is it in any sense alive?

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

Of course it is.

roughbarked said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

Of course it is.

A non viable seed is that way because it is dead.

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

This is not a really useful question. Basically this would be a discussion about what the word “alive” means and wouldn’t tell us anything about seeds.

dv said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

This is not a really useful question. Basically this would be a discussion about what the word “alive” means and wouldn’t tell us anything about seeds.

basically a seed is the contracted form of expansion.

dv said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

This is not a really useful question. Basically this would be a discussion about what the word “alive” means and wouldn’t tell us anything about seeds.

dunno ‘bout that

call it a dormant intermediate form of a replicator

could be half-interesting in considering abiogenesis and replicators that don’t qualify as organisms.

A seed is part of the life cycle of an organism, so in that sense a viable seed is “alive”.

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

Yes. of course it’s alive.

But I suspect you’re thinking about the definition of “dead”. A seed would be dead when all the individual cells required for making an adult plant are dead. Cell death can involve physical rupture or chemical changes that stop growth or reproduction.

So the question about life and death boils down to:
“If enough cells within the seed are alive, but the seed cannot be revived, then is the seed alive or dead?”

The question isn’t as difficult to answer as it may look at first, because of the time factor. If the attempted reviving fo the seed fails then the it’s the revival attempt that kills it. It was alive until the attempt was made to revive it.

I want to bring in here a note about the William James Beal Germination Experiment. In 1879, American botanist William James Beal loaded up 20 bottles with a mix of sand and seeds from a variety of plants. He then buried the bottles neck-down to prevent water from entering the mix. The point of Beal’s experiment? To determine whether seeds would still sprout after remaining dormant for a very long time. Every five years at first (but now every 20 years), one of the bottles is dug up by researchers and the seeds are planted to see if anything grows. In 2000, two of the 21 plant species in the bottle sprouted. The next bottle will be unearthed in 2020, with the experiment slated to be finished in 2100.

The year 2000 (120 year) experiment produced germination of 23 Verbascum blattaria, 2 Verbascum sp. (possibly a hybrid between V. blattaria and V. thapsus), and 1 Malva rotundifolia. It is interesting to note that after just 5 years of burial only one Malva rotundifolia germinated, so the proportion of germinating seeds of Malva has not dropped off. Slightly more Verbascum seeds germinated after 120 years than after 100 years (21 seedlings). Of importance for this thread is that in there was a time in the study when no Malva seeds germinated, the seeds were thought to be non-viable until better germination techniques were developed later. Or to put it another way, just because seeds are believed to be non-viable doesn’t mean that they are dead, it could simply be that better germination techniques are needed.

Note to Buffy. The Beal Germination Experiment has so far lasted 120 years. Your (our) myopia longitudinal experiment has so far lasted 60 years. You’re doing remarkably well.

Bubblecar said:

A seed is a vital,/font> part of the life cycle of an organism, so in that sense a viable seed is “alive”.

Correct. The only time this isn’t so is when the seed is dead and therefore unviable.

Bubblecar said:

A seed is part of the life cycle of an organism, so in that sense a viable seed is “alive”.

Good examples are the seeds of grasses that wake up and start walking around following where the water goes until they find a suitable spot and then drill themselves into the moist soil.

The dead grass seeds just blow around in the wind.

So, how do you calculate the age of a plant?

mollwollfumble said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

Yes. of course it’s alive.

But I suspect you’re thinking about the definition of “dead”. A seed would be dead when all the individual cells required for making an adult plant are dead. Cell death can involve physical rupture or chemical changes that stop growth or reproduction.

So the question about life and death boils down to:
“If enough cells within the seed are alive, but the seed cannot be revived, then is the seed alive or dead?”

The question isn’t as difficult to answer as it may look at first, because of the time factor. If the attempted reviving fo the seed fails then the it’s the revival attempt that kills it. It was alive until the attempt was made to revive it.

I want to bring in here a note about the William James Beal Germination Experiment. In 1879, American botanist William James Beal loaded up 20 bottles with a mix of sand and seeds from a variety of plants. He then buried the bottles neck-down to prevent water from entering the mix. The point of Beal’s experiment? To determine whether seeds would still sprout after remaining dormant for a very long time. Every five years at first (but now every 20 years), one of the bottles is dug up by researchers and the seeds are planted to see if anything grows. In 2000, two of the 21 plant species in the bottle sprouted. The next bottle will be unearthed in 2020, with the experiment slated to be finished in 2100.

