He helped me comprehend so much.

one of the world’s greatest scientists.

roughbarked said:

He helped me comprehend so much.

one of the world’s greatest scientists.

More info please. I saw on TV that he had died age 88 and that he had something to do with sustainable agriculture. But I had never heard the name before.

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

He helped me comprehend so much.

one of the world’s greatest scientists.

More info please. I saw on TV that he had died age 88 and that he had something to do with sustainable agriculture. But I had never heard the name before.

Bill Mollison

Bruce Charles “Bill” Mollison (4 May 1928 – 24 September 2016) was an Australian researcher, author, scientist, teacher, and biologist. He is referred to as the “father of permaculture.” Permaculture (a portmanteau of “permanent agriculture”) is an integrated system of ecological and environmental design which Mollison co-developed with David Holmgren, and which they together envisioned as a perennial and sustainable form of agriculture. In 1974, Mollison began his collaboration with Holmgren, and in 1978 they published their book Permaculture One, which introduced this design system to the general public. Mollison founded The Permaculture Institute in Tasmania, and created the education system to train others under the umbrella of permaculture. This education system of “train the trainer”, utilized through a formal Permaculture Design Course and Certification (PDC), has taught thousands of people throughout the world how to grow food and be sustainable using permaculture design principles.

Selected bibliography

Permaculture One: A Perennial Agriculture for Human Settlements, with David Holmgren. (Melbourne, Australia: Transworld Publishers, 1978) ISBN 978-0-938240-00-6 Permaculture Two: Practical Design for Town and Country in Permanent Agriculture (Tasmania, Australia: Tagari Publications, 1979) ISBN 9780908228003 Permaculture – A Designer’s Manual (1988) ISBN 978-0-908228-01-0 Introduction to Permaculture, with Reny Mia Slay. (Tasmania, Australia: Tagari Publications, 1991; revised 1997; 2nd ed. 2011) ISBN 978-0-908228-08-9 The Permaculture Book of Ferment and Human Nutrition (1993, Revised 2011) ISBN 978-0-908228-06-5 Travels in Dreams: An Autobiography (1996) ISBN 978-0-908228-11-9

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

He helped me comprehend so much.

one of the world’s greatest scientists.

More info please. I saw on TV that he had died age 88 and that he had something to do with sustainable agriculture. But I had never heard the name before.

Really?

So the word, permaculture had never passed your vigilance?

Visionary Bill Mollison inspired global permaculture movement

IS this the place where the global permaculture movement was born?

Up in the hills behind Margate is an isolated property boasting a timber cottage, outbuildings and a couple of dams.

You haven’t heard of Permaculture?

Permaculture

Permaculture is a system of agricultural and social design principles centered on simulating or directly utilizing the patterns and features observed in natural ecosystems. Permaculture was developed, and the term coined by Bill Mollison and David Holmgren in 1968.

It has many branches that include but are not limited to ecological design, ecological engineering, environmental design, construction and integrated water resources management that develops sustainable architecture, regenerative and self-maintained habitat and agricultural systems modeled from natural ecosystems.

Mollison has said: “Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted and thoughtful observation rather than protracted and thoughtless labor; and of looking at plants and animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single product system.”

more…

CrazyNeutrino said:

Visionary Bill Mollison inspired global permaculture movement

IS this the place where the global permaculture movement was born?

Up in the hills behind Margate is an isolated property boasting a timber cottage, outbuildings and a couple of dams.

This man spent his previous years fishing for sharks. He decided upon how and which paper the science could be written upon and set about making the earth his parchment.

His VHS tapes are probably going to be worth a bit more than the laughs I already have had from watching them.

roughbarked said:

His VHS tapes are probably going to be worth a bit more than the laughs I already have had from watching them.

Dad jokes yeah but he was a bit Harry Butler at times.

Books

http://www.fishpond.com.au/q/Bill+Mollison+Permaculture

Videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Bill+Mollison+Permaculture

CrazyNeutrino said:

Books

http://www.fishpond.com.au/q/Bill+Mollison+Permaculture

Videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Bill+Mollison+Permaculture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RD1GW-vOHg

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

He helped me comprehend so much.

one of the world’s greatest scientists.

More info please. I saw on TV that he had died age 88 and that he had something to do with sustainable agriculture. But I had never heard the name before.

Permaculture.

Interview with Bill Mollison

Just finished watching that video, interesting comments on religion, GM crops and permaculture

I agreed with all his comments.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Interview with Bill Mollison

Just finished watching that video, interesting comments on religion, GM crops and permaculture

I agreed with all his comments.

Really he was just an average Australian with an eye for the science of it all.

> So the word, permaculture had never passed your vigilance?

Correct. I’ve never heard the word permaculture before.

And if you define it as “working with rather than against nature”, as CN just did, then that’s such a airy fairy statement as to be meaningless.

So, what really is permaculture?

mollwollfumble said:

> So the word, permaculture had never passed your vigilance?

Correct. I’ve never heard the word permaculture before.

And if you define it as “working with rather than against nature”, as CN just did, then that’s such a airy fairy statement as to be meaningless.

So, what really is permaculture?

permaculture = the development of agricultural ecosystems intended to be sustainable and self-sufficient.

Permaculture is a system of agricultural and social design principles centered on simulating or directly utilizing the patterns and features observed in natural ecosystems. Permaculture was developed, and the term coined by Bill Mollison and David Holmgren in 1968.

Core tenets and principles of design

The three core tenets of permaculture are:

Care for the earth: Provision for all life systems to continue and multiply. This is the first principle, because without a healthy earth, humans cannot flourish. Care for the people: Provision for people to access those resources necessary for their existence. Return of surplus: Reinvesting surpluses back into the system to provide for the first two ethics. This includes returning waste back into the system to recycle into usefulness. The third ethic is sometimes referred to as Fair Share to reflect that each of us should take no more than what we need before we reinvest the surplus.

Permaculture design emphasizes patterns of landscape, function, and species assemblies. It determines where these elements should be placed so they can provide maximum benefit to the local environment. The central concept of permaculture is maximizing useful connections between components and synergy of the final design. The focus of permaculture, therefore, is not on each separate element, but rather on the relationships created among elements by the way they are placed together; the whole becoming greater than the sum of its parts. Permaculture design therefore seeks to minimize waste, human labor, and energy input by building systems with maximal benefits between design elements to achieve a high level of synergy. Permaculture designs evolve over time by taking into account these relationships and elements and can become extremely complex systems that produce a high density of food and materials with minimal input.

