Does an understanding of another language bring a better understanding of English and if so, is it ever too late to gain that level of understanding?

Here’s the background …

It is often claimed that children of immigrants do well in life.

I always thought that these children inherit the genetics to be more driven (to make necessary change), but also are raised in an environment where, for various reasons, improvement and success are sought.

However, these children are the generation most likely to be bilingual and in my experience, most of the more intelligent students at my school were (bilingual). The less/least intelligent students that I can remember were all English-only speakers, with some being children of immigrants from English-speaking countries.

A better understanding of English will bring improvements in many other subjects. If a school-aged student is mediocre in (the comprehension of) English, would the learning of a second language be beneficial?

Speedy said:

Does an understanding of another language bring a better understanding of English … ?

Probably not, both my parents a bilingual, and one of my parents understanding of English & grammar is terrible.

poikilotherm said:

Speedy said:

Does an understanding of another language bring a better understanding of English … ?

Probably not, both my parents a bilingual, and one of my parents understanding of English & grammar is terrible.

Is English their primary language?

poikilotherm said:

Speedy said:

Does an understanding of another language bring a better understanding of English … ?

Probably not, both my parents a bilingual, and one of my parents understanding of English & grammar is terrible.

Far too many variables to be able to comment.

Anecdote alert.

I grew up speaking English. I was born here, as were my parents and most of my grandparents. I have always been good at spelling and grammar and putting together meaning in English. I learnt Indonesian, French and German at school, doing German for all six years of High School. I definitely feel that learning the other languages, and their grammar rules, was beneficial to my English as well. And one of our English teachers taught us Latin roots. That was also very, very useful, as well as being interesting.

Speedy said:

poikilotherm said:

Speedy said:

Does an understanding of another language bring a better understanding of English … ?

Probably not, both my parents a bilingual, and one of my parents understanding of English & grammar is terrible.

Is English their primary language?

It is now.

buffy said:

Anecdote alert.

I grew up speaking English. I was born here, as were my parents and most of my grandparents. I have always been good at spelling and grammar and putting together meaning in English. I learnt Indonesian, French and German at school, doing German for all six years of High School. I definitely feel that learning the other languages, and their grammar rules, was beneficial to my English as well. And one of our English teachers taught us Latin roots. That was also very, very useful, as well as being interesting.

Latin roots!

Yes. Although it may not appear that way from my typing here on the forum, I did excel in English at school (usually being among the top 3%). We were not taught about Latin roots, but the understanding of word origin was often already there. I credit having had a good understanding of another language, as well as being overly inquisitive about word part meanings.

Surprisingly, I did very poorly in languages in high school (year 7). We did German, Italian and French (back in the days when there were only 3 terms in a school year).

I liked the order of German. I liked Indonesian, but I had to choose one and at the time German was more likely to be useful to a science oriented person (1972). I didn’t like French much. Although now I can listen to it and it sounds lyrical. I just can’t understand any of it.

When we started watching The Eagle some years ago, I found the Danish very clipped. I don’t understand that language at all, but I did get my ear attuned eventually and it started to sound “normal”.

Another anecdote. Mr buffy was looked after by a Dutch lady when he was very small while his mother worked. Apparently he learnt some Dutch before he learned English. He has no Dutch at all now and I think had forgotten it before he got to school. But he can pick a Dutch speaker in a crowd from a great distance, presumably by the intonations or something.

Oh, and the teacher who thought Latin roots was a good idea? An American exchange teacher. She was a very, very good teacher.

buffy said:

I liked the order of German. I liked Indonesian, but I had to choose one and at the time German was more likely to be useful to a science oriented person (1972). I didn’t like French much. Although now I can listen to it and it sounds lyrical. I just can’t understand any of it.

When we started watching The Eagle some years ago, I found the Danish very clipped. I don’t understand that language at all, but I did get my ear attuned eventually and it started to sound “normal”.

Another anecdote. Mr buffy was looked after by a Dutch lady when he was very small while his mother worked. Apparently he learnt some Dutch before he learned English. He has no Dutch at all now and I think had forgotten it before he got to school. But he can pick a Dutch speaker in a crowd from a great distance, presumably by the intonations or something.

