http://gradworks.umi.com/14/72/1472657.html
The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. Presence of the Macdonald triad in childhood has long been held to be predictive of later interpersonal violence. Using a methodology based upon grounded theory, this study examined the origins and evolution of the triad with an eye to evaluating its utility as a predictive factor in subsequent violent behavior. An extensive review of the literature reveals little empirical support for the validity of this triad. The fact that the Macdonald triad has been and continues to be presented as fact suggests a need to revisit the process by which theories of violent behavior are derived and sustained.

http://criminology101.tumblr.com/post/36774642346/there-is-actually-little-empirical-support-for-the
There is actually little empirical support for the “McDonald Triad” as predictor of serial murder. In 1963, MacDonald formulated a triad of behaviors that he thought could potentially be used to predict future aggressive behavior. These three characteristics included enuresis beyond the age of 5, a preoccupation with firesetting (e.g., Berkowitz, Panzram, Otis Toole), and animal cruelty (e.g., Dahmer). This was used as a predictor of aggressive behavior, not serial murder. More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

Hellman and Blackman (1966) found one or more of the triad characteristics to be present in 74% of the aggressive criminals. Using a chi-square analysis, they found a significant relationship between the presence of any one of the triad behaviors and the commission of aggressive crimes. They also found the presence of any single trait to be significantly related to the presence of another trait. They suggested that the triad should be used as an alarm to society that significant problems exist within the individual eliciting the triad. They argued that if these problems were not dealt with early on in life, they may lead to aggressive adult behavior. They argued that bedwetting is a form of “sadistic and hostile rebellion towards parents”

Slavkin (2001) discovered that animal cruelty was associated with recidivistic firesetting behavior in juvenile firesetters. Slavkin interviewed and surveyed 878 firesetters. A chisquare analysis revealed a strong relationship between animal cruelty and recidivistic firesetting. His data, however, revealed no significant relationship between enuresis and firesetting. However, he noted that enuresis was present more often in his sample of firesetters than in a normative sample.

There are no empirical studies of serial murder and the Macdonald triad. Only case studies and anecdotal information.

dv said:

http://gradworks.umi.com/14/72/1472657.html
The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. Presence of the Macdonald triad in childhood has long been held to be predictive of later interpersonal violence. Using a methodology based upon grounded theory, this study examined the origins and evolution of the triad with an eye to evaluating its utility as a predictive factor in subsequent violent behavior. An extensive review of the literature reveals little empirical support for the validity of this triad. The fact that the Macdonald triad has been and continues to be presented as fact suggests a need to revisit the process by which theories of violent behavior are derived and sustained.

http://criminology101.tumblr.com/post/36774642346/there-is-actually-little-empirical-support-for-the
There is actually little empirical support for the “McDonald Triad” as predictor of serial murder. In 1963, MacDonald formulated a triad of behaviors that he thought could potentially be used to predict future aggressive behavior. These three characteristics included enuresis beyond the age of 5, a preoccupation with firesetting (e.g., Berkowitz, Panzram, Otis Toole), and animal cruelty (e.g., Dahmer). This was used as a predictor of aggressive behavior, not serial murder. More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

Hellman and Blackman (1966) found one or more of the triad characteristics to be present in 74% of the aggressive criminals. Using a chi-square analysis, they found a significant relationship between the presence of any one of the triad behaviors and the commission of aggressive crimes. They also found the presence of any single trait to be significantly related to the presence of another trait. They suggested that the triad should be used as an alarm to society that significant problems exist within the individual eliciting the triad. They argued that if these problems were not dealt with early on in life, they may lead to aggressive adult behavior. They argued that bedwetting is a form of “sadistic and hostile rebellion towards parents”

Slavkin (2001) discovered that animal cruelty was associated with recidivistic firesetting behavior in juvenile firesetters. Slavkin interviewed and surveyed 878 firesetters. A chisquare analysis revealed a strong relationship between animal cruelty and recidivistic firesetting. His data, however, revealed no significant relationship between enuresis and firesetting. However, he noted that enuresis was present more often in his sample of firesetters than in a normative sample.

There are no empirical studies of serial murder and the Macdonald triad. Only case studies and anecdotal information.

What about the NZ Study over several decades, where they reached a different scenario.