The design principles which are the conceptual foundation of permaculture were derived from the science of systems ecology and study of pre-industrial examples of sustainable land use. Permaculture draws from several disciplines including organic farming, agroforestry, integrated farming, sustainable development, and applied ecology. Permaculture has been applied most commonly to the design of housing and landscaping, integrating techniques such as agroforestry, natural building, and rainwater harvesting within the context of permaculture design principles and theory.

and

Theory

Twelve design principles

Twelve Permaculture design principles articulated by David Holmgren in his Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability:

Observe and interact: By taking time to engage with nature we can design solutions that suit our particular situation. Catch and store energy: By developing systems that collect resources at peak abundance, we can use them in times of need. Obtain a yield: Ensure that you are getting truly useful rewards as part of the work that you are doing. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback: We need to discourage inappropriate activity to ensure that systems can continue to function well. Use and value renewable resources and services: Make the best use of nature’s abundance to reduce our consumptive behavior and dependence on non-renewable resources. Produce no waste: By valuing and making use of all the resources that are available to us, nothing goes to waste. Design from patterns to details: By stepping back, we can observe patterns in nature and society. These can form the backbone of our designs, with the details filled in as we go. Integrate rather than segregate: By putting the right things in the right place, relationships develop between those things and they work together to support each other. Use small and slow solutions: Small and slow systems are easier to maintain than big ones, making better use of local resources and producing more sustainable outcomes. Use and value diversity: Diversity reduces vulnerability to a variety of threats and takes advantage of the unique nature of the environment in which it resides. Use edges and value the marginal: The interface between things is where the most interesting events take place. These are often the most valuable, diverse and productive elements in the system. Creatively use and respond to change: We can have a positive impact on inevitable change by carefully observing, and then intervening at the right time.

layers

Layers are one of the tools used to design functional ecosystems that are both sustainable and of direct benefit to humans. A mature ecosystem has a huge number of relationships between its component parts: trees, understory, ground cover, soil, fungi, insects, and animals. Because plants grow to different heights, a diverse community of life is able to grow in a relatively small space, as the vegetation occupies different layers. There are generally seven recognized layers in a food forest, although some practitioners also include fungi as an eighth layer.

The canopy: the tallest trees in the system. Large trees dominate but typically do not saturate the area, i.e. there exist patches barren of trees. Understory layer: trees that revel in the dappled light under the canopy. Shrub layer: a diverse layer of woody perennials of limited height. includes most berry bushes. Herbaceous layer: Plants in this layer die back to the ground every winter (if winters are cold enough, that is). They do not produce woody stems as the Shrub layer does. Many culinary and medicinal herbs are in this layer. A large variety of beneficial plants fall into this layer. May be annuals, biennials or perennials. Soil surface/Groundcover: There is some overlap with the Herbaceous layer and the Groundcover layer; however plants in this layer grow much closer to the ground, grow densely to fill bare patches of soil, and often can tolerate some foot traffic. Cover crops retain soil and lessen erosion, along with green manures that add nutrients and organic matter to the soil, especially nitrogen. Rhizosphere: Root layers within the soil. The major components of this layer are the soil and the organisms that live within it such as plant roots (including root crops such as potatoes and other edible tubers), fungi, insects, nematodes, worms, etc. Vertical layer: climbers or vines, such as runner beans and lima beans (vine varieties).

roughbarked can give better answers

its about designing an agricultural system to be self sufficient

I would start with this book

INTRODUCTION TO PERMACULTURE Bill Mollison sustainable living design

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/INTRODUCTION-TO-PERMACULTURE-Bill-Mollison-sustainable-living-design-/401196061981?hash=item5d6926151d:g:A7oAAOSwNRdX6bRW

then

Permaculture One a perennial agriculture by Bill Mollison & Holmgren (Gardening)

Permaculture Two design systems organic growing fruit veggies – Bill Mollison

PERMACULTURE HARDCOVER practical guide for a Sustainable Future – Bill Mollison

Permaculture – A Designer’s Manual, Bill Mollison hardcover

mollwollfumble said:

> So the word, permaculture had never passed your vigilance?

Correct. I’ve never heard the word permaculture before.

And if you define it as “working with rather than against nature”, as CN just did, then that’s such a airy fairy statement as to be meaningless.

So, what really is permaculture?

Really fresh food in places you’d never imagine.

Didn’t he do some work on plants that thrive together?

Because some plants dont get along with each other

that was part of his work I think

mollwollfumble said:

> So the word, permaculture had never passed your vigilance?

Correct. I’ve never heard the word permaculture before.

And if you define it as “working with rather than against nature”, as CN just did, then that’s such a airy fairy statement as to be meaningless.

So, what really is permaculture?

Portmanteau of permanent agriculture.

Bill Mollison was big on compost and not wasting, compost compost.

Books on composting are useful to have for establishing a sustainable garden

Bill Mollison worked at a few institutions CSIRO, Tasmania Museum, Inland Fisheries Commission, Permaculture Institute, University of Tasmania

CrazyNeutrino said:

permaculture = the development of agricultural ecosystems intended to be sustainable and self-sufficient.

Permaculture is a system of agricultural and social design principles centered on simulating or directly utilizing the patterns and features observed in natural ecosystems. Permaculture was developed, and the term coined by Bill Mollison and David Holmgren in 1968.

Core tenets and principles of design

The three core tenets of permaculture are:

Care for the earth: Provision for all life systems to continue and multiply. This is the first principle, because without a healthy earth, humans cannot flourish. Care for the people: Provision for people to access those resources necessary for their existence. Return of surplus: Reinvesting surpluses back into the system to provide for the first two ethics. This includes returning waste back into the system to recycle into usefulness. The third ethic is sometimes referred to as Fair Share to reflect that each of us should take no more than what we need before we reinvest the surplus.

Permaculture design emphasizes patterns of landscape, function, and species assemblies. It determines where these elements should be placed so they can provide maximum benefit to the local environment. The central concept of permaculture is maximizing useful connections between components and synergy of the final design. The focus of permaculture, therefore, is not on each separate element, but rather on the relationships created among elements by the way they are placed together; the whole becoming greater than the sum of its parts. Permaculture design therefore seeks to minimize waste, human labor, and energy input by building systems with maximal benefits between design elements to achieve a high level of synergy. Permaculture designs evolve over time by taking into account these relationships and elements and can become extremely complex systems that produce a high density of food and materials with minimal input.

The design principles which are the conceptual foundation of permaculture were derived from the science of systems ecology and study of pre-industrial examples of sustainable land use. Permaculture draws from several disciplines including organic farming, agroforestry, integrated farming, sustainable development, and applied ecology. Permaculture has been applied most commonly to the design of housing and landscaping, integrating techniques such as agroforestry, natural building, and rainwater harvesting within the context of permaculture design principles and theory.

and

Theory

Twelve design principles

Twelve Permaculture design principles articulated by David Holmgren in his Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability:

