Date: 2/09/2016 09:00:15
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 949930
Subject: Quantum Encryption

As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

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Date: 2/09/2016 09:17:44
From: roughbarked
ID: 949936
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?


signatures?

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Date: 2/09/2016 13:58:14
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 950023
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?


signatures?

How does that work?

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Date: 2/09/2016 14:06:01
From: poikilotherm
ID: 950028
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

1. Change the channel.

2. NFI

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Date: 2/09/2016 14:35:34
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 950037
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

poikilotherm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

1. Change the channel.

2. NFI

So the entangled particles are linked to a particular channel are they?

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:10:23
From: poikilotherm
ID: 950048
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


poikilotherm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

1. Change the channel.

2. NFI

So the entangled particles are linked to a particular channel are they?

More seriously, I don’t think someone listening in stops the transmission, why would it?

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:15:05
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 950051
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

This site on Quantum Cryptography has some information

http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/quantum-cryptography

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:20:34
From: dv
ID: 950053
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

Physical security measures

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:20:44
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 950055
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

poikilotherm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

1. Change the channel.

2. NFI

So the entangled particles are linked to a particular channel are they?

More seriously, I don’t think someone listening in stops the transmission, why would it?

Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:22:08
From: dv
ID: 950056
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


poikilotherm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So the entangled particles are linked to a particular channel are they?

More seriously, I don’t think someone listening in stops the transmission, why would it?

Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

I haven’t read the NS article but real world QKD is not quite as esoteric as that (and for that matter does not involve satellites).

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:23:32
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 950059
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

As I understand it, quantum encryption doesn’t actually encrypt anything, it just detects if anyone else is listening, and stops transmitting if they are.

I have two questions.

1. What is to stop anyone from listening all the time, thus putting the messaging satellite permanently out of action?
2. How do hey differentiate between someone listening and other random interactions between the entangled particles and the rest of the Universe?

Physical security measures

more detail?

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:24:38
From: poikilotherm
ID: 950061
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

More seriously, I don’t think someone listening in stops the transmission, why would it?

Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

I haven’t read the NS article but real world QKD is not quite as esoteric as that (and for that matter does not involve satellites).

It does now, apparently the Chinese have one that works.

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:25:14
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 950062
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

More seriously, I don’t think someone listening in stops the transmission, why would it?

Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

I haven’t read the NS article but real world QKD is not quite as esoteric as that (and for that matter does not involve satellites).

The article was about the proposed first satellite use of the system, but it gave the impression that the principle was the same for any quantum encryption system.

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:27:39
From: dv
ID: 950066
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

poikilotherm said:


dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

I haven’t read the NS article but real world QKD is not quite as esoteric as that (and for that matter does not involve satellites).

It does now, apparently the Chinese have one that works.

Amazing what they can do these days!! I’ll read up and come back.

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Date: 2/09/2016 15:30:33
From: dv
ID: 950069
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

Recently, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau went viral after explaning quantum computing while announcing USD$39 million in funding for the subject, while a week later Australia’s Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull opened a new quantum computing lab, saying: “this is not just a great position for Australia to be in, but a superposition.”
—-

Ha ha

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Date: 2/09/2016 16:25:05
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 950100
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

dv said:


Recently, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau went viral after explaning quantum computing while announcing USD$39 million in funding for the subject, while a week later Australia’s Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull opened a new quantum computing lab, saying: “this is not just a great position for Australia to be in, but a superposition.”
—-

Ha ha

Certainly beats his predecessor’s pronouncements on the subject of suppositories.

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Date: 2/09/2016 17:49:04
From: KJW
ID: 950129
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

The Rev Dodgson said:


Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

In simple terms, the two-particle wavefunction is collapsed by an eavesdropper, and by determining whether or not the wavefunction has collapsed, the presence of an eavesdropper can be revealed.

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Date: 2/09/2016 19:31:59
From: KJW
ID: 950189
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

KJW said:


In simple terms, the two-particle wavefunction is collapsed by an eavesdropper, and by determining whether or not the wavefunction has collapsed, the presence of an eavesdropper can be revealed.

I’m guessing that this is determined by performing some form of Bell test experiment.

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Date: 2/09/2016 19:36:20
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 950191
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

KJW said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Well as New Scientist and I understand it (and we may well be both completely wrong), the satellite sends of a pair of entangled particles, and by comparing their measurements on these particles the two people wanting to communicate can tell if anyone else is listening in or not, but what happens exactly if there is an eavesdropper, I’m not sure.

In simple terms, the two-particle wavefunction is collapsed by an eavesdropper, and by determining whether or not the wavefunction has collapsed, the presence of an eavesdropper can be revealed.

Yes. As Rev D pointed out in the original post, if an eavesdropper is present then the message is blocked. An encryption system that allows messages to be easily blocked doesn’t seem to be much use. I know no more than Rev D and KJW on this one. Perhaps if I read up on the technical literature … I’ll start with CN’s link.