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

http://gradworks.umi.com/14/72/1472657.html
The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. Presence of the Macdonald triad in childhood has long been held to be predictive of later interpersonal violence. Using a methodology based upon grounded theory, this study examined the origins and evolution of the triad with an eye to evaluating its utility as a predictive factor in subsequent violent behavior. An extensive review of the literature reveals little empirical support for the validity of this triad. The fact that the Macdonald triad has been and continues to be presented as fact suggests a need to revisit the process by which theories of violent behavior are derived and sustained.

http://criminology101.tumblr.com/post/36774642346/there-is-actually-little-empirical-support-for-the
There is actually little empirical support for the “McDonald Triad” as predictor of serial murder. In 1963, MacDonald formulated a triad of behaviors that he thought could potentially be used to predict future aggressive behavior. These three characteristics included enuresis beyond the age of 5, a preoccupation with firesetting (e.g., Berkowitz, Panzram, Otis Toole), and animal cruelty (e.g., Dahmer). This was used as a predictor of aggressive behavior, not serial murder. More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

Hellman and Blackman (1966) found one or more of the triad characteristics to be present in 74% of the aggressive criminals. Using a chi-square analysis, they found a significant relationship between the presence of any one of the triad behaviors and the commission of aggressive crimes. They also found the presence of any single trait to be significantly related to the presence of another trait. They suggested that the triad should be used as an alarm to society that significant problems exist within the individual eliciting the triad. They argued that if these problems were not dealt with early on in life, they may lead to aggressive adult behavior. They argued that bedwetting is a form of “sadistic and hostile rebellion towards parents”

Slavkin (2001) discovered that animal cruelty was associated with recidivistic firesetting behavior in juvenile firesetters. Slavkin interviewed and surveyed 878 firesetters. A chisquare analysis revealed a strong relationship between animal cruelty and recidivistic firesetting. His data, however, revealed no significant relationship between enuresis and firesetting. However, he noted that enuresis was present more often in his sample of firesetters than in a normative sample.

There are no empirical studies of serial murder and the Macdonald triad. Only case studies and anecdotal information.

What about the NZ Study over several decades, where they reached a different scenario.

As they did again on Pitcairn.

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

http://gradworks.umi.com/14/72/1472657.html
The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. Presence of the Macdonald triad in childhood has long been held to be predictive of later interpersonal violence. Using a methodology based upon grounded theory, this study examined the origins and evolution of the triad with an eye to evaluating its utility as a predictive factor in subsequent violent behavior. An extensive review of the literature reveals little empirical support for the validity of this triad. The fact that the Macdonald triad has been and continues to be presented as fact suggests a need to revisit the process by which theories of violent behavior are derived and sustained.

http://criminology101.tumblr.com/post/36774642346/there-is-actually-little-empirical-support-for-the
There is actually little empirical support for the “McDonald Triad” as predictor of serial murder. In 1963, MacDonald formulated a triad of behaviors that he thought could potentially be used to predict future aggressive behavior. These three characteristics included enuresis beyond the age of 5, a preoccupation with firesetting (e.g., Berkowitz, Panzram, Otis Toole), and animal cruelty (e.g., Dahmer). This was used as a predictor of aggressive behavior, not serial murder. More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

Hellman and Blackman (1966) found one or more of the triad characteristics to be present in 74% of the aggressive criminals. Using a chi-square analysis, they found a significant relationship between the presence of any one of the triad behaviors and the commission of aggressive crimes. They also found the presence of any single trait to be significantly related to the presence of another trait. They suggested that the triad should be used as an alarm to society that significant problems exist within the individual eliciting the triad. They argued that if these problems were not dealt with early on in life, they may lead to aggressive adult behavior. They argued that bedwetting is a form of “sadistic and hostile rebellion towards parents”

Slavkin (2001) discovered that animal cruelty was associated with recidivistic firesetting behavior in juvenile firesetters. Slavkin interviewed and surveyed 878 firesetters. A chisquare analysis revealed a strong relationship between animal cruelty and recidivistic firesetting. His data, however, revealed no significant relationship between enuresis and firesetting. However, he noted that enuresis was present more often in his sample of firesetters than in a normative sample.

There are no empirical studies of serial murder and the Macdonald triad. Only case studies and anecdotal information.

What about the NZ Study over several decades, where they reached a different scenario.

Provide a URL to the paper, and I’ll compare/contrast/comment.

dv said:

Provide a URL to the paper, and I’ll compare/contrast/comment.

Back in my day, there was this bloke who had a pat answer to everything. Totally amazing. When he was stoned, he added man, to the end.

