dv said:

mollwollfumble said:

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

No.
The change occurred in 2015.

where are we going to find a gender neutral monarch though????

not in the census

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Date: 9/08/2016 19:18:18
From: stumpy_seahorse
ID: 937915
Subject: re: Male line descent example

ChrispenEvan said:


dv said:

mollwollfumble said:

> The British monarch has of course operated on male-*preference* inheritance wherein you will resort to female monarchs if there are no sons (but this has recently changed to a gender neutral form).

Gender neutral form?! You’re kidding!?

No.
The change occurred in 2015.

where are we going to find a gender neutral monarch though????

Reply Quote

Date: 9/08/2016 20:59:27
From: dv
ID: 938059
Subject: re: Male line descent example

Media observers refer to the current royal family as ‘The House of Windsor’ but the three generations of current royal heirs will probably be known in the future as the Mountbatten dynasty:

Charles, Prince of Wales and heir apparent (b. 1948)
Prince William, Duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
Prince George of Cambridge (b. 2013)
All these Mountbatten heirs trace their Y-DNA from Prince Philip Mountbatten, Duke of Edinburgh (b. 1921 Greece). Prince Philip descends maternally from Queen Victoria (1819-1901) and Prince Louis of Battenberg (1854-1921). Phillip’s Y-DNA lineage, however, is traced to King Christian III of Denmark (1503-1559) and further back to the medieval House of Oldenburg: John II of Oldenburg, Germany (1272-1301).

House of Oldenburg. The House of Oldenburg is one of Europe’s most prolific lineages with branches that include:

the current King Harald V of Norway (b. 1937)
the current Queen Margarethe II of Denmark (b. 1940)
Prince George Oldenburg of Denmark (1653-1708), husband of British Queen Anne (1665-1714)
Nicholas II of Russia (1868-1918), the last Romanov Tsar2
Because Prince Philip is also a matrilineal cousin to Tsar Nicholas II’s wife, he should have both Y-DNA and MtDNA matches for members of the last Tsar’s family. When remains thought to belong to that family were discovered in Russia, Philip personally contributed a DNA sample which helped verify their authenticity.1

Figure 2 illustrates how Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia are patrilineal 11th cousins, once removed with a known TMRCA of 450 years.16 In terms of the potential difference in their STR allele values, their relationship is 26 DNA generations apart (26 × 17 alleles = 442 potential mutation events). With an average Y-STR mutation rate of 0.0024, we would expect to see only a single allele difference between the two men over 17 markers.19

Based on the Y-STR results released in the Romanov studies, the Mountbatten Y-DNA signature can be inferred from the Tsar’s results shown in Figure 3.18 This Y-DNA signature was classified as part of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) cluster within haplogroup R1b. Unfortunately, with only 17 STR values published, we can only make a low resolution assessment. For this paper, a comparison was made between the Tsar’s results and the latest modal values for R1b-L2121 and R1b-U10622 but no clear distinction was found. The precision of the Mountbatten / Oldenburg lineage could be improved with a new round of SNP testing and publication of the existing samples from Prince Philip and living Romanov descendants.

http://www.surnamedna.com/?articles=y-dna-of-the-british-monarchy

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Date: 9/08/2016 21:12:43
From: sibeen
ID: 938082
Subject: re: Male line descent example

>Figure 2 illustrates how Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia are patrilineal 11th cousins, once removed >

That close, eh.

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Date: 9/08/2016 21:19:26
From: dv
ID: 938088
Subject: re: Male line descent example

sibeen said:


>Figure 2 illustrates how Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia are patrilineal 11th cousins, once removed >

That close, eh.

Among reg’lah cousins, it is not that close, but patrilineal 11th cousins have very similar Y-DNA.

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Date: 9/08/2016 21:21:45
From: AwesomeO
ID: 938096
Subject: re: Male line descent example

dv said:


sibeen said:

>Figure 2 illustrates how Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia are patrilineal 11th cousins, once removed >

That close, eh.

Among reg’lah cousins, it is not that close, but patrilineal 11th cousins have very similar Y-DNA.

Tsar Nicholas and KIng George were dead ringers.

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Date: 11/08/2016 11:48:03
From: Divine Angel
ID: 938845
Subject: re: Male line descent example

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/wealth/meet-the-new-partyloving-duke-of-westminster-now-britains-third-richest-man-aged-just-25/news-story/15bbfa2414811b95b4ec05240df76bcb

Sucks to be a royal girl, although the English royal family did indeed change the rules before Prince George’s birth.

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Date: 12/08/2016 16:45:54
From: dv
ID: 939537
Subject: re: Male line descent example

I took a look at how many male line descendants of George I are still kicking around. Turns out there are 8 of them, all German.

George II had ten kids, and his eldest (Frederick Prince of Wales) had eight kids, and HIS heir (George III) had 15 kids, which you’d think would be enough to make sure of succession.

George III’s son William (George I’s great grandson) had about a dozen illegitimate kids through his long term de facto, not caring a whit about succession because he had two older brothers. But his eldest brother’s only child (Charlotte) died young, and his second eldest brother died without any children, so the onus was rather on William to produce heirs (illegitimate children not being heirs). He and his de facto split up, but he took care of and acknowledged his little bastards. He remarried to someone suitable and had two short lived daughters.

Those bastards have many descendants today, including notables such as David Cameron. The Earls of Munster are from that line.

Surprisingly, there are no male-line descendants alive among any of those illegitimate children, or any of the other children of illicit liaisons by various Georges and Fredericks of that era. The Earldom of Munster died with the 7th Earl, Anthony Charles FitzClarence, in 2000. Anthony did have daughters but no sons, and English Noble titles pass in a strictly Salic fashion.

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