Observe and interact: By taking time to engage with nature we can design solutions that suit our particular situation. Catch and store energy: By developing systems that collect resources at peak abundance, we can use them in times of need. Obtain a yield: Ensure that you are getting truly useful rewards as part of the work that you are doing. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback: We need to discourage inappropriate activity to ensure that systems can continue to function well. Use and value renewable resources and services: Make the best use of nature’s abundance to reduce our consumptive behavior and dependence on non-renewable resources. Produce no waste: By valuing and making use of all the resources that are available to us, nothing goes to waste. Design from patterns to details: By stepping back, we can observe patterns in nature and society. These can form the backbone of our designs, with the details filled in as we go. Integrate rather than segregate: By putting the right things in the right place, relationships develop between those things and they work together to support each other. Use small and slow solutions: Small and slow systems are easier to maintain than big ones, making better use of local resources and producing more sustainable outcomes. Use and value diversity: Diversity reduces vulnerability to a variety of threats and takes advantage of the unique nature of the environment in which it resides. Use edges and value the marginal: The interface between things is where the most interesting events take place. These are often the most valuable, diverse and productive elements in the system. Creatively use and respond to change: We can have a positive impact on inevitable change by carefully observing, and then intervening at the right time.

layers

Layers are one of the tools used to design functional ecosystems that are both sustainable and of direct benefit to humans. A mature ecosystem has a huge number of relationships between its component parts: trees, understory, ground cover, soil, fungi, insects, and animals. Because plants grow to different heights, a diverse community of life is able to grow in a relatively small space, as the vegetation occupies different layers. There are generally seven recognized layers in a food forest, although some practitioners also include fungi as an eighth layer.

The canopy: the tallest trees in the system. Large trees dominate but typically do not saturate the area, i.e. there exist patches barren of trees. Understory layer: trees that revel in the dappled light under the canopy. Shrub layer: a diverse layer of woody perennials of limited height. includes most berry bushes. Herbaceous layer: Plants in this layer die back to the ground every winter (if winters are cold enough, that is). They do not produce woody stems as the Shrub layer does. Many culinary and medicinal herbs are in this layer. A large variety of beneficial plants fall into this layer. May be annuals, biennials or perennials. Soil surface/Groundcover: There is some overlap with the Herbaceous layer and the Groundcover layer; however plants in this layer grow much closer to the ground, grow densely to fill bare patches of soil, and often can tolerate some foot traffic. Cover crops retain soil and lessen erosion, along with green manures that add nutrients and organic matter to the soil, especially nitrogen. Rhizosphere: Root layers within the soil. The major components of this layer are the soil and the organisms that live within it such as plant roots (including root crops such as potatoes and other edible tubers), fungi, insects, nematodes, worms, etc. Vertical layer: climbers or vines, such as runner beans and lima beans (vine varieties).

Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.

>>Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.<<

I have been aware of it over the years, but it’s sort of in the hippy, fringe basket of my mind file. And I actually thought it had pretty much been left behind.

mollwollfumble said:

Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.

It is the opposite of large scale farming with mechanical harvesting.

buffy said:

>>Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.<<

I have been aware of it over the years, but it’s sort of in the hippy, fringe basket of my mind file. And I actually thought it had pretty much been left behind.

Far from it.

mollwollfumble said:

Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.

Yep. It isn’t meant to be a highly efficient means of mass producing food that makes us ill.

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.

Yep. It isn’t meant to be a highly efficient means of mass producing food that makes us ill.

Full steam ahead with the either-orism I see.

On the one hand, to fail to put serious effort into making agriculture more sustainable is even dumber than failing to make serious efforts to minimize climate change, but for some reason talk of the former is treated as being the realm of the hippy brand of greenies.

On the other hand, any measures that are to have a significant effect on sustainability must be highly efficient means of mass producing food, preferably that does not make us ill.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.

Yep. It isn’t meant to be a highly efficient means of mass producing food that makes us ill.

Full steam ahead with the either-orism I see.

On the one hand, to fail to put serious effort into making agriculture more sustainable is even dumber than failing to make serious efforts to minimize climate change, but for some reason talk of the former is treated as being the realm of the hippy brand of greenies.

On the other hand, any measures that are to have a significant effect on sustainability must be highly efficient means of mass producing food, preferably that does not make us ill.

:)

A lot of what Bill proposed has been taken up by big agriculture in certain ways. Vertical growng for example. Pig farms that supply their own power from pig poo.

“If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything” Bill Mollison.

roughbarked said:

“If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything” Bill Mollison.

I guess everyone says stupid things sometimes.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

“If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything” Bill Mollison.

I guess everyone says stupid things sometimes.

The “” worked as search specific in ixquick’s startpage.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

“If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything” Bill Mollison.

I guess everyone says stupid things sometimes.

The “” worked as search specific in ixquick’s startpage.

Just tried that quote in Google and got:
No results found for “If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything”.

Results for If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything (without quotes):

Which is how it always used to work, so it looks like my previous search was just a random glitch.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I guess everyone says stupid things sometimes.

The “” worked as search specific in ixquick’s startpage.

Just tried that quote in Google and got:
No results found for “If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything”.

Results for If we lose all the universities, we lose nothing. If we lose the forest, we lose everything (without quotes):

Which is how it always used to work, so it looks like my previous search was just a random glitch.

I got pages like this:

The Forest Economy: woodland as New Economy metaphor …

https://transitionnetwork.org/blogs/rob-hopkins/2016-… Proxy Highlight

20 Jun 2016 … As we walked down through this ancient woodland, with its stream, its waterfalls, its trees, moss and … Mosses on trees that act as sponges, able to hold a lot of water all the way up the trees, and … As Mollison once said, “if we lose the Universities we lose nothing: if we lose the forests we lose everything”.
Permaculture Institute Peru – Chakra Alegría de Amor Rainforest …

www.rainforesthealingcenter.com/permaculture-institute/ Proxy Highlight

If we lose all the the universities, we lose nothing. But if we lose all the forests, we lose everything.” – Bill Mollison, founder of Permaculture. banana tree amazon …
Losing the Big Teacher – Permaculture Research Institute

www.permaculturenews.org/2014/01/08/losing-big-teacher/ Proxy Highlight

8 Jan 2014 … If we lose all the the universities, we lose nothing. But if we lose all the forests, we lose everything. — Bill Mollison, founder of Permaculture.

That’s odd.

If I remove the “all” Google finds lots of exact matches, but with the all it doesn’t find any.

The Rev Dodgson said:

That’s odd.

If I remove the “all” Google finds lots of exact matches, but with the all it doesn’t find any.

Probably wasn’t meant to be in the phrase.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Sorry, all I get from that is that it’s a mixture of waffle, perpetual motion, pro-dams, and practical advice that makes harvesting very difficult.

Yep. It isn’t meant to be a highly efficient means of mass producing food that makes us ill.

Full steam ahead with the either-orism I see.

On the one hand, to fail to put serious effort into making agriculture more sustainable is even dumber than failing to make serious efforts to minimize climate change, but for some reason talk of the former is treated as being the realm of the hippy brand of greenies.

On the other hand, any measures that are to have a significant effect on sustainability must be highly efficient means of mass producing food, preferably that does not make us ill.

Nicely summarised. I still cringe every time I hear the word “sustainable”. IMHO the word that should be substituted for “sustainable” is “efficiency”. Efficiency minimises resource usage and minimises waste.

Permaculture and traditional farming methods both aim at minimising resource usage and minimising waste. So why are they so different?