Already there is a problem because high bandwidth data is traditionally sent using methods where the polarisation is used for multiplexing, so to send a secure signal you have to switch off some of the multiplexing, limiting bandwidth. Possible with a dedicated 1 to 1 optical fibre line but not on general communications networks.

There’s also the problem that it is now possible to devise schemes to read a secured data line by interfering just enough with the signal to read it without destroying the entanglement – so it’s not completely safe against eavesdropping. A particular method I have in mind is to read the photon my measuring the force on a clear block of glass placed in the path of the signal – remember the recent thread about reading the pressure exerted by light using an extremely accurate force gauge.

In a thought experiment, Suppose for instance you eavesdrop by reading out from second optical fibre placed parallel to the optical fibre containing the message – the signal leakage is going to occur whether or not the second optical fibre is used to eavesdrop. Quantum encryption may cover that possibility, but I can’t see how it can tell if there was a genuine eavesdropper or just a normal inevitable signal loss.

“Bob measures some photons correctly and others incorrectly. At this point, Alice and Bob establish a channel of communication that is insecure – that is, other people can listen in. Alice then proceeds to advise Bob as to which polarizer she used to send each photon bit – but not how she polarized each photon. So she could say that photon number 8597 (theoretically) was sent using the rectilinear scheme, but she will not say whether she sent an UP/DOWN or LEFT/RIGHT. Bob then confirms if he used the correct polarizer to receive each particular photon. Alice and Bob then discard all the photon measurements that he used the wrong polarizer to check. What they have, is, on average, a sequence of 0s and 1s that is half the length of the original transmission.”

“Now, suppose we have an eavesdropper, Eve, … This is useless to Eve, as half the time she used the wrong detector and will misinterpret some of the photons that will form that final key, rendering it useless.”

Not useless. A key with half the elements missing could be cracked by computer later, for example by trial and error.

“To discover Eve’s nefarious doings, they must perform the above procedures, with which they will arrive at an identical key sequence of 0s and 1s – unless someone has been eavesdropping, whereupon there will be some discrepancies.”

Or unless there are natural faults somewhere along the line, such as the inevitable signal leakage out of the optical fibre.

To my small brain, it seems to be a good system so long as the optical fibre cable remains unknown to any enemy. Once the cable is known, the use of a sharp pair of scissors could result in a permanent loss of communication.

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Date: 2/09/2016 19:49:07
From: KJW
ID: 950209
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

mollwollfumble said:


There’s also the problem that it is now possible to devise schemes to read a secured data line by interfering just enough with the signal to read it without destroying the entanglement – so it’s not completely safe against eavesdropping. A particular method I have in mind is to read the photon my measuring the force on a clear block of glass placed in the path of the signal – remember the recent thread about reading the pressure exerted by light using an extremely accurate force gauge.

It should be noted that it is the information gained from a measurement, not any particular method of measurement that destroys the entanglement. However, there are measurements known as “weak measurements” which can perform somewhat of a measurement (but not a full measurement) without destroying the quantum state.

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Date: 2/09/2016 20:10:27
From: Ian
ID: 950246
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

KJW said:


mollwollfumble said:

There’s also the problem that it is now possible to devise schemes to read a secured data line by interfering just enough with the signal to read it without destroying the entanglement – so it’s not completely safe against eavesdropping. A particular method I have in mind is to read the photon my measuring the force on a clear block of glass placed in the path of the signal – remember the recent thread about reading the pressure exerted by light using an extremely accurate force gauge.

It should be noted that it is the information gained from a measurement, not any particular method of measurement that destroys the entanglement. However, there are measurements known as “weak measurements” which can perform somewhat of a measurement (but not a full measurement) without destroying the quantum state.

So Schrodinger’s cat is now simultaneously dead, alive and a bit crook.
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Date: 2/09/2016 20:15:35
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 950249
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

Ian said:


KJW said:

mollwollfumble said:

There’s also the problem that it is now possible to devise schemes to read a secured data line by interfering just enough with the signal to read it without destroying the entanglement – so it’s not completely safe against eavesdropping. A particular method I have in mind is to read the photon my measuring the force on a clear block of glass placed in the path of the signal – remember the recent thread about reading the pressure exerted by light using an extremely accurate force gauge.

It should be noted that it is the information gained from a measurement, not any particular method of measurement that destroys the entanglement. However, there are measurements known as “weak measurements” which can perform somewhat of a measurement (but not a full measurement) without destroying the quantum state.

So Schrodinger’s cat is now simultaneously dead, alive and a bit crook.

all we know it is in a state…

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Date: 2/09/2016 20:30:47
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 950277
Subject: re: Quantum Encryption

> So Schrodinger’s cat is now simultaneously dead, alive and a bit crook.

A superb Schroedinger situation summary. :-)

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