I speak bits of a few languages but as their grammar, sentence structure etc are so different to English I found they didn’t improve my English.
What it has done is enable me to generally understand non-English speakers at the Visitor Centre.

i usually talk loud and slow to non-english speakers. they soon pick up you are probably mad and go ask someone else.

Mrs diddly-squat teaches german language at a tertiary level and from what I can gleen, it seems that formal education in another language gives people more of an appreciation for the quirky irregularities that you simply take as a given in your own native language.

ChrispenEvan said:

i usually talk loud and slow to non-english speakers. they soon pick up you are probably mad and go ask someone else.

If they don’t understand what you are saying, fetch at them with a stick. They soon get the message by jove.

buffy said:

I liked the order of German. I liked Indonesian, but I had to choose one and at the time German was more likely to be useful to a science oriented person (1972). I didn’t like French much. Although now I can listen to it and it sounds lyrical. I just can’t understand any of it.

When we started watching The Eagle some years ago, I found the Danish very clipped. I don’t understand that language at all, but I did get my ear attuned eventually and it started to sound “normal”.

Another anecdote. Mr buffy was looked after by a Dutch lady when he was very small while his mother worked. Apparently he learnt some Dutch before he learned English. He has no Dutch at all now and I think had forgotten it before he got to school. But he can pick a Dutch speaker in a crowd from a great distance, presumably by the intonations or something.

It’s pretty hard to miss Dutch people speaking Dutch… it certainly sounds different to say German or Flemish

AwesomeO said:

ChrispenEvan said:

i usually talk loud and slow to non-english speakers. they soon pick up you are probably mad and go ask someone else.

If they don’t understand what you are saying, fetch at them with a stick. They soon get the message by jove.

The Poms shout & add an O

diddly-squat said:

buffy said:

I liked the order of German. I liked Indonesian, but I had to choose one and at the time German was more likely to be useful to a science oriented person (1972). I didn’t like French much. Although now I can listen to it and it sounds lyrical. I just can’t understand any of it.

When we started watching The Eagle some years ago, I found the Danish very clipped. I don’t understand that language at all, but I did get my ear attuned eventually and it started to sound “normal”.

Another anecdote. Mr buffy was looked after by a Dutch lady when he was very small while his mother worked. Apparently he learnt some Dutch before he learned English. He has no Dutch at all now and I think had forgotten it before he got to school. But he can pick a Dutch speaker in a crowd from a great distance, presumably by the intonations or something.

It’s pretty hard to miss Dutch people speaking Dutch… it certainly sounds different to say German or Flemish

I have a bit of trouble between German & Austrian. It helps if an Austrian greets me with “Servus”

Speedy said:

It is often claimed that children of immigrants do well in life.

Whilst that is the case for some I wouldn’t agree that it is the norm. My eldest sprog’s school is a select entry school and probably about 80% first generation Australians, the caveat being that they are nearly all from a few select nationalities. Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian and Sri lankan make up the vast majority of the student body. I suspect the term “tiger parent” applies to the parents of many of these girls.

Tamb said:

diddly-squat said:

buffy said:

I liked the order of German. I liked Indonesian, but I had to choose one and at the time German was more likely to be useful to a science oriented person (1972). I didn’t like French much. Although now I can listen to it and it sounds lyrical. I just can’t understand any of it.

When we started watching The Eagle some years ago, I found the Danish very clipped. I don’t understand that language at all, but I did get my ear attuned eventually and it started to sound “normal”.

Another anecdote. Mr buffy was looked after by a Dutch lady when he was very small while his mother worked. Apparently he learnt some Dutch before he learned English. He has no Dutch at all now and I think had forgotten it before he got to school. But he can pick a Dutch speaker in a crowd from a great distance, presumably by the intonations or something.

It’s pretty hard to miss Dutch people speaking Dutch… it certainly sounds different to say German or Flemish

I have a bit of trouble between German & Austrian. It helps if an Austrian greets me with “Servus”

German is the national language in Austria

If I learnt a second language it’d be signed language. Appeals to me more than learning a second spoken language.

transition said:

If I learnt a second language it’d be signed language. Appeals to me more than learning a second spoken language.