Could it be because permaculture does not consider “human effort” a resource?

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Yep. It isn’t meant to be a highly efficient means of mass producing food that makes us ill.

Full steam ahead with the either-orism I see.

On the one hand, to fail to put serious effort into making agriculture more sustainable is even dumber than failing to make serious efforts to minimize climate change, but for some reason talk of the former is treated as being the realm of the hippy brand of greenies.

On the other hand, any measures that are to have a significant effect on sustainability must be highly efficient means of mass producing food, preferably that does not make us ill.

Nicely summarised. I still cringe every time I hear the word “sustainable”. IMHO the word that should be substituted for “sustainable” is “efficiency”. Efficiency minimises resource usage and minimises waste.

Permaculture and traditional farming methods both aim at minimising resource usage and minimising waste. So why are they so different?

Could it be because permaculture does not consider “human effort” a resource?

I think permaculture is all about human effort.

Permaculture is bunk.

dv said:

Permaculture is bunk.

ref?

roughbarked said:

dv said:

Permaculture is bunk.

ref?

Henry Ford.

No wait.. that was something else.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

dv said:

Permaculture is bunk.

ref?

Henry Ford.

No wait.. that was something else.

you’re thinking of henry gibson.

ChrispenEvan said:

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

ref?

Henry Ford.

No wait.. that was something else.

you’re thinking of henry gibson.

a flower.

Ken Thomas’s views coincide roughly with mine
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/8944898/Traditional-farming-in-the-rainforest.html

According to an article in the RHS magazine The Garden, permaculture is “a state of mind or a way of thinking”, and involves “using the energies of the environment, rather than fighting them”.
So far, so meaningless. What actually is it? Examples of permaculture mentioned in the article include growing ornamentals and edible plants together, composting, collecting rainwater and buffering your greenhouse against extreme temperatures by putting a few large containers of water in it. These are all well and good, but surely just examples of ordinary good gardening?
On the website of the Permaculture Association, I quickly learn that permaculture will make the world a better place (and me a better person, likely as not), but still nothing about what it is. Back to The Garden, which tells me that a primary feature of many permaculture gardens is the “forest garden”, and that I can learn about that from the Agroforestry Research Trust in Devon. From their website I learn that agroforestry is an agronomic system based on trees, shrubs and perennial plants, which fits with the derivation of “permaculture” from “permanent agriculture”, i.e. gardening based on not digging things up.
Now we’re getting somewhere, but before we go any further, some essential background. At a global scale, the pattern of plant productivity depends on temperature and water, so a world map of productivity reflects that; productive where it’s warm and wet, unproductive where it’s cold and/or dry. At a smaller scale, soil fertility is crucial: plants grow fast on deep and fertile soils, but slowly on shallow, infertile soils.
So throughout history, farmers (or anyone trying to grow food) have done two things. First, they’ve tried to alleviate whatever is limiting local productivity, usually by irrigation or adding fertilisers. But raw productivity itself is little use. If the seedlings I keep pulling up are any guide, if I left my veg plot for a few years it would quickly become an ash wood with an understorey of holly and yew. Certainly very productive in terms of biomass per annum, but not particularly edible — at least not by me. Even if I could live on ash keys and holly berries, I think the novelty would wear off pretty quickly.
—-
At one point he says an acre of forest garden should feed four to five people. Maybe, but he also says if our near relative the orang-utan can live on forest leaves and fruits, why can’t we? Good question, but the highest density of orang-utans ever recorded (in a very productive rainforest in Sumatra) was seven-10 per square kilometre. To save you the trouble I’ll do the maths: that’s 0.04 orang-utans per acre.
Forest gardens can be beautiful, and great for wildlife, and they can do lots of wonderful things like store carbon, reduce nutrient losses, purify water and regulate local climate. But the orang-utans are telling us something important about how many human beings could be supported by a world without conventional agriculture.

—-

>But the orang-utans are telling us something important about how many human beings could be supported by a world without conventional agriculture.

Especially if you’re vegetarian.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Full steam ahead with the either-orism I see.

On the one hand, to fail to put serious effort into making agriculture more sustainable is even dumber than failing to make serious efforts to minimize climate change, but for some reason talk of the former is treated as being the realm of the hippy brand of greenies.

On the other hand, any measures that are to have a significant effect on sustainability must be highly efficient means of mass producing food, preferably that does not make us ill.

Nicely summarised. I still cringe every time I hear the word “sustainable”. IMHO the word that should be substituted for “sustainable” is “efficiency”.

You should try and get over that. There is nothing wrong with the word “sustainable” unless you want to be ridiculously pedantic about it.

mollwollfumble said:

Efficiency minimises resource usage and minimises waste.

Permaculture and traditional farming methods both aim at minimising resource usage and minimising waste. So why are they so different?

Could it be because permaculture does not consider “human effort” a resource?

Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

dv said:

Permaculture is bunk.

Quite possibly.

But then so is ignoring medium to long term costs, as we do at the moment.

Bubblecar said:

>But the orang-utans are telling us something important about how many human beings could be supported by a world without conventional agriculture.

Especially if you’re vegetarian.

But pemaculture isn’t about orangutans or being vegetarian. In permaculture there is scope for a wide swath of species that humans are dependent upon.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-02/compost-hot-water-shower-build/7894588

Michael V said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-02/compost-hot-water-shower-build/7894588

these humans are crazy

Michael V said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-02/compost-hot-water-shower-build/7894588

According to an article in the RHS magazine The Garden, permaculture is “a state of mind or a way of thinking”, and involves “using the energies of the environment, rather than fighting them”.

A compost shower for free hot water would fit straight into this way of thinking

so would a compost toilet

CrazyNeutrino said:

Michael V said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-02/compost-hot-water-shower-build/7894588

According to an article in the RHS magazine The Garden, permaculture is “a state of mind or a way of thinking”, and involves “using the energies of the environment, rather than fighting them”.

A compost shower for free hot water would fit straight into this way of thinking

so would a compost toilet

Certainly does. Methane generator.

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Michael V said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-02/compost-hot-water-shower-build/7894588

According to an article in the RHS magazine The Garden, permaculture is “a state of mind or a way of thinking”, and involves “using the energies of the environment, rather than fighting them”.

A compost shower for free hot water would fit straight into this way of thinking

so would a compost toilet

Certainly does. Methane generator.

A bit more on Jean Pain’s work

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Pain

Jean Pain (12 December 1928 – 30 July 1981) was a Swiss-born French inventor and innovator who developed a compost-based bioenergy system that produced 100% of his energy needs. He heated water to 60 °C (140 °F) at a rate of 4 litres per minute (0.88 imp gal/min; 1.1 US gal/min) which he used for washing and heating. He also distilled enough methane to run an electricity generator, cooking elements, and power his truck. This method of creating usable energy from composting materials has come to be known as “Jean Pain Composting”, or the “Jean Pain Method”.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/jean-pain-zmaz80mazraw

http://powerpermaculture.blogspot.com.au/p/jean-pain.html

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

One concern with this type of energy production would be safety issues on hot summer conditions

Over 42 degree days would the compost heaps self combust or stay stable?