The year 2000 (120 year) experiment produced germination of 23 Verbascum blattaria, 2 Verbascum sp. (possibly a hybrid between V. blattaria and V. thapsus), and 1 Malva rotundifolia. It is interesting to note that after just 5 years of burial only one Malva rotundifolia germinated, so the proportion of germinating seeds of Malva has not dropped off. Slightly more Verbascum seeds germinated after 120 years than after 100 years (21 seedlings). Of importance for this thread is that in there was a time in the study when no Malva seeds germinated, the seeds were thought to be non-viable until better germination techniques were developed later. Or to put it another way, just because seeds are believed to be non-viable doesn’t mean that they are dead, it could simply be that better germination techniques are needed.

Note to Buffy. The Beal Germination Experiment has so far lasted 120 years. Your (our) myopia longitudinal experiment has so far lasted 60 years. You’re doing remarkably well.

They found watermelon seeds in Egyptian tombs that were able to be germinated.

A seed may be like a human body. if a single vital organ is either dead or not functioning then waking up is practically impossible.

mollwollfumble said:

So, how do you calculate the age of a plant?

Evidence.

> the seeds of grasses that wake up and start walking around following where the water goes until they find a suitable spot and then drill themselves into the moist soil.

Um, what?

Do you have a reference for that?

mollwollfumble said:

> the seeds of grasses that wake up and start walking around following where the water goes until they find a suitable spot and then drill themselves into the moist soil.

Um, what?

Do you have a reference for that?

Go out and pick some wild oats or wiregrass or many grass seeds(they are rie about now). Put them on a bit of soil without obstacles like other plants and put a drop of water on the seed. Observe. Put more drops of water, observe.

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

So, how do you calculate the age of a plant?

Evidence.

I mean, from the fertilisation of the ovum, encapsulation, or seed dispersal?
For plants that reproduce and are propagated asexually it becomes an even more ticklish problem.

> Beal

Is Verbascum immortal?

dv said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

This is not a really useful question. Basically this would be a discussion about what the word “alive” means and wouldn’t tell us anything about seeds.

I disagree.

Having some agreement about what the word “alive” means seems to me to be a useful outcome to a discussion.

I agree with roughbarked that viable seeds are alive, and non-viable seeds are not.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

This is not a really useful question. Basically this would be a discussion about what the word “alive” means and wouldn’t tell us anything about seeds.

I disagree.

Having some agreement about what the word “alive” means seems to me to be a useful outcome to a discussion.

I agree with roughbarked that viable seeds are alive, and non-viable seeds are not.

It may be contracted or compressed life capsule but it is coiled for expansion with the correct triggers.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

This is not a really useful question. Basically this would be a discussion about what the word “alive” means and wouldn’t tell us anything about seeds.

I disagree.

Having some agreement about what the word “alive” means seems to me to be a useful outcome to a discussion.

I agree with roughbarked that viable seeds are alive, and non-viable seeds are not.

It may be contracted or compressed life capsule but it is coiled for expansion with the correct triggers.

I would add that it depends on the context of the discussion as well.

As it does for any discussion of fuzzy boundaries.

FMD it’s fricken’ junkie day and it’s started early… I hate junkie day.

poikilotherm said:

FMD it’s fricken’ junkie day and it’s started early… I hate junkie day.

dole day?

gather there’s no active self-maintenance functions (homeostasis), and no metabolic activity.

poikilotherm said:

FMD it’s fricken’ junkie day and it’s started early… I hate junkie day.

You need a special exit door for druggies so the police paddy wagon can back up to it and take them away.