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

http://gradworks.umi.com/14/72/1472657.html
The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. Presence of the Macdonald triad in childhood has long been held to be predictive of later interpersonal violence. Using a methodology based upon grounded theory, this study examined the origins and evolution of the triad with an eye to evaluating its utility as a predictive factor in subsequent violent behavior. An extensive review of the literature reveals little empirical support for the validity of this triad. The fact that the Macdonald triad has been and continues to be presented as fact suggests a need to revisit the process by which theories of violent behavior are derived and sustained.

http://criminology101.tumblr.com/post/36774642346/there-is-actually-little-empirical-support-for-the
There is actually little empirical support for the “McDonald Triad” as predictor of serial murder. In 1963, MacDonald formulated a triad of behaviors that he thought could potentially be used to predict future aggressive behavior. These three characteristics included enuresis beyond the age of 5, a preoccupation with firesetting (e.g., Berkowitz, Panzram, Otis Toole), and animal cruelty (e.g., Dahmer). This was used as a predictor of aggressive behavior, not serial murder. More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

Hellman and Blackman (1966) found one or more of the triad characteristics to be present in 74% of the aggressive criminals. Using a chi-square analysis, they found a significant relationship between the presence of any one of the triad behaviors and the commission of aggressive crimes. They also found the presence of any single trait to be significantly related to the presence of another trait. They suggested that the triad should be used as an alarm to society that significant problems exist within the individual eliciting the triad. They argued that if these problems were not dealt with early on in life, they may lead to aggressive adult behavior. They argued that bedwetting is a form of “sadistic and hostile rebellion towards parents”

Slavkin (2001) discovered that animal cruelty was associated with recidivistic firesetting behavior in juvenile firesetters. Slavkin interviewed and surveyed 878 firesetters. A chisquare analysis revealed a strong relationship between animal cruelty and recidivistic firesetting. His data, however, revealed no significant relationship between enuresis and firesetting. However, he noted that enuresis was present more often in his sample of firesetters than in a normative sample.

There are no empirical studies of serial murder and the Macdonald triad. Only case studies and anecdotal information.

What about the NZ Study over several decades, where they reached a different scenario.

Provide a URL to the paper, and I’ll compare/contrast/comment.

http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/social-trends/dunedin-study/ With research you would probably locate the actual study paper(s).

roughbarked said:

dv said:

Provide a URL to the paper, and I’ll compare/contrast/comment.

Back in my day, there was this bloke who had a pat answer to everything. Totally amazing. When he was stoned, he added man, to the end.

Fascinating!

dv said:

roughbarked said:

dv said:

Provide a URL to the paper, and I’ll compare/contrast/comment.

Back in my day, there was this bloke who had a pat answer to everything. Totally amazing. When he was stoned, he added man, to the end.

Fascinating!

Simplification is the name of the game.

PermeateFree said:

http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/social-trends/dunedin-study/ With research you would probably locate the actual study paper(s).

There’s not a damned thing in there about Macdonald’s Triad. There’s no mention at all of cruelty to animals, and the only mention of bedwetting is to say it is not a problem.
You’ve wasted my time.

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/social-trends/dunedin-study/ With research you would probably locate the actual study paper(s).

There’s not a damned thing in there about Macdonald’s Triad. There’s no mention at all of cruelty to animals, and the only mention of bedwetting is to say it is not a problem.
You’ve wasted my time.

Told y ou to make it simple. ;)

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/social-trends/dunedin-study/ With research you would probably locate the actual study paper(s).

There’s not a damned thing in there about Macdonald’s Triad. There’s no mention at all of cruelty to animals, and the only mention of bedwetting is to say it is not a problem.
You’ve wasted my time.

Not doubt you are bumptious prick, but if you read it you might learn something. This study is of world renown and regarded as the best study of its type, researchers are ecstatic about the detailed research and followup that has been carried on for such a long period. You seem to be out of your depth here dv.

> The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. … 1963 … More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

I happen to know something about this, though I’d have to check if his name was “Macdonald”. I think I own a book written by him.

This work was done at the very inception of the occupation of “criminal profiling”. It may well be that Macdonald actually invented and was the first practitioner of criminal profiling. He was a policeman. The question he asked himself was “How does a person become a serial killer?”. The question was not new, but he actually found the answer. To answer it he visited in prison every serial killer and became friends with many of them. He found that serial killers were often happy to talk, because hardly anyone had asked them about their childhood and life experiences before. His work can never be repeated, because now organisations for the upholding of prisoners rights would immediately block any such attempt.

Macdonald found out three things about serial killers. Firstly, he found that serial killers were very persuasive. Again and again he asked himself whether such a person could actually commit the acts that they were imprisoned for. Again and again he checked the records and found that the evidence was incontrovertable.