Dog is not too difficult

PermeateFree said:

transition said:

If I learnt a second language it’d be signed language. Appeals to me more than learning a second spoken language.

Dog is not too difficult

suppose it’s true in a way, that firstly every grunt a human makes is in some way to advertise ones presence. Talking to onseself, well, that might be practice.

>Dog is not too difficult

makes me wonder too if human language is ever not in some way territorial

transition said:

If I learnt a second language it’d be signed language. Appeals to me more than learning a second spoken language.

programming languages can be helpful, and they are similar

start with understanding algorithms

youtube has heaps for videos

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=understanding+algorithms

then learn about macros for the Operating System of choice, simple mouse and keyboard commands

youtube has lots of videos and search google for macros

the move to line commands / batch files / scripts

heaps of youtube videos and search online for batch command examples etc

after which try html or xhtml for creating webpages

then move to something easy to learn like Scratch https://scratch.mit.edu/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_(programming_language)

youtube > scratch programming > Search google for scratch examples

then on upwards to Python, C#, PHP, Java

The 2016 Top Programming Languages

hundreds of youtube videos for python, PHP, C#, java and hundreds of websites

to understand another language I would first research a bit about the structure of language and find out what things are common across different languages

things like names for objects,

names for actions,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language

learn whats common across languages

then learn different ones

Dad spoke Estonian, Swedish, English and smatterings of German, Russian and I think Finnish. Possibly Lithuanian and Latvian. He was a very quiet man and could blitz cryptic crosswords.

He taught me to read English and started to teach me Estonian when I was 4, but mother intervened because he was spending too much time with me…..yeah, whatever.

So as far as “doing well in life”….how do you define that, because I think I might have a different definition of “doing well”.

kii said:

So as far as “doing well in life”….how do you define that, because I think I might have a different definition of “doing well”.

Good question.

I really don’t know the answer, but let’s say for this thread, it’s defined as having good (formal) educational outcomes.

I really don’t know the answer, but let’s say for this thread, it’s defined as having good (formal) educational outcomes primary and secondary school results.

Fixed.

Speedy said:

I really don’t know the answer, but let’s say for this thread, it’s defined as having good (formal) educational outcomes primary and secondary school results.

Fixed.

That, IMO, is a very limited way of looking at life.

kii said:

Speedy said:

I really don’t know the answer, but let’s say for this thread, it’s defined as having good (formal) educational outcomes primary and secondary school results.

Fixed.

That, IMO, is a very limited way of looking at life.

It’s easy to take a single line and take it out of context. I thought I explained it reasonably well in the OP.

I am not claiming that good school results = doing well at life.

Speedy said:

kii said:

Speedy said:

I really don’t know the answer, but let’s say for this thread, it’s defined as having good (formal) educational outcomes primary and secondary school results.

Fixed.

That, IMO, is a very limited way of looking at life.

It’s easy to take a single line and take it out of context. I thought I explained it reasonably well in the OP.

I am not claiming that good school results = doing well at life.

Are there any studies etc. that actually back up the comments made in the OP?

My view of doing well in life encompasses more than academic achievements.

the academic angle was only alluded to in passing. not as the crux of the argument.

Oh FFS. I’m off to bed.

ChrispenEvan said:

the academic angle was only alluded to in passing. not as the crux of the argument.

Meh…I still think it’s a vague and waffly thing.

IME – “do well in life” = financial/power etc.

For me someone who does well in life is way more than that. Stuff like community spirit, compassion, kindness….social justice/touchy feely things and respect and manners…and work ethics….blah blah blah.

maybe but this is more specific than those things. and it isn’t waffle and there have been studies on this very subject and no i ain’t going looking for them. but i do remember studies done on refugees and their children’s success in their new country.

I think the ‘second language’ thing is as good as learning any other specific skill intensely. Learning music and how to read it/ learning mechanics and how to listen to an engine for diagnosis/ learning sign language… it all opens up another point of reference that you can draw from in every day experiences.