This thread made me think of seed banks, has lots of interesting information part of which is below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_bank

Seeds are living creatures and keeping them viable over the long term requires adjusting storage moisture and temperature appropriately. As they mature on the mother plant, many seeds attain an innate ability to survive drying. Survival of these so-called ‘orthodox’ seeds can be extended by dry, low temperature storage. The level of dryness and coldness depends mostly on the longevity that is required and the investment in infrastructure that is affordable. Practical guidelines from a US scientist in the 1950s and 1960s, James Harrington, are known as ‘Thumb Rules.’ The ‘Hundreds Rule’ guides that the sum of relative humidity and temperature (in Fahrenheit) should be less than 100 for the sample to survive 5 years. Another rule is that reduction of water content by 1% or temperature by 10 degrees Fahrenheit will double the seed life span. Research from the 1990s showed that there is a limit to the beneficial effect of drying or cooling, so it must not be overdone.

Understanding the effect of water content and temperature on seed longevity, the Food and Agriculture division of the United Nations and a consultancy group called Bioversity International developed a set of standards for international seed banks to preserve seed longevity. The document advocates drying seeds to about 20% relative humidity, sealing seeds in high quality moisture-proof containers, and storing seeds at -20 degrees Celsius. These conditions are frequently referred to as ‘conventional’ storage protocols. Seeds from our most important species – corn, wheat, rice, soybean, pea, tomato, broccoli, melon, sunflower, etc.—can be stored in this way. However, there are many species that produce seeds that do not survive the drying or low temperature of conventional storage protocols. These species must be stored cryogenically. Seeds of citrus, coffee, avocado, cocoa, coconut, papaya, oak, walnut and willow are a few examples of species that should be preserved cryogenically.

Like everything, seeds eventually degrade with time. It is hard to predict when seeds lose viability and so most reputable seed banks monitor germination potential during storage. When seed germination percentage decreases below a prescribed amount, the seeds need to be replanted and fresh seeds collected for another round of long-term storage.

Reminds me of that shrimp article where eggs can dry out and stay that way for years then when there are rains, out pop shrimps.

mollwollfumble said:

So, how do you calculate the age of a plant?

Count the candles on its birthday cake?

bob(from black rock) said:

mollwollfumble said:

So, how do you calculate the age of a plant?

Count the candles on its birthday cake?

Or similar? Eg. Length of the terminal sections of its chromosome.

Here’s something about viable seeds that I didn’t know. I found it looking up seed banks.

“Seed viability is determined over three consecutive days with the tetrazolium chloride staining technique (known as ‘the TZ test’). Living seed tissue will stain red and these staining patterns help to determine percentage seed viability.”

How does that work and how reliable is it?

Also from the web:

“Drying is critical to ensuring long-term seed viability. Upon arrival at the ANBG, all seed collections are placed in the Seed Bank drying room which is at 15°C and 15% relative humidity. Prior to banking at -21°C, seed moisture content is checked using a Rotronics Hygropalm instrument and must be between 5 and 7%.” “ For long-term storage of conservation collections, seeds at 3 – 7 % moisture content can be safely stored in the ANBG Seed Bank freezers at -21°C”.

“Mature, viable seeds that do not germinate under seemingly favourable germination conditions (that is, with water, oxygen and appropriate temperatures) may be exhibiting seed dormancy. The viability of a collection can be grossly underestimated if seed dormancy goes undetected. In cases of suspected dormancy, seed viability is assessed using the TZ test, and a series of experiments are carried out in order to uncover effective dormancy alleviating treatments.”

mollwollfumble said:

bob(from black rock) said:

mollwollfumble said:

So, how do you calculate the age of a plant?

Count the candles on its birthday cake?

Or similar? Eg. Length of the terminal sections of its chromosome.

Here’s something about viable seeds that I didn’t know. I found it looking up seed banks.

“Seed viability is determined over three consecutive days with the tetrazolium chloride staining technique (known as ‘the TZ test’). Living seed tissue will stain red and these staining patterns help to determine percentage seed viability.”

How does that work and how reliable is it?

Also from the web:

“Drying is critical to ensuring long-term seed viability. Upon arrival at the ANBG, all seed collections are placed in the Seed Bank drying room which is at 15°C and 15% relative humidity. Prior to banking at -21°C, seed moisture content is checked using a Rotronics Hygropalm instrument and must be between 5 and 7%.” “ For long-term storage of conservation collections, seeds at 3 – 7 % moisture content can be safely stored in the ANBG Seed Bank freezers at -21°C”.