Second, Macdonald found that serial killers could be split into two opposite types. One type was very organised, planned everything well in advance and left absolutely nothing to chance. The other type was completely disorganised. One example he gave of the disorganised type entered a house and killed the intended. But while there other people called at the door to find out what was wrong so he invited them in and killed them, too. In the end he was stuffing bodies in cupboards and everywhere at random.

Third, Macdonald found that all serial killers were characterised by a childhood that includes at least two of: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and bedwetting. Those three characteristics could then be used to identify serial killers before they became serial killers. It was brilliant work, and kickstarted the occupation of criminal profiling.

I may as well mention a fourth thing he found out. He found that rape kits were never purchased as a whole, but one piece first and then another piece say six months later, and then another piece six months after that. He deduced that rape was present in the mind of these serial rapists long before the first rape was committed. And this, too, gave police a way to stop serial criminals before they committed their first offence.

Now, going back to the “urban myth” myth, it was never claimed by Macdonald or anyone else that extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and bedwetting tended to occur together in children. If they did tend to occur together then there would be more serial killers, and luckily there are few serial killers.

So, if you like, this supposedly new result that “More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.” actully confirms what Macdonal was saying, because the presence of two out of the three is an excellent predictor of whether a child will grow up to be a serial killer, and there are very few serial killers.

I can’t find a free copy of Macdonald’s 1963 paper online….did you find it moll, or do you have a book with it? At the relevent journal you have to pay to read:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.120.2.125?journalCode=ajp

mollwollfumble said:

> The Macdonald triad is an alleged phenomenon that has enjoyed popular acceptance for almost half a century. The triad consists of three behaviors: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis. It is often cited by academics, professionals, and practitioners as precursory to a variety of violent criminal careers. … 1963 … More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.

I happen to know something about this, though I’d have to check if his name was “Macdonald”. I think I own a book written by him.

This work was done at the very inception of the occupation of “criminal profiling”. It may well be that Macdonald actually invented and was the first practitioner of criminal profiling. He was a policeman. The question he asked himself was “How does a person become a serial killer?”. The question was not new, but he actually found the answer. To answer it he visited in prison every serial killer and became friends with many of them. He found that serial killers were often happy to talk, because hardly anyone had asked them about their childhood and life experiences before. His work can never be repeated, because now organisations for the upholding of prisoners rights would immediately block any such attempt.

Macdonald found out three things about serial killers. Firstly, he found that serial killers were very persuasive. Again and again he asked himself whether such a person could actually commit the acts that they were imprisoned for. Again and again he checked the records and found that the evidence was incontrovertable.

Second, Macdonald found that serial killers could be split into two opposite types. One type was very organised, planned everything well in advance and left absolutely nothing to chance. The other type was completely disorganised. One example he gave of the disorganised type entered a house and killed the intended. But while there other people called at the door to find out what was wrong so he invited them in and killed them, too. In the end he was stuffing bodies in cupboards and everywhere at random.

Third, Macdonald found that all serial killers were characterised by a childhood that includes at least two of: extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and bedwetting. Those three characteristics could then be used to identify serial killers before they became serial killers. It was brilliant work, and kickstarted the occupation of criminal profiling.

I may as well mention a fourth thing he found out. He found that rape kits were never purchased as a whole, but one piece first and then another piece say six months later, and then another piece six months after that. He deduced that rape was present in the mind of these serial rapists long before the first rape was committed. And this, too, gave police a way to stop serial criminals before they committed their first offence.

Now, going back to the “urban myth” myth, it was never claimed by Macdonald or anyone else that extreme cruelty to animals, firesetting, and bedwetting tended to occur together in children. If they did tend to occur together then there would be more serial killers, and luckily there are few serial killers.

So, if you like, this supposedly new result that “More recent studies have failed to link the three characteristics.” actully confirms what Macdonal was saying, because the presence of two out of the three is an excellent predictor of whether a child will grow up to be a serial killer, and there are very few serial killers.

No, this evidence refutes Macdonald’s model. And Macdonald’s model was about “aggressive behaviour” prediction, not serial killers.

> No, this evidence refutes Macdonald’s model. And Macdonald’s model was about “aggressive behaviour” prediction

I totally disagree. There has been no successful attempt to link the more recent analyses to “agressive behaviour” prediction. All the more recent analyses say is that there is no significant correllation between the three indicators in children. And that was pretty obvious anyway.

What I did find, although I could not access the original paper, seemed to be about serial killers.

buffy said:

What I did find, although I could not access the original paper, seemed to be about serial killers.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1176/ajp.120.2.125

It’s about the threat of homicide, not serial killers per se.

dv said:

buffy said:

What I did find, although I could not access the original paper, seemed to be about serial killers.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1176/ajp.120.2.125

It’s about the threat of homicide, not serial killers per se.