Keep a temp probe in them for monitoring

ChrispenEvan said:

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

It is a bit, but it is not meant for city dwellers.

CrazyNeutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

It is a bit, but it is not meant for city dwellers.

I live pretty rural and I’d be hard pressed to get a tonne. Basically unless you had a few hectares you would be buying or trying to scab those tonnes.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Permaculture is bunk.

Quite possibly.

But then so is ignoring medium to long term costs, as we do at the moment.

Fair

ChrispenEvan said:

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

Doesn’t cost much.

CrazyNeutrino said:

One concern with this type of energy production would be safety issues on hot summer conditions

Over 42 degree days would the compost heaps self combust or stay stable?

Keep a temp probe in them for monitoring

I’ve never had one catch alight and I have a lot of days over 42 in succession.

5 of these.

ChrispenEvan said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

It is a bit, but it is not meant for city dwellers.

I live pretty rural and I’d be hard pressed to get a tonne. Basically unless you had a few hectares you would be buying or trying to scab those tonnes.

Yeah, one may think there’s a lot of weeds in my backyard and they make big heaps at first but it isn’t long before they are just a few shovels of compost. I’ve long been an avid collector and cadge or buy mterials.

compost $50-70 per tonne.

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

Doesn’t cost much.

$50/tonne

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Permaculture is bunk.

Quite possibly.

But then so is ignoring medium to long term costs, as we do at the moment.

Fair

The whole process of thought in permaculture is to steer away from short term solutions unless they are parrt of the whole farm system.

CrazyNeutrino said:

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

not many people have access to 50 tonnes of compost every 18 months.

Doesn’t cost much.

$50/tonne

$50/tonne, ? more or less

I guess it depends

ChrispenEvan said:

large-truck.jpg!

5 of these.

In my first year here I put nine 16 tonne trucks of grape marc on half an acre.

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

roughbarked said:

Doesn’t cost much.

$50/tonne

$50/tonne, ? more or less

I guess it depends

though of course you don’t actually want compost just compostable material, cos you are going to be making it to get the heat.

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

roughbarked said:

Doesn’t cost much.

$50/tonne

$50/tonne, ? more or less

I guess it depends

I paid $24 per 16 tonne truck for the first nine loads. Later I was paying $50 for the same amount but got six free loads for supplying a couple of hundred advanced bottlebrushess to the contractor.

ChrispenEvan said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

$50/tonne

$50/tonne, ? more or less

I guess it depends

though of course you don’t actually want compost just compostable material, cos you are going to be making it to get the heat.

yes woodchips

making your own would be cheaper

than buying woodchips per tonne

ChrispenEvan said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

$50/tonne

$50/tonne, ? more or less

I guess it depends

though of course you don’t actually want compost just compostable material, cos you are going to be making it to get the heat.

Yeah. The idea is to make heat. grape marc is excellent for this and Tarac distillers are crazy not to be using the heat which is otherwise wasted and then they’d have a good compost product to sell as well.

CrazyNeutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

$50/tonne, ? more or less

I guess it depends

though of course you don’t actually want compost just compostable material, cos you are going to be making it to get the heat.

yes woodchips

making your own would be cheaper

than buying woodchips per tonne

The contractors who come and cut/shred the branches that may interfere with the power wires will otherwise dump it down the road somewhere if I don’t ask for it.

It would be interesting to replicate Jean Pains Methane production.

There is megatonnes of comopstible material wasted all the time. If one looks around it can be found.

Of course you know what is an even cheaper and efficient way to heat water for a shower?

Any fucking thing

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

though of course you don’t actually want compost just compostable material, cos you are going to be making it to get the heat.

yes woodchips

making your own would be cheaper

than buying woodchips per tonne

The contractors who come and cut/shred the branches that may interfere with the power wires will otherwise dump it down the road somewhere if I don’t ask for it.

got a few tonne for the chocolate factory by letting the guys leave their vehicles on site overnight. they were glad for somewhere to dump it and our gardener was most pleased with me.

CrazyNeutrino said:

It would be interesting to replicate Jean Pains Methane production.

There was a pig farmer on yesterdays landline where he had invested 70 million in converting his entire energy needs to pig shit.

i always thought a compost would have been good for winter brewing. keep it warm.

dv said:

Of course you know what is an even cheaper and efficient way to heat water for a shower?

Any fucking thing

Well they used a bit of black poly in the comopst heap. You can just lay that in the sun and get a hot shower.

ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

yes woodchips

making your own would be cheaper

than buying woodchips per tonne

The contractors who come and cut/shred the branches that may interfere with the power wires will otherwise dump it down the road somewhere if I don’t ask for it.

got a few tonne for the chocolate factory by letting the guys leave their vehicles on site overnight. they were glad for somewhere to dump it and our gardener was most pleased with me.

These opportunities occur yes. Sometimes it costs a carton. Sometimes they are just glad to be rid of it.

ChrispenEvan said:

i always thought a compost would have been good for winter brewing. keep it warm.

absolutely. :)

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

though of course you don’t actually want compost just compostable material, cos you are going to be making it to get the heat.

yes woodchips

making your own would be cheaper

than buying woodchips per tonne

The contractors who come and cut/shred the branches that may interfere with the power wires will otherwise dump it down the road somewhere if I don’t ask for it.

I lot of green waste is collected monthly now in Ballarat, and people dump green waste at the waste collection facility

Most of it goes into parks and the botanical gardens, side strip planting, center strip planting etc

imagine energy production from all that and it still ends up as compost for planting etc

so its a gain

imagine if all councils did that

Kind of depends on how much energy is expended collecting, transporting, preparing and laying the compost.

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

It would be interesting to replicate Jean Pains Methane production.

There was a pig farmer on yesterdays landline where he had invested 70 million in converting his entire energy needs to pig shit.

who run bartertown?

>>imagine if all councils did that<<

I was under the impression that most councils shred the garden stuff taken to tips and then either sell it back to the public or use it in their public gardens. Ours have been doing it for years. Twenty years ago, though, you didn’t have to pay. You could just take the garden refuse to the tip, and pick up a trailer load of chipped stuff to bring home. No payment required. You did risk weeds and plastic bags, but it wasn’t that bad.

roughbarked said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

It would be interesting to replicate Jean Pains Methane production.

There was a pig farmer on yesterdays landline where he had invested 70 million in converting his entire energy needs to pig shit.

Has he got his Thunderdome set up yet?

From that article

PHOTO: Once complete, the temperature of the compost will reach 45C in two weeks and will stay that warm for 10 months, heating the water in the pipe within minutes between showers. (ABC News: Roxanne Taylor)
—-

45 C is not exactly hot

dv said:

From that article

PHOTO: Once complete, the temperature of the compost will reach 45C in two weeks and will stay that warm for 10 months, heating the water in the pipe within minutes between showers. (ABC News: Roxanne Taylor)
—-

45 C is not exactly hot

work ok as a pre-heater.

dv said:

Kind of depends on how much energy is expended collecting, transporting, preparing and laying the compost.