“Mature, viable seeds that do not germinate under seemingly favourable germination conditions (that is, with water, oxygen and appropriate temperatures) may be exhibiting seed dormancy. The viability of a collection can be grossly underestimated if seed dormancy goes undetected. In cases of suspected dormancy, seed viability is assessed using the TZ test, and a series of experiments are carried out in order to uncover effective dormancy alleviating treatments.”

The viability of some seed is very short, less than 12 months. I wonder if their life could be extended sufficiently to warrant the saving of them.

PermeateFree said:

The viability of some seed is very short, less than 12 months. I wonder if their life could be extended sufficiently to warrant the saving of them.

Hold that thought. If all these seeds only remain viable for 7 years at the longest, is there much point in saving any but a scant few species?

Back down to a more pleasant max of 20 tomorrow, with a min of 5 tomorrow night.

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

The viability of some seed is very short, less than 12 months. I wonder if their life could be extended sufficiently to warrant the saving of them.

Hold that thought. If all these seeds only remain viable for 7 years at the longest, is there much point in saving any but a scant few species?

Well that confirms that some seeds have a short lifespan, but would the methods of storage that are now used, extend them much further? As you indicate, unless they can, their storage and usefulness does not seem to be very secure.

PermeateFree said:

Well that confirms that some seeds have a short lifespan, but would the methods of storage that are now used, extend them much further? As you indicate, unless they can, their storage and usefulness does not seem to be very secure.

I found this. Here are some plants that have survived with no loss of viability in a seed bank (Madrid) for 39 years.

Alyssoides utriculata
Alyssum saxatile
Barbarea intermedia
Brassica napus
Coincya rupestris
Erucastrum abyssinicum
Erysimum cheiri
Erysimum odoratum
Erysimum repandum
Isatis tinctoria
Matthiola incana
Matthiola sinuata
etc. 37 species. Reference

These are of the cabbage family, a family of plants that includes broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, kale, collards, turnip, Chinese cabbage, rapeseed, common radish, horseradish, stock and thale cress. 39 years in a seed bank is much better than the normal survival of plant seeds in the cabbage family, which is typically 3-5 years.

PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

The viability of some seed is very short, less than 12 months. I wonder if their life could be extended sufficiently to warrant the saving of them.

Hold that thought. If all these seeds only remain viable for 7 years at the longest, is there much point in saving any but a scant few species?

Well that confirms that some seeds have a short lifespan, but would the methods of storage that are now used, extend them much further? As you indicate, unless they can, their storage and usefulness does not seem to be very secure.

Seed storage is an issue because of the short lived seeds. If for example any catastrophe occurred, we could completely run out of such seeds particularly if they no longer exist in the wild. Of course with short lived seed we need to keep planting them to get more but we also need to save some as insurance against total loss.

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

It has the potential to be. Or is a suspended form of life.

According to Wikipedia:

It is a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life. This is partially because life is a process, not a substance.

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, most current definitions in biology are descriptive. Life is considered a characteristic of something that exhibits all or most of the following traits:

1. Homeostasis: Seeds… Not in the conventional sense

2. Organization: Seeds… Yes

3. Metabolism: Seeds… Yes. Extremely slowly

4. Growth: Seeds… No

5. Adaptation: Seeds… Potentially

6. Response to stimuli: Seeds… Not in the conventional sense

7. Reproduction: Seeds… Potentially

Ian said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

It has the potential to be. Or is a suspended form of life.

According to Wikipedia:

It is a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life. This is partially because life is a process, not a substance.

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, most current definitions in biology are descriptive. Life is considered a characteristic of something that exhibits all or most of the following traits:

1. Homeostasis: Seeds… Not in the conventional sense

2. Organization: Seeds… Yes

3. Metabolism: Seeds… Yes. Extremely slowly

4. Growth: Seeds… No

5. Adaptation: Seeds… Potentially

6. Response to stimuli: Seeds… Not in the conventional sense

7. Reproduction: Seeds… Potentially

> This is partially because life is a process, not a substance.

Disagree. A process is a verb, a substance is a noun. It’s no harder to define a verb than a noun.

> 6. Response to stimuli: Seeds…

That’s the major one, isn’t it. Viable seeds respond primarily to water, but also to tetrazolium, food, light, heat, scarification, etc.