I found that…you have to pay if you want to read more than one page.

dv said:

buffy said:

What I did find, although I could not access the original paper, seemed to be about serial killers.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1176/ajp.120.2.125

It’s about the threat of homicide, not serial killers per se.

I think dv will have to review his child rearing strategy.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-27/conviction-inside-the-hunt-for-jill-meagher’s-killer/7864120
Jill Meagher: Conviction documentary reveals how killer Adrian Bayley was caught

Police think Adrian Bayley could have evolved into a serial killer.

I can’t read either of the cited papers (one gives me a js error, the other is behind a paywall), but anecdotally I have strong doubts that there’s any value at all in the triad. Every child I’ve known (including myself) has gone through a stage of being fascinated by fire and firelighting; similarly, every child I’ve known has gone through a stage of torturing animals, which has (almost) always led to better empathy and kindness to animal in adulthood. Enuresis seems (from what I’ve been able to learn) to be uncontrollable, and seems to run in families; gaining accurate data is hard, because sufferers are reluctant to admit it.

btm said:

I can’t read either of the cited papers (one gives me a js error, the other is behind a paywall), but anecdotally I have strong doubts that there’s any value at all in the triad. Every child I’ve known (including myself) has gone through a stage of being fascinated by fire and firelighting; similarly, every child I’ve known has gone through a stage of torturing animals, which has (almost) always led to better empathy and kindness to animal in adulthood. Enuresis seems (from what I’ve been able to learn) to be uncontrollable, and seems to run in families; gaining accurate data is hard, because sufferers are reluctant to admit it.

The NZ Study tracked a very large number of people from babies to adulthood recording a very large range of information, which now can be pieced together to give very realistic statistical outcomes. They found a genetic link when coupled with a dysfunctional and violet home-life invariably lead to a life of crime. However people with the same gene but brought up in a loving and caring family did not go in the same direction. There is so much more to this study, which covers a very large number of environmental and social situations and because of its detail, is considered the best and most lengthy study of its kind.

btm said:

I can’t read either of the cited papers (one gives me a js error, the other is behind a paywall), but anecdotally I have strong doubts that there’s any value at all in the triad. Every child I’ve known (including myself) has gone through a stage of being fascinated by fire and firelighting; similarly, every child I’ve known has gone through a stage of torturing animals, which has (almost) always led to better empathy and kindness to animal in adulthood. Enuresis seems (from what I’ve been able to learn) to be uncontrollable, and seems to run in families; gaining accurate data is hard, because sufferers are reluctant to admit it.

The difference is taking pleasure in juvenile animal cruelty as opposed to curiosity leading to infliction of pain. Though I doubt you ‘every child’ anecdote, it isn’t as rare as serial killers.

CrazyNeutrino said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-27/conviction-inside-the-hunt-for-jill-meagher’s-killer/7864120
Jill Meagher: Conviction documentary reveals how killer Adrian Bayley was caught

Police think Adrian Bayley could have evolved into a serial killer.

phone tracing maps two phones traveling together

the police must have thanked him for making it easy using almost ubiquitous devices

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-27/conviction-inside-the-hunt-for-jill-meagher’s-killer/7864120
Jill Meagher: Conviction documentary reveals how killer Adrian Bayley was caught

Police think Adrian Bayley could have evolved into a serial killer.

phone tracing maps two phones traveling together

the police must have thanked him for making it easy using almost ubiquitous devices

So if you had a person missing and ran mapping for any device found moving along the target device in real time,

that would be handy for kidnapping prevention.

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-27/conviction-inside-the-hunt-for-jill-meagher’s-killer/7864120
Jill Meagher: Conviction documentary reveals how killer Adrian Bayley was caught

Police think Adrian Bayley could have evolved into a serial killer.

phone tracing maps two phones traveling together

the police must have thanked him for making it easy using almost ubiquitous devices

So if you had a person missing and ran mapping for any device found moving along the target device in real time,

that would be handy for kidnapping prevention.

You could make it quiet fast as it could easy discard devices further away, thus really speeding it up.

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

phone tracing maps two phones traveling together

the police must have thanked him for making it easy using almost ubiquitous devices

So if you had a person missing and ran mapping for any device found moving along the target device in real time,

that would be handy for kidnapping prevention.

You could make it quiet fast as it could easy discard devices further away, thus really speeding it up.

They could run related device mapping backwards, do other stuff.