Yes. This why tyhe people who otherwise waste vast bulk of it should be the ones who use it, on site.

For example the distillery should use the heat from grape marc and the cotton grower, almond grower whatever, should be utilising their wastes on farm. They do and this is largely due to the fact that permaculture has been around a long time now and many at least try to do the best they can. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-28/carrathool-compost-proposal-to-use-cotton-trash/7056198

buffy said:

>>imagine if all councils did that<<

I was under the impression that most councils shred the garden stuff taken to tips and then either sell it back to the public or use it in their public gardens. Ours have been doing it for years. Twenty years ago, though, you didn’t have to pay. You could just take the garden refuse to the tip, and pick up a trailer load of chipped stuff to bring home. No payment required. You did risk weeds and plastic bags, but it wasn’t that bad.

Not all. Ours for example has had no green waste facility for a good while.

I wonder whether you could use it to run a turbine. Run a pipe through it (with thermal oil rather than water, I suppose) in a loop.

dv said:

From that article

PHOTO: Once complete, the temperature of the compost will reach 45C in two weeks and will stay that warm for 10 months, heating the water in the pipe within minutes between showers. (ABC News: Roxanne Taylor)
—-

45 C is not exactly hot

No but the safety valve on your hot water heater won’t let it get above 50.

dv said:

I wonder whether you could use it to run a turbine. Run a pipe through it (with thermal oil rather than water, I suppose) in a loop.

The point is that you do have the heat energy and it can be utilised in a few ways.

*hot water system

Do the companies that make compost make use of the heat in some way?

roughbarked said:

dv said:

I wonder whether you could use it to run a turbine. Run a pipe through it (with thermal oil rather than water, I suppose) in a loop.

The point is that you do have the heat energy and it can be utilised in a few ways.

Taking it to a larger operation where city level garden waste is turned to compost and creating energy production along the way and perhaps methane production as well

A design could be made that regular councils could buy off the shelve and the end result is still compost

Whatever way you do compost there will be heat involved and the most efficiency can be made from it. Apart from making waste into fertile soil, the weed seeds and pathogens are killed by the heat. It is all a win win. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-12/compost-fertiliser-expansion-yenda-1208/6692146

dv said:

Do the companies that make compost make use of the heat in some way?

They all use it to make compost. Some also use it to power their facilities, like the pig farmer.

dv said:

Do the companies that make compost make use of the heat in some way?

the large ones are in windrows and turned regularly, so having pipes or heat exchangers in the piles would most likely slow production.

ChrispenEvan said:

dv said:

Do the companies that make compost make use of the heat in some way?

the large ones are in windrows and turned regularly, so having pipes or heat exchangers in the piles would most likely slow production.

Yes. They are utilising the heat to break down the compost as quickly as possible. There are ways though that they could use the heat to rotate the compost.

ChrispenEvan said:

dv said:

Do the companies that make compost make use of the heat in some way?

the large ones are in windrows and turned regularly, so having pipes or heat exchangers in the piles would most likely slow production.

Fair

http://www.organicstream.org/2014/02/17/composting-in-the-biotech-industry-case-study/

they want max heat to kill pathogens, and seeds etc.

ChrispenEvan said:

dv said:

Do the companies that make compost make use of the heat in some way?

the large ones are in windrows and turned regularly, so having pipes or heat exchangers in the piles would most likely slow production.

yes, but output of compost would be the same once the process is underway

a better system could be designed for continual input and output

> Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

No. That could not be the case. Ever.

mollwollfumble said:

> Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

No. That could not be the case. Ever.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

sarcasm

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

No. That could not be the case. Ever.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Every farming method has long term efficiency in mind. Farmers don’t think short term, not like city dwellers, they can’t.

What we need is an Ohmbudsman for this stuff.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

No. That could not be the case. Ever.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Every farming method has long term efficiency in mind. Farmers don’t think short term, not like city dwellers, they can’t.

It would be nice to think that dv was right, and that’s supposed to be ironic, but I don’t think it is.

The Rev Dodgson said:

It would be nice to think that dv was right

It is bound to happen now and then.

It’s morning. Again.

Junior Groucho Zappa and his huge stoopid truck woke me up an hour ago. I hate diesel trucks.

kii said:

It’s morning. Again.

Junior Groucho Zappa and his huge stoopid truck woke me up an hour ago. I hate diesel trucks.

You need to move further out into the dessert, away from those types.

kii said:

It’s morning. Again.

Junior Groucho Zappa and his huge stoopid truck woke me up an hour ago. I hate diesel trucks.

see you have been lumbered with some permanent culture.

oopsy

Bubblecar said:

kii said:

It’s morning. Again.

Junior Groucho Zappa and his huge stoopid truck woke me up an hour ago. I hate diesel trucks.

You need to move further out into the dessert, away from those types.

Chocolate or pie?

kii said:

Bubblecar said:

kii said:

It’s morning. Again.

Junior Groucho Zappa and his huge stoopid truck woke me up an hour ago. I hate diesel trucks.

You need to move further out into the dessert, away from those types.

Chocolate or pie?

Candied Chihuahua.

Bubblecar said:

kii said:

Bubblecar said:

You need to move further out into the dessert, away from those types.

Chocolate or pie?

Candied Chihuahua.

I know where to get heaps of chihuahuas. Heaps. I know the best chihuahuas, the best.

I’m not in awe of Mollison. I get Permaculture..but back when I first read at it there was little new in it for me. I appreciated it. But wasn’t blown away. I never liked how the people who I knew that spruiked it were the ones who had no idea but had paid money to have no idea. somehow the way it was flogged made it feel like AMWAY to me.

I think I live very close to that lined story of the cabin in the Margate hills as the crow flies.. I do think he had to move away to somewhere fertile for the system to work. It was never going to work on that ridge. It worked better on in northern nsw.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.

The only time I had any dealings with Permaculture was in the Blue Mountains. I signed up for a tour of a housing collective over near Lithgow. From memory it was a large block of land with small homes on it, and permacultured gardens with swales and things.

It was an interest group for starting our own collective and buying land to do the same. As I was a sole parent it seemed like a good idea for entering into home ownership with some okayish people. It never got off the ground.

sarahs mum said:

I’m not in awe of Mollison. I get Permaculture..but back when I first read at it there was little new in it for me. I appreciated it. But wasn’t blown away. I never liked how the people who I knew that spruiked it were the ones who had no idea but had paid money to have no idea. somehow the way it was flogged made it feel like AMWAY to me.

I think I live very close to that lined story of the cabin in the Margate hills as the crow flies.. I do think he had to move away to somewhere fertile for the system to work. It was never going to work on that ridge. It worked better on in northern nsw.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.