“What if (God) isn’t omnipotent, He’s just been around so long he knows everything.”

ChrispenEvan said:

maybe but this is more specific than those things. and it isn’t waffle and there have been studies on this very subject and no i ain’t going looking for them. but i do remember studies done on refugees and their children’s success in their new country.

that could be more experience motivation than anything else though…

i think language because of its different structure in different cultures wires the brain in not the same way as what you mention arts. it gives insight into how that culture thinks. language is after all thought made manifest.

Some people consider reading music = learning another language.

kii said:

Some people consider reading music = learning another language.

same as maths, which music is.

ChrispenEvan said:

kii said:

Some people consider reading music = learning another language.

same as maths, which music is.

Yes. I did flash that through my brain as I wrote the post.

Speedy said:

A better understanding of English will bring improvements in many other subjects. If a school-aged student is mediocre in (the comprehension of) English, would the learning of a second language be beneficial?

our school has a very high (about 87%) student body of international students. They don’t do so well at comprehension, even though they can speak both their native language and English. This is mainly because the comprehension testing is Australian culture based and they don’t know Australian Culture. Having said that, learning a second language is often praised and not really frowned upon in most environments… so it can’t hurt.
I did, long ago, read a study that it is more difficult to learn another language (other than native) the older you get…

ChrispenEvan said:

i think language because of its different structure in different cultures wires the brain in not the same way as what you mention arts. it gives insight into how that culture thinks. language is after all thought made manifest.

I disagree… you can learn a language but still not know the culture…

Arts said:

I did, long ago, read a study that it is more difficult to learn another language (other than native) the older you get…

That idea has been around for many years. Though I’m not sure that I totally agree with it.

ChrispenEvan said:

kii said:

Some people consider reading music = learning another language.

same as maths, which music is.

once I was chatting to a parent while waiting for the children to finish whatever sport they were doing at the time. I had never met this parent before and she was banging on about how gifted her children are at music. So I asked if they are good at maths, since it was proven they were correlated, which she replied yes they were, but, she continues, I (meaning her) am great at maths but “I can’t hold a note”… and then she finished with the pearler, “and my kids music teacher is a typical music teacher, you know, really good at what they do but terrible at everything else.” I didn’t mention that I was a music teacher, though I wish I had said that her mathematical ability has nothing to do with the fact that she has no talent.

kii said:

Arts said:

I did, long ago, read a study that it is more difficult to learn another language (other than native) the older you get…

That idea has been around for many years. Though I’m not sure that I totally agree with it.

I think it probably depends a lot on ability to practice…

Arts said:

kii said:

Arts said:

I did, long ago, read a study that it is more difficult to learn another language (other than native) the older you get…

That idea has been around for many years. Though I’m not sure that I totally agree with it.

I think it probably depends a lot on ability to practice…

I thought it was just a fact.

Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

kii said:

Some people consider reading music = learning another language.

same as maths, which music is.

once I was chatting to a parent while waiting for the children to finish whatever sport they were doing at the time. I had never met this parent before and she was banging on about how gifted her children are at music. So I asked if they are good at maths, since it was proven they were correlated, which she replied yes they were, but, she continues, I (meaning her) am great at maths but “I can’t hold a note”… and then she finished with the pearler, “and my kids music teacher is a typical music teacher, you know, really good at what they do but terrible at everything else.” I didn’t mention that I was a music teacher, though I wish I had said that her mathematical ability has nothing to do with the fact that she has no talent.

but not ‘he music teacher in question?

party_pants said:

Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

same as maths, which music is.

once I was chatting to a parent while waiting for the children to finish whatever sport they were doing at the time. I had never met this parent before and she was banging on about how gifted her children are at music. So I asked if they are good at maths, since it was proven they were correlated, which she replied yes they were, but, she continues, I (meaning her) am great at maths but “I can’t hold a note”… and then she finished with the pearler, “and my kids music teacher is a typical music teacher, you know, really good at what they do but terrible at everything else.” I didn’t mention that I was a music teacher, though I wish I had said that her mathematical ability has nothing to do with the fact that she has no talent.

but not ‘he music teacher in question?

are you saying I am an atypical music teacher?