Here we go. Dormant viable seeds usually react to one of thje following:

dry after-ripening (warm, dry storage)
stratification (cold/warm, wet storage)
application of smoked water
application of gibberellic acid (GA3)
application of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
seed coat scarification (chipping or removal)
burying the seed in soil.

In my Facebook feed the other day was the story of a Russian family fleeing persecution went further and further into the forests till they lost all contact, they didn’t even know about the Second World War. They noticed satellites though because stars had never done that before.

It was a rough existence, they had a couple of bad seasons and on the last the entire rye crop less one shoot was killed by frost. They built a fence around that single seedling and watched over it night and day to keep it safe from mice. From that single rye they got 18 grains, and from that they started to regrow their crops.

They were contacted by prospectors, the thing they most desired initially was salt.

mollwollfumble said:

Ian said:

transition said:

is it in any sense alive?

It has the potential to be. Or is a suspended form of life.

According to Wikipedia:

It is a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life. This is partially because life is a process, not a substance.

Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, most current definitions in biology are descriptive. Life is considered a characteristic of something that exhibits all or most of the following traits:

1. Homeostasis: Seeds… Not in the conventional sense

2. Organization: Seeds… Yes

3. Metabolism: Seeds… Yes. Extremely slowly

4. Growth: Seeds… No

5. Adaptation: Seeds… Potentially

6. Response to stimuli: Seeds… Not in the conventional sense

7. Reproduction: Seeds… Potentially

> This is partially because life is a process, not a substance.

Disagree. A process is a verb, a substance is a noun. It’s no harder to define a verb than a noun.

> 6. Response to stimuli: Seeds…

That’s the major one, isn’t it. Viable seeds respond primarily to water, but also to tetrazolium, food, light, heat, scarification, etc.

As encapsulated life, seeds are designed to respond to the stimuli required for growth of the whole plant. As we have likely all discovered, good seed gets wasted if the conditions are not up to scratch. The seed has a mind. It might be small and limited but it knows when to wake up when not to and when dying is a safer option.

mollwollfumble said:

Here we go. Dormant viable seeds usually react to one of thje following:

dry after-ripening (warm, dry storage)
stratification (cold/warm, wet storage)
application of smoked water
application of gibberellic acid (GA3)
application of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
seed coat scarification (chipping or removal)
burying the seed in soil.

Apart from simply, soaking rains or simulation thereof.

> This is partially because life is a process, not a substance.

Disagree. A process is a verb, a substance is a noun.

———

Disagree with your disagreement. “process” can be a noun or a verb.. you’ve used it as a noun…

process

noun
1.
a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

————

> It’s no harder to define a verb than a noun.

That’s irrelevant. It can harder define one noun than another..

Consider the definition of “rain water” versus the definition of “rain”.

> 6. Response to stimuli: Seeds…

That’s the major one, isn’t it. Viable seeds respond primarily to water, but also to tetrazolium, food, light, heat, scarification, etc

>>As encapsulated life, seeds are designed to respond to the stimuli required for growth of the whole plant.

——-

Yes, but I was looking at time to respond, from 1 day to 32,000 years (Silene stenophylla), in comparison to the “normal” times we’d be looking for… microseconds to a day maybe…

“A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.”

Seed viability would also be something quite interesting to test on somewhere like Mars.
Would they grow if we supplied everything they required.

Cymek said:

Seed viability would also be something quite interesting to test on somewhere like Mars.
Would they grow if we supplied everything they required.

Yeah. Worked for The Martian.

Cymek said:

Seed viability would also be something quite interesting to test on somewhere like Mars.
Would they grow if we supplied everything they required.

It’s been tested on a simulation of Mars sitting on the side of the International Space Station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXPOSE

Cymek said:

Seed viability would also be something quite interesting to test on somewhere like Mars.
Would they grow if we supplied everything they required.

The temperatures would have to be controlled in closed environments. The air quality and light the same as all are far from earth standards.

If careful dehydration can put a seed into a dormant state, why can’t it work with a mammal?

mollwollfumble said:

If careful dehydration can put a seed into a dormant state, why can’t it work with a mammal?

Change that statement to; why can’t it be done with mammal seed?

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

If careful dehydration can put a seed into a dormant state, why can’t it work with a mammal?

Change that statement to; why can’t it be done with mammal seed?

OK. But that’s probably already been done.