It is a lifestyle that requires research and effort to do properly

and its not every bodies lifestyle, it requires planning and effort

but for those that like living off the grid and into small self sustaining farms and such, the lifestyle offers natural freedom to grow your own things

bees, chooks, goats, compost, vege gardens, fruit trees, herbs, Earth houses, underground houses, compost toilets, compost water heating, solar power and other off grid tricks

Its not every ones life style, cities have supermarkets for convenience

but for people like Bill Mollison, it was society that pushed him into creating that lifestyle, he had a dislike for religion, he had a dislike for GM crops, he had a dislike for societies that wanted too much control over peoples basic rights. so off he went and lived off grid, and having the time, he worked out a design for sustainable agriculture

There is science in sustainability and we need more scientists in sustainability.

I hope the work can continue

CrazyNeutrino said:

sarahs mum said:

I’m not in awe of Mollison. I get Permaculture..but back when I first read at it there was little new in it for me. I appreciated it. But wasn’t blown away. I never liked how the people who I knew that spruiked it were the ones who had no idea but had paid money to have no idea. somehow the way it was flogged made it feel like AMWAY to me.

I think I live very close to that lined story of the cabin in the Margate hills as the crow flies.. I do think he had to move away to somewhere fertile for the system to work. It was never going to work on that ridge. It worked better on in northern nsw.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.

It is a lifestyle that requires research and effort to do properly

and its not every bodies lifestyle, it requires planning and effort

but for those that like living off the grid and into small self sustaining farms and such, the lifestyle offers natural freedom to grow your own things

bees, chooks, goats, compost, vege gardens, fruit trees, herbs, Earth houses, underground houses, compost toilets, compost water heating, solar power and other off grid tricks

Its not every ones life style, cities have supermarkets for convenience

but for people like Bill Mollison, it was society that pushed him into creating that lifestyle, he had a dislike for religion, he had a dislike for GM crops, he had a dislike for societies that wanted too much control over peoples basic rights. so off he went and lived off grid, and having the time, he worked out a design for sustainable agriculture

There is science in sustainability and we need more scientists in sustainability.

I hope the work can continue

but I had grown up making compost and growing veg.I had read Cobbett. I had read Seymour. I had read half a library of borrowed horticulture and agriculture books and I was busy with milk cow, chooks, ducks and pigs..when I picked up Mollison.

sarahs mum said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

sarahs mum said:

I’m not in awe of Mollison. I get Permaculture..but back when I first read at it there was little new in it for me. I appreciated it. But wasn’t blown away. I never liked how the people who I knew that spruiked it were the ones who had no idea but had paid money to have no idea. somehow the way it was flogged made it feel like AMWAY to me.

I think I live very close to that lined story of the cabin in the Margate hills as the crow flies.. I do think he had to move away to somewhere fertile for the system to work. It was never going to work on that ridge. It worked better on in northern nsw.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.

It is a lifestyle that requires research and effort to do properly

and its not every bodies lifestyle, it requires planning and effort

but for those that like living off the grid and into small self sustaining farms and such, the lifestyle offers natural freedom to grow your own things

bees, chooks, goats, compost, vege gardens, fruit trees, herbs, Earth houses, underground houses, compost toilets, compost water heating, solar power and other off grid tricks

Its not every ones life style, cities have supermarkets for convenience

but for people like Bill Mollison, it was society that pushed him into creating that lifestyle, he had a dislike for religion, he had a dislike for GM crops, he had a dislike for societies that wanted too much control over peoples basic rights. so off he went and lived off grid, and having the time, he worked out a design for sustainable agriculture

There is science in sustainability and we need more scientists in sustainability.

I hope the work can continue

but I had grown up making compost and growing veg.I had read Cobbett. I had read Seymour. I had read half a library of borrowed horticulture and agriculture books and I was busy with milk cow, chooks, ducks and pigs..when I picked up Mollison.

It does feel like Amway to me, I think its a legit science that can only get better with more information.

But no, Im not offended, all good.

CrazyNeutrino said:

sarahs mum said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

It is a lifestyle that requires research and effort to do properly

and its not every bodies lifestyle, it requires planning and effort

but for those that like living off the grid and into small self sustaining farms and such, the lifestyle offers natural freedom to grow your own things

bees, chooks, goats, compost, vege gardens, fruit trees, herbs, Earth houses, underground houses, compost toilets, compost water heating, solar power and other off grid tricks

Its not every ones life style, cities have supermarkets for convenience

but for people like Bill Mollison, it was society that pushed him into creating that lifestyle, he had a dislike for religion, he had a dislike for GM crops, he had a dislike for societies that wanted too much control over peoples basic rights. so off he went and lived off grid, and having the time, he worked out a design for sustainable agriculture

There is science in sustainability and we need more scientists in sustainability.

I hope the work can continue

but I had grown up making compost and growing veg.I had read Cobbett. I had read Seymour. I had read half a library of borrowed horticulture and agriculture books and I was busy with milk cow, chooks, ducks and pigs..when I picked up Mollison.

It does feel like Amway to me, I think its a legit science that can only get better with more information.

But no, Im not offended, all good.

It does not feel like Amway to me, I think its a legit science that can only get better with more information.

But no, Im not offended, all good.

Fixed

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

No. That could not be the case. Ever.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Every farming method has long term efficiency in mind. Farmers don’t think short term, not like city dwellers, they can’t.

That’s why they invented what their wives called, “recreational tractor driving”.

sarahs mum said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

sarahs mum said:

I’m not in awe of Mollison. I get Permaculture..but back when I first read at it there was little new in it for me. I appreciated it. But wasn’t blown away. I never liked how the people who I knew that spruiked it were the ones who had no idea but had paid money to have no idea. somehow the way it was flogged made it feel like AMWAY to me.

I think I live very close to that lined story of the cabin in the Margate hills as the crow flies.. I do think he had to move away to somewhere fertile for the system to work. It was never going to work on that ridge. It worked better on in northern nsw.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.

It is a lifestyle that requires research and effort to do properly

and its not every bodies lifestyle, it requires planning and effort

but for those that like living off the grid and into small self sustaining farms and such, the lifestyle offers natural freedom to grow your own things

bees, chooks, goats, compost, vege gardens, fruit trees, herbs, Earth houses, underground houses, compost toilets, compost water heating, solar power and other off grid tricks

Its not every ones life style, cities have supermarkets for convenience

but for people like Bill Mollison, it was society that pushed him into creating that lifestyle, he had a dislike for religion, he had a dislike for GM crops, he had a dislike for societies that wanted too much control over peoples basic rights. so off he went and lived off grid, and having the time, he worked out a design for sustainable agriculture

There is science in sustainability and we need more scientists in sustainability.

I hope the work can continue

but I had grown up making compost and growing veg.I had read Cobbett. I had read Seymour. I had read half a library of borrowed horticulture and agriculture books and I was busy with milk cow, chooks, ducks and pigs..when I picked up Mollison.

Yeah, me too. Esther Deane was more of a hero for me.

However, I liked Mollison. Wasn’t too sure about Holmgren and the rest.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Could it be because “traditional farming methods” do not consider long term (or in fact anything other than very short term) costs in their assessment of efficiency?