Arts said:

party_pants said:

Arts said:

once I was chatting to a parent while waiting for the children to finish whatever sport they were doing at the time. I had never met this parent before and she was banging on about how gifted her children are at music. So I asked if they are good at maths, since it was proven they were correlated, which she replied yes they were, but, she continues, I (meaning her) am great at maths but “I can’t hold a note”… and then she finished with the pearler, “and my kids music teacher is a typical music teacher, you know, really good at what they do but terrible at everything else.” I didn’t mention that I was a music teacher, though I wish I had said that her mathematical ability has nothing to do with the fact that she has no talent.

but not ‘he music teacher in question?

are you saying I am an atypical music teacher?

He may have been suggesting that you are a typical atypical music teacher.

Arts said:

party_pants said:

Arts said:

once I was chatting to a parent while waiting for the children to finish whatever sport they were doing at the time. I had never met this parent before and she was banging on about how gifted her children are at music. So I asked if they are good at maths, since it was proven they were correlated, which she replied yes they were, but, she continues, I (meaning her) am great at maths but “I can’t hold a note”… and then she finished with the pearler, “and my kids music teacher is a typical music teacher, you know, really good at what they do but terrible at everything else.” I didn’t mention that I was a music teacher, though I wish I had said that her mathematical ability has nothing to do with the fact that she has no talent.

but not ‘he music teacher in question?

are you saying I am an atypical music teacher?

I know nothing of your music teaching, I know only that side of your life you share with us, like everyone else on this forum.

I always thought that these children inherit the genetics to be more driven (to make necessary change), but also are raised in an environment where, for various reasons, improvement and success are sought.

However, these children are the generation most likely to be bilingual and in my experience, most of the more intelligent students at my school were (bilingual). The less/least intelligent students that I can remember were all English-only speakers, with some being children of immigrants from English-speaking countries.

___

“i always thought”

confirmation bias

party_pants said:

Arts said:

party_pants said:

but not ‘he music teacher in question?

are you saying I am an atypical music teacher?

I know nothing of your music teaching, I know only that side of your life you share with us, like everyone else on this forum.

besides, .. I don’t have the time or the energy to stalk you.

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

Arts said:

are you saying I am an atypical music teacher?

I know nothing of your music teaching, I know only that side of your life you share with us, like everyone else on this forum.

besides, .. I don’t have the time or the energy to stalk you.

I’ll bring my guitar and play you a song at the next pud

Arts said:

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

I know nothing of your music teaching, I know only that side of your life you share with us, like everyone else on this forum.

besides, .. I don’t have the time or the energy to stalk you.

I’ll bring my guitar and play you a song at the next pud

OK, as I long as I don’t have to keep up with you on the walk from the train station to the pub :)

party_pants said:

Arts said:

party_pants said:

besides, .. I don’t have the time or the energy to stalk you.

I’ll bring my guitar and play you a song at the next pud

OK, as I long as I don’t have to keep up with you on the walk from the train station to the pub :)

you’ll catch up because I’ll have to stop and busk or my fare (I could be a while)

this leads me to an interesting story that I’ll continue in chat…

Does an understanding of another language bring a better understanding of English and if so, is it ever too late to gain that level of understanding?

Here’s the background …

It is often claimed that children of immigrants do well in life.

—-

Aye, Australia is a nation of immigrants, from the British, Irish , Chinese, Afghanis, Italians, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Vietnamese etc.
They all do well here.

My guess is that coming from a family that has to leave their whole world behind invests a lot of seriousness.

>Aye, Australia is a nation of immigrants, from the British, Irish , Chinese, Afghanis, Italians, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Vietnamese etc.
They all do well here.

Ignoring the obstacle indigenous, which I might’ve added australians so that all can appreciate nation.

When I think nation (summon the concept) I see flags. Strange things flags, well, they would be if I dared.

ChrispenEvan said:

i think language because of its different structure in different cultures wires the brain in not the same way as what you mention arts. it gives insight into how that culture thinks. language is after all thought made manifest.

Yes. I think the way a person’s primary language is structured may influence their order/categorising of thought.