No. That could not be the case. Ever.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Every farming method has long term efficiency in mind. Farmers don’t think short term, not like city dwellers, they can’t.

Perhaps I should clarify why I think this is nonsense.

Farmers focus on minimising their direct short term costs (5 year range), with some consideration for medium term (50 year), and next to no consideration for longer term (> 100 year). In this they are just like evil city dwellers.

What they don’t do (in general), and in fact can’t afford to do, is minimise medium to long term distributed costs, such as those due to climate change or depletion of limited resources. In this they are just like evil city dwellers.

And this will continue until these long term costs are charged back to the people doing the things that result in the costs.

What we need is some sort of tax on CO2 emissions, and some sort of tax on mining, amongst other things.

I wonder why no-one has thought of that.

Meanwhile, in Cuba, they just went ahead and did it out of necessity:

https://www.architectural-review.com/archive/cubas-urban-farming-revolution-how-to-create-self-sufficient-cities/8660204.article

There are further references at the bottom of the article if you want to read more.

Cuba does not run on permaculture

dv said:

Cuba does not run on permaculture

The urban gardens are very close.

buffy said:

Meanwhile, in Cuba, they just went ahead and did it out of necessity:

https://www.architectural-review.com/archive/cubas-urban-farming-revolution-how-to-create-self-sufficient-cities/8660204.article

There are further references at the bottom of the article if you want to read more.

That was an interesting read, thanks.

buffy said:

dv said:

Cuba does not run on permaculture

The urban gardens are very close.

DV has no idea of what permaculture is. He’s simply biased, that’s all.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Every farming method has long term efficiency in mind. Farmers don’t think short term, not like city dwellers, they can’t.

Perhaps I should clarify why I think this is nonsense.

Farmers focus on minimising their direct short term costs (5 year range), with some consideration for medium term (50 year), and next to no consideration for longer term (> 100 year). In this they are just like evil city dwellers.

What they don’t do (in general), and in fact can’t afford to do, is minimise medium to long term distributed costs, such as those due to climate change or depletion of limited resources. In this they are just like evil city dwellers.

And this will continue until these long term costs are charged back to the people doing the things that result in the costs.

What we need is some sort of tax on CO2 emissions, and some sort of tax on mining, amongst other things.

I wonder why no-one has thought of that.

:)

roughbarked said:

buffy said:

dv said:

Cuba does not run on permaculture

The urban gardens are very close.

DV has no idea of what permaculture is. He’s simply biased, that’s all.

I don’t know whether I am biased, but I know what permaculture is.

dv said:

roughbarked said:

buffy said:

The urban gardens are very close.

DV has no idea of what permaculture is. He’s simply biased, that’s all.

I don’t know whether I am biased, but I know what permaculture is.

You seem to be missing the p[oint though so I have grave doubts.

For me, the point is that permaculture does not provide a workable model for sustainable agriculture in the 21st century.

dv said:

For me, the point is that permaculture does not provide a workable model for sustainable agriculture in the 21st century.

Agriculture doesn’t.

roughbarked said:

dv said:

For me, the point is that permaculture does not provide a workable model for sustainable agriculture in the 21st century.

Agriculture doesn’t.

Fair rejoinder

dv said:

roughbarked said:

dv said:

For me, the point is that permaculture does not provide a workable model for sustainable agriculture in the 21st century.

Agriculture doesn’t.

Fair rejoinder

Anyway. Bill Mollison never wanted anything to do with agriculture.

roughbarked said:

dv said:

roughbarked said:

Agriculture doesn’t.

Fair rejoinder

Anyway. Bill Mollison never wanted anything to do with agriculture.

you mean flat earth farming ripping out all the trees, no I don’t think he would be a fan of that

CrazyNeutrino said:

roughbarked said:

dv said:

Fair rejoinder

Anyway. Bill Mollison never wanted anything to do with agriculture.

you mean flat earth farming ripping out all the trees, no I don’t think he would be a fan of that

That’s correct. Urban farming was more the go for permaculture. So, Cuba does use permaculture.

CrazyNeutrino said:

yes woodchips

making your own would be cheaper

than buying woodchips per tonne

If you calculate the cost of a suitable woodchipper plus the maintenance and running costs and the cost of keeping yourself safe from harm while you operate the supply of wood to the chipper and the chipper itself whilst also moving all the chips to the compost heap, maybe it will not seem so expensive to find someone to back a truck up for you.

Again though utilising avsailable materials is a part of permaculture design, chipping forests isn’t.

buffy said:

Meanwhile, in Cuba, they just went ahead and did it out of necessity:

https://www.architectural-review.com/archive/cubas-urban-farming-revolution-how-to-create-self-sufficient-cities/8660204.article

There are further references at the bottom of the article if you want to read more.

The entire thread behind everything Bill Mollison pondered and put into his books and videos was exactly that. “The necessity is upon us”. No, not Cuba. Us. Right from the start he stated that if we didn’t do the wake up call now, then we would be in the postion of having missed the boat. In Grave Danger of Falling Food

Thankfully, because he was Australian and spoke Australian he reached Australians first.
I’m often secretly satisfied when I see farmers sons and daughters upon taking their role in farm management are continually changing the approach to running the farm away from treating the farm like an open cut mine and convincing their parents it is necessary for the family business and the longevity of the lifeblood of the business, the farm itself. To be more wholistic and plan permanence about the management and culture. To our childrens children.

He travelled the world giving more practical help to impoverished and starving human cultures.

As I stated early on in this thread, his videos are worth watching. They certainly make more sense than most of what has been recorded on any media. He takes what is otherwise dire news, turns it into creative construction for our salvation and adds his own twist of wry humour. Far from what many may descry, none of what he thought or did was without science. None of it was with any religious fervour but always with careful consideration of the known science.

There was never any such thing as hippy nonsense though there are so many people willing to perpetuate the myth.

The statement about universities and forests related to the fact that the greatest university was the forest and here we are thinking we are practicing science by destroying our only one.

“Permaculture is a connecting system between the disciplines” ~ Bill Mollison.

I’m often secretly satisfied when I see farmers sons and daughters upon taking their role in farm management are continually changing the approach to running the farm away from treating the farm like an open cut mine and convincing their parents it is necessary for the family business and the longevity of the lifeblood of the business, the farm itself. To be more wholistic and plan permanence about the management and culture.

gotta love agricultural science.

ChrispenEvan said:

I’m often secretly satisfied when I see farmers sons and daughters upon taking their role in farm management are continually changing the approach to running the farm away from treating the farm like an open cut mine and convincing their parents it is necessary for the family business and the longevity of the lifeblood of the business, the farm itself. To be more wholistic and plan permanence about the management and culture.

gotta love agricultural science.

There’s a fine line between pleasure and pain.There’s also a problem because many families have a number of sons and they all need their own farm or the farms have to continually get bigger. Which self defeats itself in the long run. Intensified farming is the more permanent solution.